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Old 11-26-2011, 05:08 AM   #326
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Default Re: The Joker sized elephant in the room

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Originally Posted by Fudgie View Post
You don't speak for anyone except yourself. I want Joker mentioned.
Why? Otherwise you wont understand the movie? Otherwise you wont enjoy the movie? You get a high of hearing the word Joker? Explain what you as an audience member would gain of it.

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Old 11-26-2011, 05:57 AM   #327
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Default Re: The Joker sized elephant in the room

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Come on people! I mean Really? There are actually some of you who think The Joker shouldn't be mentioned in this film? That's the most ridiculous thing i've ever heard. The Joker was the WHOLE reason The Dark Knight did the kind of business it did.
Wrong! It was part of the reason why TDK did that kind of business, other factors included Batman begins, the buzz from heaths death, the great marketing and trailers, the fantastic reviews, repeat viewings because it was a great film. To say the the whole movie hinged on Joker and no one else is not only disrespectful to the fantastic jobs the rest of the cast and crew did, but to the entire point of the film. It's also incorrect.

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If it was not for him, the movie would have done well, but wouldn't have went on to break records like it did. Thus, the whole reason many people will be seeing TDKR is because of guess who? The Joker!
Wrong yet again. I'm pretty sure the majority of people know that TDKR will not feature the joker, either because they are smart enough to know that there is no point in continuing joker's story or that they realise recasting Joker would be too much considering heath ledgers untimely death. I don't doubt there will be a severe minority that will actually pass on this film in the cinemas because of the lack of joker, but if you are honestly thinking "most people" will expect to see the joker in this film, you are kidding yourself.

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It would be a massive mistake by the film makers to completely ignore Joker like he never happened. You can get away with doing that to someone like Ras Al Ghul, but not someone like Mister J who changed things in Gotham as we know them.
No one says that they will ignore joker like he never happened, im sure the repercussions of his actions will have affected gotham in ways that you'll see on screen, but there is nothing to gain by centering anything on a character that won't even show up on screen. He hasn't got anything to do with this story and rightfully so, Nolan stated that he wants each film in his bat-trilogy to stand on their own.

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Joker will get his mention, and it probably won't be nearly as subtle as some of you are thinking. Nolan's smart enough to know who made him his money in TDK. If you think he's going to ignore him in this movie, you're sadly mistaken.
Do you not realise that adding joker physically in any way cheapens his role in TDK, he had an almost mythical omnipresence in that movie, his performance is probably the most memorable part of that film (even tho it's not the only good thing in that film like some will try and tell you), he's featured heavily in the promos. It makes TDK special and individual for it's own reasons why mess with that, by making TDKR look like a tacked on sequel for more money.

Look i get it, you are probably a Joker fanboy, and that's great, he's a wonderful character, but there are other equally fascinating members of the rogues gallery. It's just logic to focus on them instead of constantly focusing on one. Maybe you should check your fanboyism at the door, before making an argument because it certainly doesn't help.

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Old 11-26-2011, 06:58 AM   #328
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Default Re: The Joker sized elephant in the room

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Originally Posted by TinkerTailor View Post
Look what The Joker did to Bruce/Batman the first time round when they met. He killed the Police Commissioner, a high profile judge, several police officers as well as killing Rachel and corrupting the DA, not any DA, but Gotham's White Knight. His effect was such that the National Guard had to be called in.

I think it would be pretty shoddy if it was suggested that The Joker had escaped and been recaptured and escaped and been recaptured again in the 8 years prior to TDKR's narrative. It doesn't increase the character's standing but diminishes it if these subsequent jail breaks were lesser attempts that didn't result in any allies being harmed, or any changes to Bruce's thinking on the nature of his mission.

