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View Poll Results: Should this Superman kill?
No. 133 70.00%
Yes, its about time 32 16.84%
He should Find a way to send them to the Phantom Zone 14 7.37%
Other (explain) 11 5.79%
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Old 08-24-2011, 09:50 PM   #76
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Default Re: Should this Superman kill?

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Originally Posted by SuperFerret View Post
**** that ****. I want to see the characters I love on screen. I want to see a celebration of the superhero mythos and all that's good about the characters I love. I either don't get that and get a movie that I can watch a few times and then never watch again because it's too much (The Dark Knight), or I get a movie that showcases the stuff I like and people give me **** over liking it (Green Lantern).

At least Marvel seems to be doing the right thing.
Then you shouldn't be looking to the movies....that's really not what they're for If you want something to have the sole purpose of celebrating the comics and comic fandom, etc...ask it of the comics. Let movies be movies....and if they happen to tickle a fanboy funnybone, then it's gravy. Besides...good movie or bad one, you'll always have the comics.

And with the proliferation of digital-release comics...you could probably rig up something to project them on a large screen, too.

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Plus, is the infatuation that teenage girls have with pseudo-vampires any less sad than your infatuation with men in spandex and Heath Ledger? Its probably more justifiable for them. :)
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Old 08-24-2011, 09:51 PM   #77
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Default Re: Should this Superman kill?

Then they shouldn't be making movies based off of these characters.



Also, note how I said "superhero mythos" instead of "comics". There's a difference there. The characters are bigger than any one medium, just as they're bigger than any one creator, and why terms like "the director's vision" piss me off.

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Old 08-24-2011, 09:52 PM   #78
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Default Re: Should this Superman kill?

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People loved TDK because of the story, characters, and the action. It's a package. SR didn't have that whole package. Not only did it not have any great fights, but the story wasn't anything to write home about, either.
A great deal of complaint of Nolan movies, especially BB is how terrible the action is shot. It improved a lot in TDK but the most memorable things in the movies are not the action.

But with Superman its almost expected for some great scenes because of how powerful he is, I certainly want a scene where he just lets his rage out and just demolishes something/someone with just his fists. Darkseid or Doomsday are perfect candidates for this but they're not gonna be in this movie. The JLU cartoon did this perfectly, ever since I saw this scene I wanted something similar in live action...

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Old 08-24-2011, 09:54 PM   #79
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Default Re: Should this Superman kill?

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Then they shouldn't be making movies based off of these characters.
By that measure, they shouldn't be making movies based on novels that don't feel like you're reading a novel, either. Comics/superheroes shouldn't get any special treatment if others aren't. There are works or literature and myth whose characters and stories have a much broader and deeper cultural impact than comic superheroes ever will. If they aren't immune to cinematic reinterpretation, why would comic superheroes deserve any sort of entitlement?

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Then they shouldn't be making movies based off of these characters.
Then you shouldn't be looking for it in the movies....they're not the problem here.

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Plus, is the infatuation that teenage girls have with pseudo-vampires any less sad than your infatuation with men in spandex and Heath Ledger? Its probably more justifiable for them. :)

Last edited by KalMart; 08-24-2011 at 10:01 PM.
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Old 08-24-2011, 09:56 PM   #80
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Default Re: Should this Superman kill?

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You're delusional.
No, I know what I look for in a superhero movie. Quite frankly, I don't give a **** about how many awesome fight scenes a superhero movie has if the characters are all a bunch of crap. This is why I believe The Dark Knight is awesome, and Green Lantern is terrible.

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^Yeap, the reason people love BB/TDK isn't because of the fights its because we love the story and characters. This basically applies to almost any other superhero movie.
Agreed.

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And why the genre of actual superhero movies is dying. Because people expect "takes" on the character, and not the character itself. It's infuriating.
Everything is a "take" on the character. From comics to movies, they are all the writer's "take" on the character.

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And the result is....we get better actual movies.


The horror.
I know. The horror of great movies!

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Old 08-24-2011, 10:00 PM   #81
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Default Re: Should this Superman kill?

Should Superman kill? If you want to throw the character away....sure. Why not? Otherwise.....are you kidding?

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Old 08-24-2011, 10:00 PM   #82
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Then you shouldn't be looking to the movies....that's really not what they're for If you want something to have the sole purpose of celebrating the comics and comic fandom, etc...ask it of the comics. Let movies be movies....and if they happen to tickle a fanboy funnybone, then it's gravy. Besides...good movie or bad one, you'll always have the comics.

And with the proliferation of digital-release comics...you could probably rig up something to project them on a large screen, too.
Agreed.

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Old 08-24-2011, 10:05 PM   #83
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Default Re: Should this Superman kill?

This thread brought to you by the following:

*John Byrne
*people who don't really know or care for the true character of Superman
*people with dubious moral standards
*people with severe cases of cynicism and small-mindedness
*people who equate violence and/or murder with "kewll!!11" or "badazzz!!11"

In short: this thread brought to you by writers of Marvel Comics.


