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Old 07-26-2011, 08:45 PM   #126
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Default Re: So what DIDN'T we like?

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As limited as the (US) tech was, it was advanced enough to create a super soldier in that day and age, refine and mold the strongest metal probably ever conceived in fiction, develop prototype hover cars...etc Stark and co, had a lot of advanced tech in their deck and more importantly, the means to create more wonderful things to help them do(and find) other wonderful things.


If the Titanic was carrying nukes and terrorists, launched from a then allied occupied base and was brought down en route to the largest city in the free world within minutes and without radio silence, I have a feeling the greatest American Scientists of the day would be able to find it within a few hours. More importantly they would have the urgency too. And even if they couldn't, that much should inform how different the situation in fact was. The 1912 ship went down silent in the night with only flares and the hope that some boats would reach it long after it was in the black water. Survivors were saved and then I'm sure they got around to actually going down for the ship whenever they developed the tech to do so(I'm assuming not the next day). The world of CA had subs that would put batman and robin to shame. Why not send the hydrofoils? Helicopters were around in the 40's, I'd even say the marvel verse had them in abundance) Did peggy just assume it was pointless?



Actually all a level headed Steve would have needed was a two way radio, just about any soldier even one with half the intelligence cap is supposed to have would only be so lucky...a one way radio even, though a passionate goodbye did seem more urgent I suppose.

Never said they could track skulls tech or his bases, but a ship, they were in radio contact with right up until and after it's crash is hardly a hidden hydra base.
Again, you're just not getting it or something, they were dealing with Hydra stuff something Stark had no idea how to work on.

Go to google earth pick a point on the area where roughly the ship landed then soom out and tell me if its a small spot to search.

In 1912 a ship went down 3 times the size of what Caps ship was, there was another ship that came the next morning to rescue the survivors, surely someone would've work something down, like I don't know, coordinates of the sinking or something. So why did it take so long long after many failed attempts to find it in modern times with advanced equipment?

There have been plenty of war ships that have been sunk with about as much firepower as what Skull was carrying? Why have there been no attempts at recovering them?

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Old 07-26-2011, 08:46 PM   #127
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I don't think they needed to explain for 20 minutes why the plane couldn't be found. Suspension of disbelief is good enough here. AKA, I don't care.
It's just so funny .... sitting there watching the events of the entire film and then when it gets to the bomber crashing, somebody going "Wait just a dog gone minute!"

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Old 07-26-2011, 08:47 PM   #128
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What is the point in having a Captain America story if he should have been found immediately after the crash? Suspend your disbelief for once. How are they supposed to know where exactly the bomber crashed in the middle of the Artic? They didn't even know if the bomber crashed on land in the first place. There have plenty of stories of missing airplanes later found, even in modern times. WWII-era American aircraft later found in Greenland, buried under 200 ft. of ice.


As for Skull betraying Hitler. Did Hitler know that Skull betrayed him? Sure, he vaporized some Nazis sent to question him but that's the key word---vaporized. No evidence left. Those generals could have been killed in a bombing raid for all he knows. Suspend your disbelief once again here.

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Old 07-26-2011, 08:49 PM   #129
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Only 2 things I didn't like and I know one just about everyone will disagree with me. For one I didn't like how awful the green screen backgrounds looked. Every scene there was a green screen background you could tell instantly. Even scenes like at Stark Expo you could tell where the stage ended and the green screen began. Secondly, not counting the amazing Star Spangled Man, I didn't like the music too much. I like how the theme and everything sounded like it was from the 40's but his theme started to get annoying towards the end and none of it never really amped me up or had any type of emotional response but thats just me I know a lot of people really liked the music.

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Old 07-26-2011, 08:51 PM   #130
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I would of course liked to see more character development in the movie for the Howling Commandos. I liked them alot but like the Warriors Three, there just wasn't enough time to develop them. One more action sequence would have been enough for me. I would have liked to see Cap and the Commandos fight that giant tank in some epic battle. The movie could have used a bit more polish from the end of the montage to the scene where Captain America was attempting to get drunk. Aside from that, it was perfect. The final action sequence was brilliant in my opinion.

