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Old 11-17-2011, 12:46 PM   #251
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Default Re: The Joker sized elephant in the room

Quote:
Originally Posted by lordofthenerds View Post
I don't think the Joker should be mentioned. No matter how you want to look at it, it will seem thrown in for Joker fans or casual audience members who want to hear the Joker's name mentioned. It would just be a wink to the fans. And the wink would be corny.
What basis have you got for that assumption when you have no idea what context he would be mentioned in. For example would it be corny to hear he was the one who broke Harvey Dent when Batman is explaining to someone like say Selina Kyle why he took the blame for murders he didn't do? Or if Bane learns the truth behind the whole Batman being a murderer fiasco from someone (which he seemingly does if those set pics of him ripping up Dent's photo in public are anything to go by)?

No of course not.

Quote:
Why would the wink never work? Because people would suspect that the filmmakers were forced into mentioning him rather than actually bringing him back.
So mentioning Harvey Dent several times is ok, but mentioning the Joker would feel forced?

Makes perfect sense.

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Simply mentioning a character like the Joker in a Batman film is weak. Especially under these circumstances.
You still haven't offered a valid reason why you think this.

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If you can't accept the fact that Joker's gone in the Nolan series you should just get over it.
It's got nothing to do with accepting Joker is gone. Harvey Dent is gone, too, but he is blatantly getting several mentions. There's no reason why Joker can't and shouldn't either without it feeling forced or corny as you're trying to claim.

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Old 11-17-2011, 12:56 PM   #252
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Default Re: The Joker sized elephant in the room

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Originally Posted by Laderlappen View Post
Maybe Joker will kill Bane off-screen? In the end of the movie its mentioned Joker killed Bane?
That would be terrible, lazy writing.

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Old 11-17-2011, 12:58 PM   #253
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Default Re: The Joker sized elephant in the room

I don't get why it HAS to be so corny or forced.

Scarecrow SHOULD have been locked up in Arkham after TDK. If he is in TDKR (as reported) then either they just decided to put him in Blackgate (which could be explained, who knows) or he got out of Arkham. At that point, I (and I think all of Gotham after the events in TDK) would want to know what happened to the Joker.

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Old 11-17-2011, 02:42 PM   #254
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Default Re: The Joker sized elephant in the room

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Originally Posted by The Joker View Post
What basis have you got for that assumption when you have no idea what context he would be mentioned in. For example would it be corny to hear he was the one who broke Harvey Dent when Batman is explaining to someone like say Selina Kyle why he took the blame for murders he didn't do? Or if Bane learns the truth behind the whole Batman being a murderer fiasco from someone (which he seemingly does if those set pics of him ripping up Dent's photo in public are anything to go by)?

No of course not.



So mentioning Harvey Dent several times is ok, but mentioning the Joker would feel forced?

Makes perfect sense.



You still haven't offered a valid reason why you think this.



It's got nothing to do with accepting Joker is gone. Harvey Dent is gone, too, but he is blatantly getting several mentions. There's no reason why Joker can't and shouldn't either without it feeling forced or corny as you're trying to claim.
I guess you're right. I went over the top by saying that it would have to sound/corny forced. There's always the possibility that it wouldn't. Part of the reason why I went that far was to try to make my argument stronger... but in truth all it did was make it not valid as you pointed out.

I still think that it's more likely to sound corny/forced than not though. And yes I know Christopher Nolan's directing. The filmmakers are good, but not good enough for me to put full trust in here.

Mentioning Harvey Dent is different. He died in the last movie but we still expected some return on his behalf didn't we? That return is in the form of being mentioned. The Joker didn't die in the last movie. Like Harvey Dent, we would expect him to return too , this time in the obvious way by actually returning. Two completely different situations.

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Last edited by lordofthenerds; 11-17-2011 at 02:50 PM.
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Old 11-17-2011, 02:56 PM   #255
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Default Re: The Joker sized elephant in the room

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Originally Posted by RKO View Post
That would be terrible, lazy writing.
Is it that different from Bane killing the Joker off screen?

