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Old 08-10-2012, 11:10 AM   #276
UaalaDan
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Default Re: Superman/Clark Kent/Kal-El Characterization - Part 1

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and you forget one simple little truth about Kal-El:

no matter how much he wants a normal life, he will never have one.
So what? Clark is his dream to have a normal life. It's a balance he achieves because of his 2 traits. Just because he can't, that doesn't mean he doesn't keep trying everyday.

This how i see it. Superman saves the world and by the end of the day, he still has time to hang out with friends, watch a movie and do simple things. This is the part of him that allows him to connect with us. It's the part of him that keeps him in check.

Clark is a disguise, I agree with that in the matter of faking that he doesn't have powers and all, but the point I'm making is that HE IS NOT JUST A DISGUISE.

That's a kind of Clark Kent I really haven't seen updated to the 21st century. I think a middle term between post-crisis and pre-crisis can be achieved.

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Old 08-10-2012, 11:11 AM   #277
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Default Re: Superman/Clark Kent/Kal-El Characterization - Part 1

seeing that they're going with a heavy focus on his Kryptonian/alien heritage in the new movie, i wouldnt be surprised if they made Clark the disguise and Superman/Kal-El as the real person...

in fact, I'd welcome it

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Old 08-10-2012, 11:14 AM   #278
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Default Re: Superman/Clark Kent/Kal-El Characterization - Part 1

It seems that they're going for a middle term which is the right way to go.

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Old 08-10-2012, 11:20 AM   #279
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Default Re: Superman/Clark Kent/Kal-El Characterization - Part 1

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So what? Clark is his dream to have a normal life. It's a balance he achieves because of his 2 traits. Just because he can't, that doesn't mean he doesn't keep trying everyday.

This how i see it. Superman saves the world and by the end of the day, he still has time to hang out with friends, watch a movie and do simple things. This is the part of him that allows him to connect with us. It's the part of him that keeps him in check.

Clark is a disguise, I agree with that, but the point I'm making is that HE IS NOT JUST A DISGUISE.
"And who, disguised as Clark Kent,..."

Clark Kent is most definitely the disguise, while Superman/Kal-El is the real person...

Kal-El can try all he wants, but he's never going to achieve it... i would agree with you when you say Kal-El "wants" to be normal, but the plain hard truth is that no matter hard or much he wants to be normal, he is not and never will be normal; there is no getting around that simple fact. He can make as many personas and disguises as he wants to hide who he truly is, but at the end of the day- until he makes that decision to completely forsake his homeworld- the disguise of Clark Kent will never be a real person until Kal-El dies.

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Old 08-10-2012, 11:36 AM   #280
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Default Re: Superman/Clark Kent/Kal-El Characterization - Part 1

Nah. I think Superman wants so much to have a normal life that sometimes he gets lost in the quest. Clark is a close as he is going to get to be normal and that's ok with me. I think Superman does love the simple things of life like going to movies, writing an article, having normal food and all. That's his dream and way to connect with us. Unless something happens just like "Whatever happened to the man of tomorrow?". That was a perfect ending.

I also disagree with the interpretations Superman is JUST a job. That's not entirely true. Superman is the person Clark grew up to be. But i think inside that quest for truth, justice and the American way, there's also a a quest to continue to be Clark Kent, to be normal. And only Superman can make these 2 sides of his personality achieve a balance. It really is a split personality.

Like I said, it doesn't have to be black and white. There could be a middle term.


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Old 08-10-2012, 11:56 AM   #281
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Default Re: Superman/Clark Kent/Kal-El Characterization - Part 1

you're right, the quest will continue, but it will never come to an end... not unless he ends it himself. One can want something all their life, but if it is impossible to reach, no matter how much you want it, it's never going to come to fruition. that's why i think Clark is the disguise... it is Kal-El fooling himself into thinking he is just as normal as any other person.

but therein lies the biggest problem: because of Kryptonian technology, Kal-El has the ability to become a full-blood human, but in order to become human, Kal-El and Superman will never exist again... so there is the ultimate choice for this character:

remain as Kal-El, continue to be Superman, and never truly be Clark
become Clark, let Kal-El die, and never again be Superman

that is the greatest choice for the character

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Old 08-10-2012, 01:01 PM   #282
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Default Re: Superman/Clark Kent/Kal-El Characterization - Part 1

When I played contact sport, I was pretty aggressive while (normally) staying within the rules. Off the field I can't remember the last time I was genuinely angry. Was I acting on the field? No. Am I acting all calm and relaxed now? No.

