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Old 02-02-2012, 03:15 PM   #101
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Default Re: You know it's true: The Watchmen 2 Thread

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It's perfectly reasonable to be wary about this. The big comic companies have done a lot of stupid things before. And of course they're cashing in on the Watchmen name here. Cashing in is not wrong in and of itself; they are a business after all. And it doesn't mean that these new prequel comics can't be good. The potential for badness is there though.

But I'm beyond *****ing about things like this. I don't believe these new comics will match the quality of the original, but should they have to? What if they just tell nice, self-contained stories using familiar characters? If they don't suck or contradict the original, then what's the harm? Frankly, I think a lot of fans go too far with their admiration for certain works, elevating them into untouchable holy texts.

While those statements from the new DC writers were of course defending themselves, they do have a point about how Moore himself wrote derivative stories based on other people's characters. Also, Watchmen expanded universe materials (in the form of RPG sourcebooks and adventures) was already published way back in the 1980s.

I no longer hold fiction to be sacrosanct. If a new, decent story comes out in the same universe, I can buy it or just choose to ignore it. And if it sucks, then the critics will be justified in bashing it.
Aye, this is basically how i feel about it, as long as the original work is preserved and is not getting 'updated'(like the StarWars SEdition's, or even those Neal Adams Batman tpb's, where he re-drew some panels), then why not do some prequel comics?
They have the sense not to do a sequel because it would spoil the ambiguous ending of the book, which needs to be preserved, if they did a sequel without Moore, or without his permission, no matter how good it was, *that* would in a sense be messing with the original work, because it was designed to leave you with that specific feeling.

and in answer to the part I bolded, they also did that computer game about Rorschach and Nite-Owl's partnership taking down big figure, and got a cb writer in to write the story scenes. Can't recall who it was, might have been Gerry Conway or Lein Wein.

I wouldn't have minded a mini-series detailing that, I wonder if they avoided that because it was already used for the game.
That would be a funny one to do though, in a comic, because Moore specifically referenced that tale, Rorschach flying through the sewer on the hoverbike with rats running from him, seeing Rorschach's interactions with big figure, and it was almost as if Moore wanted folk to fill in the blanks on that themselves.
It's one thing for a computer game i guess, because it is just fragments of that tale, whereas with a book, you'd be filling in all the blanks specifically that Moore may have wanted the reader to do for themselves.

The cover of the Minutemen one suggests we'll see Nite-Owl1 getting his 'in gratitude' statue, so there is one thing we'll see that was specifically ref by Moore, and from the cover of Ozymandias', it looks like we'll be spending some time on the road with him as he goes on his carlos castendena type voyage of self discovery.

edit: but, y'know, if you want to fill in the blanks yourself, don't buy the prequel comics.


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Old 02-02-2012, 05:02 PM   #102
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V ofr Vendetta is not the same thing, with Watchmen they have an extablished new superhero universe, but yeah, i think that this may test the waters for a potential Watchmen 2
V For Vendetta aint as immune as you think. That book basically climaxes in what a money-grasping oppurtunist could perceive as a 'new beginning' for the character. London is burning and Evey is V.
I can already hear whatever chump they'd get to do it, justify his role with drivel like "Comic fans are always gonna resist change but we thought it was time to reinterpret this character for the modern audience. We've already seen the old V, Evey does things a little different."


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Old 02-02-2012, 05:27 PM   #103
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Default Re: You know it's true: The Watchmen 2 Thread

From CBR September 10th, 2008:
Revisiting Alan Moore's Official "Watchmen" Prequel

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Old 02-02-2012, 06:57 PM   #104
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Default Re: You know it's true: The Watchmen 2 Thread

Devin Faraci on Badass Digest wrote up an interesting article about this debacle.

