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Old 11-06-2011, 11:10 AM   #76
Thebumwhowalks
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Default Re: Simon Kinberg Penning First Class Sequel

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Originally Posted by Drz View Post
i'm just happy that the sequel is real. =)
It is just a movie bigman, haha, it's not as if there are really such things as training grounds where some people make the grade to be superheroes.
Imagine what that would be like in real life, the amount of jealousy that would arise, haha, esp if there was someone who was guaranteed to be a superhero, whereas the majority wouldn't get the chance.
esp if that one was gonna be immortal too, heehee.

eh, one thing is for sure, one way or another, I'm not putting myself through the headaches i am going through right now, I don't need to do or be anywhere I don't want to be. If I can't relax watching the movie, forget it.

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Old 11-06-2011, 11:57 AM   #77
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Im not worried by Simon Kinberg writing the sequel - i doubt his script will not have tweaking from Matthew Vaughan and Bryan Singer if they continue as excutive producers.

Also they got alot right with First Class... Maybe Fox realised the errors of there ways with Last Stand and Wolverine that was put right in first class so im thinking maybe they wont make as meny mistakes.

Also i see First Class 2 being like X2 (They only introduced 3 new mutants but the
story didnt really focus around them.)

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Old 11-06-2011, 02:05 PM   #78
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Default Re: Simon Kinberg Penning First Class Sequel

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Originally Posted by merbass View Post
So you didn't like X-men. X-men United ?
I actually preferred X1 to X2. X2 bored me to tears and it felt like it dragged on forever. The X series in general didn't do much for me until XFC came along.

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Old 11-06-2011, 04:06 PM   #79
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Default Re: Simon Kinberg Penning First Class Sequel

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Let's stick to talking about Singer's two X-Men films, which is what we were talking about originally, not X3(which he had nothing to do with) or Superman Returns.
Funnily enough, it was due to Singer's handling of Magneto that made the studio think there would be demand for a Magneto solo film, as he was such a popular character, the plan for which morphed into the FC story.
I wasn't talking about x3, I was talking about X-Men. I used to love that movie but after XMFC it's barely watchable for me :/.
I will admit Magneto was one of the more compelling characters of the film but I really give that credit to Sir Ian, not so much Singer.

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Aye, Xavier was not as interesting in the Singer films, but I'd say that was obviously because he was stuck in a wheelchair, and not able to be on the frontlines. I have already complained on the boards about the fact he was put into the chair already.
Xavier's disability is utterly irrelevant to his intrigue as a character and I'm actually annoyed and possibly even offended at that implication. X1-2 Charles (because X3 does not exist to me) was boring because he was far too saintly. His character appeared to be all-knowing and all-compassionate. The end.

XMFC made him interesting NOT BECAUSE HE WAS ABLE TO WALK but because of the young man he was. He's a flawed character. The first times we meet him as an adult he's getting wasted and using his powers to get laid. And later we see that while he certainly seems to have near-endless compassion, he's kind of arrogant, assumes he knows what's best for everyone, and if the deleted scenes are any indication, a man with no qualms about crossing lines and who is also on occasion kind of a jerk. Basically, he's HUMAN. Which makes him far more interesting.

So yes, I find it a little unbelievable that you credit his mobility for making him interesting. It's irrelevant. If anything, his newfound disability in the next film will make him even MORE interesting as we see him struggle with it. Sainthood doesn't come automatically when you lose your legs. He's got to earn it.

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But the Singer movies had just as interesting arcs with Wolverine and Rogue, as well as Magneto still being a damn compelling character.
Wolverine was interesting because he was the main focus of the film. He was one of about 3-4 characters between X1-2 who got real back story. And again, despite her arc, I still find MovieRogue to be pretty damn boring. I did love Iceman's story with his family, and Pyro was ok. But saying Jean and Cyclops got development through the love triangle is just not true at all. If anything it reduced them to 2D characters who were simply there to further Wolverine's neverending(literally) story.

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They are not Xavier/Magneto films, which is the way you are talking about them, they are X-Men films, and I would say that the regular X-Men were pretty bland in FC, they had no real interesting character traits really, apart from Hank, and Mystique(whose character arc originated from the Singer verse).
Mystique's character "arc" doesn't really originate in the Singer verse. Mystique is a 2D henchman in X1-2 whose character appears to be that she is extremely sexual, cold, and hates humans because they hated her for looking different. There is no arc there whatsoever. It's Vaughn who gave her an arc, an arc that they will have to do a looooot to in order to make her the creature she is in later films.

Hank aside the other X-kids could definitely have used more development but the great thing is that if Vaughn comes back and sticks to the plan with only one new character in the sequel, there will be lots of time to give Havok and Banshee more screentime. If they're doing comic canon stuff and Nightcrawler is Mystique and Azazel's son, they'll probably expand on the latter as well. Personally I'm not interested in Angel or Riptide and thanks to January Jones' performance I actually secretly hope Emma Frost spends the entire movie stranded on an island. Or maybe locked in one of Stryker's cages.

