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Old 08-08-2011, 10:38 AM   #226
TomPiltoff
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Default Re: So what DIDN'T we like?

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More than this guy?



Yes, Hitler killed 1000% more real people than Darth Vader. Don't be an idiot.

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or this guy?


Massive face_palm at any comparison of Bush and Hitler.

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I grew up with at least one of those toys and I came out okay
Well again, neither Darth Vader nor George Bush is the equivalent of a Nazi so that's meaningless.

But again, I'm responding to your 'I don't get the big deal' comment. I wouldn't have a problem with a Nazi figure, but I'm not going to pretend to not understand the argument of people who would.

Who are you to tell a Jewish parent their concern is misplaced for toys being sold featuring characters that could have put their parents in an oven?

And I really doubt you 'grew up' with the Bush figure since it came out in, what, 2003?

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I learned the value of good vs. evil
From your action figures? Where were your parents?

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The absence of Nazis in this film really downplayed the most important event in my country's history, and even if you are an angry person who hates Nazis, how can you sit there and tell me you won't get a cathartic thrill seeing many of them decimated by Captain America?
You're preaching to the choir here. I would have loved if Cap had been up against Adolf Hitler and the Nazi Party rather than Hydra.

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Yea I wanted to see a Nazi rape fest, instead we get this crap. There is no better time to remind the world of all we helped to do to ensure freedom (before the Reagan/Nixon admin) until now.
Actually, yes. There are so many better times to learn about the real, horrific crimes of the Nazis than the Captain America movie.

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My family members who served in that war read Captain America comics too, because Cap and many other superheroes were detrimental in keeping their morale, as not only did they have to fight Nazis, they had to worry about getting lynched when they returned home.
Do you know what detrimental means?


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Old 08-08-2011, 11:03 AM   #227
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Default Re: So what DIDN'T we like?

The only thing I can nitpick right now is just Bucky's parts. He didn't get enough screen time as I would like.

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Old 08-08-2011, 04:23 PM   #228
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Default Re: So what DIDN'T we like?

Bucky wasn't interesting. I think some of the musical numbers went on too long.

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Old 08-08-2011, 07:26 PM   #229
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Default Re: So what DIDN'T we like?

TomPiltoff, be more respectful toward people with opposing viewpoints as you. ObakeTora, keep your cool in discussions and come to me, as opposed to resorting to flaming.

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Old 08-08-2011, 07:29 PM   #230
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Ah yes, both sides being equal.

He made blanket accusations about the Jews and called me a racist.

I told him not to be an idiot.

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Old 08-08-2011, 07:32 PM   #231
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Which is why I infracted him and not you. But, your tone and posting wasn't exactly innocent in the matter, either. Hence the warning.

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Old 08-08-2011, 10:54 PM   #232
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Default Re: So what DIDN'T we like?

The Howling Commandos were very lightweight. Their names were never even said on screen.

Bucky could have been better fleshed out.

The end of the squad rescue by Cap was awkward.

I think the last two parts could have been helped by one change, Cap confronts Skull/Zola before finding Bucky. A fading Bucky barely makes out the image of Cap approaching him before falling unconscious. Cap carries Bucky out of the explosion. Then we could have had a brief character scene with Bucky and Cap in the infirmary after everyone returns to base where Cap reveals he's Steve to Bucky, instead of the awkward reveal in the midst of the escape.

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Old 08-13-2011, 12:35 PM   #233
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i wished the movie had cap tackle more on the ww2 events. never really understood why they tried to veer away from that since its part of the character itself. was thinking of a scene where someone from washington would send a direct order thru tommy lee jones that if their mission in neutralizing red skull would be successful, cap would be immediately be asked to lead an invading force in europe against the german army itself. even just a bit mention of cap having the possibility of directly being involved in the real war is enough..

but nevertheless, im still one of those who immensely enjoyed the movie as it is..

if its not too much to ask (..or perhaps its quite late to ask this), can someone explain to me why the movie avoided the nazi's theme as much as possible?

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Old 09-05-2011, 04:55 AM   #234
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My complaints are like most others on the board.

1. The Howling Commandos weren't in it long enough and really if you didn't know them from the comics you wouldn't know their names in the movie.
2. Too much of the USO Captain America.
3. Not enough Nazi's too much HYDRA.
4. Not enough Bucky.
5. That he won't get another sequel before the Avengers movie comes out.