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Old 08-24-2011, 10:11 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by The Red Hood View Post
This thread brought to you by the following:

*John Byrne
*people who don't really know or care for the true character of Superman
*people with dubious moral standards
*people with severe cases of cynicism and small-mindedness
*people who are jealous of Marvel's movies
*people who are envious of Batman
*people who equate violence and/or murder with "kewll!!11" or "badazzz!!11"
Small addition for the sake of precision.


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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt
Plus, is the infatuation that teenage girls have with pseudo-vampires any less sad than your infatuation with men in spandex and Heath Ledger? Its probably more justifiable for them. :)
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Old 08-24-2011, 11:18 PM   #85
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Default Re: Should this Superman kill?

But Batman has a hirer moral code on Killing than Batman. Well at least post crisis Batman and Superman.

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Old 08-24-2011, 11:18 PM   #86
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Default Re: Should this Superman kill?

Superman should NOT kill!!

it is totally against his character.

he may fail to save someone; but he should make every effort to try to save that person, even if it is the villain.

if the villain dies, it should be by his/her own doing, not Superman killing the villain.

it was bad enough in SR that Superman indirectly killed Lex's goons when he lifted up New Krypton ( Supes made no effort to try to save Lex and his goons ). not only that, his son accidentally killed one of Lex's goons to save his mother.

yeah, I know that they were both in extreme circumstances. but, the story and the characters didn't have to be written that way.

so......no......Superman should not kill.

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Old 08-24-2011, 11:22 PM   #87
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Default Re: Should this Superman kill?

I had a huge argument with my Uncle over this because he said it makes no sense that Superman and Batman have just let Joker and Luthor kill all of these people and let them live. All my argument was well, their ****ing superhero's. Their not suppose to kill. It goes agaisnt everything in their character. I will say this. I wouldn't be opposed to Superman killing if EVERY other option is exhausted and the ONLY way to stop a villain is to kill him. But only if.

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Old 08-24-2011, 11:25 PM   #88
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Default Re: Should this Superman kill?

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Originally Posted by The Red Hood View Post
This thread brought to you by the following:

*John Byrne
*people who don't really know or care for the true character of Superman
*people with dubious moral standards
*people with severe cases of cynicism and small-mindedness
*people who equate violence and/or murder with "kewll!!11" or "badazzz!!11"

In short: this thread brought to you by writers of Marvel Comics.

This is like saying that any person who supports police officers has dubious moral standards, is cynical, and believes murder is cool. Though a police officer does everything in his power not to use violence, and many have never had to fire their weapons, there's always the possibility that one day, he might have to do, just to protect people. Sure, Superman has superpowers on his side, and he can avoid killing much better than a police officer. But like anybody who fights injustice, there's going to come a day when he's in a serious dilemma, and he's going to have to make a difficult decision.

By no means am I supporting a murderous, anti-hero Superman. I don't want Superman to just start deciding to kill all of his villains. But I'm not going to look at it from an impossible point of view. I think Superman, and any superhero from that matter, is going to face that ultimatum. The only reason Superman has not had to kill is because the stories are written in such a way as to always give him a way out. If luck weren't on his side, though, he'd have to make that difficult decision: the one versus the many. It's horrible, it's horrendous, but it also brings a level of depth to the character.

I expect many to disagree with what I've said here, and I'm going to hear the typical "this is comics, it's not real life," but I'm just helping to look at it from an outside point of view.

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Old 08-24-2011, 11:28 PM   #89
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I had a huge argument with my Uncle over this because he said it makes no sense that Superman and Batman have just let Joker and Luthor kill all of these people and let them live. All my argument was well, their ****ing superhero's. Their not suppose to kill. It goes agaisnt everything in their character. I will say this. I wouldn't be opposed to Superman killing if EVERY other option is exhausted and the ONLY way to stop a villain is to kill him. But only if.
well, if the heroes killed all the villains......we'd run out of stories fairly quickly......

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Old 08-24-2011, 11:31 PM   #90
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Default Re: Should this Superman kill?

John Byrne's take on Superman was very progressive for its time.
Superman should kill if he needs to.
This "no kill no matter what" code is clearly a Sacred Cow.
Thus it must be put down.
I predict Superman will kill out of necessity in MOS.
I find it amusing how some seem to forget Superman #22 (one of the best ever) from the majestic and truly iconic Byrne run, and of course, Superman killing Zod in Superman II, and allowing Ursa and Non to die as well.

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Old 08-24-2011, 11:32 PM   #91
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well, if the heroes killed all the villains......we'd run out of stories fairly quickly......
I think in this case he needs to.
Just one time, to show that he can do it.
Just to kill the Sacred Cow that this issue has become.
This is just like the trunks, it has to go.