What happened in TDK between Batman and The Joker was perfect. Why mess with it?
Unfortunately I can't remain content knowing that the Joker's only encounters with Batman were seen and done with in TDK. The film ended with the suggestion that not only the Joker, who is Batman's greatest foe, but many other freaks like him will come out of the woodwork and plague the city simply because Batman is a sort of challenge to them. The Joker's line of them doing it forever is a testament to their history, and I hope that in the 8 intervening years some of that history had panned out. The impact he had in TDK will not be diminished because, let's face it, this was his "rise", it was the Joker's "first time out", obviously it would have an unparalleled impact in the Batman's legacy in Gotham City. Even those few who hold him to be a hero would know that it was the Joker's actions that drove Batman to his edge and made him a killer. That's something you can't escape, and it's something that brings Batman and the Joker on the same level to the masses - the same two freaks (a theme that Batman '89 is inherently based on!) So yeah, knowing that the two clashed wouldn't diminish theevents of The Dark Knight.

Just think what it means for Bane though - he's somewhat of an evolution on the freaks anyway since he's the one who manipulated them in Knightfall. I think we'll see that evolution with Bane, that shift in the way things are with the Dark Knight around, come TDKR.

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Old 11-26-2011, 07:02 AM   #329
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Default Re: The Joker sized elephant in the room

I'll be content if they don't mention him, since there'll obviously be a lot going on in it. But I really WANT them to mention the Joker at least once, at least with Alfred or Selina and Bruce, or even Jim. And not the kind of Ra's Al Ghul nod that was given in TDK when Bruce said "criminals aren't complicated Alfred" (which is another reason why I think Ra's notion of justice really is outdated by the time Batman emerges). The Joker typifies the world of Batman, and so The Dark Knight is the perfect template for a Christopher Nolan history of Batman -- the rest we can imagine for ourselves -- The Dark Knight Rises, set 8 years later, would scream something else entirely.

And no... the Joker needs to stay alive. He must... he must!

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Old 11-26-2011, 12:51 PM   #330
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Default Re: The Joker sized elephant in the room

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Originally Posted by Sharkboy View Post
Wrong! It was part of the reason why TDK did that kind of business, other factors included Batman begins, the buzz from heaths death, the great marketing and trailers, the fantastic reviews, repeat viewings because it was a great film. To say the the whole movie hinged on Joker and no one else is not only disrespectful to the fantastic jobs the rest of the cast and crew did, but to the entire point of the film. It's also incorrect.



Wrong yet again. I'm pretty sure the majority of people know that TDKR will not feature the joker, either because they are smart enough to know that there is no point in continuing joker's story or that they realise recasting Joker would be too much considering heath ledgers untimely death. I don't doubt there will be a severe minority that will actually pass on this film in the cinemas because of the lack of joker, but if you are honestly thinking "most people" will expect to see the joker in this film, you are kidding yourself.



No one says that they will ignore joker like he never happened, im sure the repercussions of his actions will have affected gotham in ways that you'll see on screen, but there is nothing to gain by centering anything on a character that won't even show up on screen. He hasn't got anything to do with this story and rightfully so, Nolan stated that he wants each film in his bat-trilogy to stand on their own.



Do you not realise that adding joker physically in any way cheapens his role in TDK, he had an almost mythical omnipresence in that movie, his performance is probably the most memorable part of that film (even tho it's not the only good thing in that film like some will try and tell you), he's featured heavily in the promos. It makes TDK special and individual for it's own reasons why mess with that, by making TDKR look like a tacked on sequel for more money.

Look i get it, you are probably a Joker fanboy, and that's great, he's a wonderful character, but there are other equally fascinating members of the rogues gallery. It's just logic to focus on them instead of constantly focusing on one. Maybe you should check your fanboyism at the door, before making an argument because it certainly doesn't help.

