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Old 08-03-2011, 05:40 PM   #1
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Default Why are guys shocked when I say this film was MUCH better than TDK?

This is coming from a guy who has never liked Cap America and from a HUGE Batman fan.
I loved the Cap movie, seen it twice and might see it a third time and REALLY did not like TDK.

But once you say Captain America is better or on par, people are shocked. It's like TDK is seen as the Holy-Grail of comic-book films. Which it ain't.
I get the feeling that it's somehow not cool to be patriotic, positive and have a heroic character with a bit of cheese (in a good way).

The whole dark, and serious stuff is wearing thin and my fav character Batman just ain't as exciting as Captain America....THAT is the sad truth. The Captain America film just GRABS you with so much excitement and it makes TDK seem like an old yarn that just mumbles along about morality and stuff.

What do you guys think? Is TDK this untouchable pot of gold?

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Old 08-03-2011, 06:07 PM   #2
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I really like the dark knight but thats more for heaths job as the joker I can't stand bail at all but I don't think cap was better then the dark knight I would say it a little blow I really like first class (not an x men fan at all) and I think that films on par with the dark knight.

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Old 08-03-2011, 06:09 PM   #3
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Default Re: Why are guys shocked when I say this film was MUCH better than TDK?

I am with you on this one - while I think TDK is an excellent Batman film, it is DEFINITELY overrated in terms of critics and hype surrounding it. YES, it was a good film but just because it's dark, it doesn't mean better.

When I see that Green Lantern 2 is going to be more "dark" and that the new ASM film will focus more on a "darker" Peter Parker, I cringe with feeling that everyone thinks "dark and mysterious" is better.

When I see the Marvel Studios films, they're like a breath of fresh air for me. Captain America does not need to be dark, eerie, and mysterious in order to be successful - and it was proven both critically and at the box office.

I've grown up seeing Spider-Man since I was around 7 and not once did I ever think "WOW, this film just NEEDS to be more depressing". People forget what great films like Spider-Man 2 and X2 were before TDK was released.

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Old 08-03-2011, 07:04 PM   #4
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Default Re: Why are guys shocked when I say this film was MUCH better than TDK?

I don't think that dark means better. I gravitate towards dark and sad stories more but thats not what makes the dark knight great in my mind it heath's joker. I forget sometimes that its heath behind the make up much like robert england is freddy kruger I forget that it's robert behind the make up. they talk, walk, move, and act diff. when they do these roles and thats what makes the dark knight great in my mind.

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Old 08-03-2011, 07:27 PM   #5
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Default Re: Why are guys shocked when I say this film was MUCH better than TDK?

In terms of why people rate the Dark Knight so high is that it was one film in which its substance met its hype or surpassed it. It was like watching something that moved beyond the genre that is usually associated with comic book films. Nolan's vision, Heath's performance as well as one of cinema's greatest villians make the Dark Knight a success. Whatever you or any of us think at the end of the day is still our personal opinion.

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Old 08-03-2011, 08:29 PM   #6
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Default Re: Why are guys shocked when I say this film was MUCH better than TDK?

How does ONE performance make a film great? Captain America was great across the board, without one single thing standing out.

As for surpassing the genre? No, don't think so. Superman surpassed the genre with an opening that has still not been topped. Batman REVOLUTIONIZED the genre that made it a trend-setter for how comic book films would be made and marketed. TDK did none of those things.

Cap America has shown that good old heroism aint such a bad thing

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Old 08-03-2011, 08:43 PM   #7
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Default Re: Why are guys shocked when I say this film was MUCH better than TDK?

Truth, I commend you for having the bravery to create this thread. Needless to say once the Nolan-worshippers / tdk fanatics find it there will be so much arguing it will not be pretty.

I've seen CAPTAIN AMERICA: The First Avenger 5 times now and I'm eager to see it again. I have yet to be able to watch tdk a 2nd time and I have tried twice. I just get bored and uninspired and stop.

CA:TFA is such an inspirational movie! Watching Steve Rogers face so much adversity and overcome it through strength of character is really fulfilling. A movie has not made me feel this good inside since The Shawshank Redemption.

MARVEL movies have really focused on the HERO and are designed to try and make the audience like and bond with the hero. One of the reasons I feel no connection to tdk is that Batman is reduced to an uninteresting failure and the joker is shown to 'outthink' and 'stay one step ahead' of him by an uncanny ability to organise a group of escaped mental patients to transport, plant, and wire massive amounts of explosives while everyone else manges to look the other way.