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Old 09-08-2011, 11:59 AM   #235
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Default Re: So what DIDN'T we like?

Like almost everyone else my main gripe is that there wasn't enough Bucky.

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Old 09-08-2011, 03:38 PM   #236
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Default Re: So what DIDN'T we like?



is this real? i saw it in my dreams/nightmares with a binladen action figure as well...

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Old 09-08-2011, 03:41 PM   #237
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they could have cut the sequences from his appearence as a mascott and put some more howling commando scenes in it instead...but they told almost everything in this movie i think...for all others read some comic books...hmmmm.....(as if it this was about a biography)

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Old 10-17-2011, 01:13 AM   #238
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Default Re: So what DIDN'T we like?

was anyone else really disappointed we NEVER got to see a frozen Captain America? That was one of the iconic images I was really looking forward too.

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Old 10-17-2011, 02:58 PM   #239
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Default Re: So what DIDN'T we like?

If we're lucky we might see it in flashback in THE AVENGERS.

I think it was deliberately not shown for a reason; the end of the movie is designed to work as a plot twist wrt CAP's fate for the uninitiated. Those people would think when he woke up in the hospital bed that he survived the crash and was rescued leading to standard happy ending; but NO; plot twist he's been asleep in the ice for 70 years. Showing him frozen before would have negated that, although they could have shown him frozen in flashback after the twist was revealed.

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Old 10-22-2011, 01:49 AM   #240
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Default Re: So what DIDN'T we like?

Give the film an ending?? No seriously:

Steve Rogers- Unresolved
Red Skull- Unresolved
Peggy Carter- Unresolved.
The Howling Commandos - No character development, not story importance. Why were they even there beyond fanboy indulgance?

The only character they resolved was Bucky.

I know this film was an Avengers trailer - but that's still no excuse for such a clumsy ending.

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Old 10-30-2011, 01:55 AM   #241
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This film suffers from a common problem with superhero films: a mediocre third act. It starts with the montage sequence, which was both short and extremely fast-paced - like they felt pressed for time and just had to blow through it all.

In doing that, Red Skull and HYDRA lost some credibility in my eyes. Despite the fact that The Skull possessed bombs fueled by an other-wordly device, I really didn't find him all that threatening by the third act. Captain America and his boys were blowing up his factories and knocking his soldiers about with relative ease. Afterward, Red Skull shows up at each destroyed facility stomping his feet and throwing tantrums. This is only made worse when Captain America and the Colonel's troops were able to infiltrate his main base (HIS MAIN BASE) like it was a casual walk in the park.

This guy was supposed to be a ruthless and cunning mastermind. But by the time we get to the third act, HYDRA seems like nothing more than a collective group of bumbling morons - making Red Skull look both incompetent as a leader, and ineffective as a truly believable worldwide threat. Which, for me, is one of the greatest disappointments of all - seeing how great the character was in the first half of the film.

This film would have benefited greatly from twenty more minutes of development in the third act. Slow down and let the climax of the film breathe a little bit.

As for other gripes:

1) Other than fan service at its most shallow level, I really don't think the inclusion of the Howling Commandos was justified based on how they were presented. Either give them more to work with, or don't bother. I'd say it was nice to see them, but they weren't even given names if my memory serves correctly. They were just kinda there, and they really didn't bring anything to the table other than... just being there. And while he certainly got more to do, I pretty much felt the same way with Bucky. He was just there to advance the plot in places. Nothing more.

2) I wanted Nazis goddamnit (I know. How sick does that sound ?). If you're telling a story that focuses on America's campaign in Europe during WWII, you have to have Nazis. That's all there is to it. Besides, there's something about seeing Red Skull in a Nazi officer uniform that the movie's HYDRA version can't hold a candle to.

That's not to say HYDRA couldn't have a role in the film, but I think it's ridiculous that we saw next to nothing of Nazi Germany in this film. It was America vs. HYDRA. Lame.

Even if it was just one scene, I would've loved to see a Hitler/Red Skull interaction - seeing as how the two shared a fascination with the occult.

3) The ending bugged the hell out of me. First, the shot of the kid with the trash can shield came across as the most random thing in the world. Was that supposed to be the original ending? It felt ridiculously out of place. The first time I saw this film in theaters, I distinctly remember thinking, "What the hell?"