Whether I am a Joker fanboy or not is not relevant to this discussion. What is relevant is the fact that this is the SEQUEL to TDK. I think most people are smart enough to realize after Heath's death that we won't be seeing Joker again in this movie. But to go with no mention whatsoever of The Joker like he never happened would not only be stupid, but it would cheapen the impact that The Joker had on not only the ficitional Gotham, but also the millions of people who were sucked into the story of The Dark Knight. My point is we can't just pretend The Joker didn't happen. I don't care if this movie does take place 8 years after TDK. After what he did, it's something you would expect people to talk about for the rest of their lives. People are always going on about how "realistic" Nolan's Batman films are, and forgetting about The Joker like he was a bad fart is not realistic, and personally, if they do try to sweep him under the rug, i'm going to be very disappointed. I think just out of respect for Heath, he'll get his mention in this movie...once again, The Joker made Nolan alot of money...sure he wasn't the only reason the movie was great, but I guarantee if you take a poll of the average guy on the street and ask why he went to see The Dark Knight, he'll tell you because of The Joker. Oh and don't be so quick to write me off as a "fanboy" technically everyone on here is a fanboy. Including you.

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Old 11-26-2011, 01:10 PM   #331
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Default Re: The Joker sized elephant in the room

This thread should have a poll about what people want to see or think they will see about Joker in TDKR.

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Old 11-26-2011, 01:24 PM   #332
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Default Re: The Joker sized elephant in the room

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Originally Posted by ScarecrowMan666 View Post
Whether I am a Joker fanboy or not is not relevant to this discussion. What is relevant is the fact that this is the SEQUEL to TDK. I think most people are smart enough to realize after Heath's death that we won't be seeing Joker again in this movie. But to go with no mention whatsoever of The Joker like he never happened would not only be stupid, but it would cheapen the impact that The Joker had on not only the ficitional Gotham, but also the millions of people who were sucked into the story of The Dark Knight. My point is we can't just pretend The Joker didn't happen. I don't care if this movie does take place 8 years after TDK. After what he did, it's something you would expect people to talk about for the rest of their lives. People are always going on about how "realistic" Nolan's Batman films are, and forgetting about The Joker like he was a bad fart is not realistic, and personally, if they do try to sweep him under the rug, i'm going to be very disappointed. I think just out of respect for Heath, he'll get his mention in this movie...once again, The Joker made Nolan alot of money...sure he wasn't the only reason the movie was great, but I guarantee if you take a poll of the average guy on the street and ask why he went to see The Dark Knight, he'll tell you because of The Joker. Oh and don't be so quick to write me off as a "fanboy" technically everyone on here is a fanboy. Including you.
Look, No one says that he shouldn't be mentioned, but correct me if i am wrong, the vibe i get from you is that, if he doesn't mention joker at all, this movie would lose money? or would be a lesser film? because of what? a joker mention. The cold hard fact is this; this film is already going to make bucketloads of cash, it's already one of if not THE most anticipated film of the year. A joker mention would accomplish a few things, all of them extremely minor; it would be on of many establishing lines between the 2nd film and the 3rd film, and it would be a nice little callback for the people in the audience. Would it make much difference, not at all. This film could have absolutely no mention of the joker and this film would still make insane amounts of money and get tons of critical acclaim.

So yeah, i fully understand you wanted some acknowledgement for the joker, and i apologize for the fanboy comment. I just get REALLY annoyed when people assume that due to the popularity of heaths joker, clearly he's the reason for TDK and Nolan's success, not the fabulous writing, marketing acting, critical acclaim etc. (inception proved that theory wrong anyway)

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Old 11-26-2011, 01:29 PM   #333
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Default Re: The Joker sized elephant in the room

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Originally Posted by Laderlappen View Post
Why? Otherwise you wont understand the movie? Otherwise you wont enjoy the movie? You get a high of hearing the word Joker? Explain what you as an audience member would gain of it.
This is what I'd like to know as well. Is there something exciting about the Joker being mentioned that I'm not aware of?

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Old 11-26-2011, 02:11 PM   #334
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Default Re: The Joker sized elephant in the room

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Originally Posted by RED_Rider View Post
This thread should have a poll about what people want to see or think they will see about Joker in TDKR.
I think those opinions should be better left open-ended, rather than be limited by options.

