Who should be the villain in an Avengers sequel? (Poll)

[Chewy]

Originally Posted by cherokeesam

What a surprise --- DrCosmic, Chewy, and WhiskeyTango all come up with the same excuse: "The movies are not the comics."

lol!

Never change, sammy

[MovieMaster]

Calm down girls.

[Whiskey Tango]

Originally Posted by cherokeesam

Yes....yes, they are.

No.

[Chewy]

Anyway, back to the topic.

Do we know if Marvel has the rights to Annihilus? He'd make a great henchman in the Boba Fett/Witch-King mold. And also be perfect for a Guardians sequel

[terry78]

He'd never refer to himself as a henchman though. None of them think of themselves as lackeys in these groups, but temporary partners until they can stab their cohorts in the back.

[Chewy]

Yeah, you gotta let your lackeys think they're big deals if you don't want a mutiny

[DrCosmic]

Originally Posted by cherokeesam

And no, Doc, the MCU has *not* tried to make the case that Thanos is the nemesis of the Avengers, or the "mastermind behind all their problems."

Well, you got me there, I guess he's just the mastermind behind the plot of Avengers.... wait, wasn't that my point? Huh.

[jaqua99]

Originally Posted by cherokeesam

Except for one important fact: the fact that you are greatly, greatly overestimating the importance of Thanos to the Marvel Universe.

Palpatine/Vader, Blofeld and Voldemort were set up to be the nemesis (nemeses?) of their respective heroes. So was Magneto. So was Dr. Doom. So was Loki. So was The Joker. So was Lex Luthor. All of these are *foils.* Nemesis. Archrivals. You expect to see them in their respective heroes' stories.

Thanos is not the archrival or nemesis of The Avengers. In fact, his only true nemesis is a fairly obscure (to general audiences) Marvel (anti-)hero named Adam Warlock. Who is not an Avenger. Oh, and an even more obscure Marvel hero: Eros, or Starfox. Who is an Avenger....but one almost nobody (evne in comic book shops) has ever heard of.

I can count on the fingers of one hand the number of issues that the Avengers have *ever* faced Thanos.

So no, Thanos is not the archenemy of the Avengers. So one would not expect to see him recurring again and again and again in an Avengers franchise.

One would expect to see Thanos in one phase, then see the team move on to other threats in another phase.

Like they've always done in the Avengers comics.

Seriously: it would help some of you guys to actually read the comics before you start speculating on how certain characters and story arcs should develop and be portrayed.

True, but they choose to do what they want. Sure, the excuse "its not the comics", but it doesn't matter, they can do what they want, they are making the movies.

Originally Posted by DrCosmic

Are you ever going to admit that the Marvel Universe and the Marvel Cinematic Universe are not the same universe? Does your browser filter out the word "cinematic?" We're talking about the MCU and you say "No the Marvel Universe isn't like that" and start telling a bunch of comic book nerds they should read comics.

As it stands now, the Avengers is set up with Thanos as the mastermind behind their problems who intends to cause more. He is set up as their nemesis. That's what happened in the film that we all saw. So what does it matter who is his archnemesis in the comics?



I will strive for this level of succinctness.

But chewy is right. MCU is completely different from the comics, just as the ultimates are different from the 616 verse

Originally Posted by cherokeesam

What a surprise --- DrCosmic, Chewy, and WhiskeyTango all come up with the same excuse: "The movies are not the comics."

Yes....yes, they are. Kevin Feige, Jon Favreau, and Joss Whedon in particular have made it abundantly clear that they intend to be as faithful to the spirit and content and character of the comics as possible. Yes, that requires some tweaking of costumes here and there, modernization of concepts that are outdated by several decades, and simplification of story arcs and backstories that have been glommed up by years of retcons and "WTF???" writers, but otherwise, this *is* the Marvel Universe that we comic-book readers have known and loved for generations. Minus some very glaring omissions that remain in the hands of Sony and Fox Studios, of course.

And no, Doc, the MCU has *not* tried to make the case that Thanos is the nemesis of the Avengers, or the "mastermind behind all their problems." Where is it shown that Thanos caused Bruce Banner to get gamma-fied, or square off against Emil Blonsky? Where is Thanos in Iron Man 1 or 2? I also must have missed Thanos in CATFA as well --- was he responsible for the Super-Soldier Serum or something?

The Thor movies are the *only* direct or indirect link the Avengers have to Thanos, through Loki's "gangsta deal," the Cube, and the Gauntlet. (Which you three, IIRC, seem to pretend doesn't exist anyway, since it's a deleted scene and all.) And even Thor is completely unaware of Thanos' existence at this point.