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Old 08-24-2011, 11:32 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by Doc Krypton View Post
This is like saying that any person who supports police officers has dubious moral standards, is cynical, and believes murder is cool. Though a police officer does everything in his power not to use violence, and many have never had to fire their weapons, there's always the possibility that one day, he might have to do, just to protect people. Sure, Superman has superpowers on his side, and he can avoid killing much better than a police officer. But like anybody who fights injustice, there's going to come a day when he's in a serious dilemma, and he's going to have to make a difficult decision.

By no means am I supporting a murderous, anti-hero Superman. I don't want Superman to just start deciding to kill all of his villains. But I'm not going to look at it from an impossible point of view. I think Superman, and any superhero from that matter, is going to face that ultimatum. The only reason Superman has not had to kill is because the stories are written in such a way as to always give him a way out. If luck weren't on his side, though, he'd have to make that difficult decision: the one versus the many. It's horrible, it's horrendous, but it also brings a level of depth to the character.

I expect many to disagree with what I've said here, and I'm going to hear the typical "this is comics, it's not real life," but I'm just helping to look at it from an outside point of view.
I understand what you are saying.

Superman facing a "one vs many" situation would be compelling and dramatic, if the storyline is written well.

it's just that......with Superman......with all of his abilities........he has less excuses to NOT try to save everyone.

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Old 08-24-2011, 11:45 PM   #93
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Default Re: Should this Superman kill?

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I think in this case he needs to.
Just one time, to show that he can do it.
Just to kill the Sacred Cow that this issue has become.
This is just like the trunks, it has to go.
Superman is not a killer. He is a symbol of America, the hero that other heroes look up to. He is not Doctor Manhattan, nor the Sentry, nor Miracleman/Marvelman.


This is not what Superman does. These are the actions of an anti-hero, something Superman was never intended to be.

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Old 08-24-2011, 11:56 PM   #94
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Like I said Godzilla,
The issue has become a sacred cow.
Have you read the Supergirl storyline that culminated in Superman's execution of Zod and his cohorts (from and in the Pocket Universe) in Byrne's majestic Superman #22?
Out of necessity, Superman had to be judge and executioner.
You try to present your perspective, by going to extremes, displaying Sentry in full loco mode.
What Superman was "intended to be" is being revisited and adjusted accordingly. (BTW, Marvel's Supreme Power is awesome!)

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Old 08-25-2011, 12:01 AM   #95
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Default Re: Should this Superman kill?

He shouldn't be judge and executioner at all. That isn't what Superman suppose to do.

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Old 08-25-2011, 12:05 AM   #96
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Default Re: Should this Superman kill?

He did it not because he was supposed to but because he had to.
I think MOS should have a situation where he is placed in exactly that situation, in order to slay the sacred cow that Superman can't kill.
It has to happen.

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Old 08-25-2011, 12:10 AM   #97
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Default Re: Should this Superman kill?

The Byrne story's a bad example, isn't it? They were depowered permanently, even Andy Taylor wouldn't have trouble keeping them imprisoned as long as Barney didn't hang the keys right next to the cell.

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Old 08-25-2011, 12:13 AM   #98
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Default Re: Should this Superman kill?

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The Byrne story's a bad example, isn't it? They were depowered, even Andy Taylor wouldn't have trouble keeping them imprisoned as long as Barney didn't hang the keys right next to the cell.
Depowered with Gold K and actually, it was established that Green K does not work on Kryptonians who have been depowered, so it didn't make sense from that viewpoint either...not that Byrne or Mike Carlin knew enough about Pre-Crisis Superman to know that detail, obviously.

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Old 08-25-2011, 12:18 AM   #99
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The Byrne story's a bad example, isn't it? They were depowered permanently, even Andy Taylor wouldn't have trouble keeping them imprisoned as long as Barney didn't hang the keys right next to the cell.
Not at all. The Byrne Superman run is one of the best of all time. Byrne resurrected Superman from the brink of irrelevancy, after three unfortunate decades of poor storytelling by second rate writers, who seemed to preferred by Julie Schwartz. Superman was concerned that even the slightest possibility that they (the Kryptonian villains) would somehow find a way to regain their powers, after their exposure to Gold Kryptonite, and find a way Earth 1, was too high for him to allow them to continue their existences. Superman took appropriate measures. It would have been irresponsible for him to have done otherwise considering the situation. They were responsible for the murder of billions of people.
If you disagree, should Superman allow Adolph Hitler to live, had he somehow encountered him in that era?

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Old 08-25-2011, 12:24 AM   #100
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Default Re: Should this Superman kill?

But Superman could stop Hitler without Killing him. Superman isn't a judge. He was raised in middle AMERICA. And in America we give people rights to a fair trial. Superman isn't a true hero if he can determine who he wants to live. Whats then stopping him from just saying **** it and taking over the world to make it a utopia.

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