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Old 11-26-2011, 02:18 PM   #335
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I think those opinions should be better left open-ended, rather than be limited by options.
I guess. I was just curious after seeing some fans who prefer not to have any reference to Joker in TDRK at all. It could be a simple poll where people answer whether they think Nolan should talk about Joker in TDKR or not (Simple yes or no).

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Old 11-26-2011, 02:21 PM   #336
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Default Re: The Joker sized elephant in the room

^ Oh yeah, in that case it could work. I thought you were implying a more explored answer to it.

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Old 11-26-2011, 02:40 PM   #337
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Default Re: The Joker sized elephant in the room

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This is what I'd like to know as well. Is there something exciting about the Joker being mentioned that I'm not aware of?
Yes, it's nice to acknowledge him and his contribution to the story within the movie universe. Apart from him being a very popular villain (the most popular thus far in these movies) he has been a catalyst for a lot of misery in Batman's life.

Him being mention in some proper context is a cool nod to that. Harvey Dent is obviously getting a few big mentions as part of the movie plot, so the Joker can, too, since it was his antics that caused Batman to choose to be a fugitive for Dent's crimes. Why the likes of you and Laderlappen are so vehemently opposed to it like it will destroy the movie's credibility or something is beyond me.

It's a verbal reference to a villain who caused a lot of crap in Batman's life. More than any villain has thus far.

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Old 11-26-2011, 02:48 PM   #338
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Default Re: The Joker sized elephant in the room

Hell the damn TRAILER alluded to Ra's Al Ghul! What's so wrong with the Joker!? I think most are against the idea of him making an appearance -- and that spite towards the notion of Joker in TDKR came through to the scenario of him being mentioned. Really, nothing wrong there at all.

I'd actually want Nolan to make it a more grand finale and make links to the previous films in ways we haven't imagined yet. It'd make it all the more meaningful.

But i also want TDKR to stand out on its own. I think that the idea that its 8 years later from so early into Batman's career cements that status as being a film that stands on its own.

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(pt 1; pt 2; pt 3; pt 4; pt 5; pt 6; pt 7)


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Old 11-26-2011, 02:56 PM   #339
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Default Re: The Joker sized elephant in the room

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His arc was brought full circle in Knight.
Was it? "I think you and I are destined to do this forever".

I also think this:




is what Joker would be doing if he was in it. After all the only reason Batman took the fall for Dent's crimes was because "The Joker cannot win". So do you really see Joker sitting back and letting Batman sit on the truth like that and stop him from "Winning the battle for Gotham's soul" by telling a big fat lie to the public?

Heath's death put the kibosh on that. Aaron Eckhart also mentioned Heath was supposed to do another:

Quote:
As Eckhart explained this summer, Nolan's original plan was to bring back Heath Ledger's Joker for the new film. But Ledger's death in 2008 of course changed that plan. Nolan will be starting over, with a new villain or possibly more than one. And that's fine with Eckhart.

"Honestly, it was Heath's movie to go on," he told us Thursday. "We had a great movie. I'm so honored to be a part of that movie. I know Chris has got something in store that is going to blow everybody away."
http://www.mtv.com/news/articles/165...ht-rises.jhtml

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Old 11-26-2011, 03:02 PM   #340
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Default Re: The Joker sized elephant in the room

The Joker, I agree. In fact, I could see Joker making the news of Dent's villany public knowledge in the interest of protecting Batman from the GPD. The Bat should be his plaything.

Given his background with the mob/abusive father that he alluded to--and may have been lying about, or partially truthful about in TDK--I could see him in the assumed Scarecrow cameo with more hints about his past being brought up.


That way he would work in a film with Bane, without the need for a team-up or for one to overshadow the other.

But why would the GPD have any reason to give Joker's confession much thought? He's insane and could be making it up, for all that they know.