So no: again, Thanos is *not* the nemesis of the Avengers, nor has he been set up to be that. He is just the Big Bad for Phase II, period. Anything beyond that is sheer speculation and wish magic.

I guess. But guys, can we read? He didn't directly say Thanos will be carried into phase 3, but this is what he said,

“There’s a great track record now about lobbing something in at the last moment to get the audience buzzing[...] Particularly when it came to Thanos, [we knew] that most people in that audience had no idea who that purple guy was — but they could clearly tell he was important, and knew if they asked the two or three people sitting next to them, somebody would know who he was.
“Clearly, there’s a purpose to us putting him in the end of that movie. We do have plans for him[...] I wouldn’t say we ever feel the need to rush anything one way or the other. We succeeded in Phase One because we stuck to our guns and stuck to the plan. That plan took place over many, many years and it ultimately paid off. I see Phase Two unfolding in the same way of us taking our time, us doing what’s right for each individual movie, while folding in elements that will not only build up to the culmination of Phase Two, but even Phase Three.”

To me, that reads as so. They have plans for Thanos, obviously phase 2. As he said, there is a purpose for having him there. Notice how he says "I wouldnt say we ever feel the need to rush anything one way or the other" almost as if they are saying they MAY stretch it out.

Now, the last sentence, " I see Phase Two unfolding in the same way of us taking our time, us doing what's right for each individual movie, while folding elements that will not only build up to the culmination of Phase Two, but to even Phase 3"

Now before I say what I am about to say, yes Sam, Thanos is NOT the most important villain of the MU. HOWEVER, most mainstream comic fans do know some of his stories, the IG, and also when he obtained the heart.

Now, this last sentence, I see it as this. They plan on taking there time, building up to the culmination of Phase 2. These events, or whatever, that will build up to phase to, will also probably be built up to the culmination of phase 3 as well.

Now okay, sure, they could be using Thanos to build up something else, another villain for said "marvel cinematic event" they have planned for 2017 2018. But to me, it is so freakin clear that whatever events shape the climax of phase 2, will also shape and lead to the climax of phase 3.

Now, as I said, mainstream comic fans DO know how in his stories, thanos is a threat to the universe. Now, with him being introduced, and with everything that is said, one can EASILY infer that he will be stretched, and that the infinity gauntlet movie will be most likely in phase 3.

Now, I know you are strongly opinionated Sam, I've said this before, you seem to shoot down, with a sort of arrogant "how could you possibly think something so stupid", people who disagree with you. I know, I am strongly opinionated as well, its in my genes, but can you honestly tell me that, given what I have just said here, that there is nothing pointing to him being in phase 3? even you have to admit, that it is easy to infer from what fiege has said, that the Mad Titan will be stretched into Phase 3. Without confirmation it is just speculation, but there is a lot of evidence. And if you tell me right now, that all this right here is just, I don't know, wrong, then then you are blinded by you strong opinions. But I don't think that is the case



And on that note. Are you sure thor doesn't know of Thanos? I am willing to bet that he atleast knows who he is, and what he does. Assuimg Odin and he have met before, Odin must have told his son about the mad titan. Secondly, remember that scene in avengers when Thor and Loki were talking? Loki brought up the power of the tesseract, then Thor said "Who showed you this power? Who controls the would be king!?" when he said, who shows you this power, there sounded like there was a lot of concern in his voice, speculating on who it may have been, or who he hopes it is not. You know?

[Chewy]

Guys can we not turn this into another "argue with sam a bunch" thread? Please.

And I mean that with absolutely no offense intended, sam, it's just that every discussion with you seems to eventually turn into a "how many issues was this character in!?" fact-check. Which is not the way to adapt a long-form story. You take the characters that work best, the villains that seem the most cinematic, and the basic storylines from iconic arcs. And then you throw out almost everything else, and write your movie. Translate the feel of the piece, not the specifics.

So yes, the movies are not the comics. And you can dismiss that as an excuse if you choose, but you would be wrong.

[/my last post on the subject]

[DrCosmic]

Originally Posted by terry78

He'd never refer to himself as a henchman though. None of them think of themselves as lackeys in these groups, but temporary partners until they can stab their cohorts in the back.

I think that in an MCU situation, a lot of these villains might have a bit more nuanced politics than Mastermind/Henchman. Loki and Thanos is a good example, Thanos didn't even deal directly with Loki it seemed, but Loki was still in a place to sort of back down the Other/Thanos' rep when he was pushed as though he were a lackey. Not backstabbing, but not henchmanship either. I think I'd like to see more of that.

