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Old 07-27-2011, 08:34 AM   #151
gridlockd
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Reverse engineering aside, Stark and co had crazy tech of their own.

So your sure the Hydra flight deck had no way of tracking it's own ship? I recall a shot of at least one or two radar screens that were operating.

1945 and 1912 is along time to compare such a task.


That's an analogy based on an assumption. The script could have just as easily read that they found him in 2 hours and we'd all accept it.

That doesn't excuse a plot hole(that was changed from the source material)

Exactly. I agree 100%.

You guys are too defensive. Nobody's saying this ruined the movie. We're just pointing out little things we think didn't work. If Steve were, through some mix up, presumed dead then none of this would be an issue. But as written, with the tech they had, the stakes being what they were and with some of the greatest minds of the time and the might of our entire military committed to finding him, it's hard to believe they couldn't find that massive ship in the snow over the next day, week, months, 6 months, year, decade, etc.

You get the impression they would have never stopped looking for Steve. I find it hard to believe that they either couldn't do it or eventually gave up.


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Old 07-27-2011, 08:42 AM   #152
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This conversation is so patently ridiculous it's not even funny. Marvin, give it a rest man. They offered an explanation ..... that's better than no explanation .... and yet that scene seems to have you losing sleep over it. You make a lot of conjecture about what "would have been done" back then and you assume because Stark can create one thing he most certainly can create the other. It's not necessary. The scene did exactly what it was designed to do, effectively in most peoples' eyes.

Why does he have to give it a rest? I asked for things we didn't like. No one asked you to fight the guy on his opinion every step of the way.
Everyone has been attacking this guy with questions and he keeps providing intelligent answers. It's always strange to me in situations like this, if you say anything negative about the popular movie, fans act like you're attacking them personally. He didn't buy that aspect of the movie, neither did I. He explained why. He's not being obnoxious about it so he does not have to 'give it a rest.'

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Old 07-27-2011, 08:52 AM   #153
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Yeah they found the survivors the next day, but they didn't locate the actual ship until they used that side scan sonar which wasn't invented until after WWII. If there was a better way to scan the ocean, I'm all ears.
So they found the location the very next day(and without the backing of the military I assume) swell. At least we made some progress here.

The side scanner did arrive about 4 or 5 years after WW2 yes, well at least the first one the world knew of, it's hard to say how many patents(of this nature) the military plays close to their chest, but that would be me doing what some have accused me of and forcing the issue.

Sonar Scanners and tech in general has actually been around since before the turn of that century and on working subs before WW2(I'm actually curious how well a sub could safely get around without it). I'm not saying that mere fact means they should have 100% found Cap, but is goes along way dismiss the point you wanted to hear all about(but probably didn't).

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As others has stated, there are explenation for the stuff you're crying about.
Who's crying? Truth be told I've had a blast. If only forums were around in the Batman and Robin days I would have expressed equal dismay and would have had just as much fun sharing with people. (don't take it personally, at least not until I start throwing insults your way)

It's all the same with some of you. You give it a shot and then you go back to this statement above. Look, I agree they gave an "explanation." It's better than not giving one and it actually works with the plotting which is all that matters really. I just simply expressed my opinion that it didn't work for me. Then I explained why, while some "cap fans" rally to tell me why I was wrong in feeling the way I (still) do. I also happen think this is a non issue in the original material. Of course cap has to sleep for 50 plus years, but this live goodbye message idea just comes off to me as a ploy to manipulate the audience and worked a lot better in Star Trek. On top of that the movie fell emotionally flat for a great deal of people which just speaks to how ill planned it was to begin with. You didn't really hear people saying the same thing about the goodbye in Titanic. But that's neither here nor there.

Point being, in my opinion, it's a bull **** explanation and it works on the premise that the people involved are more inept that they should be. If you loved the movie, no ones telling you your wrong for doing so. I liked it too. I just think Kevin Feige(these are pretty much his movies), made a bad call there. We go on and on about all the ships there were lost, but not a peep about the many more ships that were found. I'm looking for what makes this one so hard to find. The idea that the "land moves around." I'd even buy it more if he wasn't in constant communication with just about everybody in the end. If it was a mission with his frien...uh I mean Howling commandos and they had no idea where he went.

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I'm done with this discussion, you want to keep thinking about dumb sh** to nit pick on this movie, knock yourself out.
Nice dismount, not so fond of the follow through. There are better ways to bow out(for I have encountered a few).

If I find any more "dumb ****" to "nit pick" I'll be sure to let you know, till next time fritz.