Try not to let Nolan-worshippers and others dissuade you. Most people were watching that movie through joker-glasses; so impressed by HL's performance that they are blind to rest of the uninspiring substanceless crap that it is.

You have my firm support of your stance: CAPTAIN AMERICA is miles better than tdk!!!!!

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Old 08-03-2011, 08:45 PM   #8
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Default Re: Why are guys shocked when I say this film was MUCH better than TDK?

TDK is not a perfect film but the story behind it is what makes it so enjoyable. I liked Cap but don't think its anywhere close to TDK. It is a bit shocking when you say Cap is MUCH better than the TDK. Can't really understand when you say Cap just grabs you when TDK didn't.

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Old 08-03-2011, 09:09 PM   #9
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Default Re: Why are guys shocked when I say this film was MUCH better than TDK?

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Originally Posted by Liam_H View Post
TDK is not a perfect film but the story behind it is what makes it so enjoyable. I liked Cap but don't think its anywhere close to TDK. It is a bit shocking when you say Cap is MUCH better than the TDK. Can't really understand when you say Cap just grabs you when TDK didn't.
Sorry man, it just did not...and I am a batman fan.

Nolan has turned Batman into a bore-fest. Preachy, exposition and treating me like a 2 year old who needs to be taught about good and bad.

"YOU WERE THE BEST OF US!!!!"

"SOMETIMES, THE TRUTH ISN'T GOOD ENOUGH"

What?

Cap was much deeper. I learned about the importance of being weak and APPRECIATING powers you are given because of the adversity you have to face. Also learned about the importance of propoganda during war-times and also, not cared this much for a hero since.....maybe Blade? Maybe.

TDK just had no heart, tried to be dark and serious but ended up trying to force down its meaning down my throat.

Yes, Cap A is miles better than TDK

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Old 08-03-2011, 09:15 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by Shadowlord X View Post
Truth, I commend you for having the bravery to create this thread. Needless to say once the Nolan-worshippers / tdk fanatics find it there will be so much arguing it will not be pretty.

I've seen CAPTAIN AMERICA: The First Avenger 5 times now and I'm eager to see it again. I have yet to be able to watch tdk a 2nd time and I have tried twice. I just get bored and uninspired and stop.

CA:TFA is such an inspirational movie! Watching Steve Rogers face so much adversity and overcome it through strength of character is really fulfilling. A movie has not made me feel this good inside since The Shawshank Redemption.

MARVEL movies have really focused on the HERO and are designed to try and make the audience like and bond with the hero. One of the reasons I feel no connection to tdk is that Batman is reduced to an uninteresting failure and the joker is shown to 'outthink' and 'stay one step ahead' of him by an uncanny ability to organise a group of escaped mental patients to transport, plant, and wire massive amounts of explosives while everyone else manges to look the other way.

Try not to let Nolan-worshippers and others dissuade you. Most people were watching that movie through joker-glasses; so impressed by HL's performance that they are blind to rest of the uninspiring substanceless crap that it is.

You have my firm support of your stance: CAPTAIN AMERICA is miles better than tdk!!!!!
Shadow, I am probably going to go in for a third go-round.

Cap Movie has proved being heroic and cheesy is A-Ok if done well.

Tired of the whole "lets follow Nolan and the darker edgier" nonsense.

I TOTALLY commend Cap A for apologetically being patriotic and positive.

Let the Nolanites come. They know deep down Johnston made a superior film to Nolan. Simple as that. Across the board...direction, acting, music, action scenes, story, emotion, story arc, theme.....ALL THERE.

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Old 08-03-2011, 09:18 PM   #11
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Default Re: Why are guys shocked when I say this film was MUCH better than TDK?

I've got your back all the way, buddy.

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Old 08-03-2011, 09:18 PM   #12
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Default Re: Why are guys shocked when I say this film was MUCH better than TDK?

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Cap was much deeper. I learned about the importance of being weak and APPRECIATING powers you are given because of the adversity you have to face. Also learned about the importance of propoganda during war-times and also, not cared this much for a hero since.....maybe Blade? Maybe.
What you say is much deeper I just don't see because the story of Cap is about a genuinely good man who is given the powers he doesn't have to do good. This was always the basis of Cap and the movie did a great job of portraying that but to me that's essentially it. There's nothing else to the story, the 2nd half of the movie felt too rush to me. Three years had passed and I wanted to see how Cap became such an inspiration that little kids were imitating him. I know why it happened because he was painted a war hero but it was so rushed.

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Shadow, I am probably going to go in for a third go-round.