Annihilus is kinda decent, but I'm actually still partial to a Masters of Evil sort of assembly of all their villains thus far. It'd be great if Ultron was available or if Kang didn't come with a whole time travel debacle, and really, those two probably work least well in tandem with or immediately following Thanos.

Zodiac is flexible enough that you can kinda turn it into anything, but I really think Avengers profited by not having to make a villain from scratch. I think taking that idea to the next level, and reusing all of the (surviving) villains in a Masters of Evil type scenario leaves a lot of room for both personal issues, as well as a cool comic book styled 8 on 8 lineup battle. All with Thanos empowering, using, manipulating, and otherwise assembling the villains under his banner of death, all as a distraction while he claims ultimate power. Or at least... that's how it is in my head.

[jaqua99]

Originally Posted by Chewy

Guys can we not turn this into another "argue with sam a bunch" thread? Please.

And I mean that with absolutely no offense intended, sam, it's just that every discussion with you seems to eventually turn into a "how many issues was this character in!?" fact-check. Which is not the way to adapt a long-form story. You take the characters that work best, the villains that seem the most cinematic, and the basic storylines from iconic arcs. And then you throw out almost everything else, and write your movie. Translate the feel of the piece, not the specifics.

So yes, the movies are not the comics. And you can dismiss that as an excuse if you choose, but you would be wrong.

[/my last post on the subject]

Good, remember the speculation that the other was annihilus?
I don't see him being a sort of, second in command.

Annihilus is probably my favorite name of a character in all of comics

[Chewy]

I definitely don't think the other is Annihilus. I'm not even sure Marvel has the rights to Annihilus.

I hope they do. He's not really a second in command, but if he believes that, say, Thanos will grant him access to the Annihilation Wave, he'd work for him for a bit.

[cherokeesam]

Originally Posted by Chewy

Guys can we not turn this into another "argue with sam a bunch" thread? Please.

And I mean that with absolutely no offense intended, sam, it's just that every discussion with you seems to eventually turn into a "how many issues was this character in!?" fact-check. Which is not the way to adapt a long-form story. You take the characters that work best, the villains that seem the most cinematic, and the basic storylines from iconic arcs. And then you throw out almost everything else, and write your movie. Translate the feel of the piece, not the specifics.

So yes, the movies are not the comics. And you can dismiss that as an excuse if you choose, but you would be wrong.

[/my last post on the subject]

Yeah, I know I get riled up about this, but that phrase just irks the hell out of me: "the movies are not the comics." Look, the whole reason Marvel Studios was created was to put creative control back in the hands of the guys who actually own these characters. What we had before 2008 was a whole boatload of "the movies are not the comics," and we saw a whole lot of directors doing whatever the hell they felt like with the characters. Sometimes it worked; oftentimes, it turned into a steaming turd. So forgive me if I still grit my teeth whenever I hear someone use the phrase "The movies are not the comics." Marvel Studios changed all that, and they've been working painstakingly to restore a comicverse that the fans know and love, and introducing that successfully to new audiences.

Originally Posted by Chewy

Anyway, back to the topic.

Do we know if Marvel has the rights to Annihilus? He'd make a great henchman in the Boba Fett/Witch-King mold. And also be perfect for a Guardians sequel

I hope to hell Marvel *does* have Annihilus. I'm not sure how much Fox can claim as the bailiwick of Fantastic Four peripherals, but hopefully Annihilus is not on their radar.

Originally Posted by jaqua99

Now before I say what I am about to say, yes Sam, Thanos is NOT the most important villain of the MU. HOWEVER, most mainstream comic fans do know some of his stories, the IG, and also when he obtained the heart.

Now, this last sentence, I see it as this. They plan on taking there time, building up to the culmination of Phase 2. These events, or whatever, that will build up to phase to, will also probably be built up to the culmination of phase 3 as well.

Now okay, sure, they could be using Thanos to build up something else, another villain for said "marvel cinematic event" they have planned for 2017 2018. But to me, it is so freakin clear that whatever events shape the climax of phase 2, will also shape and lead to the climax of phase 3.

Now, as I said, mainstream comic fans DO know how in his stories, thanos is a threat to the universe. Now, with him being introduced, and with everything that is said, one can EASILY infer that he will be stretched, and that the infinity gauntlet movie will be most likely in phase 3.