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Old 07-27-2011, 09:00 AM   #154
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On the bright side, I found this awesome sound scape and voice acted digital version of my favorite cap story ever. (The Ultimates vol 1.1)

Not only is Cap the effing man(in every single frame) but Millar handles my very issue in what a find more eloquent and dire way. "what about me?"
Fighting nazi's in the trenches and jumping out of planes.

VIDEO-CLick to Watch!:

The best part is how there is a solid romance angle, yet the second party isn't even present.

Not sure if the mods will clear it(though youtube didn't pull it down and most likely won't). Your call SpiderFan

The rest of the volume is up too and Cap waking up is priceless.

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Old 07-27-2011, 11:39 AM   #155
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Roger Ebert's review made me think of something. It would have been cool to see Steve Rogers, in his introduction, sending away for one of those Charles Atlas ads they used to put on the back of comic books in those days. Where a scrawny kid goes from "scarecrow" to "hero of the beach!"

Would have established the time period, his burning desire to be strong and that America solved it's problems the old fashioned way, through violence.

Plus that last frame looks a lot like the Hilter jaw sock.

http://rogerebert.suntimes.com/apps/...0729997/-1/RSS



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Old 07-27-2011, 11:39 AM   #156
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Exactly. I agree 100%.

You guys are too defensive. Nobody's saying this ruined the movie. We're just pointing out little things we think didn't work. If Steve were, through some mix up, presumed dead then none of this would be an issue. But as written, with the tech they had, the stakes being what they were and with some of the greatest minds of the time and the might of our entire military committed to finding him, it's hard to believe they couldn't find that massive ship in the snow over the next day, week, months, 6 months, year, decade, etc.

You get the impression they would have never stopped looking for Steve. I find it hard to believe that they either couldn't do it or eventually gave up.
A "bomber" with early (hydra)stealth tech would have been a creative godsend.

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Roger Ebert's review made me think of something. It would have been cool to see Steve Rogers, in his introduction, sending away for one of those Charles Atlas ads they used to put on the back of comic books in those days. Where a scrawny kid goes from "scarecrow" to "hero of the beach!"
you must mean steve as a kid, that would be pretty sad to see this guy do that as a man lol.

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Old 07-27-2011, 11:49 AM   #157
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Exactly. I agree 100%.

You guys are too defensive. Nobody's saying this ruined the movie. We're just pointing out little things we think didn't work. If Steve were, through some mix up, presumed dead then none of this would be an issue. But as written, with the tech they had, the stakes being what they were and with some of the greatest minds of the time and the might of our entire military committed to finding him, it's hard to believe they couldn't find that massive ship in the snow over the next day, week, months, 6 months, year, decade, etc.

You get the impression they would have never stopped looking for Steve. I find it hard to believe that they either couldn't do it or eventually gave up.
Umm it did work. The two of you are just wanting more realism. Why? I'll never know.

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Old 07-27-2011, 11:51 AM   #158
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Why does he have to give it a rest? I asked for things we didn't like. No one asked you to fight the guy on his opinion every step of the way.
Everyone has been attacking this guy with questions and he keeps providing intelligent answers. It's always strange to me in situations like this, if you say anything negative about the popular movie, fans act like you're attacking them personally. He didn't buy that aspect of the movie, neither did I. He explained why. He's not being obnoxious about it so he does not have to 'give it a rest.'
I've responded with intelligent answers right back which were told straight to you in the movie. Both of you guys just refuse to accept them. You're needing "more" .... In Marvin's case, this is what he does .... so it's nothing new.

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Old 07-27-2011, 11:59 AM   #159
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Umm it did work. The two of you are just wanting more realism. Why? I'll never know.
Yeah, why would anyone want any realism? Cap should have also had lazer vision and did battles with dragons.

It's a thread about what we didn't like, since you loved every second, this might not be the thread for you.

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Old 07-27-2011, 12:20 PM   #160
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Exactly. I agree 100%.

You guys are too defensive. Nobody's saying this ruined the movie. We're just pointing out little things we think didn't work. If Steve were, through some mix up, presumed dead then none of this would be an issue. But as written, with the tech they had, the stakes being what they were and with some of the greatest minds of the time and the might of our entire military committed to finding him, it's hard to believe they couldn't find that massive ship in the snow over the next day, week, months, 6 months, year, decade, etc.

You get the impression they would have never stopped looking for Steve. I find it hard to believe that they either couldn't do it or eventually gave up.
They wouldn't keep searching more than a few weeks/months. After that(from their perspective) they know he'd have to be dead. They might keep looking longer than they would for some nobody but if your sure that the person in question couldn't possibly still be alive then you simply don't keep searching. Especially not for something like years. 2-3 months tops and then you accept the truth.