Cap Movie has proved being heroic and cheesy is A-Ok if done well.

Tired of the whole "lets follow Nolan and the darker edgier" nonsense.

I TOTALLY commend Cap A for apologetically being patriotic and positive.

Let the Nolanites come. They know deep down Johnston made a superior film to Nolan. Simple as that. Across the board...direction, acting, music, action scenes, story, emotion, story arc, theme.....ALL THERE.
I believe you when you say that you enjoyed Cap better but that statement I certainly have to disagree with.


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Old 08-03-2011, 09:24 PM   #13
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Default Re: Why are guys shocked when I say this film was MUCH better than TDK?

Unless you want another 30 more minutes which i think is not really necessary. The quality of acting and filmmaking allows the audience to make the small leap of Cap having affected a nation.

I've seen some Cap comics, but this film just hit the message home much better than the comics. Same with what Donner and Puzo did with Superman. When I now think Cap America, I think of Chris Evans and this movie.

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Old 08-03-2011, 09:25 PM   #14
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Cap movie was a nice popcorn flick. But TDK is the gold standard of superhero movies. Gary Oldman alone gave a better performance in TDK than anyone did in the Cap movie.

Yeah truth, TDK is the untouchable pot of gold.

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Old 08-03-2011, 09:26 PM   #15
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The thing I fear is that this won't be a massive success because in today's society, the status quo is "gritty, dark and brooding". Look at Spiderman with Webb and what they want to do with Green Lantern.
Cap America sticks out like a sore thumb because a movie like this of its genre has not come out since....Superman 1?

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Old 08-03-2011, 09:29 PM   #16
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Cap movie was a nice popcorn flick. But TDK is the gold standard of superhero movies. Gary Oldman alone gave a better performance in TDK than anyone did in the Cap movie.

Yeah truth, TDK is the untouchable pot of gold.

Haha, Gold Standard? Please, explain how it is the "Gold" standard.

Last I checked, Superman 1 IS the Platinum standard.

Gary Oldman is a beast of an actor and does amazing in ANYTHING but sorry, I preferred Tommy Lee Jones's performance as it fit perfectly with the film and felt more real and genuine. Oldman could only act what he was given, and what he was given was just a whole load of preachy preach.

I get the feeling that guys who hold TDK in high regard have no appreciation of comics whatsoever. They don't appreciate the artistry. I mean, some of the imagery of Cap America was literally OUTSTANDING, like from a comic...but better

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Old 08-03-2011, 09:31 PM   #17
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How does ONE performance make a film great? Captain America was great across the board, without one single thing standing out.

As for surpassing the genre? No, don't think so. Superman surpassed the genre with an opening that has still not been topped. Batman REVOLUTIONIZED the genre that made it a trend-setter for how comic book films would be made and marketed. TDK did none of those things.

Cap America has shown that good old heroism aint such a bad thing
the nightmare films are all roberts freddy. Don't get me wrong there where some other outstanding acts in the nightmare films but robert makes the movies. Heath performance is the same way in my mind he really became the ch. he didn't just be himself (bruce wills) And I love the die hards. don't get my wrong again it's just heath was not heath he was the joker the same way robert was freddy.

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Old 08-03-2011, 09:32 PM   #18
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Default Re: Why are guys shocked when I say this film was MUCH better than TDK?

I think The Rocketeer The Shadow , And The Phantom are all very similar in tone to CA. And yes I know JJ directed The Rocketer too.

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Old 08-03-2011, 09:35 PM   #19
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Haha, Gold Standard? Please, explain how it is the "Gold" standard.
Because of it's superior acting and story telling.

The final monologue that Commissioner Gordon brings the themes from Batman Begins to their logical conclusion: Namely, that as a man, Bruce Wayneís powers to evil crime are rather limited. As a man, he can be corrupted, he can be killed, and ultimately, he can be defeated. As a symbol he can become far more, and at the end of The Dark Knight, he becomes, to society, an uncontainable force in very much the same way the Joker was. He becomes hunted, making people believe that he cannot be controlled, that he has lost all respect for societal norms and the rule of law. As Gordon realizes he needs to blame the murders on Batman, he acknowledges not only the need for society to push their fears onto something, but their hopes as well (which he allows them to do by preserving Dentís good name).

In order to keep from tearing itself to shreds, society needs to believe in the incorruptibility of good and the relative remoteness of evil. The Dark Knight points us to ways in which we cope with this need.

