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Old 10-14-2011, 06:45 PM   #1
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Dry What was Mark Waid's issues with the 1986 retelling?

Okay, so it may or may not be well known that Mark Waid had problems with John Byrne's 1986 retelling of Supes' origin in the MAN OF STEEL origin. He tried unsuccessfully IMO to erase the Byrne stuff.

What were those problems he had with it?

And also, who the hell does he think he is? Birthright was just okay and the MOS miniseries is like, legendary! The art is MOS is way better and the story is a lot better.

So, what were his issues?

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Old 10-14-2011, 07:32 PM   #2
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Default Re: What was Mark Waid's issues with the 1986 retelling?

His biggest issue was that Byrne replaced the real Superman with a lame impostor. Which is understandable.

And "The Man of Steel" isn't even remotely as good as Birthright. The latter one is a story, the MOS is just... well... just a few single issues with almost no connection at all.

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Old 10-15-2011, 01:08 AM   #3
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Default Re: What was Mark Waid's issues with the 1986 retelling?

Mark Waid's issue with The Man of Steel was simply that John Byrne replaced the Silver Age/Bronze Age Mort Weisinger Superman that Mark Waid loved with an updated version of Superman that was closer to the Golden Age Superman, instead of the Silver Age/Bronze Age Superman from Mark Waid's childhood. Mark Waid admitted, "I was one of the wailers years ago when Byrne did his stint." http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=2595

There is no more "real" version of Superman than the original Golden Age version that was conceived and created by Jerry Siegel and Joe Shuster. And The Man of Steel returned Superman closer to the Golden Age roots, while also updating Superman for a contemporary audience.
The Man of Steel restored Superman's uniqueness as the Sole Survivor of Krypton. In the Golden Age this was the standard.

With Silver Age Mort Weisinger concepts of Krypto the Super Dog, Beppo the Super Monkey, Kara Zor-El Supergirl, the Argo City citizens in the Survival Zone, and millions of Kryptonians in the Bottled City of Kandor, etc., in the Silver Age/Bronze Age one began to wonder if anybody really died when Krypton exploded.
The Man of Steel returned to Clark's powers gradually developing, multiplying as he grew over the years, as Jerry Siegel had intended.

The Silver Age/Bronze Age Mort Weisinger Superman feels like a "stranger in a strange land", and pines for Krypton, says "Great Rao" and spends his spare time in a Fortress shrine to Krypton in solitude. The Golden Age Superman by Jerry Siegel didn't pine for Krypton, he was upbeat, smiling, secure hero, with a sly sense of humor, and toyed with criminals humorously.



John Byrne brought that back in The Man of Steel.

John Byrne had Clark Kent display some confidence, exhibiting some aggressiveness and bravery again, which Siegel had Clark display in the Golden Age.

John Byrne scaled back Superman's powers closer to the original Golden Age power level, giving Superman limitations again. He couldn't time travel, he couldn't move planets around, or survive without any air indefinitely, he had to noticeably strain and struggle against super-powered foes. The Man of Steel brought back Lois as a tough, competitive, aggressive reporter, making her a much more independent and sane character again than the Silver Age/Bronze Age Weisinger Lois spending her life trying to get Superman to marry her and prove that Clark Kent and Superman are the same person. As soon as DC gave Siegel and Shuster the boot the Lois who was supposed to be Clark’s independent, feisty, strong-willed rival reporter competing for stories was turned into a woman intent on proving that Clark Kent is Superman.
Superman was originally a champion of the oppressed versus corruption of the law at the highest levels, rich corrupt LexCorp Lex Luthor hiding behind a mask of respectability was a return to that concept. The Man of Steel brought Luthor closer to his roots. Luthor was originally a red haired dictator - a ruler who assumes sole and absolute power. He wore business suits. Here is Luthor in Superman #4 (1940), written by Jerry Siegel and drawn by Paul Cassidy.
[

Luthor in The Man of Steel was red haired and wore business suits and was certainly a ruler assuming sole and absolute power. He was also a con-man. He had scientists working for him and Jerry Siegel's Golden Age Luthor had a scientific lab assistant working for him. Luthor originally met Superman as an adult and hated Superman because he's powers were a threat. The Man of Steel was a return to that concept.
Why is bring a character back to it's roots good? To get back closer to what it was meant to be. It does make sense from a entertainment and business stand point to get back closer to what made Superman such a hit in the first place. The Man of Steel realized that and presented Superman, Lois, Luthor closer to Jerry Siegel's creation.

"I have taken my standard 'Back to the Basics' approach," John Byrne says about his work on Superman. "Everything that has accumulated over the years has been the result of people trying to do something different. So now I'm taking Superman back to the basics, and that becomes different because it hasn't been done in so long. It's basically Siegel and Shuster's Superman meets the Fleischer Superman in 1986."

The Man of Steel has an obvious connection and continuity throughout. It's the modern age updating of Superman's origin and big events in his history, like his first meeting Lois, Luthor, Batman, etc., for a contemporary audience.
Birthright is a lot of Silver Age nostalgia and pandering to the Smallville TV show fans. There is no need for Birthright, Superman: Secret Origin and the current rebooted Action Comics to exist. Like Batman: Year One (1986), if it isn't broken, don't fix it, and The Man of Steel (1986) wasn't broken.
I always highly recommend The Man of Steel...

