The Video Game Thread

[tabula rasa]

Several years ago, I had an idea for a Superman game that could take advantage of the motion controls that Wii offered. It would be in first-person view. Just punch with either hand and Superman would punch, too. Simple. The game would be comprised of super-villain fights on the one hand, and flying missions on the other. Hold out the nunchuk controller to fly (Superman would fly one arm extended instead of both) and tilt it to ascend/descend/etc. You would chase after runaway trains, etc. Of course, you wouldn't have to keep your arm out continually while you flew. I think some investigative missions could work, too. Point the controller at the screen to show a small x-ray circle, and press a button to use heat vision.

[TheBat812]

Originally Posted by DrCosmic

^Exactly.

I still have one concerns, what I was trying to get out earlier. How do you deal with the emotional disconnect of saving someone else? Many veteran gamers know how bad escort missions can be, but even beyond bad AI, is, unless the story makes me care for the characters, I, as the average gamer, really am not too worried about whether they live or die or not.

Take the hostage situations in Arkham Asylum, these were doctors, ambushed, and they were iirc, the only ones in that circumstance, and the one that was actually in danger if not saved correctly turned out to be very important.

How would you get a player to care about all the hostages in Metropolis?

Maybe it could lead up to a villain like the Riddler hostages.

[Rodrigo90]

Kid's being kidnapped by Toyman. Characters from the Daily Planet being kidnapped by someone. As long it's done along the line of the Riddler's side-mission.

[Lead Cenobite]

Originally Posted by Rodrigo90

It would have to be a mix of just the random citizen now and then. But mainly, it would have to include characters who have personality, who have connection to the specific storyline. Cause you are right, picking up a random injured citizen and dropping them off to an ambulance, it isn't very gripping.

I agree that it should be important characters sometimes, but I find Superman saving lives gripping whether or not he's saving known characters.

[Rodrigo90]

Originally Posted by Lead Cenobite

I agree that it should be important characters sometimes, but I find Superman saving lives gripping whether or not he's saving known characters.

Of course. What I really meant was that, it shouldn't be done like Returns. Spider-Man 2 and 3's way of doing it was good, the citizens at least seemed real, with personality.

But it's more entertaining to see characters in side-missions, cause they are bound to do more and say more in the cutscenes. Especially if it's a character from the comics involved, like rescuing Vicki Vale in AC from the snipers.

[DrCosmic]

Gripping? That's a bit of a strong word for picking up someone from a ledge and flying them to the hospital. Perhaps if we were catching them out of the air, or disarming gunmen in bullet time to prevent them from being shot... but even then, these are one-move events, these aren't really puzzles in the sense of...

Also, it is different when there is an immediate danger, and when there's some item to get. I can leave a riddler puzzle as long as I want, I can't really leave someone with a gun to their head the same way, y'know?

[B]

Originally Posted by DrCosmic

Well, I'll take Superman Returns over all of them except for the Death and Return side scroller. That was actual fun. The rest... oy.

Personally I didn't find anything about the Superman Returns game good at all. Flying around at speeds was good & tossing cars & whatnot into the air was amusing.. but your finished with it after less than 10 minutes. The story made little sense, it vaguely followed the movie while at the same time being nothing like the movie.

Personally it ranks as one of the worst games I've ever purchased.

Originally Posted by DrCosmic

I think the idea is that what you're asking can't be done. GTA can barely do GTA, try to add in a bevy of abilities and variety of enemies and environmental catastrophes - and then multiple playstyles on top of that - and even the best developers say "no can do" - decent developers need not apply.

A "smaller" game that doesn't take into account everything about Superman, but only the highlights, the things that make him unique and superior, stands a much better chance of being Arkham-quality if taken up by a high level developer. I mean, that's what they did with Batman, you don't see Bruce Wayne minigame missions or the Batmobile minigame missions or Batman concocting people's weaknesses to use against them. You get the basics: ninja detective with gadgets. They added a *bit* more with Arkham City, but for characters this big "all the possibilities" is what prevents a good game from being made in the first place.