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Exactly, and if he feels he can't surpass XM:FC, he won't do it, it will be a hard one to surpass, as the fall of Magneto was so compelling, as well as the friendship between him and Xavier breaking down.
He's already expressed interest in the sequel, comparing it like Batman Begins and Dark Knight. The first movie establishes the characters, the second movie is for taking things darker and getting REALLY into the good stuff. If anything this sequel has extraordinary potential to be more interesting with all the struggles the characters have to go through. Charles adjusting to his disability. Erik and Raven learning about it, Erik trying to lead a band of mutants that used to stand behind the man who killed his mother. Beast coming to terms with his new form, Mystique becoming more confident and (assuming this is a prequel) slowly turning into the character she is in the later flicks. And don't forget, Erik and Charles aren't enemies yet! They want different things for sure, and Erik leaving Charles injured on a beach was a pretty dick move, but they're not enemies. The sequel isn't going to be a Brotherhood vs Xavier's kids movie. If anything I see them teaming up again to take down a new baddie and their relationship REALLY starting to disintegrate. There is SOOO much to address I really can't see Vaughn saying no. If he did, it'd definitely be over contract terms. Not because he's not up for it.

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Old 11-06-2011, 07:01 PM   #80
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Default Re: Simon Kinberg Penning First Class Sequel

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Kinberg did all his work under Matthew Vaughn's supervision. Before Vaughn ran and quit two weeks before filming started.
I never knew that. So part of the blame should be thrown on Vaughn as well I guess. I wonder if he got lucky with First Class or just sat back and let the new writers do their thing for that one.

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Old 11-07-2011, 02:13 AM   #81
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X-men the last stand was a mess from the beginning. No matter who directed it. There would be no Cyclops, Mystique and the stories had to focus on Phoenix and the cure !

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Old 11-07-2011, 06:34 AM   #82
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I'm just happy to hear that they're seriously considering a sequel. I think it's a tad early to worry about the script when the actual shooting script might bear little resemblance to the initial one.

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Old 11-07-2011, 07:22 AM   #83
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I wasn't talking about x3, I was talking about X-Men. I used to love that movie but after XMFC it's barely watchable for me :/.
No, you mentioned X-Men 3 in that post, you said that Xavier bored you in XM1 and XM3.


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Xavier's disability is utterly irrelevant to his intrigue as a character and I'm actually annoyed and possibly even offended at that implication. X1-2 Charles (because X3 does not exist to me) was boring because he was far too saintly. His character appeared to be all-knowing and all-compassionate. The end.

XMFC made him interesting NOT BECAUSE HE WAS ABLE TO WALK but because of the young man he was. He's a flawed character. The first times we meet him as an adult he's getting wasted and using his powers to get laid. And later we see that while he certainly seems to have near-endless compassion, he's kind of arrogant, assumes he knows what's best for everyone, and if the deleted scenes are any indication, a man with no qualms about crossing lines and who is also on occasion kind of a jerk. Basically, he's HUMAN. Which makes him far more interesting.

So yes, I find it a little unbelievable that you credit his mobility for making him interesting. It's irrelevant. If anything, his newfound disability in the next film will make him even MORE interesting as we see him struggle with it. Sainthood doesn't come automatically when you lose your legs. He's got to earn it.
Don't try to pull that PC crap on me, the fact of the matter is that Patrick Stewart is a big name, and he expected a certain amount of screentime, so in X2 you had all of these scenes with him trapped in that psychic mind game thing with the little girl, and they were really nowhere as compelling as the other dramatic or action orientated scenes in the movie. The fact of the matter is that you are very limited in what you can do with a wheelchair bound character in an action orientated film in comparison to the other characters.

Sure, in a sequel to FC they will probably do that idea of Xavier locked in a mind battle with Frost or whoever, but the fact is they are now limited to what they can do with the character in a movie like this, and he will be absent from all the action.
I have seen a few people on the boards saying they were disapointed that Charles got put in a wheelchiar so soon, esp if they are going to do a trilogy of films, so why would that be?
Because we all know that the character is now limited in what he can bring to an action orientated movie like this.
It was great seeing him on the frontlines in FC's final act, unlike in X1 where he was comatose in the third act, X2 where he was a guy who had to be rescued, and X3 where he was absent from the movie altogether.
The fact of the matter is, if he were in a wheelchair for the duration of XMFC, he would have been absent from the Russian mansion attack, and the final showdown, he would have been at home washing his tights.


and i don't think a character has to be flawed to be interesting, but I do take your point that those character traits were good to see in the early Xavier of course they were, although the stuff with him being insensitive about Mystique's appearance seemed shoehorned in there just to give more weight to her leaving his gang for Magneto's. That seemed very at odds with the other things he was preaching about in the film, which was basically the same ethos he was going on about in the Singer flicks.


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Wolverine was interesting because he was the main focus of the film. He was one of about 3-4 characters between X1-2 who got real back story. And again, despite her arc, I still find MovieRogue to be pretty damn boring. I did love Iceman's story with his family, and Pyro was ok. But saying Jean and Cyclops got development through the love triangle is just not true at all. If anything it reduced them to 2D characters who were simply there to further Wolverine's neverending(literally) story.
even if Cyclops was only involved for the most part by proxy, the love triangle angle yeiled good drama, not least the scene in the forest in X2 between Logan and Jean.

Go look at the extras on the X-Men SE dvd, you'll see a good example of Singer's thorough directing, and why that scene worked so well.
Famke Janseen is kind of stifling a laugh, and not taking it seriously, and Singer is reminding her of where the characters are at, what is going through their minds emotionally at that point in the movie, in order to bring dramatic weight to the scene, and he got it, it worked perfectly, just as real as any straight quality drama.