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Old 11-26-2011, 03:04 PM   #341
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Default Re: The Joker sized elephant in the room

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Yes, it's nice to acknowledge him and his contribution to the story within the movie universe. Apart from him being a very popular villain (the most popular thus far in these movies) he has been a catalyst for a lot of misery in Batman's life.

Him being mention in some proper context is a cool nod to that. Harvey Dent is obviously getting a few big mentions as part of the movie plot, so the Joker can, too, since it was his antics that caused Batman to choose to be a fugitive for Dent's crimes. Why the likes of you and Laderlappen are so vehemently opposed to it like it will destroy the movie's credibility or something is beyond me.

It's a verbal reference to a villain who caused a lot of crap in Batman's life. More than any villain has thus far.


Chill. I'm not "vehemently opposed" to a mention. What I am opposed to is

1) The idea that a mention is necessary because Jokers absence will be some big plot hole (it isn't).

2) A mention just for the heck of it. If there is going to be a mention, it should have a real purpose. Dent's picture in Bane's hand obviously has a purpose.

3) A mention at the close of the movie. Heck no.

I've argued against all of those things in this thread.

I also don't get why so many people are demanding that a reference happen. If it happens for a good reason, I'm cool with it. But why does it HAVE to happen?

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Old 11-26-2011, 03:05 PM   #342
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Default Re: The Joker sized elephant in the room

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Yes, it's nice to acknowledge him and his contribution to the story within the movie universe. Apart from him being a very popular villain (the most popular thus far in these movies) he has been a catalyst for a lot of misery in Batman's life.

Him being mention in some proper context is a cool nod to that. Harvey Dent is obviously getting a few big mentions as part of the movie plot, so the Joker can, too, since it was his antics that caused Batman to choose to be a fugitive for Dent's crimes. Why the likes of you and Laderlappen are so vehemently opposed to it like it will destroy the movie's credibility or something is beyond me.

It's a verbal reference to a villain who caused a lot of crap in Batman's life. More than any villain has thus far.
Well said. People keep asking what you get from having him mentioned, but easily you can ask what do we get for not having him mentioned?

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Old 11-26-2011, 03:16 PM   #343
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Default Re: The Joker sized elephant in the room

It's not about fanboy boners though... the character made an impact on Batman and Gotham City, and I think it's a BETTER idea altogether to have him at least alluded to. It's okay if you dont, you can always tell a complete story that way, but why not close the trilogy with a sense of continuity? The Joker is the Batman's dark reflection, the antithesis of Batman, what he learned during his encounter with him is major character-development. Especially when you're making trilogies. Mentioning him makes that growth all the more visible.

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THE JUSTICE BULLETIN published some of my thematic analysis on the symbolism in Nolan's superhero saga.
I call it Heroic Archetypes. You can read the parts on Batman Begins in the following links:
(pt 1; pt 2; pt 3; pt 4; pt 5; pt 6; pt 7)


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Old 11-26-2011, 03:17 PM   #344
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It's not about fanboy boners though... the character made an impact on Batman and Gotham City, and I think it's a BETTER idea altogether to have him at least alluded to. It's okay if you dont, you can always tell a complete story that way, but why not close the trilogy with a sense of continuity? The Joker is the Batman's dark reflection, the antithesis of Batman, what he learned during his encounter with him is major character-development. Especially when you're making trilogies. Mentioning him makes that growth all the more visible.

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Old 11-26-2011, 03:58 PM   #345
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Well said. People keep asking what you get from having him mentioned, but easily you can ask what do we get for not having him mentioned?
Yes, you can easily ask that question and you'd just as easily look foolish for it. The answer is quite obvious: nothing. But then again, the opposition isn't asking for it, so there is no point being proven.

