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Old 08-05-2012, 08:01 AM   #126
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Default Re: The ultimate goal of Man Of Steel and what it means to be Superman.

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I love Kill Bill, but Tarantino doesn't understand Kal-El.
I just meant the whole, superman is the guy, Clark is the costume is all.

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Old 08-05-2012, 09:40 AM   #127
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Default Re: The ultimate goal of Man Of Steel and what it means to be Superman.

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Money isn't a problem for someone with Superman powers. Clark chooses to live like a human but it's not like the only alternative is becoming evil like Lex or Zod. He could just as easily choose to become a lazy bum with the Midas touch. Point being, it all depends what kind of person you are and how you were raised. Some would abuse the power for more power, most would be content with being able to fly.
Okay... well if he's just a "lazy bum" with the Midas Touch, chances are he's not working. And then chances are he can't afford things like food and rent, among other things.

How would he maintain a normal life? Eventually he'd have to choose to either work... or take what he needs. Either that or just ignore his powers altogether and lead a normal existence.

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Old 08-05-2012, 10:00 AM   #128
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I just meant the whole, superman is the guy, Clark is the costume is all.
Which is wrong. Both are costumes. One is an impossible ideal used to inspire, while the other lets him live amongst. The real guy, the one that sits and talks with his mother or with his wife. That guy isn't Superman or Clark.

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Old 08-05-2012, 10:02 AM   #129
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Okay... well if he's just a "lazy bum" with the Midas Touch, chances are he's not working. And then chances are he can't afford things like food and rent, among other things.

How would he maintain a normal life? Eventually he'd have to choose to either work... or take what he needs. Either that or just ignore his powers altogether and lead a normal existence.
I think you missed the point of the Midas touch reference. It explains just that.

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Old 08-05-2012, 10:21 AM   #130
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Default Re: The ultimate goal of Man Of Steel and what it means to be Superman.

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Which is wrong. Both are costumes. One is an impossible ideal used to inspire, while the other lets him live amongst. The real guy, the one that sits and talks with his mother or with his wife. That guy isn't Superman or Clark.
So much this. I love it when I find another person that understand this the way that I do.

'Superman' and 'Clark Kent' are just names for his disguises. Yes, Clark Kent is the name that he grew up with, and yes, Superman is the disguise in which he has to hide the least about himself, but they are still BOTH disguises.

The minute he decided to lead two different lives, his childhood name became a part of that disguise.

I mean, he still thinks of himself as Clark. Like, if he was annoyed at himself for something, he'd say 'dammit Clark, what are you doing?'

But the 'persona' of Clark Kent is no longer a real person.

That real person is someone you can only know or understand why knowing the secret, that he is both people.

Fortunately, as the audience, we do know the secret. So we get to see the 'real' Clark a lot of the time. Not just through Lois or the Kents, but in a lot of graphic novels for instance, we get great inner monologues from him that give us an insight into what it's like.

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"The problem," Pa used to say, "is people. As far back as we go, we've always had problems with sharing. Seems everyone's too busy holding on to what they've got to care how their neighbors are doing."


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Old 08-05-2012, 12:29 PM   #131
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Which is wrong. Both are costumes. One is an impossible ideal used to inspire, while the other lets him live amongst. The real guy, the one that sits and talks with his mother or with his wife. That guy isn't Superman or Clark.
I see what you're saying, that makes alot of sense.

Kudos, sir

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Old 08-05-2012, 01:04 PM   #132
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Default Re: The ultimate goal of Man Of Steel and what it means to be Superman.

Superman is the real thing. Clark Kent is his disguise. Fact.

Welcome to 2008, see the following (informative) discussions:

Mark Millar's Many Thoughts on Superman... again:

http://forums.superherohype.com/show...=#post15162228

Post-Crisis or Pre-Crisis:

http://forums.superherohype.com/show...=#post15561825

Reboot: Character Portrayal:

http://forums.superherohype.com/show...=#post15650718

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Old 08-05-2012, 01:05 PM   #133
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Default Re: The ultimate goal of Man Of Steel and what it means to be Superman.

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Superman is the real thing. Clark Kent is his disguise. Opinion.
Fixed.