Do I have multiple personality disorder? Hell I hope not!!!

Superman and Clark Kent are the same person who behaves appropriately when required. Yes, when he's Clark he's exaggerating, but it's Clark Kent acting less, not Superman acting Clark.

Imo of course!


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Old 08-10-2012, 01:15 PM   #283
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Default Re: Superman/Clark Kent/Kal-El Characterization - Part 1

I don't understand how people don't get the Clark/Superman thing. I read a really great article on psychology once where they talked about people's personalities. We have 3 personas, at home (completely open), in public (same person, only more controlled than the at home person) and the professional persona, the sided of your personality your coworkers know.

Just like at home, out at the supermarket or at work any of us will be the same person but different. The at home Omar wears his hair down and swears a lot, I'm not that guy out in public and I certainly am not out dropping f-bombs and having my hair all over the place like I'm Troy Palamalo at work.

Clark is all 3. His parents know all sides of his personality. People also know the professional Clark in his working environment, then there's Superman, the persona the world sees. All the same guy, just slightly different depending on what the situation needs.

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Old 08-10-2012, 01:54 PM   #284
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Default Re: Superman/Clark Kent/Kal-El Characterization - Part 1

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i really dont care about that Smallville/Byrne crap. all that "im a normal human with powers" is ridiculous... when I watched Superman as a kid, and even when i watch it today, i dont read it for Clark... I read it for SUPERMAN.
Superman is still Superman. Clark is just more fleshed out. I don't understand why that galls some.

lol...you are serious for pre-crisis. I get that. Have you enjoyed any recent Superman in the last...thirty some years...aside from Frank?

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I've heard so many people talk about how Superman would kill Lois if they ever had sex, but I've never heard someone make this point before and it's brilliant. If Superman's bodily fluids are so dangerous, then he'd have to use a kryptonite toilet every time he takes a dump.
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Old 08-10-2012, 01:56 PM   #285
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Default Re: Superman/Clark Kent/Kal-El Characterization - Part 1

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Clark is all 3. His parents know all sides of his personality. People also know the professional Clark in his working environment, then there's Superman, the persona the world sees. All the same guy, just slightly different depending on what the situation needs.
This

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I've heard so many people talk about how Superman would kill Lois if they ever had sex, but I've never heard someone make this point before and it's brilliant. If Superman's bodily fluids are so dangerous, then he'd have to use a kryptonite toilet every time he takes a dump.
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Old 08-10-2012, 02:05 PM   #286
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Default Re: Superman/Clark Kent/Kal-El Characterization - Part 1

Do We Have A Public And Private Self?
The idea of a private and public persona comes from social psychology, the word persona originating from the Latin meaning ‘mask’. Do we wear different masks depending on the situations we find ourselves in? What is our private and public self?

Our private self consists of what we are and feel inside, while our public self is the identity we present to others. Our private self is the part of us that we want to keep hidden while our public self is the part of us that we want others to see and acknowledge. Both persona’s influence our behaviour because there is a difference between how we are when by ourselves, and how we are when in the public eye.

Private Self dominant: we behave according to our own values and beliefs, are more self aware, prone to anger when provoked and more likely to experience regular mood changes. We are able to disclose private aspects of ourselves to loved ones and close friends with ease and often analyse our own behaviour.

Public Self dominant: we tend to be more sensitive to rejection by groups, readily comply with other’s expectations, conform to social values and place a great deal of importance on our social identity. We are good at predicting the impression we make on others.

However, we don’t necessarily fit into one group all of the time and there can be some crossover. We all have public and private elements to our personality. For example, a person who is private self dominant may well feel different in a group of people they are familiar and at ease with. Clients may be struggling to understand ‘who is the real me?’ and may benefit from considering questions that gently examine both elements of their personality. Questions may include “for whose benefit is your public self?”