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On the surface Motown and the comic book industry don’t have a lot in common... that is until you realize both were built on the exploitation of young, naive creative types. In his book Supergods Grant Morrison notes why it was so easy for Jerry Siegel and Joe Shuster to sell the rights to Superman for peanuts: they thought they would have more characters in them, and they never imagined that the character could become the cultural icon he is today. They wanted their creation out there, and because they were young, idealistic creators they suffered.
For decades that’s how the comic book industry worked, taking the creative sweat of smart and innovative writers and artists and turning it into corporate cash - cash that was not shared. Today we have a landscape where creator owned properties are common, but that simply did not exist for the first 40 or 50 years of mainstream comics.
Which is why Alan Moore and Dave Gibbons’ deal for Watchmen was such a big to-do at the time. There was a reversion clause in the contract, which stated that should DC leave the characters fallow for one year the rights to the work would return to the creators. That same language was in Moore’s V For Vendetta contract, and in both cases he assumed the books would eventually go out of print and he would get the rights back.
Except they never did. Again, in the modern world keeping a comic book in print is standard practice, but in the 80s it was simply unheard of. Alan Moore never expected Watchmen or V For Vendetta to remain constantly in print for the next twenty or thirty years because no such thing had ever before happened in the history of the medium.
“[T]hey were stolen from me — knowingly stolen from me,” Moore told the New York Times in 2006, on the eve of the release of the V For Vendetta movie. He says this is why he quit working for DC Comics in any capacity. "I said, 'Fair enough,' " he recalls. " 'You have managed to successfully swindle me, and so I will never work for you again.'”
To me Before Watchmen, the upcoming series of prequels to Moore and Gibbons' seminal masterwork, isn't just an artistically bankrupt project, it’s morally bankrupt. DC exhuming these characters is just the final **** you in a decades-long attempt to screw over Moore - who, to be fair, has assisted by renouncing whatever money is due to him from things like this. But the issue isn’t simply money, it’s also the artist’s right to NOT make money, to not have their creation further exploited. In 2010 DC offered Moore a deal with the devil - they would give him the rights back, but he would have to agree to (and presumably endorse) prequels and sequels. You can have your baby, they said, as long as you agree to have it work in this brothel.
It isn't like Moore was consistently close-minded about mining Watchmen. In the late 80s he approved and contributed to a role playing game set in the Watchmen world, supplying background information that helped flesh out the characters and history of the universe. I feel like Moore played ball, and that he's well within his rights to ask that the ball no longer be played with.
This is a continuation of the kind of exploitation upon which the modern superhero comic book market was built. I hope that the creators working today for DC and Marvel have secured their s**t in an ironclad way. And I can tell you that stories like this are why the mainstream superhero universes have such a paucity of interesting new characters - why would you give Marvel or DC your best original work when they’re simply going to exploit it forever and leave you out?

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Old 02-02-2012, 07:48 PM   #105
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Default Re: You know it's true: The Watchmen 2 Thread

But the key thing here is...DC OWNS this property. Its theirs. Technically, they could've done a bunch of sequels and prequels long long ago if they wanted to, and I'm sure they absolutely wanted to due to the success of the property. But because of Moore and Gibbons and their reluctance, they left it alone. They kept offering them sweet deals to potentially do something new but they did not want to.Its been more than 25 years! I say DC has every right to return to this property, which they OWN.

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Old 02-02-2012, 10:43 PM   #106
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Default Re: You know it's true: The Watchmen 2 Thread

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Devin Faraci on Badass Digest wrote up an interesting article about this debacle.
I'm sorry but I just have absolutely no sympathy for the Alan Moore of today. He's nothing but an angry, bitter, and outright rude man who thinks that he's better than everyone. DC didn't swindle him, he agreed to the deal.

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Old 02-02-2012, 11:43 PM   #107
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Default Re: You know it's true: The Watchmen 2 Thread

I'll have to hand in my indignant geek card I guess, because I'll be buying every single one of these.

Maybe I can get my card back by not seeing Phantom Menace in 3D.

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Old 02-02-2012, 11:55 PM   #108
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Default Re: You know it's true: The Watchmen 2 Thread

Except you will see the Phantom Menace in 3D. George just loves treating the fans like the chumps that they are.