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I think back to my father. As a farmer, he had a natural understanding for the Earth. I remember him telling me this world is capable of providing for all its creatures. Even now, with so many more people, there exists enough food for everyone.

"The problem," Pa used to say, "is people. As far back as we go, we've always had problems with sharing. Seems everyone's too busy holding on to what they've got to care how their neighbors are doing."


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Old 08-05-2012, 01:10 PM   #134
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Default Re: The ultimate goal of Man Of Steel and what it means to be Superman.

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Fixed.
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Old 08-05-2012, 07:16 PM   #135
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Default Re: The ultimate goal of Man Of Steel and what it means to be Superman.

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So much this. I love it when I find another person that understand this the way that I do.

'Superman' and 'Clark Kent' are just names for his disguises. Yes, Clark Kent is the name that he grew up with, and yes, Superman is the disguise in which he has to hide the least about himself, but they are still BOTH disguises.

The minute he decided to lead two different lives, his childhood name became a part of that disguise.

I mean, he still thinks of himself as Clark. Like, if he was annoyed at himself for something, he'd say 'dammit Clark, what are you doing?'

But the 'persona' of Clark Kent is no longer a real person.

That real person is someone you can only know or understand why knowing the secret, that he is both people.

Fortunately, as the audience, we do know the secret. So we get to see the 'real' Clark a lot of the time. Not just through Lois or the Kents, but in a lot of graphic novels for instance, we get great inner monologues from him that give us an insight into what it's like.
Very well said. I love those moments of quiet contemplation from Clark.

To help distinguish, I usually call the 'real Clark' Kal-El.

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Old 08-05-2012, 08:10 PM   #136
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Default Re: The ultimate goal of Man Of Steel and what it means to be Superman.

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Very well said. I love those moments of quiet contemplation from Clark.

To help distinguish, I usually call the 'real Clark' Kal-El.
Yeah I know what you mean, I just try not to use that name either, because you say the real person is 'Kal-el' and people immediately assume you mean that his kryptonian side is the only real side... which obviously isn't how I feel at all.

I guess 'farm Clark' is the closest name I can get that really explains how I feel, but most people misconstue that as well.

I don't put EITHER side of him above the other. I see ALL of him, as a whole person, and while both are disguises, neither of them isn't 'real'... both Superman and Clark are two parts of the same real person.

TBH, I just freaking hate the whole 'Which is the real person' debate altogether.

It doesn't apply to ANY Superhero if you ask me. It is just not that simple.

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I think back to my father. As a farmer, he had a natural understanding for the Earth. I remember him telling me this world is capable of providing for all its creatures. Even now, with so many more people, there exists enough food for everyone.

"The problem," Pa used to say, "is people. As far back as we go, we've always had problems with sharing. Seems everyone's too busy holding on to what they've got to care how their neighbors are doing."


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Old 08-05-2012, 08:28 PM   #137
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Default Re: The ultimate goal of Man Of Steel and what it means to be Superman.

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So much this. I love it when I find another person that understand this the way that I do.

'Superman' and 'Clark Kent' are just names for his disguises. Yes, Clark Kent is the name that he grew up with, and yes, Superman is the disguise in which he has to hide the least about himself, but they are still BOTH disguises.

The minute he decided to lead two different lives, his childhood name became a part of that disguise.

I mean, he still thinks of himself as Clark. Like, if he was annoyed at himself for something, he'd say 'dammit Clark, what are you doing?'

But the 'persona' of Clark Kent is no longer a real person.

That real person is someone you can only know or understand why knowing the secret, that he is both people.

Fortunately, as the audience, we do know the secret. So we get to see the 'real' Clark a lot of the time. Not just through Lois or the Kents, but in a lot of graphic novels for instance, we get great inner monologues from him that give us an insight into what it's like.

So in other words...



*Clark Kent is the dude that's playing the dude that's disguised as another dude*

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Old 08-05-2012, 08:39 PM   #138
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Default Re: The ultimate goal of Man Of Steel and what it means to be Superman.

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Yeah I know what you mean, I just try not to use that name either, because you say the real person is 'Kal-el' and people immediately assume you mean that his kryptonian side is the only real side... which obviously isn't how I feel at all.

I guess 'farm Clark' is the closest name I can get that really explains how I feel, but most people misconstue that as well.