If the Joker is mentioned then so be it. I'd prefer it to have some purpose otherwise it comes off like shameless fan service. But pretending like focusing solely on a story that doesn't involve him, somehow eradicates his presence and impact from TDK, is mind-numbingly stupid. It's understood that it is a continuation and that it is all part of the same universe and timeline. Why you need to be needlessly reminded of established histories and individuals, I've no clue. Perhaps one should seek a doctor about that.

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Old 11-26-2011, 05:01 PM   #346
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Default Re: The Joker sized elephant in the room

so pretty much half the people are saying why have him mentioned, what purpose would it serve? while the other half are saying what damage could it do if he was mentioned?

Aie im going to take the middle road and just say if he was mentioned in a passing fleeting way, or alluded to I doubt anyone would take issue with it. I think what most people fear is a plot point being devoted to the joker because of his popularity with the audience, or more likely a fanservice moment, with some sort of voice cameo or a much more concrete allusion to Joker in order to accomplish one thing, make all the TDK fans crap their pants.

That's pretty much my one fear when it comes the the joker in TDKR, fanservice, it cheapens the film, and it doesnt add to the film one bit except for a cheap bit of praise. I don't expect that from a Nolan film, i mean come on it's not a Marvel film.

But if it manages to avoid that they can reference the joker and his actions however he wants.

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Old 11-26-2011, 06:46 PM   #347
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Default Re: The Joker sized elephant in the room

Seriously, the issue of the Joker in Rises is being blown entirely out of proportion. I'm hearing nonsense like it cheapens the impact he had or you can't not mention him due to the events of Rises. Bollocks. The Joker's part in this series is over, people want the Joker mentioned not because he needs to be but because they want him to be, purely selfish reasons. For crying out loud we were given the best representation of that character on film ever and you're still not satisfied? It's like there's insecurity that if Joker isn't mentioned that somehow means Rises doesn't connect with TDK or something. If he's mentioned then he's mentioned, but I feel sorry for anyone who walks out of the theatre pissed off if he isn't mentioned, seriously if that ruins the movie for you then you need to have a long hard look at yourself in the mirror.

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Old 11-26-2011, 06:54 PM   #348
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Default Re: The Joker sized elephant in the room

Harvey Dent is connection enough to TDK. A more poignant connection if Bane is trying to brain wash Gothamites to turn on their own city.

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Old 11-26-2011, 07:04 PM   #349
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Default Re: The Joker sized elephant in the room

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nave 'Torment' View Post
Unfortunately I can't remain content knowing that the Joker's only encounters with Batman were seen and done with in TDK. The film ended with the suggestion that not only the Joker, who is Batman's greatest foe, but many other freaks like him will come out of the woodwork and plague the city simply because Batman is a sort of challenge to them. The Joker's line of them doing it forever is a testament to their history, and I hope that in the 8 intervening years some of that history had panned out. The impact he had in TDK will not be diminished because, let's face it, this was his "rise", it was the Joker's "first time out", obviously it would have an unparalleled impact in the Batman's legacy in Gotham City. Even those few who hold him to be a hero would know that it was the Joker's actions that drove Batman to his edge and made him a killer. That's something you can't escape, and it's something that brings Batman and the Joker on the same level to the masses - the same two freaks (a theme that Batman '89 is inherently based on!) So yeah, knowing that the two clashed wouldn't diminish theevents of The Dark Knight.

Just think what it means for Bane though - he's somewhat of an evolution on the freaks anyway since he's the one who manipulated them in Knightfall. I think we'll see that evolution with Bane, that shift in the way things are with the Dark Knight around, come TDKR.
A great deal of this depends on how Nolan plays TDKR, both in terms of how it addresses the 8 year gap and how it ends Bruce's story in general. If the story ends with Batman stood atop a building ready to protect Gotham for as long as it takes then the dynamic as played out in the comics could exist after Nolan wraps his story up.