Now, I know you are strongly opinionated Sam, I've said this before, you seem to shoot down, with a sort of arrogant "how could you possibly think something so stupid", people who disagree with you. I know, I am strongly opinionated as well, its in my genes, but can you honestly tell me that, given what I have just said here, that there is nothing pointing to him being in phase 3? even you have to admit, that it is easy to infer from what fiege has said, that the Mad Titan will be stretched into Phase 3. Without confirmation it is just speculation, but there is a lot of evidence. And if you tell me right now, that all this right here is just, I don't know, wrong, then then you are blinded by you strong opinions. But I don't think that is the case

It's a simple matter of overkill. At this point, I firmly believe Jim Starlin when he says that Thanos will be in GOTG and TA2, and I firmly believe he'll have at least a presence (maybe through his henchman, The Other) in Thor TDW. Giving Thanos 2 and a half movies, and a behind-the-scenes "mastermind" presence in TA1 (score points for Dr Cosmic), then it seems fairly obvious that audiences will have all the Thanos they can stomach for Phase II. Trying to cram in more of the same villain for Phase III would then be a recipe for box office disaster.

I love Thanos, but c'mon....give audiences a break. By 2015, after TA2, Thanos fatigue will have set in big time.

And on that note. Are you sure thor doesn't know of Thanos? I am willing to bet that he atleast knows who he is, and what he does. Assuimg Odin and he have met before, Odin must have told his son about the mad titan. Secondly, remember that scene in avengers when Thor and Loki were talking? Loki brought up the power of the tesseract, then Thor said "Who showed you this power? Who controls the would be king!?" when he said, who shows you this power, there sounded like there was a lot of concern in his voice, speculating on who it may have been, or who he hopes it is not. You know?

You might be onto something there. I'm positive that Odin has encountered and possibly battled Thanos in the past, but it's still debatable whether Thor knows him, too. I'm gonna put on my writer hat and say Thor *doesn't,* though, just because it'll give audiences a chance to find out the Mad Titan's backstory at the same time Thor does.

[jaqua99]

I think he may just have heard stories, if I were to take a guess. I personally think it would be really cool

And chewy, I'd bet my life The Other is not Annihilus, but I do like that, it could almost be a sequel for Guardians. Hell, it could be the story for this guardians.

Of course, excluding those warlock/magus rumors.


And guys, I hate to be...that guy, but in the marvel comics section of the forums, I just made a thread called the best and worst names of marvel comics, I would LOVE to hear other people's inputs on some of the coolest, and lamest named characters. If you get the time, check it out, everybody who wants to

[DrCosmic]

Warlock starting the film as Magus seems like a good a reason as any he's not in the concept art.

Heh, what if the Other is Magus/Adam Warlock. That'd be something.

Also, when Thanos does come in force to Earth... is he going to field more Chitauri, or do you think he has other races on tap? Marvel has the rights to both the Kree and Skrulls, right?

[MovieMaster]

It's likely Thanos will control a lot of races. He seems to like making deals. If my theory that the Kree-Skrull war will be in GOTG is correct, then maybe Thanos could make a deal witht he Skrulls stating that if they help him get an Infinity Gem(s) he'll help them destroy the Kree?

[jaqua99]

okay guys, so what about this? Lets assume Thanos does get stretched to phase 3, and Avengers 3 is an infinity gauntlet movie. What role would Thanos have in avengers 2/what will he do?

[DrCosmic]

I guess I see him testing/evaluating the heroes in some way, preparing them to face him in some way that's not expected. Perhaps he helps empower the Avengers in some way so that they might be a suitable challenge for him. Perhaps Avengers 2 is a crucible entirely of Thanos' design. Though he should appear to the heroes at least once so that they will understand how thoroughly screwed they are. Or maybe not understand, either way.

[KangConquers]

Originally Posted by cherokeesam

Except for one important fact: the fact that you are greatly, greatly overestimating the importance of Thanos to the Marvel Universe.

Palpatine/Vader, Blofeld and Voldemort were set up to be the nemesis (nemeses?) of their respective heroes. So was Magneto. So was Dr. Doom. So was Loki. So was The Joker. So was Lex Luthor. All of these are *foils.* Nemesis. Archrivals. You expect to see them in their respective heroes' stories.

Thanos is not the archrival or nemesis of The Avengers. In fact, his only true nemesis is a fairly obscure (to general audiences) Marvel (anti-)hero named Adam Warlock. Who is not an Avenger. Oh, and an even more obscure Marvel hero: Eros, or Starfox. Who is an Avenger....but one almost nobody (evne in comic book shops) has ever heard of.

I can count on the fingers of one hand the number of issues that the Avengers have *ever* faced Thanos.

So no, Thanos is not the archenemy of the Avengers. So one would not expect to see him recurring again and again and again in an Avengers franchise.

One would expect to see Thanos in one phase, then see the team move on to other threats in another phase.

Like they've always done in the Avengers comics.