I don't put EITHER side of him above the other. I see ALL of him, as a whole person, and while both are disguises, neither of them isn't 'real'... both Superman and Clark are two parts of the same real person.

TBH, I just freaking hate the whole 'Which is the real person' debate altogether.

It doesn't apply to ANY Superhero if you ask me. It is just not that simple.
So in other words, his identity is that of a prom dress made from used carpet remnants. It is made from fragments of each persona, but neither one is truly above the other?

My head is starting to hurt.

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Old 08-05-2012, 08:54 PM   #139
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Default Re: The ultimate goal of Man Of Steel and what it means to be Superman.

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So in other words...



*Clark Kent is the dude that's playing the dude that's disguised as another dude*
Literally LOL!!!

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Old 08-05-2012, 08:55 PM   #140
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Default Re: The ultimate goal of Man Of Steel and what it means to be Superman.

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So in other words...



*Clark Kent is the dude that's playing the dude that's disguised as another dude*


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So in other words, his identity is that of a prom dress made from used carpet remnants. It is made from fragments of each persona, but neither one is truly above the other?

My head is starting to hurt.


It's not THAT complicated I'm not sure I even understand where the prom dress analogy has come from!

It just hate it when people get all black and white on one side or the other of this eternal, never ending debate. Because NO ONE IS RIGHT!

Except me, of course

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I think back to my father. As a farmer, he had a natural understanding for the Earth. I remember him telling me this world is capable of providing for all its creatures. Even now, with so many more people, there exists enough food for everyone.

"The problem," Pa used to say, "is people. As far back as we go, we've always had problems with sharing. Seems everyone's too busy holding on to what they've got to care how their neighbors are doing."


*\S/T*
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Old 08-05-2012, 09:06 PM   #141
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Default Re: The ultimate goal of Man Of Steel and what it means to be Superman.

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It's not THAT complicated I'm not sure I even understand where the prom dress analogy has come from!

It just hate it when people get all black and white on one side or the other of this eternal, never ending debate. Because NO ONE IS RIGHT!

Except me, of course


Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
See Futurama, season 3, episode 7, "The Day the Earth Stood Stupid".



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Old 08-05-2012, 09:13 PM   #142
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Default Re: The ultimate goal of Man Of Steel and what it means to be Superman.

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Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
See Futurama, season 3, episode 7, "The Day the Earth Stood Stupid".


Ah okay, I will do

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I think back to my father. As a farmer, he had a natural understanding for the Earth. I remember him telling me this world is capable of providing for all its creatures. Even now, with so many more people, there exists enough food for everyone.

"The problem," Pa used to say, "is people. As far back as we go, we've always had problems with sharing. Seems everyone's too busy holding on to what they've got to care how their neighbors are doing."


*\S/T*
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Old 08-05-2012, 11:56 PM   #143
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Default Re: Superman/Clark Kent/Kal-El Characterization - Part 1

I've all ways thought of it as a trinity. Private Clark/Kal-El (The real Persona), Public Clark (The Clark he wants his immediate peers to perceive him as), and Superman (The Politician/Statesman aka the symbol of what a person should try to be).

They're all 100% Clark. The only difference is that Public Clark and Superman are just Clark+. They aren't acts. They're just Clark with a little something extra tacked on to the persona.

Private Clark = Normal Clark
Public Clark = Flawed Clark
Superman = Moral/Perfect Clark

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Old 08-06-2012, 02:40 AM   #144
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Default Re: Superman/Clark Kent/Kal-El Characterization - Part 1

The problem I have with that, is Clark is only honest in private. With public Clark and Superman he is putting on an act. They are aspects of himself, but they aren't who he truly is.

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Old 08-06-2012, 02:46 AM   #145
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Default Re: Superman/Clark Kent/Kal-El Characterization - Part 1

We need to note that in the Silver Age, Clark Kent was the disguise. You can argue that farmboy Clark is the "real" guy, but that's going by one interpretation.

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Old 08-06-2012, 04:08 AM   #146
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We need to note that in the Silver Age, Clark Kent was the disguise. You can argue that farmboy Clark is the "real" guy, but that's going by one interpretation.
Even in Silver Age, he grew up on a farm in kansas as Clark Kent.