Simultaneously, itís also made clear that, in fact, Batman never succumbs to his own dark, inner urges. In the movie, Bruce Wayne says the line, ďIíve seen what I have to become to fight men like him,Ē and he rejects the path he has to take to stop Joker, a man who has no rules whatsoever. In one of the more memorable scenes from the film, the two have a showdown in Gothamís city streets, the Joker manically screaming ďHit me!Ē as Batman is propelled towards him in the bat pod. As much as Batman wants to annihilate the Joker, he knows he canít violate his own moral code, and almost sacrifices himself to prevent this from happening (albeit as part of a broader ruse to capture him). Still, Batman doesnít seek to kill evildoers, but to bring them to justice. The dichotomy that the film sets up between Joker and Batman is one of chaos vs. order. The dichotomy between Joker and Dent is one of good vs. evilÖ

ďYou either die a hero, or you live long enough to see yourself become the villain.Ē

These words, spoken by Harvey Dent in the film and its trailers, portend the inevitable corruptibility of heroes in the Batman universe. At the beginning of the film, Dent represents absolute good, a goodness thatís so pure, that has so much potential to change Gotham, that even Batman is thinking of hanging up his spurs.

Dent is referred to frequently as Gothamís ďWhite Knight,Ē a term used throughout the course of the film. I was speaking with a friend about this movie today and he pointed out that when he went to see the movie he did not anticipate ďThe Dark KnightĒ could actually also refer to Dent, a clever yet profound subtext to the film (and thatís not even mentioning the night/knight pun, which I will choose never mention again after this sentence). Indeed, Dentís journey from light to darkness is handled plausibly and adeptly in the film, which makes his story arc monstrously tragic.

Many people have remarked on how depressing the film is and I would say that I mostly agree: The Jokerís ability to destroy that which Dent loves and turn him to the evil that he becomes is sad in a way that can only be experienced by seeing the film. But the apparent relative ease with which Joker does this is what makes the Dent storyline strike so close to home: The film makes us realize that we, as humans are limited, and that our capacity to be good is subject to the vagaries of fate and whatever the hell else decides to destroy what we love. Dent is not just a proxy for hope, heís a proxy for us as well, reminding us of the duality that lies within each of us.

As Nolan has stated in interviews, this movie was not meant to explore the Jokerís backstory because itís really not that important to the film. Simply put, the Joker represents anarchy and chaos, a constant and near-unstoppable force whose origins are inexplicable (something which is made clear rather explicitly when the Joker delivers two creepily different monologues as to his scarsí origins). Many people compare Joker to other film and comic book villains but the one that I think he can be most closely associated with is Anton Chigurh from No Country for Old Men, who is a force of nature. His origins are unclear but his actions are strongly felt by those around him (to put it mildly).

The Joker is unpredictable and canít be reasoned with, nor does he have any broader goals except to create chaos and destruction. When I saw the movie Funny Games and watched an interview Michael Haneke, I was struck by something he said: To paraphrase, he said that we as individuals have personal spaces that go unsaid but are accepted by almost everyone. When people violate this personal space, the results can be terrifying. In a similar fashion, the Joker upends the genre conventions of a villain in that he has no inhibitions and refuses to hew even to the ultra-basic moral code of criminals (see: the opening scene). When a character has no values that you as a viewer can relate to and hold on to, the results are extremely disorienting. This unmoors our basic assumptions of the personís capabilities.

All of this comes to a head in the hospital scene, when Joker gives Harvey Dent the ďItís all part of the planĒ monologue, a speech thatís chilling not just for its content and delivery, but also because of its incisive commentary for us as Americans. I will not make any overtly political statements here, except to say that the complacency with which we as Americans have accepted atrocities and miscarriages of justice committed around the world as well as right here at home may have consequences beyond what we can imagine. The Jokerís monologue points to our baffling perceptions and reactions to the events that disrupt our lives. In our society, what exactly constitutes cause for alarm? And how much sense do those standards really make?

What do people do when they are put in the worst of situations? What would you do if you were given the ultimate power over someone else? The movie touches upon these questions of human nature, but they are perhaps its least developed.

We see this theme pop up several times, most notably in two separate instances. Firstly, itís evident when Batman breaks into Wayne enterprises and gives Lucius Fox fee reign of the cell phone hackery he has perpetrated upon all of Gotham. Fox demurs, believing that one person should not have this power. People are so easily corrupted that even an initial desire to do good can ultimately lead to evil, the film seems to be saying. This is further confirmed as the entire video interface comes to a fiery end, in a spectacular Batman-programmed self-destruction.

