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Old 01-18-2012, 12:07 AM   #126
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I honestly think the recent Batman games are a great benchmark as far as tangibility of the world is concerned. If they could make a Superman game where you actually feel like you're in the air of a real place, then they've succeeded on the most important level. I agree Metropolis shouldn't be a dark place, but it should feel real, not completely pristine. That was one reason SR was so visually uninteresting. The variety in different experiences at different speeds does make it very difficult to do, but the natural motion of the mechanics is imperative to the game feeling right, and that is something they should take from the new Batman games.

Beyond that, they should take the things that make each respective character awesome to be. I see no reason why an action scene like the plane scene in SR would be impossible to replicate in a badass and fun way without the use of QTEs, all the way from hearing the accident, to changing into Superman, to flying there and saving the plane. Make the story linear if that's what it takes to make these kinds of sequence that can stand up to a sequence from Uncharted in a totally different way. The idea that it's impossible to make a great, exciting Superman game with a great story is nonsense. It just takes the right team and the right funds.

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Old 01-18-2012, 12:21 AM   #127
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How about a game where Superman flies through rings?

Right, lets look at the problems Superman games have.

1) Metropolis is made so big, it looks crap.
2) Superman is way too powerful, so it doesn't give the player a challenge.
3) When he's given health, it's criticized. When he doesn't, it's criticized for giving the player no challenge.
4) He's so powerful, that his enemies are unique for him...Which doesn't go down to well with players.
5) Every game becomes repetitive very quickly.

There's tons more. But it's easy to understand why Superman games haven't been all that great...Nobody knows what the hell to do with him!
You lost me on number 4. How and Why don't his unique enemies go down well with players. That's not something I've observed. Because utilizing his unique enemies addresses all but one of the problems. Size doesn't make bad art. Rushing movie tie ins makes bad art. Superman Returns would not have had better art if it was a linear game. That's not how the art department works.

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Old 01-18-2012, 09:58 AM   #128
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A lot of people usually want to see regular villains, like muggers and bank robbers. But that won't happen because, as said, it's not a challenge to Superman.

And instead, which I've seen with Returns, MOS (Xbox) and SOA, we're given enemies that get extremely tedious very quickly. You have to utilize each of Superman's powers to beat them. While it is pretty creative, it does get boring annoying after so long.

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Old 01-18-2012, 01:22 PM   #129
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Hmmm... that sounds like every boss fight ever, though. Does Arkham Asylum get tedius when you have to utilize each of his abilities to defeat bosses? Or Infamous... or Metal Gear Solid for that matter. If so, I don't think it's the concept of using all your abilities to win, but the time and talent it takes to make great boss fights hasn't been used on a Superman game. I mean, the same guys that did MOS (Xbox) did Dark Victory. I don't think Superman's abilities where the issue, at least not with making compelling boss battles.

Also, do people really *want* to see Regular thugs (rarely called villains), or is that just all they know? I don't know anyone who knows about Superman's villains that wants to see him battle Bank Robbers.

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Old 01-18-2012, 01:32 PM   #130
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I do. Not exclusively, but I wouldn't want the relatively mundane things left out and for it to be just supervillain fights. And they shouldn't be able to hurt Superman, but can obviously hurt hostages and bystanders, for example, which is where the challenge in dealing with them would lie.

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Old 01-18-2012, 01:46 PM   #131
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That's interesting. Sort of like that L.A. Noire part. Where Phelps has to shoot the guy before he shoots the hostage. Just imagine Supes using his heat vision to burn the gun, and avoiding hitting the hostage AND the criminal.

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Old 01-18-2012, 01:49 PM   #132
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Hmmm... that sounds like every boss fight ever, though. Does Arkham Asylum get tedius when you have to utilize each of his abilities to defeat bosses? Or Infamous... or Metal Gear Solid for that matter. If so, I don't think it's the concept of using all your abilities to win, but the time and talent it takes to make great boss fights hasn't been used on a Superman game. I mean, the same guys that did MOS (Xbox) did Dark Victory. I don't think Superman's abilities where the issue, at least not with making compelling boss battles.

Also, do people really *want* to see Regular thugs (rarely called villains), or is that just all they know? I don't know anyone who knows about Superman's villains that wants to see him battle Bank Robbers.
Yeah, but boss battles occur every once and a while. It gets annoying doing that every 2 minutes with regular enemies.

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Old 01-18-2012, 02:01 PM   #133
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That's interesting. Sort of like that L.A. Noire part. Where Phelps has to shoot the guy before he shoots the hostage. Just imagine Supes using his heat vision to burn the gun, and avoiding hitting the hostage AND the criminal.
Yeah, and you could use the combination of heat vision and telescopic vision like a sniper rifle.

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Old 01-18-2012, 02:11 PM   #134
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Yeah, and you could use the combination of heat vision and telescopic vision like a sniper rifle.
Exactly. And kind of like AA and AC, Superman could use use hix x-ray vision to see through walls, so the player can plan the best cause of action. I think that would work well if hostages were being held. Cause Supes bursting through a wall, in the wrong position, would undoubtedly get everybody killed.