Yes, in Silver Age (and Golden Age for that matter), Clark grows up to be Superman and the persona of Clark Kent he uses pretty much only as a disguise.

And it's a lot harder to interpret the way he thought of himself back then, because (correct me if i'm wrong), there were not so many inner monologues back in those days.

However, I very much doubt that even back then we can logically assume his inner dialogue would be something like 'Oh Superman, what have you done'... it'd still be 'Oh Clark, what have you done'.

And by logically assume, I mean try and look at this from the point of view of a human mind, which can't simply erase the identity it was raised in/that the mind formed around.

Yes, Superman is the identity in which he can 'be himself' more, especially in Golden/Silver Age where his Clark Kent reflects much less of his own actually personality and has many more 'fake' attributes that contribute to the disguise... but it is STILL not as simple as saying 'Superman is the real person.'

At the end of the day, the real person is still the guy who was raised on the farm, who dresses up as Superman and dresses up as Clark Kent.

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I think back to my father. As a farmer, he had a natural understanding for the Earth. I remember him telling me this world is capable of providing for all its creatures. Even now, with so many more people, there exists enough food for everyone.

"The problem," Pa used to say, "is people. As far back as we go, we've always had problems with sharing. Seems everyone's too busy holding on to what they've got to care how their neighbors are doing."


*\S/T*
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Old 08-06-2012, 05:11 AM   #147
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Default Re: Superman/Clark Kent/Kal-El Characterization - Part 1

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At the end of the day, the real person is still the guy who was raised on the farm, who dresses up as Superman and dresses up as Clark Kent.
The closest to fact we'll ever come with this subject. Or at least that's how MOS will likely shape up and how it should be. Though I'd rather say he becomes Superman rather than dresses.

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Old 08-06-2012, 08:11 AM   #148
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Default Re: The ultimate goal of Man Of Steel and what it means to be Superman.

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So much this. I love it when I find another person that understand this the way that I do.

'Superman' and 'Clark Kent' are just names for his disguises. Yes, Clark Kent is the name that he grew up with, and yes, Superman is the disguise in which he has to hide the least about himself, but they are still BOTH disguises.

The minute he decided to lead two different lives, his childhood name became a part of that disguise.

I mean, he still thinks of himself as Clark. Like, if he was annoyed at himself for something, he'd say 'dammit Clark, what are you doing?'

But the 'persona' of Clark Kent is no longer a real person.

That real person is someone you can only know or understand why knowing the secret, that he is both people.

Fortunately, as the audience, we do know the secret. So we get to see the 'real' Clark a lot of the time. Not just through Lois or the Kents, but in a lot of graphic novels for instance, we get great inner monologues from him that give us an insight into what it's like.
This is my interpretation as well. I've worded it differently in the past, but this is it right here. This, to me, is the most interesting, narratively versatile version of Clark. You can tell a pure Superman story, you can tell a pure Clark story and you can tell mixtures of both, as well as a full features psychologically realistic story, because neither one is "fake" any more than a policeman is a "fake" person when they're in uniform or a parent is a "fake" person when talking to a small child.

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Old 08-06-2012, 11:20 AM   #149
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Default Re: Superman/Clark Kent/Kal-El Characterization - Part 1

Clark Kent can't be just a disguise...because Clark Kent is the personality/person who was around before Superman. He is the morals and values that the Kents inspired, and Clark Kent's experiences, hopes and dreams. But he quickly began to discover that he wasn't just Clark Kent.

Here's the way I look at it: He grew up as Clark Kent, discovered he was Kal-El as a young man, and combined the two to become Superman. He uses elements of his public Clark Kent presentation as a disguise for Superman later on...but Clark Kent is still a very real person who shows his true self to his closest friends and allies. So he's very real.

But So is Superman. So is Kal-El eventually.

This character is unique in that he's not "pretending" to be these distinct things. They are not "disguises". They are all key parts of who he really is. Clark Kent is very real. So is Kal-El. So is Superman. And that's the way the film should approach it.

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Old 08-06-2012, 11:48 AM   #150
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Default Re: Superman/Clark Kent/Kal-El Characterization - Part 1

It's like an Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholic debating about the nature of the Holy Trinity. I would know, considering I'm EO.

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