It is also worth remembering that some aspects of our public self are defense mechanisms, such as putting on a brave face, which we may believe maintains our self esteem and confidence.
http://counsellingcentral.com/do-we-...-private-self/

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Old 08-10-2012, 02:25 PM   #287
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Default Re: Superman/Clark Kent/Kal-El Characterization - Part 1

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Superman is still Superman. Clark is just more fleshed out. I don't understand why that galls some.

lol...you are serious for pre-crisis. I get that. Have you enjoyed any recent Superman in the last...thirty some years...aside from Frank?
i loved the first years of Superman's run (1938-1950), before they started to run away with Superman's powers... an adopted aunt of mine bought me the DC Archives Edition volumes 1-4 of Superman, Superman #1-#16, and for the most part, with the exceptions of the Death/World Without/Return of Superman, i grew up on those volumes, and i read those, as a kid, almost religiously. it was from those comics in which i became hooked to Superman

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Old 08-10-2012, 02:31 PM   #288
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Default Re: Superman/Clark Kent/Kal-El Characterization - Part 1

I get that. My father is more pre-crisis. He thinks the Superman of today is a wimp....lol. His words. This is why I understand the fervor of those who love pre-crisis. It truly is a different Superman then the one most know today. Yet, I like a fleshed out Clark. I like the fact that by fleshing out Clark you add more dynamics to the character. Plus, I also think when you flesh out Clark it helps to explain some of Superman's basic motivations. Otherwise he is too God like for me. I do not like Superman = Jesus. I have never liked that.

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I've heard so many people talk about how Superman would kill Lois if they ever had sex, but I've never heard someone make this point before and it's brilliant. If Superman's bodily fluids are so dangerous, then he'd have to use a kryptonite toilet every time he takes a dump.
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Old 08-10-2012, 03:43 PM   #289
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Default Re: Superman/Clark Kent/Kal-El Characterization - Part 1

i dont have a problem with the story-tellers fleshing out Clark, but the thing is, no matter how much Clark is fleshed out, this person is still a figment of imagination to the world.

I'm with you in disliking the Christ parallels with Superman. I can't stand it, whether it be as a Christian myself, or simply a Superman fan. I do, though, understand the wish and desire of Jor-El that his son grow up and show love to those around them instead of becoming an alien tyrant

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Old 08-10-2012, 04:01 PM   #290
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Default Re: Superman/Clark Kent/Kal-El Characterization - Part 1

What I do want to see from Superman really?

I've always believed Superman to be the evolution of Clark's nature, of wanting to help, save and inspire. He wouldn't be Superman without his alien powers, but he wouldn't be Superman without his human nature either.

If he had no powers, I think he would have went on to become either a policeman, fireman or a doctor. He could have went on to become a teacher, or even a priest!

Superman himself shouldn't be treat out of this world just because of his powers, it should be his personality too. He should be inserted into a world where his morals and values are not appreciated anymore, and he struggles with that just as much as the fact that he's an alien. Feeling almost completely alone as regards to his race and his personality. He just doesn't fit anywhere.

But something within him should click. No other force but Clark's heart and mind should push him to become Superman. He's going to go out and do what he believes in, and that's to help and hopefully inspire along the way, which it will.

And I really hope that he's written as a character that will inspire and be uplifting to the audience watching as well. Fingers crossed

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Old 08-10-2012, 04:01 PM   #291
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Default Re: Superman/Clark Kent/Kal-El Characterization - Part 1

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i dont have a problem with the story-tellers fleshing out Clark, but the thing is, no matter how much Clark is fleshed out, this person is still a figment of imagination to the world.
I understand where you are coming from, but I disagree with this. By making Clark a figment then you disregard the influence the Kents had on Superman/Clark's formative years. I think by making Clark more then just a figment, you add more nuance to his motivations and the desires his father, Jor-El, wanted for him.

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I've heard so many people talk about how Superman would kill Lois if they ever had sex, but I've never heard someone make this point before and it's brilliant. If Superman's bodily fluids are so dangerous, then he'd have to use a kryptonite toilet every time he takes a dump.
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Old 08-10-2012, 04:08 PM   #292
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Default Re: Superman/Clark Kent/Kal-El Characterization - Part 1

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I understand where you are coming from, but I disagree with this. By making Clark a figment then you disregard the influence the Kents had on Superman/Clark's formative years. I think by making Clark more then just a figment, you add more nuance to his motivations and the desires his father, Jor-El, wanted for him.
My two cents: I try to look at is as Clark/Kal are the same person. It's the Clark that works and lives in Metropolis that is the guise.

I'm kinda on the fence where Superman fits in. I'm fine with it being:

1) Clark/Kal/Superman
2) Metropolis Clark

and I'm also fine with it being:

1) Clark/Kal
2) Metropolis Clark
3) Superman

Regardless, for me, Smallville Clark is always there.