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Old 01-18-2012, 04:49 PM   #135
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Yeah, but boss battles occur every once and a while. It gets annoying doing that every 2 minutes with regular enemies.
Oh! So back when you listed the problems with Superman games, you were saying his regular enemies had to be unique to him? Well I definiely don't agree with that. His bosses, yeah, but regular enemies, definitely not.

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I do. Not exclusively, but I wouldn't want the relatively mundane things left out and for it to be just supervillain fights. And they shouldn't be able to hurt Superman, but can obviously hurt hostages and bystanders, for example, which is where the challenge in dealing with them would lie.
So, hostage situations, like, as Rod said, are in AA and AC. Hmmm...
1) Epic Boss Battles
2) Precarious Hostage Rescue 'Puzzles'

Sounds like a good superman game to me!

A couple thoughts though, how would you guys handle:
A) Making Hostages Difficult to rescue could be a very difficult in itself. There aren't many (any?) things to really stop him from solving the problem in a single atack.
B) Hostage situations can get repetitve, and lack the emotional umph of your character being in danger

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Old 01-18-2012, 05:37 PM   #136
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So, hostage situations, like, as Rod said, are in AA and AC. Hmmm...
1) Epic Boss Battles
2) Precarious Hostage Rescue 'Puzzles'

Sounds like a good superman game to me!

A couple thoughts though, how would you guys handle:
A) Making Hostages Difficult to rescue could be a very difficult in itself. There aren't many (any?) things to really stop him from solving the problem in a single atack.
B) Hostage situations can get repetitve, and lack the emotional umph of your character being in danger
I wouldn't make hostage situations a random occurrence. Keep it like a consistency theme with a certain type of villain, like Riddler in AC. A bank robber or mugger can hold a gun to someones head, and LC said, Supes can use heat and telescopic vision to disarm the guy.

Toyman would make an interesting villain for a Riddler type role. Say, he's kidnapped a bunch of kids and hidden them around Metropolis. As Clark, you have to find clues and deduct where Toyman could have hidden them, then Superman has to go and rescue them. Now say, in you're in an area where a kid is held, Toyman tells you that you must not use your powers to make it more challenging to the player. If Supes fails the mission, the kid is taken away (to an unknown fate), which you have to replay.

And as Batman has a mini map and menu connected to the Batcomputer, I think it would be fun if that sort of thing could be done at the Daily Planet. Clark (the player) keeping track of stuff and making plans, finding clues and listening to hints from Lois and Perry, etc.

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Old 01-18-2012, 05:44 PM   #137
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I figure if we're fans of Superman, we're used to him not being in danger very often and that's not the appeal of the character in the first place. In a video game, the danger is losing, and that doesn't have to mean the playable character dying. There's plenty of mission based video games these days where the challenge isn't about surviving.

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Old 01-18-2012, 06:42 PM   #138
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Just do the cliche thing...he's poisoned with Kryptonite!!!

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Old 01-18-2012, 08:00 PM   #139
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A way to do things IMO. Certain situations, Superman can fail in a variety of ways. Somebody is killed, timer runs out, just general failure. Then during tough battles, he's given a health meter.

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Old 01-19-2012, 09:33 AM   #140
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^Exactly.

I still have one concerns, what I was trying to get out earlier. How do you deal with the emotional disconnect of saving someone else? Many veteran gamers know how bad escort missions can be, but even beyond bad AI, is, unless the story makes me care for the characters, I, as the average gamer, really am not too worried about whether they live or die or not.

Take the hostage situations in Arkham Asylum, these were doctors, ambushed, and they were iirc, the only ones in that circumstance, and the one that was actually in danger if not saved correctly turned out to be very important.

How would you get a player to care about all the hostages in Metropolis?

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Old 01-19-2012, 11:01 AM   #141
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It would have to be a mix of just the random citizen now and then. But mainly, it would have to include characters who have personality, who have connection to the specific storyline. Cause you are right, picking up a random injured citizen and dropping them off to an ambulance, it isn't very gripping.

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Old 01-19-2012, 05:04 PM   #142
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I like it. It could even be characters from the comics, so that there's a storyline leading you up to the hostage situations and following and such. Perhaps they're the supporting cast from the daily planet, so they all have part of an important story, for instance.

Another thing that I think is crazy important is flight... like, making sure it has weight to it. Superman Returns made it fun to go fast, but there was a certain fluidity missing to it, I think. Some shaking as you hit immense speeds, some gentle bobbing in the air if you hover, some momentum as you speed up and slow down, and some kind of environmental effect. And, of course, fluid controls, press the fly button (Trigger?) you start flying forwards, A speeds up, B slows down, fly to the ground to land.

Does that sound intuitive at all?