And honestly... how are thugs a challenge to Superman in a video game? Can you imagine how frustrating it would be for Superman to have to use multiple hits to take down a common thug? Or having Thugs dodge his heat vision? I could barely handle Spider-Man having trouble with ordinary thugs, Superman having any challenge would drive me nuts. I think Kratos has more trouble with power up boxes than Superman should have with thugs...

In fact, that's it. Thugs and Car chases are so easily solved by Superman they should basically be animated power up boxes. Also helps accentuate the saving people aspect of Superman.

Personally I'm not a fan of it being a GTA style game ie completely open world & do whatever you want. I'd like to kinda have the game similar to the likes of say Hitman. You are Clark Kent or Superman & your tossed into a level/map of fairly big size, perhaps a section of Metropolis or inside a building that you cannot leave because xyz is happening that you need to stop/investigate.

Now IF an open world style game was achievable with Superman & it could come across well with plenty of things to do, then have at it I wouldn't not buy it because of it. But first & formost I'd like them to start out small'ish much like AA did for Batman & then work their way up.

[DrCosmic]

Originally Posted by B

Personally I didn't find anything about the Superman Returns game good at all. Flying around at speeds was good & tossing cars & whatnot into the air was amusing.. but your finished with it after less than 10 minutes. The story made little sense, it vaguely followed the movie while at the same time being nothing like the movie.

Personally it ranks as one of the worst games I've ever purchased.

I mean, we can come up with a laundry list of things that are wrong with Superman Returns, but what you described is something you found good about the game. Not good enough, perhaps, but still, good.

Personally I'm not a fan of it being a GTA style game ie completely open world & do whatever you want. I'd like to kinda have the game similar to the likes of say Hitman. You are Clark Kent or Superman & your tossed into a level/map of fairly big size, perhaps a section of Metropolis or inside a building that you cannot leave because xyz is happening that you need to stop/investigate.

Now IF an open world style game was achievable with Superman & it could come across well with plenty of things to do, then have at it I wouldn't not buy it because of it. But first & formost I'd like them to start out small'ish much like AA did for Batman & then work their way up.

I think the problem with that is that while you can give narrative cues to stay in a certain place, every great game accompanies this with physical impediments -AA is a great example. Especially if the game isn't exceptionally linear (ie, the player is always directed exactly where they are to go with no distractions/branches/exploration/searching/distractions) then having invisible barriers is a prank on a player who isn't drawn into the story and is waiting for the game mechanics to draw them in.

How do you isolate Superman from a gameplay perspective? Do you restrict him from flying? Mission failure if you leave? Kryptonite fog? lol

And even in a small space, what is there for Superman to do? In the whole of metropolis, or in just a section...

[TheBat812]

It needs to be open world simply because of that reason, the illusion that he can go anywhere. Just create interesting side missions that take advantage of his powers like flight, xray, etc. and link it to a rogues gallery villain like Arkham City did. It's a formula that works for good reason. Not that anybody would ever do this, but how awesome would it be if they released a game that was literally just being Superman in Metropolis with side missions, and they released story content episodically in DLC? Would satisfy both the sensation of being Superman saving people daily, and then STAS type episodes that would be 2-3 hours each with great set pieces. I can dream, can't I...

[DrCosmic]

Well, then you run into a problem... you can't map out the whole planet, so eventually there's an invisible wall somewhere... how do you keep up the illusion for someone that decides to just keep flying.

Also, as you likely know, most people don't have the imagination to create goals for themselves, especially in video games, and would get bored very quickly without a compelling story. Any 'interesting side missions' would be evaluated as the story, and any story DLC as promises, perhaps too little too late.