Seriously: it would help some of you guys to actually read the comics before you start speculating on how certain characters and story arcs should develop and be portrayed.

Thanos is arguably the top non-attached villain in the Marvel Universe. He's everyone and anyone's villain. By facing not only the Avengers, but the Fantastic 4, the X-Men, Spider-Man, The Silver Surfer, and just about everyone in the Marvel Universe, he's gained a notoriety and level of awareness that Avengers-centered villains like Ultron and Kang lack. He's basically only third to Doom and Magneto in terms of level of crossover, and is a bigger threat than either of them.

So no, I don't think anyone here is overestimating Thanos's level of importance in the Marvel Universe. He's easily the best choice Feige and co have the rights to, and this is coming from someone who's such an old school Avengers freak that his handle is "KangConquers."

[jaqua99]

Originally Posted by MovieMasterCBM

It's likely Thanos will control a lot of races. He seems to like making deals. If my theory that the Kree-Skrull war will be in GOTG is correct, then maybe Thanos could make a deal witht he Skrulls stating that if they help him get an Infinity Gem(s) he'll help them destroy the Kree?

Originally Posted by KangConquers

Thanos is arguably the top non-attached villain in the Marvel Universe. He's everyone and anyone's villain. By facing not only the Avengers, but the Fantastic 4, the X-Men, Spider-Man, The Silver Surfer, and just about everyone in the Marvel Universe, he's gained a notoriety and level of awareness that Avengers-centered villains like Ultron and Kang lack. He's basically only third to Doom and Magneto in terms of level of crossover, and is a bigger threat than either of them.

So no, I don't think anyone here is overestimating Thanos's level of importance in the Marvel Universe. He's easily the best choice Feige and co have the rights to, and this is coming from someone who's such an old school Avengers freak that his handle is "KangConquers."

Exactly why Joss chose him.

I mean, its obvious Joss will be around for a while. The next few years will center around this character, this character, who it was Joss' idea to introduce, then Joss doesn't come back? Even after avengers 2, joss will be around for a whileeeeeeeeeee

[cherokeesam]

Originally Posted by jaqua99

Exactly why Joss chose him.

I mean, its obvious Joss will be around for a while. The next few years will center around this character, this character, who it was Joss' idea to introduce, then Joss doesn't come back? Even after avengers 2, joss will be around for a whileeeeeeeeeee

I'm flattered that you guys think my main mad Titan Thanos should be the primary focus of the MCU for years to come, but I'll bet whatever you care to lose that simply won't be the case. If they wanted Thanos to be "the Emperor" or "Sauron" or "Voldemort," they would've set that up in 2008, not in 2012.

So far, the only solid leads point to Thanos having a major role in at least a coupla three Phase II movies. Beyond that, it's just crystal-ballin'.

[Adamantium]

I think they should just drop the ball and let Phase2 be no holds barred. I ABSOLUTELY would love to have a Phase 3 and then A3 obviously. However considering the attention span and A.D.D. that everyone suffers from these days, I gotta bad feeling that it might not make it that far. Why hold out because you want to blow minds in 2018 or 2019? Blow our minds now. There is more than enough source material to do more epic stuff later if Thanos appears in A2.

[Adamantium]

If they set it up right with Pym and do the Ultron story right, then you could hold off on Thanos a little longer.

[Whiskey Tango]

Meh get Thanos out of the way in Avengers 2 and make room for someone else. I'm not personally enamored with him enough to endure him for the next 7 or 8 years. I want to see Kang or Ultron or the Masters of Evil.

[jaqua99]

Originally Posted by cherokeesam

I'm flattered that you guys think my main mad Titan Thanos should be the primary focus of the MCU for years to come, but I'll bet whatever you care to lose that simply won't be the case. If they wanted Thanos to be "the Emperor" or "Sauron" or "Voldemort," they would've set that up in 2008, not in 2012.

So far, the only solid leads point to Thanos having a major role in at least a coupla three Phase II movies. Beyond that, it's just crystal-ballin'.

I stil think it is a good guess to say he may stick around till phase 3. When talking about him, Fiege said there are things that will be unfolding, like phase 1 leading up to the avengers. And similar things will unfold now that won't only lead to the conclusion of phase 2, but phase 3 as well.

That's what Fiege said. That could be read any way, but I read it as somethings will happen in phase 2 that will fall into phase 3 as well. That could be Thanos, it could be anyone. It could be Ultron. But since we know Thanos is the big villain of phase 2 atleast, based on what fiege said, it surely isn't absurd to take that as he will be around for a while. Which I am okay with. And I would expect you would be too.