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Old 07-26-2011, 09:03 PM   #131
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Only 2 things I didn't like and I know one just about everyone will disagree with me. For one I didn't like how awful the green screen backgrounds looked. Every scene there was a green screen background you could tell instantly. Even scenes like at Stark Expo you could tell where the stage ended and the green screen began. Secondly, not counting the amazing Star Spangled Man, I didn't like the music too much. I like how the theme and everything sounded like it was from the 40's but his theme started to get annoying towards the end and none of it never really amped me up or had any type of emotional response but thats just me I know a lot of people really liked the music.
I put that in my list (which got buried behind 3 pages of this "Cap could've been found earlier" talk) ......


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I would of course liked to see more character development in the movie for the Howling Commandos. I liked them alot but like the Warriors Three, there just wasn't enough time to develop them. One more action sequence would have been enough for me. I would have liked to see Cap and the Commandos fight that giant tank in some epic battle. The movie could have used a bit more polish from the end of the montage to the scene where Captain America was attempting to get drunk. Aside from that, it was perfect. The final action sequence was brilliant in my opinion.
Still weird to hear this comparison. The Warriors Three had ten times the screen time in Thor compared to the Howling Commandos. They were there in beginning at the coronation, after the coronation, they were with him in Johunteim, they were there in the healing room, they stood before Loki, they devised how they were gonna get Thor back, they were with him on Earth, etc. etc.

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Old 07-26-2011, 09:04 PM   #132
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Default Re: So what DIDN'T we like?

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I don't think they needed to explain for 20 minutes why the plane couldn't be found. Suspension of disbelief is good enough here. AKA, I don't care.
thanks it all makes sense now
I've been on the other side of this discussion enough times know that's not going to get anyone anywhere. If the film is good, it gets a pass. I never once said it ruined the film for me or anyone else. I simply said this one aspect weighs more heavily on the not making sense side of things.

As zany as the 90's take on this plot device was I definitely buy why no one found him all those years, I even buy why no one even looked.

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This conversation is so patently ridiculous it's not even funny. Marvin, give it a rest man. They offered an explanation ..... that's better than no explanation .... and yet that scene seems to have you losing sleep over it. You make a lot of conjecture about what "would have been done" back then and you assume because Stark can create one thing he most certainly can create the other. It's not necessary. The scene did exactly what it was designed to do, effectively in most peoples' eyes.
Who's laughing? They offered an explanation, it's not good enough, you say there's no better one I say that sucks. I only bring up up Starks tenacity to invent in response to this idea of "back then" and the "limited human capacity"

The scene did a fine job of emulating the abhrams scene, I just think it was a double edged sword in this case, one felt by only me I suppose.

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Old 07-26-2011, 09:09 PM   #133
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Still weird to hear this comparison. The Warriors Three had ten times the screen time in Thor compared to the Howling Commandos. They were there in beginning at the coronation, after the coronation, they were with him in Johunteim, they were there in the healing room, they stood before Loki, they devised how they were gonna get Thor back, they were with him on Earth, etc. etc.
That's true but I don't think they really developed these characters much in Thor. There of course wasnt' enough time to devote to backstories for Fandral and Hogun.

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Old 07-26-2011, 09:18 PM   #134
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Again, you're just not getting it or something, they were dealing with Hydra stuff something Stark had no idea how to work on.
work on what exactly? finding the giant ship?
All I said was that Stark had some impressive tech of his own.

Quote:
Go to google earth pick a point on the area where roughly the ship landed then soom out and tell me if its a small spot to search.
How far do you want me to zoom in?

Quote:
In 1912 a ship went down 3 times the size of what Caps ship was, there was another ship that came the next morning to rescue the survivors, surely someone would've work something down, like I don't know, coordinates of the sinking or something. So why did it take so long long after many failed attempts to find it in modern times with advanced equipment?
This keeps coming up so I'm going to give it a shot.
One, there was no urgency(in the same respect of course)
Two, we sure has hell found the location pretty quick didn't we?
Three, yes we found the spot but we didn't have the subs(tech) to get down during those days. The first subs didn't arrive till after the first world war if I'm up on my history.
Four, years later when people did start "urgently searching" the ship was nothing but debris on the ocean floor at the mercy of tides and currents.
Five, year later when people did start searching, they were working from scratch because the "final transmission" was actually a great deal further than the location where it was found.

Very different from my issue with the cap premise.
(the very next day you say)

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There have been plenty of war ships that have been sunk with about as much firepower as what Skull was carrying? Why have there been no attempts at recovering them?
Many have been actually, others are/were in enemy territory. Some are simply too dangerous to recover(it's not all that easy and sometimes not worth the risk).