[Kal-El.9859]

Originally Posted by TheBat812

It needs to be open world simply because of that reason, the illusion that he can go anywhere. Just create interesting side missions that take advantage of his powers like flight, xray, etc. and link it to a rogues gallery villain like Arkham City did. It's a formula that works for good reason. Not that anybody would ever do this, but how awesome would it be if they released a game that was literally just being Superman in Metropolis with side missions, and they released story content episodically in DLC? Would satisfy both the sensation of being Superman saving people daily, and then STAS type episodes that would be 2-3 hours each with great set pieces. I can dream, can't I...

I'd love an open world game along the line of the DC Universe online where new missions open up and you can pick and choose which missions you go on at any time. But at the same time I'd like a movie tie-in game featuring Henry Cavill as Superman. The thing I didn't really like about the Superman Returns video game was that several of the villains popped up over and over again...that and the final villain was a tornado

[B]

Originally Posted by DrCosmic

I mean, we can come up with a laundry list of things that are wrong with Superman Returns, but what you described is something you found good about the game. Not good enough, perhaps, but still, good.

There are good things to be taken out of even the worst of games.

Originally Posted by DrCosmic

I think the problem with that is that while you can give narrative cues to stay in a certain place, every great game accompanies this with physical impediments -AA is a great example. Especially if the game isn't exceptionally linear (ie, the player is always directed exactly where they are to go with no distractions/branches/exploration/searching/distractions) then having invisible barriers is a prank on a player who isn't drawn into the story and is waiting for the game mechanics to draw them in.

How do you isolate Superman from a gameplay perspective? Do you restrict him from flying? Mission failure if you leave? Kryptonite fog? lol

And even in a small space, what is there for Superman to do? In the whole of metropolis, or in just a section...

I'm simply thinking out loud but I'd go with mission failure if you leave a certain zone. There would be no free roaming, each level would be connected by a cut scene that is developing the story/characters & would give you a vague clue as to why Superman is in the middle of Metropolis or why hes with Lois in some abandoned LexCorp warehouse etc.

It wouldn't be a very Superman'ly thing to do if Doomsday was killing people or destroying things & you decide to seperate yourself from him & fly off in the opposite direction. You get the general idea, if something is happening surely there should be mission failure or perhaps the character himself gives a verbal warning/hint towards the player that perhaps he should do xyz.

If & when they make another Superman game, unless they are gonna invest about 5 years of development time into it they should start of small scale & gradually work their way up in terms of scale of free roam & map size much like AA & AC did.

[DrCosmic]

Originally Posted by B

There are good things to be taken out of even the worst of games.

Agreed

I'm simply thinking out loud but I'd go with mission failure if you leave a certain zone. There would be no free roaming, each level would be connected by a cut scene that is developing the story/characters & would give you a vague clue as to why Superman is in the middle of Metropolis or why hes with Lois in some abandoned LexCorp warehouse etc.

It wouldn't be a very Superman'ly thing to do if Doomsday was killing people or destroying things & you decide to seperate yourself from him & fly off in the opposite direction. You get the general idea, if something is happening surely there should be mission failure or perhaps the character himself gives a verbal warning/hint towards the player that perhaps he should do xyz.

If & when they make another Superman game, unless they are gonna invest about 5 years of development time into it they should start of small scale & gradually work their way up in terms of scale of free roam & map size much like AA & AC did.

I mean, that's true, and mission failure is a good start, but at some point the game has to breathe. The player will not always be sitting on life or death circumstances. So how do you, with the gameplay, show the player that they're not supposed to leave Lois and fly to the ocean to pick up an oil tanker to drop on the bad guy. I don't think vague hints will help. A good game, like AA, tells you exactly what you're supposed to do and exactly why you're doing it, and leaves you to figure out how.

But I agree that the scale should be small, so that the game can be made, but the reason I question everyone's suggestions is to highlight how frikkin difficult the game is, and how it really doesn't fit around typical level design. I mean, there's a reason that you don't see flying characters in video games. It removes all platforming, and outdoor level design, and means the only constraint you can use is the enemies.