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Mystique's character "arc" doesn't really originate in the Singer verse. Mystique is a 2D henchman in X1-2 whose character appears to be that she is extremely sexual, cold, and hates humans because they hated her for looking different. There is no arc there whatsoever. It's Vaughn who gave her an arc, an arc that they will have to do a looooot to in order to make her the creature she is in later films.
No, they joined the dots with the two pivotal scenes with Mystique in the Singer films that established who Mystique was, the demons that resulted from her mutation that drove her.
Her... 'People like you are the reason I was afraid to go to school as a child.' line in X1...

and 'Because we shouldn't have to...(hide what we look like)' line to Nightcrawler in X2.

So, the character arc had already been established that she had real problems with the way she looked, but eventually got to the point where she didn't want to hide what she looked like and stopped giving a crap.

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Hank aside the other X-kids could definitely have used more development but the great thing is that if Vaughn comes back and sticks to the plan with only one new character in the sequel, there will be lots of time to give Havok and Banshee more screentime. If they're doing comic canon stuff and Nightcrawler is Mystique and Azazel's son, they'll probably expand on the latter as well. Personally I'm not interested in Angel or Riptide and thanks to January Jones' performance I actually secretly hope Emma Frost spends the entire movie stranded on an island. Or maybe locked in one of Stryker's cages.
Aye, i know, there is lots of potential scope for the films, all I was saying was that given the nature of that film's story, it will be difficult to top.



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And don't forget, Erik and Charles aren't enemies yet! They want different things for sure, and Erik leaving Charles injured on a beach was a pretty dick move, but they're not enemies. The sequel isn't going to be a Brotherhood vs Xavier's kids movie. If anything I see them teaming up again to take down a new baddie and their relationship REALLY starting to disintegrate. There is SOOO much to address I really can't see Vaughn saying no. If he did, it'd definitely be over contract terms. Not because he's not up for it.
eh, they are now established as enemies pretty much, the fight on the beach signified that, it was the first fight that was along the same lines as every other one they had in the other movies(and comic books).
Sure, there will be times of a common enemy, but as we saw in X2, even when Magneto joins against a common foe, he still has his agenda of destruction.


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Old 11-07-2011, 10:22 AM   #84
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Uhhh have you seen a comic with Emma Frost in it? It was a movie based in the 60s...women were thought of as lesser and objectified. One was a stripper who didn't take her clothes off at all, one was a human who did it once, one was naked in the first 3 movies, and the last woman is a sexpot in the comics. I don't see your point other than Moira doing it once at the casino.
Uhhh...yes, I have seen Emma Frost, and I totally get that she is a "sexpot." But let's be serious--most women in comics are wearing less-than-practical attire, so you could name dozens others that have done that same.

I didn't really mind having a seductress in the movie, but every single woman ended up either naked or using sex to get something. Raven was the only one where I really felt her "naked" moment meant something (and I have no quarrels with her being naked in the first three movies--it's for practicality, not sex).

I think the worst scenes were: 1) Moira--it was so convenient to have her strip and it actually dumbed down that scene--and 2) was Emma seducing the Russian General. She might be a sexpot, but with all her powers, she has to resort to stripping down to her undies in order to manipulate this guy?

Sex is a trivial power; I'm going to stand up for the men and say that most are too smart to be manipulated by a sexy woman. This movie was very smart, but having the scenes where the women got naked and the men gawked and drooled, was so stupid, it was distracting.

And yes, it's the 60's and women are objectified and believed to be lesser. There were great scenes showing that--Emma getting Shaw ice; Moira's last scene with the CIA--all of these were great examples and worked so well. So why are they further pushing the stereotype that the only power women have is through sex instead of actually giving these women clever problems to solve?

Like I said, I expect that from a Bond movie. This isn't Bond; it's X-men. Giving a little homage to Bond is just fine, but they over-did it. Hopefully, that will be toned down in the next film. That's all I'm sayin'.

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Old 11-07-2011, 11:05 AM   #85
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No, you mentioned X-Men 3 in that post, you said that Xavier bored you in XM1 and XM3.
I went back and doublechecked my post. What I actually wrote was X1-X3, implying X2 as well. I actually should have written X1-X2 as I loathe X3 so much that I don't even consider it canon to the movieverse and thus hate discussing it at all. That said the one Xavier line that stands out for me in that one is when he says something to Logan like "I shouldn't have to explain myself, least of all to you". Which was totally out of left field but kind of cool because suddenly saintly Charles is ticked about something, MAD at someone. The first two movies established a guy with endless knowledge and compassion. Personally, I find the all-pure-hero types to be immensely dull. Your insistence on the wheelchair being the problem is naive. X-Men is an "action" series for sure, but XMFC has established that its movies will definitely be more character driven (the action in this movie happens during the Argentinian scene sans-Charles, the 2 minute Russian house invasion --again it was ERIK's portion of this that was interesting, not Charles', the 5 minute attack on HQ, and the last part of the movie with the beach stuff). MOST of the movie isn't heavy on the action and yet it's interesting. Mystique is not involved in any of the action sequences despite the full use of her legs. Does that make her less interesting? Absolutely not. The XMFC line is definitely going to focus more on character trials and tribulations. If all X-Men is to you is action, you can stick with X3.

Keep in mind as well that Charles' power, as McAvoy has lamented in a few interviews, isn't physical ANYWAY. In many of his versions (90s cartoon for example) he's in a wheelchair from the getgo without explanation. It doesn't make him any less interesting. Just as in the episodes where he does walk it doesn't make him any MORE interesting.

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Sure, in a sequel to FC they will probably do that idea of Xavier locked in a mind battle with Frost or whoever, but the fact is they are now limited to what they can do with the character in a movie like this, and he will be absent from all the action.
I highly doubt he will be absent from all the action. If anything I can see him trying to get in on it more than ever to prove to himself what he can still do despite newfound limitations. What an incredible story arc that will be. He's still a young man with energy. I think the only thing that will limit him is what he feels he can't do. Which considering his arrogance, won't be much.