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Old 10-15-2011, 06:00 AM   #4
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Default Re: What was Mark Waid's issues with the 1986 retelling?

Forget everything theMan-Bat has just said. He's so wrong. Byrne Superman is not the Golden Age version at all. Not at all. It's a lie.

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Old 10-15-2011, 06:47 AM   #5
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Default Re: What was Mark Waid's issues with the 1986 retelling?

Let me see. Do I listen to the well thought out and easily communicated argument presented for Byrne's vision or do I just listen to Potsie over here who's rebuttal consists of, "Oh yeah?!"

Hmmm. I'm gonna go with theMan Bat on this one.




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Old 10-15-2011, 12:13 PM   #6
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Default Re: What was Mark Waid's issues with the 1986 retelling?

So it sounds like Mark Waid is nothing more than a crybaby silver-age apologist! For me, Birthright hit on the main points but wasn't as well rounded as Byrne's work. The additions of Birthright were long and drawn out as it relied on too much dialogue to explain certain things.

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Old 10-16-2011, 05:47 AM   #7
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Default Re: What was Mark Waid's issues with the 1986 retelling?

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Let me see. Do I listen to the well thought out and easily communicated argument presented for Byrne's vision or do I just listen to Potsie over here who's rebuttal consists of, "Oh yeah?!"

Hmmm. I'm gonna go with theMan Bat on this one.



1938 | Byrne
Clark Kent as a disguise | Clark Kent as the real person
Social crusader | Government stooge

Big difference and no need to elaborate any further.

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Old 10-17-2011, 02:51 AM   #8
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Default Re: What was Mark Waid's issues with the 1986 retelling?

In The Man of Steel, Clark Kent, the real person, creates the new Clark Kent as a disguise to hide his super self with glasses, his hair slicked back and stoops a tad.

The Golden Age Superman was a social crusader and also was iconically very patriotic, aiding service men and fighting for his country was important to him.



The Modern Age Superman by John Byrne was no more a "Government stooge" than the patriotic Golden Age version. He was a crusader for social justice, he was dealing with corruption in the big business establishment in high places against Luthor and LexCorp, and was not hesitate to get himself involved in a social and political issue. He was shown at the White House discussing and debating with President Ronald Reagan in Legends (1987).

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Old 10-20-2011, 12:36 AM   #9
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Default Re: What was Mark Waid's issues with the 1986 retelling?

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The Golden Age Superman by Jerry Siegel didn't pine for Krypton
Well to be fair, the Golden Age Superman didn't even know he was from Krypton until the late 40's when Kryptonite was finally brought into the comics.


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Old 10-20-2011, 03:00 AM   #10
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Default Re: What was Mark Waid's issues with the 1986 retelling?

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So, what were his issues?
Like most things, it's much easier to attack something in hindsight. You can pick every little thing apart and say what "you would've done" to make it better. I've never been under the impression that Mark Waid is a very positive guy. He seems to have this stigma associated with him. That doesn't just come out of thin air. IMO you don't trample on a guy like Byrne, or try and totally undo what he's done. If you wanna put your own spin on something, that's fine, but be faithful to the greats. Mark Waid could've easily done his own thing with Superman and said absolute zero about Byrne's work. There's no need to tear down someone else's legacy from 20+ years prior to make yourself feel better, or talk up your own project. That's not the way someone like Waid, who's supposed to be a class act, should behave.

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Old 10-20-2011, 03:10 AM   #11
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Default Re: What was Mark Waid's issues with the 1986 retelling?

Well, to be fair, Byrne's a douche and would have done the same thing.

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Old 10-20-2011, 03:44 AM   #12
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Default Re: What was Mark Waid's issues with the 1986 retelling?

LOL, you're probably right. I certainly wasn't defending Byrne over Waid or anything. It just seems to me that if you don't like someone's work you don't call them out on it... Show a little grace and say something like "Here's what I don't like about Superman since 1986 and here's what I'm changing"... not hard.

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Old 10-22-2011, 12:51 AM   #13
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Default Re: What was Mark Waid's issues with the 1986 retelling?

It just seems to me that the 1986 stuff and on well into the 90's did this thing with Superman where he was made very contemporary and fresh but kept what was always so strong about the character since his inception. I think after Jurgens, Stern, Ordway etc. kind of left the character, something just hasn't been the same. I can't put my finger on it.

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Old 10-30-2011, 09:31 AM   #14
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Default Re: What was Mark Waid's issues with the 1986 retelling?

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Well to be fair, the Golden Age Superman didn't even know he was from Krypton until the late 40's when Kryptonite was finally brought into the comics.
That's right. The Golden Age Superman, written by Jerry Siegel, didn't even know about Krypton. Superman in the comics didn't learn of Krypton and Kryptonite until Superman #61 (1949), written by Bill Finger. And the Modern Age Superman in The Man of Steel, written by John Byrne, also didn't even know about Krypton until years after he had been crimefighting as Superman (in The Man of Steel #6 (1986)), and he discovers what Kryptonite is (in Superman #1 (1987)) only a few weeks after discovering about Krypton (in The Man of Steel #6 (1986)). In Superman #1 (1987), Superman tells Lois, "I'm not from Earth. I grew up here, but I'm native to a world called Krypton. I only discovered the truth myself, a few weeks ago."