With Superman the idea is compounded as even indoor level design needs some macguffin to keep him from just plowing through... I haven't come up with, or heard of a good way to confine Superman that isn't frustrating or confusing.

[Deathlok]

How about Kryptonite clouds?

[Lead Cenobite]

Originally Posted by DrCosmic

Well, then you run into a problem... you can't map out the whole planet, so eventually there's an invisible wall somewhere... how do you keep up the illusion for someone that decides to just keep flying.

All you can really do is make it like the GTA games where Metropolis is an island and put the invisible walls a mile or two off the coast, which would dissuade the player from bothering to fly to them, and when you get to them, the game just turns you around.

[Kal-El.9859]

Originally Posted by Lead Cenobite

All you can really do is make it like the GTA games where Metropolis is an island and put the invisible walls a mile or two off the coast, which would dissuade the player from bothering to fly to them, and when you get to them, the game just turns you around.

Kinda like Superman Returns...but I want a grander scope than that. I'd like to be able to travel to other states, countries, outer space and other worlds...I mean HUGE! I know you can't make Superman fly to all these places but that's what the loading screen is for..during transition. It's possible, but do they really want to go the extra mile? No

[DrCosmic]

Yeah, I agree, with Kal, Cenobite, that was the SR game solution, putting the invisible walls away from the action was the best solution they could come up with, but for a character who is about being able to go places, and for a game where there's little reason to focus on the city, I think it made you feel trapped by the limitations of the technology, and constrained by the story or focus of the game.

Honestly, the way I would do it is to use some sort of progressive generation set up to either put an immense amount of distance between the player and the invisible walls, making the travel to them both rewarding in terms of giving them freedom, and discouraging, as there's really nothing to do outside of Metropolis in the countryside to the west, or in the ocean to the east.

Of course, progressive generation comes with its own challenges... namely, no one can fill up a whole immense map, which is why most huge (more than 100 square miles) maps are like driving games where travel is the only gameplay meant to happen in most areas, because they're empty. And of course, you have to get someone who's good at those kinds of algorithms and such.

It's more like the extra 1,000 miles, literally, Kal-El. Not everyone has the ability to make a world that big, and few have the ability to make it fun. See the Superman Returns game for instance.

Another reason why it's so hard to make a good Superman game. I really think that's why flying should be the core mechanic. If that feel really good, then everything else can build off of that.

[Kal-El.9859]

Originally Posted by DrCosmic

Yeah, I agree, with Kal, Cenobite, that was the SR game solution, putting the invisible walls away from the action was the best solution they could come up with, but for a character who is about being able to go places, and for a game where there's little reason to focus on the city, I think it made you feel trapped by the limitations of the technology, and constrained by the story or focus of the game.

Honestly, the way I would do it is to use some sort of progressive generation set up to either put an immense amount of distance between the player and the invisible walls, making the travel to them both rewarding in terms of giving them freedom, and discouraging, as there's really nothing to do outside of Metropolis in the countryside to the west, or in the ocean to the east.

Of course, progressive generation comes with its own challenges... namely, no one can fill up a whole immense map, which is why most huge (more than 100 square miles) maps are like driving games where travel is the only gameplay meant to happen in most areas, because they're empty. And of course, you have to get someone who's good at those kinds of algorithms and such.

It's more like the extra 1,000 miles, literally, Kal-El. Not everyone has the ability to make a world that big, and few have the ability to make it fun. See the Superman Returns game for instance.

Another reason why it's so hard to make a good Superman game. I really think that's why flying should be the core mechanic. If that feel really good, then everything else can build off of that.

I think they need to make it extreme open world like the GTA games. You fly to one point, hit the "A" button or whatever corresponding button and you can travel outside of Metropolis, like say you can go stop a bank robbery in California, stop a mudslide in South America, catch a airplane in Florida,fight Darkseid on Apocalypse...and so on and so forth. Just do the extended traveling during the load screen

[DrCosmic]

That could be interesting, multiple sizeable 'levels' or 'areas' to play in, or perhaps one main area and several smaller 'levels' that are more linear. Could be interesting.