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I have seen a few people on the boards saying they were disapointed that Charles got put in a wheelchiar so soon, esp if they are going to do a trilogy of films, so why would that be?
Because we all know that the character is now limited in what he can bring to an action orientated movie like this.
Because it's a lot to throw in in one movie, and there is less of a buildup to the heartbreak. I really doubt this movie was ever truly intended to be a trilogy, despite what they say. Fox had no faith in this flick whatsoever. If they had, they wouldn't have rushed all the key elements. Charles and Erik would have remained friends after Shaw, the friendship under strain by the end and really disintegrating in the sequel. Raven would also not have left her brother to die. They were trying to tie this ONE film to the other 4 as best as possible while still leaving some holes of lesser importance open.


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It was great seeing him on the frontlines in FC's final act, unlike in X1 where he was comatose in the third act, X2 where he was a guy who had to be rescued, and X3 where he was absent from the movie altogether.
The fact of the matter is, if he were in a wheelchair for the duration of XMFC, he would have been absent from the Russian mansion attack, and the final showdown, he would have been at home washing his tights.
Physically, what did Charles do on the beach that was so actiony and impressive that he could not have done in a wheelchair? The only thing I can think of is when he runs and tackles Erik. Everything else he could have done sitting down. Your argument is moot.

Charles is not the kind of character in this movie to just sit back and let others do the work for him. He would have gone to the beach, wheelchair be damned.

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and i don't think a character has to be flawed to be interesting, but I do take your point that those character traits were good to see in the early Xavier of course they were, although the stuff with him being insensitive about Mystique's appearance seemed shoehorned in there just to give more weight to her leaving his gang for Magneto's. That seemed very at odds with the other things he was preaching about in the film, which was basically the same ethos he was going on about in the Singer flicks.
Characters should have flaws to be interesting, ESPECIALLY superheroes. It's how we can relate to them. It makes them tangible. Erik is a huge fan favorite in XMFC. Why do you think that is? It's not just because Fassbender is incredibly good looking. It's because his character is so tragic and FUBAR.

Charles' thing about his sister's appearance wasn't shoehorned. There's a really fantastic article about the Charles/Raven relationship that I have to find again that offers so many interesting points about Charles and why he is the way he is with Raven. He may be magnanimous but he's still scared as hell (at least initially) that mutants are going to get found out. That's why he wants Raven to look normal in public. He's not offended by her blue form at ALL though, as you see them snuggling while she's blue and he's not uncomfortable about it. When she goes to him naked in the kitchen, he freaks out because she is his sister and is NAKED IN FRONT OF HIM, which she tragically misinterprets as him being repulsed by her form. She doesn't see him as an older brother at this point because she's attracted to him, it makes sense that she wouldn't understand the "families do not stand naked before one another" angle of his freakout. :/

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even if Cyclops was only involved for the most part by proxy, the love triangle angle yeiled good drama, not least the scene in the forest in X2 between Logan and Jean.
That's not good drama to me, that's melodrama. It didn't advance Scott's character at all. Or Wolverine's really.

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No, they joined the dots with the two pivotal scenes with Mystique in the Singer films that established who Mystique was, the demons that resulted from her mutation that drove her.
Her... 'People like you are the reason I was afraid to go to school as a child.' line in X1...
and 'Because we shouldn't have to...(hide what we look like)' line to Nightcrawler in X2.

So, the character arc had already been established that she had real problems with the way she looked, but eventually got to the point where she didn't want to hide what she looked like and stopped giving a crap.
I already brought that up by establishing she was a sexual, cold, and human-hating character. There was no character arc there. She didn't change from the beginning of X1 to the end of X2. That's what a character arc IS. She gave us no reason to sympathize with her. She was just a henchman.

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eh, they are now established as enemies pretty much, the fight on the beach signified that, it was the first fight that was along the same lines as every other one they had in the other movies(and comic books).
Sure, there will be times of a common enemy, but as we saw in X2, even when Magneto joins against a common foe, he still has his agenda of destruction.
They're not enemies, I cannot stress this enough. Their fistfight on the beach doesn't signify that. They're pissed off as hell at each other but don't want to hurt each other (Erik even says so during the fight). To put it simply, at the end of the movie these two men who love each other very deeply got "divorced". Getting divorced doesn't mean that the two parties involved are enemies, it just means that being together isn't working out for them and they need to go their own ways. The Brotherhood and Xavier kids have no direct conflict yet. When Magneto starts offing a bunch of innocent humans and Xavier steps in to stop him, THAT's when they become enemies. Otherwise they are just going down different paths to the same destination.


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Old 11-07-2011, 11:51 AM   #86
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I have a virus and am not up to post-picking, so i will just reply here concisely in one broad stroke to your salient points.

Please don't call me naive just because you do not agree with a point I made.

The simple fact is, the character of Xavier is limited with what they can do with him in a movie if he is in a wheelchair.
The figure he cuts in XMFC is inevitably going to be the more dynamic figure when he is out there in the field, it's not just about him having a couple of flaws(one of which seemed out of character and shoehorned in to make a plotpurpose more viable, as i was saying).
The character in XMFC automatically had the advantage over the one in the Singer flicks because of that fact.

and as for that line to Wolverine in X3, a lot of fans hated that characterisation of Xavier, as if he had suddenly turned into a d*ck, it did seem very out of character from the person from X1 and 2.
and what he was saying was a lot of bs anyway, just because Logan has done crazy things in the past doesn't mean he should step back and let someone else do crazy things.