THAT is realistic.

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Old 07-27-2011, 12:23 PM   #161
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I've responded with intelligent answers right back which were told straight to you in the movie. Both of you guys just refuse to accept them. You're needing "more" .... In Marvin's case, this is what he does .... so it's nothing new.
lol, it's amazing what a different franchise thread does to people.

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Old 07-27-2011, 12:25 PM   #162
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Yeah, why would anyone want any realism? Cap should have also had lazer vision and did battles with dragons.

It's a thread about what we didn't like, since you loved every second, this might not be the thread for you.
Is this a joke? The whole movie is fictitious outside of the fact that WWII is happening around it. Cosmic cubes, guys with red skulls for faces .... c'mon .... it's not like the bomber being lost at sea broke all realm of possibility. You're acting as if it was "a battle with lazor vision and dragons."

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Old 07-27-2011, 12:26 PM   #163
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lol, it's amazing what a different franchise thread does to people.
If you say so ace. Looking up at the inside of your nostrils gets exhausting.

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Old 07-27-2011, 12:32 PM   #164
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They wouldn't keep searching more than a few weeks/months. After that(from their perspective) they know he'd have to be dead. They might keep looking longer than they would for some nobody but if your sure that the person in question couldn't possibly still be alive then you simply don't keep searching. Especially not for something like years. 2-3 months tops and then you accept the truth.

THAT is realistic.
Like Marvin said, it's not just his friends (though they seem like geniuses who are not easily detered.) but a military concern. That ship was launched from an enemy nation and on course to destroy New York city. It contains active nuclear warheads. It's a matter of national security and saftey. I find it hard to believe our entire military couldn't find this thing somehow. Magnets, metal detectors, something.

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Old 07-27-2011, 12:34 PM   #165
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You may have a point. To me, it's kinda nitpicky but whatever.

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Old 07-27-2011, 12:34 PM   #166
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If you say so ace. Looking up at the inside of your nostrils gets exhausting.
Well, that was cryptic.

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Old 07-27-2011, 12:37 PM   #167
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You may have a point. To me, it's kinda nitpicky but whatever.
They would rather have the ship found and then Steve floating around in ice for 70 years because that would be far more believable.

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Old 07-27-2011, 12:38 PM   #168
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You may have a point. To me, it's kinda nitpicky but whatever.
Thank you. It's definitely nitpicky. I'm not arguing that. I said in the first post "I have some nitpicks."

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Old 07-27-2011, 12:42 PM   #169
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They would rather have the ship found and then Steve floating around in ice for 70 years because that would be far more believable.
He's a super soldier if I recall(he can survive a lot worse)
The ship isn't a super hide and seeker(or is it lol)

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Old 07-27-2011, 12:43 PM   #170
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If you say so ace. Looking up at the inside of your nostrils gets exhausting.
sorry if you feel that way, just thought I'd stand by my convictions

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Old 07-27-2011, 12:45 PM   #171
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He's a super soldier if I recall(he can survive a lot worse)
The ship isn't a super hide and seeker(or is it lol)
Surviving the temperatures in that water and being frozen would be worse then trying to survive it above ..... was it ever explained in the movie that he could survive arctic waters? No. You seem to be OK with that and don't worry that it could be breaking its rules. Funny how that works.

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Old 07-27-2011, 12:59 PM   #172
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Surviving the temperatures in that water and being frozen would be worse then trying to survive it above ..... was it ever explained in the movie that he could survive arctic waters? No. You seem to be OK with that and don't worry that it could be breaking its rules. Funny how that works.
I don't know about that, Cryogenics isn't just common place in comic books but in real life aswell, we freeze/preserve/re-animate plenty of life forms, human organs, living tissue and so on...I did mention cap is a super soldier I think, chalk it up to good old science fiction.

so no that doesn't bother me, maybe it bothered someone else, if they bring it up in this thread be sure to call them expressing their nit pick.

that all being said...
you're kidding right?

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Old 07-27-2011, 01:10 PM   #173
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I don't know about that, Cryogenics isn't just common place in comic books but in real life aswell, we freeze/preserve/re-animate plenty of life forms, human organs, living tissue and so on...I did mention cap is a super soldier I think, chalk it up to good old science fiction.

so no that doesn't bother me, maybe it bothered someone else, if they bring it up in this thread be sure to call them expressing their nit pick.

that all being said...
you're kidding right?
Cryogenics wasn't invented in the 40's ..... it was founded in 1966 .... not to mention it involves the application of other chemicals. You don't just plop somebody into a chamber, freeze'em, and go "All set!"