Second, I echo the thoughts of others. The fact that Steve's first question after finding out what happened isn't "Who won?" drives me insane. I get that he cared for Peggy, and the movie still could have ended with the "I had a date" line, but they've GOT to work the war in there, and it's GOT to come first. That's just who the character is. They didn't have to dwell on it. A simple exchange like this would've sufficed:

Steve: Where am I?
Fury: The war's over, Steve. You're home.
Steve: Who won?
Fury: We did.

Then continue the ending as it played out. A crude example, but you get the point.

Speaking of the "I had a date" ending, I found that to be pretty depressing. Which isn't bad, mind you. Though I did find it incredibly odd that they followed that sad moment immediately with an incredibly upbeat song in the closing credits.

4) I didn't like how Howard Stark essentially came across as Tony Stark Lite. I would've liked to see him as the polar opposite of his son.

5) It's a minor nitpick, but the gray chest straps on the suit drive me absolutely crazy. If the straps had been the same shade of blue as the rest of the suit (like the concept art of Captain on the battlefield), and if he had had exposed ears, the suit would've been pretty much perfect.

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Old 10-30-2011, 01:59 AM   #242
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Default Re: So what DIDN'T we like?

Yea, the first hour or so was excellent. The final act was a mess.

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Old 10-30-2011, 02:27 AM   #243
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The worst of this flipless fun-fest was having to hear Peggy Carter's overly fake 40's accent. It was like a buzz-saw sawing through my head, and I beleive the voice actress who played the role of Olive Oil in the early 70's to 80's Popeye cartoon show could have done a better job.

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She failed to show any real chemistry in her acting with Evans and there were times I was thinking "not this %^& again."
Maybe it's because it's 3:27 in the morning, but I laughed for a solid five minutes at this.

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Old 10-30-2011, 07:50 PM   #244
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Considering the propaganda that existed in the 40s regarding what would happen if the Nazis won, if you're standing in Times Square speaking English to a black man 70 years later, I'm pretty sure you'd know who had won already.

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Old 10-30-2011, 10:45 PM   #245
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Considering the propaganda that existed in the 40s regarding what would happen if the Nazis won, if you're standing in Times Square speaking English to a black man 70 years later, I'm pretty sure you'd know who had won already.
true.

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This film suffers from a common problem with superhero films: a mediocre third act. It starts with the montage sequence, which was both short and extremely fast-paced - like they felt pressed for time and just had to blow through it all.

In doing that, Red Skull and HYDRA lost some credibility in my eyes. Despite the fact that The Skull possessed bombs fueled by an other-wordly device, I really didn't find him all that threatening by the third act. Captain America and his boys were blowing up his factories and knocking his soldiers about with relative ease. Afterward, Red Skull shows up at each destroyed facility stomping his feet and throwing tantrums. This is only made worse when Captain America and the Colonel's troops were able to infiltrate his main base (HIS MAIN BASE) like it was a casual walk in the park.

This guy was supposed to be a ruthless and cunning mastermind. But by the time we get to the third act, HYDRA seems like nothing more than a collective group of bumbling morons - making Red Skull look both incompetent as a leader, and ineffective as a truly believable worldwide threat. Which, for me, is one of the greatest disappointments of all - seeing how great the character was in the first half of the film.

This film would have benefited greatly from twenty more minutes of development in the third act. Slow down and let the climax of the film breathe a little bit.
I agree 1000%. This is something that absolutely infuriates me about not only Marvel Studios, but a lot of studios in general: namely, their greedy and slavish insistence that shorter movies lead to more theater screenings. That theory may work well and good for comedies and boom-boom actioners, but it just does not work for the epic genre. When you're trying to portray a superhero film in that epic genre, you simply MUST extend the action sequences and build up suspense. That means longer runtimes, but it also means a more epic feel to the movie. I don't think the Iron Man films or Hulk films necessarily need that epic tone; but Thor and WWII Cap sure as hell did, and the shorter runtimes worked *against* that epic tone. It's the same problem that plagued Green Lantern, which I also view as a failed epic.

I still hope to god that Feige wises up and *at least* gives Avengers the epic runtime it deserves, but I still have this gnawing fear that he hasn't figured out that's why GL failed, and why Thor and Cap didn't live up to the box office standards of Iron Man.