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Old 11-17-2011, 03:05 PM   #256
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Default Re: The Joker sized elephant in the room

I think Joker should be mentioned in-directly. if they mentioned Joker too much too blanantly, the itll be distracting.

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Old 11-17-2011, 03:13 PM   #257
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Default Re: The Joker sized elephant in the room

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Originally Posted by Octoberist View Post
I think Joker should be mentioned in-directly. if they mentioned Joker too much too blanantly, the itll be distracting.
No offense but that's kinda vague, man. What do you mean by indirectly?

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Old 11-17-2011, 03:40 PM   #258
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Default Re: The Joker sized elephant in the room

Why would the Joker even try to escape?

"Until their spirit breaks completely. Until they get a good look at the real Harvey Dent and all the heroic things he's done."

Once Bane reveals Dent's downfall, the Joker's won.

No one's going to let him out. He'd be a threat to Bane..not an ally..Bane has politics; Joker has no politics.

He'd just watch the carnage from his cell window, probably laughing, as his prophecy at the end of The Dark Knight comes true. Those ferries..the hostages..every single one of Batman's tiny victories doesn't matter in the face of the destruction of Gotham's soul.

If Gordon and his cops expressed that through some clever dialogue in the middle of Bane's revolution?

That would be great.

Still, even if no one mentions him, the entire film represents the thematic victory of the Joker's plan. He's there in spirit.

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Last edited by Secret_Riddle; 11-17-2011 at 03:47 PM.
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Old 11-17-2011, 04:04 PM   #259
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Default Re: The Joker sized elephant in the room

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Originally Posted by Secret_Riddle View Post
Why would the Joker even try to escape?

"Until their spirit breaks completely. Until they get a good look at the real Harvey Dent and all the heroic things he's done."

Once Bane reveals Dent's downfall, the Joker's won.
Good point.

Quote:
No one's going to let him out. He'd be a threat to Bane..not an ally..Bane has politics; Joker has no politics.
He'd still find a way to escape.

Quote:
He'd just watch the carnage from his cell window, probably laughing, as his prophecy at the end of The Dark Knight comes true. Those ferries..the hostages..every single one of Batman's tiny victories doesn't matter in the face of the destruction of Gotham's soul.
He'd still prefer to be out among the chaos than sitting in a cell watching it.

Quote:
If Gordon and his cops expressed that through some clever dialogue in the middle of Bane's revolution?

That would be great.
The Joker isn't a character in this movie. If he's mentioned only once in the entire script... it would be incredibly easy to make that writing seem forced. Could it work? Maybe barely.

Quote:
Still, even if no one mentions him, the entire film represents the thematic victory of the Joker's plan. He's there in spirit.
That's one way of looking at it.

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Old 11-17-2011, 04:35 PM   #260
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Default Re: The Joker sized elephant in the room

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Originally Posted by lordofthenerds View Post
I don't think the Joker should be mentioned. No matter how you want to look at it, it will seem thrown in for Joker fans or casual audience members who want to hear the Joker's name mentioned. It would just be a wink to the fans. And the wink would be corny.

Why would the wink never work? Because people would suspect that the filmmakers were forced into mentioning him rather than actually bringing him back.

Simply mentioning a character like the Joker in a Batman film is weak. Especially under these circumstances. If you can't accept the fact that Joker's gone in the Nolan series you should just get over it.
Mentioning the Joker isn't a necessity, and I can't see it helping to move the story along. It's simply, "for the sake of it".

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Old 11-17-2011, 04:39 PM   #261
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Default Re: The Joker sized elephant in the room

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Originally Posted by floreairfoot View Post
Mentioning the Joker isn't a necessity, and I can't see it helping to move the story along. It's simply, "for the sake of it".
Then it makes no sense to even try it because of the difficulty to make it not sound corny.

That would just be risky, illogical screenwriting.

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Old 11-17-2011, 08:13 PM   #262
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Default Re: The Joker sized elephant in the room

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Originally Posted by lordofthenerds View Post
I guess you're right. I went over the top by saying that it would have to sound/corny forced. There's always the possibility that it wouldn't. Part of the reason why I went that far was to try to make my argument stronger... but in truth all it did was make it not valid as you pointed out.
It's ok. We're used to over the top around here

Quote:
I still think that it's more likely to sound corny/forced than not though. And yes I know Christopher Nolan's directing. The filmmakers are good, but not good enough for me to put full trust in here.
It's just mentioning the Joker in some relevant dialogue. He's not trying to make Killer Moth the leading villain of the movie or something.