Could make the workload a bit smaller, and could also be more conducive to gameplay "I'm not ready to go there yet" is a lot better message than "I can't go there"

[Kal-El.9859]

the one thing I hated about Superman Returns' video game is that once you beat it, the same lame villains kept popping up. Give me some kind of disaster I have to stop. I don't want to keep fighting the same guys multiple times. And I really didn't like the controls for his powers. That needs to be fixed. I was glad that you didn't have to EARN them, but the constant switching back and forth was a pain

[TheBat812]

Originally Posted by Kal-El.9859

Kinda like Superman Returns...but I want a grander scope than that. I'd like to be able to travel to other states, countries, outer space and other worlds...I mean HUGE! I know you can't make Superman fly to all these places but that's what the loading screen is for..during transition. It's possible, but do they really want to go the extra mile? No

That's unreasonable. It's not that they don't want to go the extra mile, it's just not within their capabilities. Anyways, what's so fun about going to other countries, anyways? Make it story-based, with fun mechanics that makes you feel like Superman - super fast, super strong, super smart.

[Kal-El.9859]

Originally Posted by TheBat812

That's unreasonable. It's not that they don't want to go the extra mile, it's just not within their capabilities. Anyways, what's so fun about going to other countries, anyways? Make it story-based, with fun mechanics that makes you feel like Superman - super fast, super strong, super smart.

It would be fun to go to other countries and other worlds because Superman is most certainly NOT restricted to Metropolis. I for one would like to be able to go help the other people of the world. I think it's well within their capabilities to do, they just don't want to. Give it a story, but like I said, make it mission based like GTA, the Spider-Man games and DCU Online. You choose what missions you go on when you want to go on them and more missions are unlocked upon completion of the previous mission. It is rather simple really

[KRIM]

Wow. How completely ignorant of gaming development. It is "rather simple" to construct open world gameplay involving "states, countries, outer space, and OTHER WORLDS"?! You've got to be s----ing me.

[Kal-El.9859]

Originally Posted by KRIM

Wow. How completely ignorant of gaming development. It is "rather simple" to construct open world gameplay involving "states, countries, outer space, and OTHER WORLDS"?! You've got to be s----ing me.

ok, so maybe not complete open world to where you can openly fly to all those places, but you fly to a certain spot and then it loads the next level, say it be space. You fly to the north west corner of the map and it takes you to another part of the game. If you can go to "The Watchtower", "Metropolis", "Gotham" and other places in DCU Online, you should be able to do the same thing in a platform game. How is that so hard to figure out? And no, I'm not ****ting you

[KRIM]

Originally Posted by Kal-El.9859

ok, so maybe not complete open world to where you can openly fly to all those places, but you fly to a certain spot and then it loads the next level, say it be space. You fly to the north west corner of the map and it takes you to another part of the game. If you can go to "The Watchtower", "Metropolis", "Gotham" and other places in DCU Online, you should be able to do the same thing in a platform game. How is that so hard to figure out? And no, I'm not ****ting you

It's a matter of space and depth. It is possible to design an an entire country in a game, but simultaneously you would likely have a very downsized implementation of everything contained within it. From the NPCs, to environment detail, to object quantities in general. Conversely, a game focused squarely on one urban environment (such as Arkham City) could have far superior detailed components per square inch.

I don't know what your sense of scale is, nor your ideal depth to satisfy any particular territory. But I imagine you wouldn't want scope for the sake of it. You want something to explore. At this point in game development, even the most arduous and aspiring creators in the industry are simply not capable of delivering those vast worlds to meet modern expectation of what that size and scale could entail.

I'd say we're at least two gaming generations away from competently reaching that sort of potential.