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Old 10-31-2011, 03:59 AM   #246
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Thor and Captain America didn't live up to box office standards of Iron Man because they don't have RDJ. Now, I don't think Thor's 450 million worldwide box office is nothing to sneeze at. For a character that most general audiences didn't have a real clue as to who he is (like me), 450 million is a big number.

Captain America should've done better but I think the film's box office had more to do with fatigue of the genre this summer than the actual film. It's a good film and had it been the only comic book film this summer, it would've done way more. At it is, it was the fourth.

I like the genre a lot but I'll even admit that by the time Captain America came out, I was tired.

As Fiege, he's not going to learn. There are things in Captain America and Thor that need to be address from a character perspective and I have this nagging feeling he'll gloss over them in the Avengers but some how come back to those character issues with the Thor and Captain America sequels...and it's going to be a mistake. Hell, he's already made the mistake by replacing Norton.

As for the complaints about Captain America, some are valid, some are not. At the end of the day though, the film boils down to the last scene between Steve and Peggy. It's a daring final scene for this genre and had Kiege and his yes men didn't force that "present day" ending on the audience to get ready for the Avengers, Captain America would've ended on one of the best notes in the history of the genre. With Steve's sacrifice, the last moments of Peggy grieving over Steve, the Howling Commandos, Howard Stark looking for Steve, the jubilation of the end of the war and what Captain America means as a symbol to the public with the kids imitating Captain America and the Commandos, the ending would've been up there with the ending of the Dark Knight...bar none. It was beautiful.

This film has a lot of heart, a very lovely and sweet love story about two good people. It's visually the best looking Marvel Studios' film by miles. It has a great and natural character arc. I'll take all of those in spades despite the other problems in the film in terms of plot mechanics and the villain (even though Weaving was nice as Red Skull and the make up job was fantastic.).


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Old 10-31-2011, 08:34 AM   #247
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Default Re: So what DIDN'T we like?

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As for the complaints about Captain America, some are valid, some are not. At the end of the day though, the film boils down to the last scene between Steve and Peggy. It's a daring final scene for this genre and had Kiege and his yes men didn't force that "present day" ending on the audience to get ready for the Avengers, Captain America would've ended on one of the best notes in the history of the genre. With Steve's sacrifice, the last moments of Peggy grieving over Steve, the Howling Commandos, Howard Stark looking for Steve, the jubilation of the end of the war and what Captain America means as a symbol to the public with the kids imitating Captain America and the Commandos, the ending would've been up there with the ending of the Dark Knight...bar none. It was beautiful.
I agree that ending the movie in WWII would've been nice 'n' pretty and all, but it's a disservice to the character, to the character's future, and to everyone in the audience who already knows better to pretend that's where the story ends. Au contraire....that's where the story *begins.* And Feige and Johnston damn well knew it, as do *all* of us. It would be condescending at best, totally misleading at worst to *not* reference Cap's return in the modern era.

So I don't buy the modern ending as a "problem" with this movie at all. Total non-issue.

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Old 10-31-2011, 09:45 AM   #248
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I agree that ending the movie in WWII would've been nice 'n' pretty and all, but it's a disservice to the character, to the character's future, and to everyone in the audience who already knows better to pretend that's where the story ends. Au contraire....that's where the story *begins.* And Feige and Johnston damn well knew it, as do *all* of us. It would be condescending at best, totally misleading at worst to *not* reference Cap's return in the modern era.

So I don't buy the modern ending as a "problem" with this movie at all. Total non-issue.
Problem with that is you could've easily presented this ending at the beginning of the Avengers...easily. It wouldn't have ruined Captain America's solo film and it would've been a nice beginning for the Avengers, especially has Fury is putting the team together and realizes he needs a "leader"....

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Old 10-31-2011, 01:06 PM   #249
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The movie should have ended with Steve tearing up after Fury told him that he was frozen for seventy years.

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Old 10-31-2011, 06:16 PM   #250
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Considering the propaganda that existed in the 40s regarding what would happen if the Nazis won, if you're standing in Times Square speaking English to a black man 70 years later, I'm pretty sure you'd know who had won already.
That's Hysterical!!

Fury: "You've ben asleep for 70 years."
Cap: "Who won the war?"
Fury gives his best Samuel L Jackson stare. "You a bein' a smart-ass mutha-*****er? Your Commanding Officer's a n*gga and you wanna know if Adolf's in charge??"

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