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Old 11-03-2011, 01:34 PM   #15
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Default Re: What was Mark Waid's issues with the 1986 retelling?

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And also, who the hell does he think he is?
Mark Waid is generally regarded as one of the best comic book writers of the past 20 years, has served as an editor, and editor in chief for various comic book companies, and has written several works/runs that are consistently listed as some of the best in recent memory.

So yeah, I think he has the credibility to say if he likes or doesn't like a comic story.

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Old 11-03-2011, 01:55 PM   #16
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Default Re: What was Mark Waid's issues with the 1986 retelling?

birthright had a few good moments, but overall was a very poor superman story and far from waid's best work, who is generally a very solid writer. man of steel was far superior, in my opinion.

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Old 11-03-2011, 01:58 PM   #17
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Default Re: What was Mark Waid's issues with the 1986 retelling?

I think both stories were overrated.

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Old 11-03-2011, 05:37 PM   #18
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Default Re: What was Mark Waid's issues with the 1986 retelling?

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birthright had a few good moments, but overall was a very poor superman story and far from waid's best work, who is generally a very solid writer. man of steel was far superior, in my opinion.
Who the hell do you think you are?! If Mark Waid isn't allowed to criticize anything, I don't think us rank and file guys are either.

Also, 'nubis is right again. Good job.

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Old 11-05-2011, 06:36 PM   #19
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Default Re: What was Mark Waid's issues with the 1986 retelling?

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Who the hell do you think you are?! If Mark Waid isn't allowed to criticize anything, I don't think us rank and file guys are either.

Also, 'nubis is right again. Good job.
huh?

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Old 11-05-2011, 08:44 PM   #20
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Default Re: What was Mark Waid's issues with the 1986 retelling?

Sarcasm, hon.

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Old 11-08-2011, 01:31 AM   #21
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Default Re: What was Mark Waid's issues with the 1986 retelling?

Has any character had their origin retold more than Superman ( if there is I can't think of who). I just try to take the best of each interpretation. I think he works best when he is written as a man known as Clark Kent who assumes the identity of Superman to use his abilities as Earth's greatest hero while maintaining a life that allows him to stay as much a part of our Earthly culture as possible and to insure the safety of his loved ones. While his heritage is Kryptonian (of which he is proud) he was raised an American citizen of the planet Earth. He owes who he is just as much to Jonathan and Martha as he does to Jor-El and Lara. Superman's desire is to be one of us.
I'm trying to be as optimistic as possible about this reboot as I can, though I do hate the costume redesign and the insinuation that the love triangle of Superman/Lois/Clark is no longer in effect leaves me weary. Bryan Singer put it best when he said "Superman is a strong enough character to survive his own history". If this new stuff does not work out we'll eventually go back to what does.

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Old 11-08-2011, 09:11 AM   #22
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Has any character had their origin retold more than Superman ( if there is I can't think of who). I just try to take the best of each interpretation. I think he works best when he is written as a man known as Clark Kent who assumes the identity of Superman to use his abilities as Earth's greatest hero while maintaining a life that allows him to stay as much a part of our Earthly culture as possible and to insure the safety of his loved ones. While his heritage is Kryptonian (of which he is proud) he was raised an American citizen of the planet Earth. He owes who he is just as much to Jonathan and Martha as he does to Jor-El and Lara. Superman's desire is to be one of us.
I'm trying to be as optimistic as possible about this reboot as I can, though I do hate the costume redesign and the insinuation that the love triangle of Superman/Lois/Clark is no longer in effect leaves me weary. Bryan Singer put it best when he said "Superman is a strong enough character to survive his own history". If this new stuff does not work out we'll eventually go back to what does.

Very well said. What are your opinions on Birthright!

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Old 11-11-2011, 04:38 PM   #23
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Default Re: What was Mark Waid's issues with the 1986 retelling?

So sorry this response took o long; busy with work, family and all. As far as Birthright goes I actually like it the least compared to the others. Peace Corp. Clark just did not resonate with me. I liked the depiction of Lex better in Secret Origin too. The Krypton references were the best aspects of the story. As it stands now I may end up liking it better than the new interpretation though; we'll see (keeping an open mind).

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Old 11-20-2011, 02:45 PM   #24
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Default Re: What was Mark Waid's issues with the 1986 retelling?

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His biggest issue was that Byrne replaced the real Superman with a lame impostor. Which is understandable.

And "The Man of Steel" isn't even remotely as good as Birthright. The latter one is a story, the MOS is just... well... just a few single issues with almost no connection at all.
Even though it was Man of Steel that I read first from the comics and really got me into comics I agree with the bottom part of your post 100%

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Old 11-21-2011, 05:36 PM   #25
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Default Re: What was Mark Waid's issues with the 1986 retelling?

John Byrne is responsible for everyone thinking Superman is a boring character.

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