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Old 08-10-2012, 04:24 PM   #293
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Default Re: Superman/Clark Kent/Kal-El Characterization - Part 1

lol...I know this will BURN SuperKal up, but my personal favorite is the explanation given on Lois and Clark.

"Clark is who I am Superman is what I can do"

I personally don't really think Kal fits into the equation at all unless Superman is dealing with familiar "aliens" like MM and Wondy. Noticeably, Batman when not referring to him as Superman calls him Clark.

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Originally Posted by Rowsdower! View Post
I've heard so many people talk about how Superman would kill Lois if they ever had sex, but I've never heard someone make this point before and it's brilliant. If Superman's bodily fluids are so dangerous, then he'd have to use a kryptonite toilet every time he takes a dump.
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Old 08-10-2012, 04:28 PM   #294
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Default Re: Superman/Clark Kent/Kal-El Characterization - Part 1

I think the point we're trying to make is that "Metropolis Clark" isn't JUST a disguise. I mean, he really likes to be a journalist, he has friends like Lois, Perry, Jimmy, Bibbo and all.

Even if the glasses, some accentuated mannerisms and all are part of a disguise, i don't think his mind is, you know? Or his relationships and way he sees the world.

I'd prefer a Clark that is jut quiet, reserved, mild-mannered instead of bumbling, unsure of himself and weak.

It really is part of Superman`s personality that was also shaped by the Kents. He really is 2 people. A split personality.

The scenario is...when Clark decided to be Superman, he split himself in 2:

1)Superman

2)Clark went to school for journalism, traveled the world, got a job in the planet, etc.


How hard is to understand this?? Clark is Superman's way of dealing with his human psyche. His dream to be normal person. Only a person as fast and as amazing as Superman can actually divide himself and deal with these 2 opposite traits that shaped his life. Clark is still Superman's learning experience of humanity and Superman is his way to solve the problems of the world he learns by being Clark.

The Kent's shaped his morals and values and Clark is his ongoing learning experience of humanity. One cannot exist without the other.


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Old 08-10-2012, 05:26 PM   #295
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Default Re: Superman/Clark Kent/Kal-El Characterization - Part 1

SuperKal does not see it this way because he prefers the pre-crisis version of Superman. In that version he is only Superman. The dual personality thing is Byrne's doing and the cause of a lot of arguements.

Kal's not wrong for viewing it that way. A lot of people do actually.

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Originally Posted by Rowsdower! View Post
I've heard so many people talk about how Superman would kill Lois if they ever had sex, but I've never heard someone make this point before and it's brilliant. If Superman's bodily fluids are so dangerous, then he'd have to use a kryptonite toilet every time he takes a dump.
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Old 08-10-2012, 06:56 PM   #296
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Default Re: Superman/Clark Kent/Kal-El Characterization - Part 1

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Thanks for making sense of some of my gibberish. I was in a hurry to go to someone's house when I typed that so a couple of those sentences needed translation. I take it as a friendly reminder that proofreading is my friend.

I understand what you say when you mention that some part of the Superman persona is a lie in the sense that he doesn't reveal all the information about his life. He isn't fully transparent. In all honesty, that's deception I can like with. This deception serves a specific purpose: to protect his loved ones. I'm not comfortable with any deception from Superman, but I can live with that.

I wouldn't be able to tolerate a version of Clark Kent that knows he is imperfect, but decides to create this false image of a perfect hero in a misguided attempt to inspire others. There's several problems with this idea. One, unless a person believes you have to be perfect to inspire good in others, the whole perfect facade would be completely unneccessary. You could be imperfect and still get the desired result. Two, if an imperfect person tried to pretend to be perfect at some point they'll get exposed. No imperfect person would ever be able to live up to a perfect image indefinitely. At some point people would see flaws and then what would happen to inspirational value that he hoped to have?

Superman as I imagine him would be the first person to tell everyone: "I'm not perfect."

I have to disagree when you say all Superman's interactions with people are what they are because they believe him to be something he is not. Let me put it to you this way. When you meet someone new is it necessary to know who their parents are, what the name of their hometown is, etc., to understand who they are? Sure all those bits of information could help to understand someone better, but are they necessary? I look at how they treat me, how they treat others, how they live, and that is usually enough.

If people see the way Superman lives and they come away believing he's the world's greatest hero... they know exactly who he is.