- I don't see how you couldn't be sympathetic to the character of Mystique in X-Men 1 when she hits out with that line about 'being scared of going to school because of people (like you).'
The fact is, her arc was established in those lines of the Singer flicks, those ideas where the foundation, FC filled in the blanks.
That's all i was saying, give credit where it is due, of course you can only allot a certain amount of screentime to characters in these ensemble movies, and we had to wait for a fourth to get more screentime for Mystique.
It was not really a fault of the Singer films, more a strength, that we could still get a sense of where she had been and what had happened to her from a mere couple of lines, which also gave us the arc in FC.

- and again, saying that a character *has* be flawed to be interesting is a bunch of baloney.
Jesus was pretty flawless right? and whether or not *you* find him interesting, folk are still talking about him 2000 years later.
haha, sorry, that was the first example I could think of, I haven't read enough Superman comics to comment really, but if you go over to any comic book discussion board you will inevitably see fans bemoaning anyone who claims Supes is boring cause he is so perfect.
Now, if you can't see how someone with the power of Superman or Jesus could end up in interesting dramatic situations as they agonise over what descisions to make, and how their descions have an impact on the wolrd, you are very short sighted in your thoughts on drama.
Same with Xavier, just because you preffered the dynamic figure of McAvoy doesn't mean that the character of Xavier was inherantly a boring character just because he did not have the couple of character flaws displayed in that movie, because , let's be honest here, they hardly played a major part in his drama, he was mostly banging on about the same things he was in the Sinegr films.

- and what are you talking about? As far as Xavier was concerned, Magneto *was* about to kill a bunch of innocent people at the end of FC, that was intended to be the start of their great war with each other, i am pretty mind boggled that you don't understand that. You are probably the only person to have seen the movie who thinks this way.

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Old 11-07-2011, 11:58 AM   #87
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I'm just happy the movie is getting a sequel. If Matthew Vaughn returns to the director's seat he can just get the script rewritten, so i'm just happy that the sequel is real. =)
I know i only replied to you in a joking way before, so here is my serious reply...

So, what you are impying/saying here is that no matter what happens, you are happy that Matthew Vaughn will be in the director's seat because then he is the boss and can do pretty much whatever he wants to other folk under his command, in order to get the results he wants?
You just swooped right in there after me with that one. =)

Yeah, given the way he has acted before, I already suspected he would pursue his own agenda no matter how long it took, no matter what he has to do.


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Old 11-07-2011, 12:01 PM   #88
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when do you think Fox will confirm the director?

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Old 11-07-2011, 12:25 PM   #89
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when do you think Fox will confirm the director?
I don't think there is any doubt in anyone's mind that we will have to wait for a while for that, whether it's today, next week, next month, next year, or even in another lifetime!... who knows, we will just have to wait and see.
All i know is, i am not going to get wound up about it all.

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Old 11-07-2011, 03:19 PM   #90
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I will never forgive Penn and Kinberg for their fanboy trolling in 2006.

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Old 11-07-2011, 04:37 PM   #91
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^ This. They pretty much lied to fans continuously right up until last stand came out.

shameful.

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Old 11-07-2011, 05:00 PM   #92
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^ This. They pretty much lied to fans continuously right up until last stand came out.

shameful.
So what did they say that was so radically different from the movie we got?

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Old 11-07-2011, 05:39 PM   #93
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I went back and doublechecked my post. What I actually wrote was X1-X3, implying X2 as well. I actually should have written X1-X2 as I loathe X3 so much that I don't even consider it canon to the movieverse and thus hate discussing it at all. That said the one Xavier line that stands out for me in that one is when he says something to Logan like "I shouldn't have to explain myself, least of all to you". Which was totally out of left field but kind of cool because suddenly saintly Charles is ticked about something, MAD at someone. The first two movies established a guy with endless knowledge and compassion. Personally, I find the all-pure-hero types to be immensely dull. Your insistence on the wheelchair being the problem is naive. X-Men is an "action" series for sure, but XMFC has established that its movies will definitely be more character driven (the action in this movie happens during the Argentinian scene sans-Charles, the 2 minute Russian house invasion --again it was ERIK's portion of this that was interesting, not Charles', the 5 minute attack on HQ, and the last part of the movie with the beach stuff). MOST of the movie isn't heavy on the action and yet it's interesting. Mystique is not involved in any of the action sequences despite the full use of her legs. Does that make her less interesting? Absolutely not. The XMFC line is definitely going to focus more on character trials and tribulations. If all X-Men is to you is action, you can stick with X3.

Keep in mind as well that Charles' power, as McAvoy has lamented in a few interviews, isn't physical ANYWAY. In many of his versions (90s cartoon for example) he's in a wheelchair from the getgo without explanation. It doesn't make him any less interesting. Just as in the episodes where he does walk it doesn't make him any MORE interesting.

I highly doubt he will be absent from all the action. If anything I can see him trying to get in on it more than ever to prove to himself what he can still do despite newfound limitations. What an incredible story arc that will be. He's still a young man with energy. I think the only thing that will limit him is what he feels he can't do. Which considering his arrogance, won't be much.