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Old 02-03-2012, 12:13 AM   #109
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Default Re: You know it's true: The Watchmen 2 Thread

I don't think this whole bid'ness is such a good idea, especially without Moore's involvement (though that was to be expected). But I still think it can be executed well and hope it is, even if my expectations are not very high.

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Old 02-03-2012, 12:22 AM   #110
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Default Re: You know it's true: The Watchmen 2 Thread

The thought of Darwyn Cooke on a Minutemen book..... I am aroused.

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Old 02-03-2012, 09:59 AM   #111
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Default Re: You know it's true: The Watchmen 2 Thread

I can understand why they do it and publish more Watchmen ; They havebeen clear on that, it is clearly to make money out of it, and I understand that. It is a part of their job, ok.
Prequel is better than sequel, I think it is a good idea (Golden age stories of the Minutemen with an old style art like Darwyn Cooke is fun), but if the ultimate goal is to make a sequel, then it is a bad idea.
All this does not mean I'm going to buy this. The story is good as it is. I'll surely have a look but will certainly skip it.

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Old 02-03-2012, 10:11 AM   #112
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Default Re: You know it's true: The Watchmen 2 Thread

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I'm sorry but I just have absolutely no sympathy for the Alan Moore of today. He's nothing but an angry, bitter, and outright rude man who thinks that he's better than everyone. DC didn't swindle him, he agreed to the deal.
Untrue statement be untrue

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Old 02-03-2012, 10:58 AM   #113
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Untrue statement be untrue
Moore makes Kurosawa look like a beacon of positivity.

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Old 02-03-2012, 11:05 AM   #114
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Default Re: You know it's true: The Watchmen 2 Thread

I say we make sequels, prequels, remakes, movies, TV shows, songs, and radio plays based on everything he's ever written. I love his pissy rants.

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Old 02-03-2012, 11:33 AM   #115
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Default Re: You know it's true: The Watchmen 2 Thread

i understand how easy it is to hate on moore due to his attitude. and though he doesnt always verbalize his points in the most sympathetic language, he does tend to have some legit points. alan moore might be crotchety, but that doesnt justify DC making a clear cash grab off his creation.

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Old 02-03-2012, 12:01 PM   #116
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If they were being greedy then they would have done a Watchmen sequel in the 90s without Moore's help when those dark and violent comics inspired by watchmen were coming out.

DC cares for Watchmen, that's why they are doing this with their top talents, still i would have liked for the Minutemen to be 12 issues like the original Watchmen comic, and how it was originally going to be, in fact it would have been a better title than "Before Watchmen", this feels more like companion books for Watchmen while "Minutemen" would feel like a prequel and a story of its oun.

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Old 02-03-2012, 01:48 PM   #117
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Default Re: You know it's true: The Watchmen 2 Thread

different people were running DC in the 90's. And considering the recent decisions made by DC's current top brass over the past 6 months, i'd assume the dudes in the 90's had more respect for the characters which is why it didn't happen then.

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Old 02-03-2012, 02:37 PM   #118
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I don't think they had more respect for the characters, they probably had more respect for Alan Moore. Now all he does is bash DC, and everything they stand for basically. Why the hell should they care about someone who is always disrespecting them? They've probably wanted to do this for many years, and now they have a good team to do it justice, so they're gonna go for it, and screw whatever Alan Moore has to say about it. They've tried many times to give him deals, and all he does is push them away, while talking trash.

I like Alan Moore's work, I do think he's an extremely talented story tellers, but he's also a very defensive and cranky old man. What does he expect, for DC to just suddenly stop printing one of the most renowned Graphic Novel to ever be created?

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Old 02-03-2012, 03:22 PM   #119
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honestly, Alan Moore's stance on any of this is of zero concern to me.

I, personally, believe while the creative teams are impressive and show good effort, this is whole idea is completely unnecessary and would be best left untouched. Watchmen said everything that needed to be said with these characters and stories. To return to it now just feels like a cheap cash grab.