I have really enjoyed this conversation. And you're right. The more I've read your posts, the more I've come to believe we are on the same page in terms of how we want Superman portrayed. Not as a fake thing that Clark does, not as a distant Kryptonian savior, but as a man that despite coming from another planet, actually represents humanity at its best.
You don't have to know everything about someone no.

But we're not just talking about normal information.

We're talking about people acting they way they do around Superman because they believe he is an alien who only recently arrived on earth.

If they knew he had lived a fairly human life, been raised by human parents, went to school, has a job etc... the way they saw him, and the way they acted around him, would be completely different.

So I just don't see how that persona can be 'real'.

He can't ever form any real connection with someone who only knows Superman, and doesn't have a clue who he REALLY is.

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Old 08-10-2012, 07:30 PM   #297
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Default Re: Superman/Clark Kent/Kal-El Characterization - Part 1

The public can't understand Superman if they know only basic facts
"I'm an alien. I'm here to do good"

That's what causes people like Lex to be suspicious.

But you can admire someone so much for doing what they do you that go and want to do something like them. Without knowing who they really are. Even if Superman inspires 1 person to go out his way to help somebody weaker than him, he's made a difference. Like the copycats from TDK.

And I understand that's WAY different. Batman inspired those guys to fight crime. Superman is meant inspire lending a hand to others weaker than you are. He's designed to be friendly and trusting to the public. But that's most likely the worst thing he could do. People thinking
"Nah...what's he trying to pull without a mask and that friendly smile? He's hiding something."

Like everyone in life, I imagine people in this Superman franchise to love and hate him.

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I believe in Batfleck

Things I have been right about before they were confirmed -
Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
1. Superman having no trunks
2. Bruce Wayne retiring and Batman being made a martyr
3. Bryan Cranston NOT being Lex Luthor
4. Joker being the big bad in Batman: Arkham Origins
5. Green Goblin not wearing a mask and being mutated
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Old 08-10-2012, 07:52 PM   #298
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Default Re: Superman/Clark Kent/Kal-El Characterization - Part 1

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SuperKal does not see it this way because he prefers the pre-crisis version of Superman. In that version he is only Superman. The dual personality thing is Byrne's doing and the cause of a lot of arguements.

Kal's not wrong for viewing it that way. A lot of people do actually.
No. My view is actually different from Byrne's. Byrne's Clark was a jock in highschool, a famous guy. Also, in his version, Superman was born on Earth and is the deguise and I don't really agree with that.

My view is that both Clark and Superman are real, different parts of the same personality. Something like a middle term between post-crisis and pre-crisis. I'd say my view is pre-crisis with Clark more fleshed out and less of a fake persona. It's Superman trying to have a normal life as much as he can.


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Old 08-10-2012, 07:59 PM   #299
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You don't have to know everything about someone no.

But we're not just talking about normal information.

We're talking about people acting they way they do around Superman because they believe he is an alien who only recently arrived on earth.

If they knew he had lived a fairly human life, been raised by human parents, went to school, has a job etc... the way they saw him, and the way they acted around him, would be completely different.

So I just don't see how that persona can be 'real'.

He can't ever form any real connection with someone who only knows Superman, and doesn't have a clue who he REALLY is.
You say like Superman is this alien who is not open to have friends and I don't necessarily agree with this. Even famous people have famous friends. It's similar to this. Batman is his friend, Wonder Woman, Jimmy, Bibbo, directors of orphanages, etc. Superman is not a normal celebrity. He is known to be the friendliest guy on Earth.

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Old 08-10-2012, 08:03 PM   #300
charl_huntress
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Default Re: Superman/Clark Kent/Kal-El Characterization - Part 1

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Originally Posted by UaalaDan View Post
No. My view is actually different from Byrne's. Byrne's Clark was a jock in highschool, a famous guy. Also, in his version, Superman was born on Earth and is the deguise and I don't really agree with that.

My view is that both Clark and Superman are real, different parts of the same personality. Something like a middle term between post-crisis and pre-crisis. I'd say my view is pre-crisis with Clark more fleshed out and less of a fake persona. It's Superman trying to have a normal life as much as he can.
I see, though I do not think there is much of a difference between what you are saying and what Bryne actually did.

meh...I am 100% for post-crisis, so for me Superman is Clark Kent.

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I've heard so many people talk about how Superman would kill Lois if they ever had sex, but I've never heard someone make this point before and it's brilliant. If Superman's bodily fluids are so dangerous, then he'd have to use a kryptonite toilet every time he takes a dump.
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