You make it sound like a massive obstacle that has slim chances of not being corny. It's a verbal reference to a prominent villain in the previous movie. Why are there mountains being made out of mole hills here lol?

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Mentioning Harvey Dent is different. He died in the last movie but we still expected some return on his behalf didn't we? That return is in the form of being mentioned.
So a character who is dead and gone you expect a mention. But one who's still among the living is not to be mentioned?

This logic baffles me.

Quote:
The Joker didn't die in the last movie. Like Harvey Dent, we would expect him to return too , this time in the obvious way by actually returning. Two completely different situations.
What two different situations? Dent is dead. Heath is dead, and therefore Joker has as much chance of coming back as Two Face. So both characters are in the same situation.

Verbal or visual references are the way to go. We know Dent is getting both. There's not a reason in the world for Joker not to get a mention. He is the instrumental reason why Batman is a wanted murderer now. Batman only took the blame so Joker wouldn't win.

You really cannot see that possibly being mentioned in context when Batman is suffering the heat of being hunted in TDKR? I mean honestly we've got dedication plaques and photos of Dent in TDKR, but a verbal mention of the Joker is too corny and unthinkable!

Most flawed argument I've seen in a long time.

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Old 11-17-2011, 08:24 PM   #263
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Default Re: The Joker sized elephant in the room

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I really don't give a **** about the Joker. Bane is gonna kick ass!
That pretty much sums it up.

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Old 11-17-2011, 10:01 PM   #264
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Default Re: The Joker sized elephant in the room

Another poster (I forget who) had a clever idea of how to breifly mention The Joker in the movie. Gordon and Batman meet and begin chatting about the mob or something. Batman says at one point: "How's the clown?" "He's secure." That seems like a logical way to mention The Joker's presence.

After everything The Joker did in TDK, I would imagine Bats would be a little paranoid about The Joker getting out, so he'd probably want to check in with Gordon from time-to-time about The Joker's status. Just a quick mention, to make sure Joker's secure, and then begin talking about whatever new threat is in Gotham.

Joker doesn't seem important to the premise of TDKR, but he shouldn't be forgotten. If Gotham was a real city, and Joker was a real person, then people would be talking about him long after his incarceration, given all the mayhem he had caused.

News channels would talk about all the time, just like how CNN wouldn't shut up about Casey Anthony or Dr. Conrad Murray. And then there's the mentally unhinged people who probably thought the Joker's anarchic view on the world was a great philosophy to have and may want to carry on in his footsteps. And comedians would parody The Joker just like SNL or a stand-up comedian would parody Osama Bin Laden. (I think it would be corny and stupid to show a stand-up comedian telling jokes about The Joker, but you get my point. Such a thing would happen if The Joker existed in real-life.)

And then there is the fact that he is responsible for Dent's downfall, and if the set pics are any indication, that is going to be a plot point in the film.

What I'm saying is, The Joker doesn't need to be in this movie, there's no need for a re-cast or even a cameo, but he should not be forgotten about either. There should be mentions of him, given all that he's done.

I'm not asking for constant mentions or references to The Joker, just one or two. I would be pretty annoyed if the movie tries to pretend that The Joker never existed.

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Old 11-17-2011, 10:57 PM   #265
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Default Re: The Joker sized elephant in the room

^^^ Great post

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Old 11-17-2011, 11:01 PM   #266
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Default Re: The Joker sized elephant in the room

Seems like there's some sort of Joker insecurity going on. You don't need to reference the character at all, his job is done.

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Old 11-17-2011, 11:01 PM   #267
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Default Re: The Joker sized elephant in the room

Its time a WB Ninja drop some science on this thread....