We also see it at the very end, when two separate sets of people are given the ability to destroy each other. Given the lead-up to the filmís climactic action scene, itís a little bit strange that the boat-bomb storyline ends in the way that it does: With both criminals and everyday citizens concluding that they wonít take anotherís life just to preserve their own. Throughout the whole movie, Nolan seems to be trying to tell us we are all easily subject to the temptations of the dark side, but the rest of the movie is already so relentlessly dark that perhaps this ending was more palatable to general audiences.

Humans canít handle power responsibly. But maybe, in our shared humanity, there is still hope for compassion.
At its best, The Dark Knight holds a mirror up to us as viewers and asks us to look closely, to examine ourselves as humans and as citizens. It doesnít always do this gracefully, but it tries far more than any comic book movie in recent memory has ever done. The fact that it succeeds most of the time is a testament to Nolanís script and artistry.


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Last I checked, Superman 1 IS the Platinum standard.
Maybe 30 years ago it was.

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Gary Oldman is a beast of an actor and does amazing in ANYTHING but sorry, I preferred Tommy Lee Jones's performance as it fit perfectly with the film and felt more real and genuine. Oldman could only act what he was given, and what he was given was just a whole load of preachy preach.
What he was given was solid compelling material. The final scene where he has to deal with Two Face holding his family hostage alone was so brilliant.

Oldman IS Jim Gordon.

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I get the feeling that guys who hold TDK in high regard have no appreciation of comics whatsoever. They don't appreciate the artistry. I mean, some of the imagery of Cap America was literally OUTSTANDING, like from a comic...but better
X-Men 3 had some great visuals as well, but the movie still sucked.

You sound like a guy who likes all style and no substance.

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Old 08-03-2011, 09:36 PM   #20
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the nightmare films are all roberts freddy. Don't get me wrong there where some other outstanding acts in the nightmare films but robert makes the movies. Heath performance is the same way in my mind he really became the ch. he didn't just be himself (bruce wills) And I love the die hards. don't get my wrong again it's just heath was not heath he was the joker the same way robert was freddy.
Brando BECAME Don Corleone and IS one of the greatest acting performances of all time. But Godfather is still seen as a great movie with ridiculous filmmaking, despite what Brando did.

TDK is all about Heath and does not stand on its own as a great film with a great story...cuz the story aint that great.

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Old 08-03-2011, 09:39 PM   #21
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TDK is all about Heath and does not stand on its own as a great film with a great story...cuz the story aint that great.
TDK is not all about Heath. Joker ain't even the focus of the story. He is not even in the final showdown of it. The story is brilliant and stands up brilliantly.

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Old 08-03-2011, 09:41 PM   #22
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Default Re: Why are guys shocked when I say this film was MUCH better than TDK?

I think Cap rivals TDK as the best superhero movie. I LOVE TDK, it's one of my favorite movies & I think it's the best comic book movie. But, Cap comes very close to it IMO. It was a near perfect adaptation of my third favorite superhero & it's a thrill-ride that's very similar to my favorite film series (Indiana Jones), hell it might even take place in the same world as Indy.

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Old 08-03-2011, 09:43 PM   #23
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Fudgie, I think we watched different films.

You see, the thing is, you are TOLD about this themes, the characters SAY it to you directly, the film is TELLING you how to feel.

In Empire Strikes Back, an incredible sequel, you are not spoonfed. It's a story within itself with characters being themselves. But you learn about Luke having to find out more about the force, having to face the evil that is Vader and also the great secret and how that affects him. Luke grows far more as a character than Batman ever did.

THAT'S what a great script does. The message is hidden beneath the words and you have to find it. An irresponsible script is one that has the characters making speeches and given monologues.

"You were the best of us!"

yeah, i knew that.

"This city showed you, it's full of people ready to believe in good"

Okay...thanks.

And that is the problem with you Nolanites. You just regurgitate what you have been spoonfed from the movie.

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Old 08-03-2011, 09:44 PM   #24
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Default Re: Why are guys shocked when I say this film was MUCH better than TDK?

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Brando BECAME Don Corleone and IS one of the greatest acting performances of all time. But Godfather is still seen as a great movie with ridiculous filmmaking, despite what Brando did.

TDK is all about Heath and does not stand on its own as a great film with a great story...cuz the story aint that great.
You are really selling short the performances by Oldman and Eckhart. To each is own, TDK was a compelling story and great direction. Cap had a compelling character but did nothing more with it.

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Old 08-03-2011, 09:48 PM   #25
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This thread is going to be trouble...I can just tell.

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