It's not like the Japs can just stroll over here and get their ish back. And it's not like they are just going to sit pretty while we go and get it now are they?

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Old 07-26-2011, 09:18 PM   #135
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As for Skull betraying Hitler. Did Hitler know that Skull betrayed him? Sure, he vaporized some Nazis sent to question him but that's the key word---vaporized. No evidence left. Those generals could have been killed in a bombing raid for all he knows. Suspend your disbelief once again here.
I think that's rather implausible. I know we have to suspend disbelief to a point. But three presumably high ranking Nazi officials just going missing would seem very suspicious. And it was implied that Hitler was already unhappy with Schmidt. And then what? Did Schmidt vaporize the next batch Hitler sent?

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Old 07-26-2011, 10:33 PM   #136
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work on what exactly? finding the giant ship?
All I said was that Stark had some impressive tech of his own.


How far do you want me to zoom in?

This keeps coming up so I'm going to give it a shot.
One, there was no urgency(in the same respect of course)
Two, we sure has hell found the location pretty quick didn't we?
Three, yes we found the spot but we didn't have the subs(tech) to get down during those days. The first subs didn't arrive till after the first world war if I'm up on my history.
Four, years later when people did start "urgently searching" the ship was nothing but debris on the ocean floor at the mercy of tides and currents.
Five, year later when people did start searching, they were working from scratch because the "final transmission" was actually a great deal further than the location where it was found.

Very different from my issue with the cap premise.
(the very next day you say)


Many have been actually, others are/were in enemy territory. Some are simply too dangerous to recover(it's not all that easy and sometimes not worth the risk).

It's not like the Japs can just stroll over here and get their ish back. And it's not like they are just going to sit pretty while we go and get it now are they?
Yeah they found the survivors the next day, but they didn't locate the actual ship until they used that side scan sonar which wasn't invented until after WWII. If there was a better way to scan the ocean, I'm all ears.

As others has stated, there are explenation for the stuff you're crying about.

I'm done with this discussion, you want to keep thinking about dumb sh** to nit pick on this movie, knock yourself out.

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Old 07-26-2011, 10:58 PM   #137
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I think that's rather implausible. I know we have to suspend disbelief to a point. But three presumably high ranking Nazi officials just going missing would seem very suspicious. And it was implied that Hitler was already unhappy with Schmidt. And then what? Did Schmidt vaporize the next batch Hitler sent?
Maybe it was suspicious but that doesn't mean it couldn't have happened. Who knows if it was just those particular Nazis that were smart enough to figure out his plans. Others may have been sent and learned nothing from investigation It isn't explained and isn't really a big deal. I don't see the point in arguing about what-ifs.

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Old 07-26-2011, 11:16 PM   #138
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Default Re: So what DIDN'T we like?

this thread is about what we didn't like. it's our opinion, so what's with the big fuss over MARVIN'S OPINION? we all see different things when we watch a film. we like some stuff we don't like some stuff. this is the right section for it isn't it?

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Old 07-26-2011, 11:24 PM   #139
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fight scenes weren't dynamic and martial artsy and acrobatic enough... Blonsky taking on Hulk in the park was awesome... THAT's what should have happened in American Keptin

but the main problem was the ****ing lame Blue costume... in the comics we've seen clearly that the costume is Black just like Captain USA Agent hupti... so then just use that... Batman scrapped blue to use full Black and Grey costume... no need to trick audiences into thinking they're going to watch another movie of another kind... scho schtupid...

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Old 07-27-2011, 12:34 AM   #140
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I can't imagine the outcry for Johnston's head if they made the costume not blue.

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Old 07-27-2011, 12:37 AM   #141
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fight scenes weren't dynamic and martial artsy and acrobatic enough... Blonsky taking on Hulk in the park was awesome... THAT's what should have happened in American Keptin

but the main problem was the ****ing lame Blue costume... in the comics we've seen clearly that the costume is Black just like Captain USA Agent hupti... so then just use that... Batman scrapped blue to use full Black and Grey costume... no need to trick audiences into thinking they're going to watch another movie of another kind... scho schtupid...


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Old 07-27-2011, 01:24 AM   #142
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It's funny how the people who complained about how there weren't enough Nazis in the advertising were ridiculed on this board, seeing as how there were barely any Nazis in the movie. Hydra even breaks with them fairly early on. I would've liked to have seen Cap fighting some SS men and the like.
Yes, indeed.
I admit I liked the movie overall, but my early fears about the glossing-over of Cap fighting real swastika-wearing Nazis were totally spot-on and vindicated.