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Old 01-19-2012, 07:05 PM   #143
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That could work. In Returns and MOS, it felt like the whole control system was the same. It felt too similar when Supes was running and flying. Like there was no real sense of difference within the gameplay. In AC, Batman may only glide with his cape, but it feels completely different as opposed to when he's on the ground. Imagine a completely different feeling of gameplay when Supes is on the ground, and what he does when flying. That means shaking up the control scheme, creating a different feeling, in order to keep players entertained. I think SOA got it pretty close. Walking and flying shouldn't play out or feel the same. One shouldn't feel obsolete, if you know what I mean?

Thst would mean a diffferent style of controls, the system of gameplay while walking and a unique control and gameplay system when flying.

Also making one essential to the challenge in hand. With the player thinking - "Is it best if I fly or not?" "should I fight him on the ground or in the air, what's best?". That wouldn't be just the player going, "I can use heat vision on him up here". It would have to be a decision that really dove into the style of gameplay the player wanted to do. Having the option to a different style of controls, either on the ground or in the air. More about the uniqueness, not convenience.

Heck, you could have a storyline where a number of characters from the comic are kidnapped. But make the dire situations relevant to Superman's abilities and weaknesses. Where something like Perry is going to be crushed to death, and you have to button mash, in order to destroy whatever it is that will kill him, rather than just Superman beating up the kidnappers.

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Old 01-19-2012, 10:12 PM   #144
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I think one way to give Superman "generic" bad guys to fight, instead of the common robber/thug, would be to incorporate Intergang into the story.

say, there's an outbreak of violence and Intergang has taken over the streets of Metropolis. Because they're Intergang, even the "common" gang member will be equipped with some kind of advanced tech weapon ( energy beams, laser, sonic, etc. ).

These weapons would provide a challenge to Supes, moreso than the common gun. While these won't actually kill Supes, they can damage his health to the point where it would make it a challenge for the player.

And, you could include a variety of weapons that affect Superman in different ways. For example, a gang member with some kind of sonic weapon would overwhelm Superman's hearing and disorient him ( gameplay wise, this could jam up your "radar/map" screen, or temporarily stun Superman. ). other weapons could have different effects ( some may block heat vision, etc. ).

this would make the player approach each battle more strategically, meaning you just can't go in and beat everyone up or spam a super power constantly. you'll have to think about which powers will be more effective against said enemy, and how their weapons can hurt Superman.........

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Old 01-19-2012, 10:47 PM   #145
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That'd be cool.

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Old 01-20-2012, 06:34 AM   #146
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I think one way to give Superman "generic" bad guys to fight, instead of the common robber/thug, would be to incorporate Intergang into the story.

say, there's an outbreak of violence and Intergang has taken over the streets of Metropolis. Because they're Intergang, even the "common" gang member will be equipped with some kind of advanced tech weapon ( energy beams, laser, sonic, etc. ).

These weapons would provide a challenge to Supes, moreso than the common gun. While these won't actually kill Supes, they can damage his health to the point where it would make it a challenge for the player.

And, you could include a variety of weapons that affect Superman in different ways. For example, a gang member with some kind of sonic weapon would overwhelm Superman's hearing and disorient him ( gameplay wise, this could jam up your "radar/map" screen, or temporarily stun Superman. ). other weapons could have different effects ( some may block heat vision, etc. ).

this would make the player approach each battle more strategically, meaning you just can't go in and beat everyone up or spam a super power constantly. you'll have to think about which powers will be more effective against said enemy, and how their weapons can hurt Superman.........
That's an interesting idea!

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Old 01-20-2012, 03:40 PM   #147
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That is an interesting idea indeed. I like the part about having to be tactical with the use of your abilities. I don't think the only concern is 'can they hurt superman' but can they withstand Superman. For instance is there a plausible way for thugs to be immune to Superman dive bombing or kiting them, either with heat vision or plain old fisticuffs? Superman's ability to fly gives him a really, really powerful charge/run by attack.

I also like Rodrigo's development of the hostage idea, if it's more than just a person, it can be more of a challenge. Yes, Superman can disarm thugs and such pretty swiftly, but that doesn't mean that something larger can't be the threat, and it also synchs with the idea that some has specifically kidnapped and trapped these people.

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Old 01-20-2012, 09:59 PM   #148
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Yeah, it doesn't have to be anything simple. Batman rescued hostages that were victims of the Riddler's MO, and the design that felt 'right' for Batman's capabilities.

I would love to see something like that scene from the Batman and Superman cartoon film. Where Joker ties Mercy to one of Lex's gigant robots, and every time Superman sped around and tried to punch it, it would rotate its body, so Mercy was in the way of Superman's punch.

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Old 01-20-2012, 10:13 PM   #149
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Mister Mxyzptlk could fill that role for Superman in his game.

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Old 01-20-2012, 10:37 PM   #150
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Mister Mxyzptlk would be a great villain to use...and no, not forcing Superman to race him, I mean he could be the main villain if they wanted. With all the stuff he can do.

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