EDIT: I stand corrected, cryogenics "of metals" was there during WWII. The first frozen man was in '67. It's actually "cryonics" in regards to suspension of humans and animals.


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Old 07-27-2011, 01:42 PM   #174
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Cryogenics didn't have to be invented to be enacted(by nature), that's the part google won't help you with.

Example, genetics wasn't invented till say the 1400's(i'm probably wrong), wanna go ahead and guess when it was first enacted?

Nuclear Fusion and Fission ironically around the time of the second world war, again wanna guess the first time it's ever happened?

point being, nature is a lot better and more likely to pull of scientific wonders than we are, nature also pulls them off alot earlier then we do. (ie cloning/creating life)

Captain America's body, like the many the bodies of prehistoric animals in the same region was placed in suspended animation due to being frozen super quickly in the cold depths of the arctic waters, the serum in his blood played a major part in sustaining him throughout a process that would have surely killed an average man. I'm fine with this, how about you.
(it kinda helps if he makes contact with the water, but who's to say)

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Old 07-27-2011, 01:54 PM   #175
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Cryogenics didn't have to be invented to be enacted(by nature), that's the part google won't help you with.
That's where you're wrong. In order to freeze a human body, there are other things that have to be administered.

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How is Cryonics Performed?

If *you decide to have yourself placed in cryonic suspension, what happens to you? Well, first, you have to join a cryonics facility and pay an annual membership fee (in the area of $400 a year). Then, when your heart stops beating and you are pronounced "legally dead," an emergency response team from the facility springs into action. The team stabilizes your body, supplying your brain with enough oxygen and blood to preserve minimal function until you can be transported to the suspension facility. Your body is packed in ice and injected with heparin (an anticoagulant) to prevent your blood from clotting during the trip. A medical team awaits the arrival of your body at the cryonics facility.

Once you are transported to the cryonics facility, the actual "freezing" begins. Cryonics facilities can't simply put their patients into a vat of liquid nitrogen, because the water inside their cells would freeze. When water freezes, it expands -- this would cause the cells to simply shatter. The cryonics team must first remove the water from your cells and replace it with a glycerol-based chemical mixture called a cryoprotectant -- a sort of human antifreeze. The goal is to protect the organs and tissues from forming ice crystals at extremely low temperatures. This process, called vitrification (deep cooling without freezing), puts the cells into a state of suspended animation.

Once the water in your body is replaced with the cryoprotectant, your body is cooled on a bed of dry ice until it reaches -130 C (-202 F), completing the vitrification process. The next step is to insert your body into an individual container that is then placed into a large metal tank filled with liquid nitrogen at a temperature of around -196 degrees Celsius (-320 degrees Fahrenheit). Your body is stored head down, so if there were ever a leak in the tank, your brain would stay immersed in the freezing liquid.

Cryonics isn't cheap -- it can cost up to $150,000 to have your whole body preserved. But for the more frugal futurists, a mere $50,000 will preserve your brain for perpetuity -- an option known as neurosuspension. Hopefully for those who have been preserved this way, technology will come up with a way to clone or regenerate the rest of the body.

http://science.howstuffworks.com/env.../cryonics2.htm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin
Example, genetics wasn't invented till say the 1400's(i'm probably wrong), wanna go ahead and guess when it was first enacted?

Nuclear Fusion and Fission ironically around the time of the second world war, again wanna guess the first time it's ever happened?

point being, nature is a lot better and more likely to pull of scientific wonders than we are, nature also pulls them off alot earlier then we do. (ie cloning/creating life)
It is? After reading the entire process you think nature could pull that off?

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Captain America's body, like the many the bodies of prehistoric animals in the same region was placed in suspended animation due to being frozen super quickly in the cold depths of the arctic waters, the serum in his blood played a major part in sustaining him throughout a process that would have surely killed an average man. I'm fine with this, how about you.
(it kinda helps if he makes contact with the water, but who's to say)
The serum in his blood in the movie was never described as having that kind of effect. So again we're talking about "the rules the movie establishes" ..... all we understood was it's ability to increase his physical and mental prowess ..... along with a metabolism unlike any other human.

I'm merely pointing out how you find it completely plausible to have some dude frozen out there in the arctic, just hanging around ..... and yet you scoff at the fact that a bomber could be lost out there. You seem to pick and choose where you wanna and where you don't.


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