One person made the comment that it was a bit more respectful to not have a fictional superhero fighting the real Nazis that were fought by the real heroic Allied soldiers of WWII, and I understand that sentiment.
But the fact remains that the character of Captain America was depicted fighting Nazis almost a whole year before the US actually entered the war. Just for the sake of the character's tradition, Cap should have been shown bashing a realistic SS soldier or two for a few seconds in the movie.

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Old 07-27-2011, 01:46 AM   #143
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I don't know. Wasn't part of the thing that separated Steve from others was that he didn't want to join the army to kill Nazi's, but rather to stop who the Americans felt were bullies, which in this case was more of Hydra and the Red Skull. I think it made sense in the context of the film, which, as long as the final product is well received all around, it shouldn't have to rely on copying or being influenced by every bit of the character's comic book past.

I also wonder though, since this film is an international release, if that could be a possible reason for not trying to show much of Nazi's in action. I mean, bad enough a lot of countries weren't even including Captain America in the title.

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Old 07-27-2011, 01:57 AM   #144
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I can't see that being the case. The only thing the US, Europeans and the Soviets agreed on was that the Nazis were *******s who needed an ass kicking.

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Old 07-27-2011, 02:13 AM   #145
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I can understand what the writers mean when they say that they wanted to show some respect for the actual troops. I don't see how anyone would be offended or anything but to come out and say that Capt. was the reason that we won battles and the war is just a bit disrespectful. I had no problem with Hydra, I felt they were very Nazi influenced with their symbol reminding me of the Nazis and the whole Hail Hydra thing.

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Old 07-27-2011, 02:18 AM   #146
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Just to clarify, I didn't want to see Cap beating the Nazis single-handedly for America. I just wanted to see him punching the odd Nazi or two before focusing exclusively on Hydra.

The montage with the Howling Commandos showing their various exploits would have been a perfect place to throw in a couple of quick Nazi-punching scenes.

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Old 07-27-2011, 02:32 AM   #147
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An Air force bomber intentionally ditched a hydrogen bomb in shallow water off the coast of South Carolina in 1958 and it has never been found. There have been other mishaps of that nature in which planes, ships and entire expeditions have disappeared and never been recovered. It is not a stretch that the flying wing would have remained hidden in the Arctic for nearly 70 years.

The movie clearly showed it sinking beneath the surface so that most of it was hidden from view. During the war, the military would have found it hard to spare the resources for a search and recovery mission in the Arctic, particularly when they did not have precise coordinates for the location of the wreckage. The passage of a couple of Arctic winters would have done a lot to conceal the wreckage beneath snow and ice, so that even if aerial reconnaissance had stumbled across the location it might have been impossible to spot. After a few years the urgency of the search would have faded, the military and Howard Stark would have turned their attention elsewhere, leaving Steve to his frozen fate.

At least, that's how I see it.

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Old 07-27-2011, 02:34 AM   #148
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Default Re: So what DIDN'T we like?

And it's simply not disrespectful to show a movie hero fighting nazis, as tons of movies back in the 40's all ready were doing. Especially considering that's what Cap comics were doing back in that actual time period.

As far as I'm concerned, Cap's 70 year or so history and connection to WWII makes the character entitled to do anything.

But I wasn't really bothered by that, the only thing that snaps my cap is the LACK OF 1940'S SLANG TERMS.

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Old 07-27-2011, 02:48 AM   #149
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The thing is things are much more different in today's world. Back then it was done as a form of propaganda to get people excited to join the war or to help out in some other way like buying war bonds and stuff. Things were meant to be one sided and black and white.

But nowadays, people are much more sensitive and everything has to be done in a way to be "politically correct" as a way to prevent pissing someone off to the point where another war could start. I mean, like it or not, look at the death of Osama and how despite the public's cry for a pic to be released, the government didn't want to for various reasons such as making him look like a martyr or inspiring people to continue his fight.

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Old 07-27-2011, 05:58 AM   #150
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I understand what you're saying but the positive side is that it might make people think about how important freedom and individuality are. I think it's never a bad idea to remind people that nazis = bad.

If you try and wash over it, you run the risk that it could make them seem like what they did could never happen again or worse by omitting them or including a scene where the bad guy kills them off you could make them seem sympathetic. That would be the worst thing ever for a Captain America movie.

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