Because it's a lot to throw in in one movie, and there is less of a buildup to the heartbreak. I really doubt this movie was ever truly intended to be a trilogy, despite what they say. Fox had no faith in this flick whatsoever. If they had, they wouldn't have rushed all the key elements. Charles and Erik would have remained friends after Shaw, the friendship under strain by the end and really disintegrating in the sequel. Raven would also not have left her brother to die. They were trying to tie this ONE film to the other 4 as best as possible while still leaving some holes of lesser importance open.


Physically, what did Charles do on the beach that was so actiony and impressive that he could not have done in a wheelchair? The only thing I can think of is when he runs and tackles Erik. Everything else he could have done sitting down. Your argument is moot.

Charles is not the kind of character in this movie to just sit back and let others do the work for him. He would have gone to the beach, wheelchair be damned.

Characters should have flaws to be interesting, ESPECIALLY superheroes. It's how we can relate to them. It makes them tangible. Erik is a huge fan favorite in XMFC. Why do you think that is? It's not just because Fassbender is incredibly good looking. It's because his character is so tragic and FUBAR.

Charles' thing about his sister's appearance wasn't shoehorned. There's a really fantastic article about the Charles/Raven relationship that I have to find again that offers so many interesting points about Charles and why he is the way he is with Raven. He may be magnanimous but he's still scared as hell (at least initially) that mutants are going to get found out. That's why he wants Raven to look normal in public. He's not offended by her blue form at ALL though, as you see them snuggling while she's blue and he's not uncomfortable about it. When she goes to him naked in the kitchen, he freaks out because she is his sister and is NAKED IN FRONT OF HIM, which she tragically misinterprets as him being repulsed by her form. She doesn't see him as an older brother at this point because she's attracted to him, it makes sense that she wouldn't understand the "families do not stand naked before one another" angle of his freakout. :/

That's not good drama to me, that's melodrama. It didn't advance Scott's character at all. Or Wolverine's really.

I already brought that up by establishing she was a sexual, cold, and human-hating character. There was no character arc there. She didn't change from the beginning of X1 to the end of X2. That's what a character arc IS. She gave us no reason to sympathize with her. She was just a henchman.

They're not enemies, I cannot stress this enough. Their fistfight on the beach doesn't signify that. They're pissed off as hell at each other but don't want to hurt each other (Erik even says so during the fight). To put it simply, at the end of the movie these two men who love each other very deeply got "divorced". Getting divorced doesn't mean that the two parties involved are enemies, it just means that being together isn't working out for them and they need to go their own ways. The Brotherhood and Xavier kids have no direct conflict yet. When Magneto starts offing a bunch of innocent humans and Xavier steps in to stop him, THAT's when they become enemies. Otherwise they are just going down different paths to the same destination.
Hey, Blueserenity. Just a couple things about your post--first, I agree with most of what you've said or at least get where you're coming from. I think Charles should be included in the action--wheelchair be damned--if you have creative writers, they can find ways to include a super-powered telepath into the story (I'm not saying that's what we'll get, but...)

I don't think Erik and Charles are enemies now, either. I'm not sure I'm quite feeling the divorce analogy, BUT I think I understand what you're saying. I think their relationship is more complicated then, "Oh, hey--we're enemies now. Let's try to kill each other." I think Erik will continue going further into darkness and eventually Charles will reach the point where he realizes that he and his team will have to stop him DESPITE the fact that Charles cares for Erik and vice-versa. Makes better drama that way, anyway.

And I also agree that good, well-rounded characters, should have flaws. They should have moments of weakness and definitely conflict, but it doesn't mean they have to be *****. Someone could be scatter-brained or naive, and those could be considered flaws (given the situation).

But one thing I cannot agree on...I HATE that line from X3. Even before I watched XM:FC and became an Xavier fan, I hated it. "I don't have to explain myself, least of all to you..." is probably the line I hate the most of all the movies. I get what they were trying--to make Xavier a little more human. But that was all-out arrogant and narrow-minded, and the future Xavier is neither. He damn well should explain his actions if he wants Logan or anyone else to follow his lead. Sorry, but I cringe at that.

But I agree on the flawed hero thing overall.

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Old 11-07-2011, 06:18 PM   #94
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Default Re: Simon Kinberg Penning First Class Sequel

Kinberg suggested to Bryan Singer on using the Hellfire Club as villians for First class as
producer.The producer of gossip girl wrote the preSinger script.Kinberg was first to think
of Matthew Vaughn as Director.Plus Kinberg did last minute polishing of the script.He was
key member of First Class team.So this doesn't bother me.We aren't in 2005 anymore.
Hopefully Bryan Singer was Involved In devolping the story Kinberg Is now writing the
screenplay for.The big question remains Is SInger producing and will Matthew Vaughn
return to direct.Considering the story and characters choosen from First Class came from
Singer his return IS a must and getting the Singer and Vaughn combo again would make
one hell of a film again just Like First Class.

I still consider X2 as best of the franchise but First Class I do place ahead of X-Men.It's hard for me to look at Last Stand and Wolverine anymore.Hopefully The Wolverine will be In X-Men,X2,First Class quality.

I would place bets we will defently see following In Sequel

Xavier
Beast
Havok
Banshee
Magneto
Mystique
Emma Frost

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Old 11-07-2011, 10:31 PM   #95
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I have a virus and am not up to post-picking, so i will just reply here concisely in one broad stroke to your salient points.

Please don't call me naive just because you do not agree with a point I made.