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Old 11-17-2011, 11:07 PM   #268
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Default Re: The Joker sized elephant in the room

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Seems like there's some sort of Joker insecurity going on. You don't need to reference the character at all, his job is done.
He said his job with Batman was supposed to last forever. Plus, he didn't get to prove Gotham what he could do with his white knight since Batman blamed himself for Dent's actions.

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Old 11-17-2011, 11:27 PM   #269
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Default Re: The Joker sized elephant in the room

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He said his job with Batman was supposed to last forever. Plus, he didn't get to prove Gotham what he could do with his white knight since Batman blamed himself for Dent's actions.
It's comments like these which makes me wonder by I bother posting in here sometimes.

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Old 11-18-2011, 12:41 AM   #270
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Default Re: The Joker sized elephant in the room

Bane

Really guys, Bane

No Joker anymore

Bane

Or Ben, if it's easier to remember

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Old 11-18-2011, 08:44 AM   #271
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Default Re: The Joker sized elephant in the room

I kind of liked what the one guy said where you could basically just have the camera zoom into a padded cell or be outside the door or window to a cell and maybe a television is on, 'Gotham has been taken under siege. It's chaotic. People are turning on each other. Commissioner Gordon and the Gotham City Police Department are doing all they can to repel this new menace named Bane and his mercenaries, but one thing is for certain... we could use Batman. Why did you abandoned us, Batman?" or something like that and all we hear is a replay of Joker's laugh, as if to say, 'I told you so.'

I think that'd be great because we don't need a name drop, reference, or anything just something simple to remind us that indeed Joker was ahead of the curve, he saw the storm clouds moving in, he knew what impending doom and danger was going to take place, and once Bane takes over the city and Gothamites are turning on one another all the heroics and great work Batman did will be forgotten and proven pointless because they did as he said, they turned on him, hunted him down, and now they've completely forgotten him and the city has been pushed into the edge of darkness. In other words, Joker wins.

However, if Nolan wanted to tie everything up even further, he could maybe have it where yes Joker escapes, but he could shoot the whole thing from the waist down. Just reuse Heath's laugh, have him get ahold of a scissors or knife or something, and take a guard or a certain female psychiatrist hostage, and that'd fit in with his line 'we'll be doing this forever.' Meaning that what Joker saw or heard about Bane's takeover of Gotham only made Joker stronger, enraged him, because only the Joker can rule Gotham.

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Old 11-18-2011, 11:04 AM   #272
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Default Re: The Joker sized elephant in the room

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Originally Posted by cjmcray View Post
Another poster (I forget who) had a clever idea of how to breifly mention The Joker in the movie. Gordon and Batman meet and begin chatting about the mob or something. Batman says at one point: "How's the clown?" "He's secure." That seems like a logical way to mention The Joker's presence.
Pointless scene. We already know the Joker is behind bars.

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Old 11-18-2011, 05:37 PM   #273
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Default Re: The Joker sized elephant in the room

That wouldn't be the entirety of the scene. I think it would be pretty stupid for Batman to just pop up and say.

Batman: Joker still away?

Gordon: Mmm-hmm.

Batman: Okay bye.

Bats and Gordon usually chat about crime in Gotham, so I thought just a quick mention during their conversation, then shift the subject to matters like the mob, Bane or Catwoman.

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^^^ Great post
Thank you.

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Last edited by CJ; 11-18-2011 at 05:42 PM.
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Old 11-18-2011, 05:58 PM   #274
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Default Re: The Joker sized elephant in the room

Joker doesn't need to get mentioned. One can easily assume he was taken to a high security federal prison after the little stunt/s he pulled in TDK.

Issue solved. Not that I'm against having the Joker mentioned but it's simply not necessary.

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Old 11-18-2011, 09:24 PM   #275
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Default Re: The Joker sized elephant in the room

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Originally Posted by cjmcray View Post
That wouldn't be the entirety of the scene. I think it would be pretty stupid for Batman to just pop up and say.

Batman: Joker still away?

Gordon: Mmm-hmm.

Batman: Okay bye.

Bats and Gordon usually chat about crime in Gotham, so I thought just a quick mention during their conversation, then shift the subject to matters like the mob, Bane or Catwoman.
Exactly.

Nobody is asking for a scene like that.

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