And while i understand DC is a business and money is a necessary part about what they do. The money needs to be balanced with their moral obligation to the creative arts that they are purveyors of. Ever since this relaunch, i feel there is no balance between the two.

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Old 02-03-2012, 03:45 PM   #120
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I've thought about this whole business and, well, I don't really care either way.

Maybe it'll be good Maybe it will add more depth to the stories of these Charlton knock offs. Make Watchmen all the better.

Maybe it will be horrible. Ruin the characters with lots of unnecessary and utterly trite retcons to what was already established. (Nobody thought about that. Suddenly the Comedian is Nite Owl II's father as well. Cuz incest is kewl and controversial. )

I don't know. I don't really give a s**t honestly.

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Old 02-03-2012, 08:37 PM   #121
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I'm sorry but I just have absolutely no sympathy for the Alan Moore of today. He's nothing but an angry, bitter, and outright rude man who thinks that he's better than everyone. DC didn't swindle him, he agreed to the deal.
I don't sympathize with him per se--it was a business deal and he chooses to not take what he is due from things like movie adaptations--but this is a really bad idea. It is just a vapid, artistically empty idea. The book is lightning in a bottle.

But hey, they made decades-later sequels to Gone with the Wind and they still do for The Godfather long after Mitchell and Puzo passed away. And occasionally you get Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead. This looks more like Caddyshack II to me, but I'm sure there is a market for that too. Such is life.

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Old 02-03-2012, 09:32 PM   #122
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I don't sympathize with him per se--it was a business deal and he chooses to not take what he is due from things like movie adaptations--but this is a really bad idea. It is just a vapid, artistically empty idea. The book is lightning in a bottle.
I'm going to wait and see how this is going to turn out whether or not it's a good or bad idea. This is one of those projects that is going to turn out really awful and we'll all agree that it's a horrible idea or it's going to turn out to be great.

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But hey, they made decades-later sequels to Gone with the Wind and they still do for The Godfather long after Mitchell and Puzo passed away. And occasionally you get Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead. This looks more like Caddyshack II to me, but I'm sure there is a market for that too. Such is life.
With the creative teams involved, I think that this has a good chance of being critically successful.

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Old 02-05-2012, 08:55 AM   #123
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I'm sorry but I just have absolutely no sympathy for the Alan Moore of today. He's nothing but an angry, bitter, and outright rude man who thinks that he's better than everyone. DC didn't swindle him, he agreed to the deal.
My god... you certainly like to kiss DC arse...

It's like in your eyes (and your eyes only), the company can simply do no wrong.

As a reader in the comics forums, reading your constant DC praises is both annoying AND sickening...

I really should just put you on "ignore" and possibly save any and all ulcers reading your rah-rah-rah cheerleading DC posts will give me.

Thanks for listening.


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Old 02-05-2012, 10:38 AM   #124
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My god... you certainly like to kiss DC arse...

It's like in your eyes (and your eyes only), the company can simply do no wrong.

As a reader in the comics forums, reading your constant DC praises is both annoying AND sickening...

I really should just put you on "ignore" and possibly save any and all ulcers reading your rah-rah-rah cheerleading DC posts will give me.

Thanks for listening.

Hey, *******. You sound like an ******* right now.

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Old 02-05-2012, 11:01 AM   #125
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Default Re: You know it's true: The Watchmen 2 Thread

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My god... you certainly like to kiss DC arse...

It's like in your eyes (and your eyes only), the company can simply do no wrong.

As a reader in the comics forums, reading your constant DC praises is both annoying AND sickening...

I really should just put you on "ignore" and possibly save any and all ulcers reading your rah-rah-rah cheerleading DC posts will give me.

Thanks for listening.

It's not ass kissing when Moore is consistently rude to both DC and Marvel (moreso to Marvel on account that his gripes against Marvel are rather assinine as opposed to his somewhat legitimate beef with DC). But my biggest problem isn't how Moore disrespects faceless companies but more along the lines of how he's disrespectful of the creators of the Big Two, acts like he's the greatest thing since Jesus, and forgets that he does everything that he complains about the Big Two doing.

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