The simple fact is, the character of Xavier is limited with what they can do with him in a movie if he is in a wheelchair.
The figure he cuts in XMFC is inevitably going to be the more dynamic figure when he is out there in the field, it's not just about him having a couple of flaws(one of which seemed out of character and shoehorned in to make a plotpurpose more viable, as i was saying).
The character in XMFC automatically had the advantage over the one in the Singer flicks because of that fact.

and as for that line to Wolverine in X3, a lot of fans hated that characterisation of Xavier, as if he had suddenly turned into a d*ck, it did seem very out of character from the person from X1 and 2.
and what he was saying was a lot of bs anyway, just because Logan has done crazy things in the past doesn't mean he should step back and let someone else do crazy things.

- I don't see how you couldn't be sympathetic to the character of Mystique in X-Men 1 when she hits out with that line about 'being scared of going to school because of people (like you).'
The fact is, her arc was established in those lines of the Singer flicks, those ideas where the foundation, FC filled in the blanks.
That's all i was saying, give credit where it is due, of course you can only allot a certain amount of screentime to characters in these ensemble movies, and we had to wait for a fourth to get more screentime for Mystique.
It was not really a fault of the Singer films, more a strength, that we could still get a sense of where she had been and what had happened to her from a mere couple of lines, which also gave us the arc in FC.

- and again, saying that a character *has* be flawed to be interesting is a bunch of baloney.
Jesus was pretty flawless right? and whether or not *you* find him interesting, folk are still talking about him 2000 years later.
haha, sorry, that was the first example I could think of, I haven't read enough Superman comics to comment really, but if you go over to any comic book discussion board you will inevitably see fans bemoaning anyone who claims Supes is boring cause he is so perfect.
Now, if you can't see how someone with the power of Superman or Jesus could end up in interesting dramatic situations as they agonise over what descisions to make, and how their descions have an impact on the wolrd, you are very short sighted in your thoughts on drama.
Same with Xavier, just because you preffered the dynamic figure of McAvoy doesn't mean that the character of Xavier was inherantly a boring character just because he did not have the couple of character flaws displayed in that movie, because , let's be honest here, they hardly played a major part in his drama, he was mostly banging on about the same things he was in the Sinegr films.

- and what are you talking about? As far as Xavier was concerned, Magneto *was* about to kill a bunch of innocent people at the end of FC, that was intended to be the start of their great war with each other, i am pretty mind boggled that you don't understand that. You are probably the only person to have seen the movie who thinks this way.
I'm just pointing out a few things, this is probably out of order whatever:
I never said Xavier was boring. I said Singer's Xavier was boring.

And I stand by my statement that characters have to be flawed to be interesting. That doesn't mean jerks are automatically cool at ALL. Characters who are flawed in every way are just as bad as characters who have no flaws. You need a good balance.

I actually find Superman and Captain America to be boring because they offer no flaws (and I may be the only person in the world who was bored by the Cap's recent movie). One of the only renditions of Superman I can stomach is Lois and Clark because they made SUPERMAN the fake persona, instead of Clark. Clark was insecure and had many very human moments of doubt when it came to his life, his alter-ego, his relationships. Superman, the all-good all-saving "Don't worry, citizens!" was fake. In all the other renditions I've seen (TV and movie, i can't be bothered with the comic), Superman is who he is and Clark is the bumbling idiot he pretends to be. His weaknesses are reduced to physical (kryptonite) rather than emotional. I couldn't connect with him at all in any other version than LCTAOS.

Similarly, Captain America. Will someone please please please tell me what his flaws are? I'm not trying to be argumentative about this guy, I'd actually genuinely like to know. The movie didn't answer that question for me, and when I asked friends they simply answered "he was small" as a flaw. Which if anything actually made the "over-heroification" of him more extreme in my book.

As for the Xavier-Magneto split, yes, Erik was ready to kill thousands of people. This wasn't the moment that made them complete enemies though. It was the moment that their paths sharply diverged. I'm not kidding myself and saying they're still good friends. Just that they are not going to be fighting each other directly in the sequel. There's no reason to.

That's why I like the divorce analogy. They're drawing lines in the sand (no pun intended), but they're not going straight to full on fighting each other. I think they're both a little too shattered at the moment to consider it.

Again Mystique doesn't have an arc. Arc means something changes. Mystique (ironically), never does in X1-2. She just does what she's told. Would have been cool to see her try to take control of a situation rather than just being a lackey.

Nerial, I actually HATE that line in X3 as well because it was so out of left field. But at that point I was pretty desperate to see anything other than sainthood from Charles, something rippling on his perpetually calm surface. That line did the trick alright but unfortunately it had the "ripple" effect of someone dropping a giant stone into a small pond.

So thanks for that delightful line, Kinberg! Can't wait for more out of character stuff in XMFC2!

But seriously, I'm hoping on some level FOX is aware what an effect Kinberg is having on sequel enthusiasts. I work in a video store and a customer was buying a Fassbender movie this aft. She brought up his work in XMFC and I told her about the sequel and she was really excited until I told her who was writing it. "Guess I'll be skipping that one" she said. A woman who loves XMFC and loves Michael Fassbender is already giving up on the sequel because X3 STILL has that effect on the franchise, 5 years and an excellent movie later. FOX wants a higher audience turnout? They need to ensure the important people (main cast and Vaughn, Singer, Goldman) are brought back for this project.

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Old 11-07-2011, 10:40 PM   #96
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Default Re: Simon Kinberg Penning First Class Sequel

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I will never forgive Penn and Kinberg for their fanboy trolling in 2006.
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^ This. They pretty much lied to fans continuously right up until last stand came out.

shameful.
But we're going to turn the page and not turn this into another X3 debate, since we have a separate forum to discuss that movie.