In terms of the preceding 8 years it may very well be alluded to that in the years following TDK Batman faced off against a number of 'freaks'. On the other hand it may be suggested that Bruce has been patrolling every night simply to take down petty thugs and the last remnants of the mob in a crusade to address his grief and anger at his parents and Rachel's death. If that's the case then the idea that The Joker led in a procession of criminals for Bats to face isn't actually the case.

It's also dependent on how Dent's crimes are exploited by Bane. If he does break the news to Gotham's citizens that Harvey Dent was corrupted by The Joker (I should make it clear that I'm not averse to a mention of The Joker if it is relevant) and that he ended his life a murderer then The Joker's resonance will automatically be felt without the need to shoe horn in a reference purely to pay lip service to fans.

The only problem I have is the suggestion that Batman and The Joker have had a running battle in the years between TDK and TDKR. This isn't a dismissal of the character and dynamic as represented in the comics. It simply raises two key questions for me in terms of the world Nolan has created for these characters:

1 - If The Joker is mentioned as having a running battle with Batman where he easily escapes from Arkham then why shouldn't he appear in TDKR as a genuine and constant threat? He's already been established as a master criminal who can influence situations to suit his will, why wouldn't he want to play in Bane's Gotham? If it's acknowledged that he's escaped in the past then the GA may be waiting for an appearance of some sort... it takes attention away from Bane as the primary and singular threat (obviously if Ledger was alive and we saw Bane nullify The Joker then it would be another issue... but that's not going to happen).

2. If The Joker and Bats have had battles in the interim then why hasn't The Joker already taken the opportunity to expose Gordon and Batman's ruse about Dent? Surely if he was free the first thing he would do is expose the fact that the GCPD Commissioner has lied to the entire city: it would be a perfect chance to let anarchy run wild through Gotham.




Quote:
Originally Posted by ThePhantasm View Post


Chill. I'm not "vehemently opposed" to a mention. What I am opposed to is

1) The idea that a mention is necessary because Jokers absence will be some big plot hole (it isn't).

2) A mention just for the heck of it. If there is going to be a mention, it should have a real purpose. Dent's picture in Bane's hand obviously has a purpose.

3) A mention at the close of the movie. Heck no.

I've argued against all of those things in this thread.

I also don't get why so many people are demanding that a reference happen. If it happens for a good reason, I'm cool with it. But why does it HAVE to happen?
Also this.

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Old 11-26-2011, 07:24 PM   #350
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Default Re: The Joker sized elephant in the room

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Originally Posted by ThePhantasm View Post

Chill. I'm not "vehemently opposed" to a mention. What I am opposed to is

1) The idea that a mention is necessary because Jokers absence will be some big plot hole (it isn't).

2) A mention just for the heck of it. If there is going to be a mention, it should have a real purpose. Dent's picture in Bane's hand obviously has a purpose.

3) A mention at the close of the movie. Heck no.

I've argued against all of those things in this thread.

I also don't get why so many people are demanding that a reference happen. If it happens for a good reason, I'm cool with it. But why does it HAVE to happen?
1. I don't see anyone saying it will be. A plot hole is something that defies logic in a story. It's not illogical for Joker to still be locked up.

2. Of course. Nobody wants a "Hey Batman, Bane has taken over City Hall. By the way remember the Joker, he was crazy. Anyway about Bane..." type reference.

3. You mean talking about him in the final scene?

Nobody is demanding anything. People just really would like a reference. I don't know where the dramatics, like in jmc's post, are coming from.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nave 'Torment' View Post
It's not about fanboy boners though... the character made an impact on Batman and Gotham City, and I think it's a BETTER idea altogether to have him at least alluded to. It's okay if you dont, you can always tell a complete story that way, but why not close the trilogy with a sense of continuity? The Joker is the Batman's dark reflection, the antithesis of Batman, what he learned during his encounter with him is major character-development. Especially when you're making trilogies. Mentioning him makes that growth all the more visible.
Exactly.

Given that the Dent situation is being referenced in some major way, the Joker references can easily be slipped into that plot since Joker was the defining factor for all of that happening.

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