It's getting a little heated in here, everyone. Why don't we all take a breath and wait until we have some actual information about what's going to happen in the First Class sequel before we decide the movie is awful?

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Old 11-08-2011, 02:25 AM   #97
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IThey're not enemies, I cannot stress this enough. Their fistfight on the beach doesn't signify that. They're pissed off as hell at each other but don't want to hurt each other (Erik even says so during the fight). To put it simply, at the end of the movie these two men who love each other very deeply got "divorced". Getting divorced doesn't mean that the two parties involved are enemies, it just means that being together isn't working out for them and they need to go their own ways.
I think that their "divorce" though is of a kind where each party believes that the relationship has been broken forever and the other person is out of their life for good and there's no chance of catching up for coffee some time (so to speak). Not a nice amicable divorce.

I've had concerns about where exactly the whole Charles/Erik relationship can go after XMFC without aping what had already happened in other X-Men movies, but I think that can be avoided as long as the writers keep writing them as different people from what their older versions are. With the older Erik and Charles, their mix of enmity/friendship has a rather lived-in, almost comfortable feel to it, whereas I expect that the relationship between the younger characters would have been a lot more charged because they're younger and are therefore more volatile and emotional.

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Old 11-08-2011, 05:58 AM   #98
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I think that their "divorce" though is of a kind where each party believes that the relationship has been broken forever and the other person is out of their life for good and there's no chance of catching up for coffee some time (so to speak). Not a nice amicable divorce.

I've had concerns about where exactly the whole Charles/Erik relationship can go after XMFC without aping what had already happened in other X-Men movies, but I think that can be avoided as long as the writers keep writing them as different people from what their older versions are. With the older Erik and Charles, their mix of enmity/friendship has a rather lived-in, almost comfortable feel to it, whereas I expect that the relationship between the younger characters would have been a lot more charged because they're younger and are therefore more volatile and emotional.
EXACTLY! As McAvoy said in a recent interview, "we've got to be cleverer than that". Your comment about how they're younger and more volatile and emotional is spot on. It's why I'm looking forward to the angst in the sequel because I think it'll be heartwrenching. If they just skip over the part where Erik learns he paralysed Charles, I think that might be enough on its own to make me hate the movie forever. Seriously what they have to work with these two characters is golden.

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Old 11-08-2011, 06:11 AM   #99
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Default Re: Simon Kinberg Penning First Class Sequel

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when do you think Fox will confirm the director?
Hopefully we will hear something soon, I really hope Vaughn comes back as he brought a bit of freshness to the franchise that it badly needed. I wouldnt be too heartbroken if it was Singer who replaced him though.

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I will never forgive Penn and Kinberg for their fanboy trolling in 2006.
Agreed, that angered me so much, especially when a lot of promises they made turned out to be completely untrue.

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EXACTLY! As McAvoy said in a recent interview, "we've got to be cleverer than that". Your comment about how they're younger and more volatile and emotional is spot on. It's why I'm looking forward to the angst in the sequel because I think it'll be heartwrenching. If they just skip over the part where Erik learns he paralysed Charles, I think that might be enough on its own to make me hate the movie forever. Seriously what they have to work with these two characters is golden.

I think they definately have to show Erik's reaction to realising that he paralysed his friend, this will be essential in showing the evolution of the characters and could explain why Erik returns to the school to help build Cerebro and recruit a few young mutants.

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Old 11-08-2011, 06:27 AM   #100
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As for the Xavier-Magneto split, yes, Erik was ready to kill thousands of people. This wasn't the moment that made them complete enemies though. It was the moment that their paths sharply diverged. I'm not kidding myself and saying they're still good friends. Just that they are not going to be fighting each other directly in the sequel. There's no reason to.

That's why I like the divorce analogy. They're drawing lines in the sand (no pun intended), but they're not going straight to full on fighting each other. I think they're both a little too shattered at the moment to consider it.
I agree with this. Erik didn't even know Xavier was paralysed when they all teleported away. They have chosen different paths but they are not archenemies wanting to destroy each other.

Quote:
Nerial, I actually HATE that line in X3 as well because it was so out of left field. But at that point I was pretty desperate to see anything other than sainthood from Charles, something rippling on his perpetually calm surface. That line did the trick alright but unfortunately it had the "ripple" effect of someone dropping a giant stone into a small pond.

So thanks for that delightful line, Kinberg! Can't wait for more out of character stuff in XMFC2!
That line did seem a little odd, I agree.

Quote:
But seriously, I'm hoping on some level FOX is aware what an effect Kinberg is having on sequel enthusiasts. I work in a video store and a customer was buying a Fassbender movie this aft. She brought up his work in XMFC and I told her about the sequel and she was really excited until I told her who was writing it. "Guess I'll be skipping that one" she said. A woman who loves XMFC and loves Michael Fassbender is already giving up on the sequel because X3 STILL has that effect on the franchise, 5 years and an excellent movie later. FOX wants a higher audience turnout? They need to ensure the important people (main cast and Vaughn, Singer, Goldman) are brought back for this project.
Kinberg was a producer on First Class and also did a lot of on-set script work, so it's not some random choice like they are bringing back someone who hasn't been involved in the franchise for five years.

It's too early to freak out just yet. And a bit silly to be condemning the follow-up already.

If Kinberg was so heavily involved in First Class, then we should expect the sequel to flow on much more than in the case of The Last Stand.

It's all in the very early (and slow-moving) stages. They are just getting the ball rolling.

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