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Old 03-26-2012, 12:23 AM   #301
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Default Re: Jeremy Renner is Hawkeye! - Part 1

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great point.... not sinking to their level can get you killed

And yet sinking to their level makes it impossible to tell the good guys from the bad guys. It just becomes a bunch of murderers killing each other and the people around them.

There is a huge difference between justice and vengeance; between mob rule and the rule of law; between self-defense and "first strike" (hint: first strike automatically makes you an attacker/invader instead of a defender/protector).

That's why superheroes have always had a stricter moral code than even cops and soldiers. Partly because they're role models for kids....and partly because it doesn't make good business sense to kill off popular villains in an ongoing, long-lasting franchise.

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Old 03-26-2012, 01:46 PM   #302
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Old 03-26-2012, 01:47 PM   #303
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Default Re: Jeremy Renner is Hawkeye! - Part 1

SuperSAINT beat me to it

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Old 03-26-2012, 02:16 PM   #304
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Default Re: Jeremy Renner is Hawkeye! - Part 1

Looks bad@$$!

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Old 03-26-2012, 02:21 PM   #305
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Default Re: Jeremy Renner is Hawkeye! - Part 1

I've said it before, I'll say it again... I love his arms *lol* between his arms & Hemsworth's (combined with Loki's general bad assery), I don't know what state I'll be in when this movie is over - I may overdose on fangirlism *lol*

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Old 03-26-2012, 02:25 PM   #306
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Default Re: Jeremy Renner is Hawkeye! - Part 1

His form is all wrong. His character is going to be completely unbelievable now.

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Old 03-26-2012, 03:33 PM   #307
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Default Re: Jeremy Renner is Hawkeye! - Part 1

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Saving the world, one arrow at a time.

Sweet pic.

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Old 03-26-2012, 03:35 PM   #308
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Default Re: Jeremy Renner is Hawkeye! - Part 1

I wonder if renner actually fired any arrows while making the film? Or is that just CGI?

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Old 03-26-2012, 03:48 PM   #309
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Default Re: Jeremy Renner is Hawkeye! - Part 1

I think he would have shot some actual arrows.

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Old 03-26-2012, 05:32 PM   #310
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Default Re: Jeremy Renner is Hawkeye! - Part 1

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And yet sinking to their level makes it impossible to tell the good guys from the bad guys. It just becomes a bunch of murderers killing each other and the people around them.

There is a huge difference between justice and vengeance; between mob rule and the rule of law; between self-defense and "first strike" (hint: first strike automatically makes you an attacker/invader instead of a defender/protector).

That's why superheroes have always had a stricter moral code than even cops and soldiers. Partly because they're role models for kids....and partly because it doesn't make good business sense to kill off popular villains in an ongoing, long-lasting franchise.

Not true. When the heroes are up against criminals who kill indiscriminately and are endangering civilians, the use of deadly force is completely justified to prevent further carnage. In fact, it could be argued that if heroes allow serial killers/mass murderers to live instead of taking them down when the opportunity presents itself, they themselves are endangering the public. The whole "I'm not going to stoop to their level" line becomes self-indulgent nonsense when the person they were too good to kill goes on to murder many others because they survived to kill another day.


Killing criminals who are in the process of committing crimes is not murder, it is justifiable homicide. (Supervillains, with their powers and weapons, are automatically armed and dangerous.) Killing enemy soldiers who are invading one's country (or planet) is perfectly legal as well. It simply isn't realistic for heroes to scale their efforts back and only use nonlethal force when their lives and the lives of countless others are at stake.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justifiable_homicide

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Old 03-26-2012, 11:30 PM   #311
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Default Re: Jeremy Renner is Hawkeye! - Part 1

I have zero patience for the "you are wrong bad for not murdering a guy to prevent some vague future crimes" moral fallacy, but otherwise, yeah. There is nothing wrong with having superheroes take something more like a police/soldier attitude regarding the rules of engagement. "Not using deadly force" should not be the highest benchmark of heroism, because that means you place something higher than "protecting the innocent."

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Old 03-26-2012, 11:55 PM   #312
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Default Re: Jeremy Renner is Hawkeye! - Part 1

Seriously though, if the joker escapes again and again and again and kills people each time, Batman should kill him.

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Old 03-27-2012, 12:01 AM   #313
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Default Re: Jeremy Renner is Hawkeye! - Part 1

Love the new pic.

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Old 03-27-2012, 12:35 AM   #314
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Default Re: Jeremy Renner is Hawkeye! - Part 1

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Not true. When the heroes are up against criminals who kill indiscriminately and are endangering civilians, the use of deadly force is completely justified to prevent further carnage. In fact, it could be argued that if heroes allow serial killers/mass murderers to live instead of taking them down when the opportunity presents itself, they themselves are endangering the public. The whole "I'm not going to stoop to their level" line becomes self-indulgent nonsense when the person they were too good to kill goes on to murder many others because they survived to kill another day.


Killing criminals who are in the process of committing crimes is not murder, it is justifiable homicide. (Supervillains, with their powers and weapons, are automatically armed and dangerous.) Killing enemy soldiers who are invading one's country (or planet) is perfectly legal as well. It simply isn't realistic for heroes to scale their efforts back and only use nonlethal force when their lives and the lives of countless others are at stake.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justifiable_homicide
I didn't say the simple act of killing a villain is "stooping to their level"; "stooping to their level" is when the (supposed) hero begins killing indiscriminately, such as just suspecting someone is up to no good when he's not been presented with probable cause (see the current uproar over the overzealous Community Watch vigilante in Florida who killed an innocent kid because he thought he looked suspicious).

And therein lies the whole problem that Civil War tried to address: namely, what gives superheroes the right to be judge, jury *and* executioner? Just because you put on tights and can shoot lightning bolts out your ass doesn't automatically give you the clear vision to distinguish good from evil. Superheroes are still humans (most of 'em, anyway), and are still prone to fallibility and to not getting their facts straight. Personally, IRL, I would not feel even *remotely* safe knowing that Peter Parker, Bruce Wayne, Tony Stark, Frank Castle and Ol' Jadejaws had a license to kill anybody they didn't like or trust.

Cops and soldiers have to be trained to assess the morality and ethics of a situation and resorting to deadly force as a last resort; what kind of training do superheroes get?

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Old 03-27-2012, 06:21 PM   #315
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Default Re: Jeremy Renner is Hawkeye! - Part 1

That's a fair point, but bear in mind that the MCU has SHIELD as a factor. The quick and dirty answer is "Because SHIELD monitors and approves or disapproves of their activity as necessary." Essentially, SHIELD serves as the lawful sanctioning agency for the super heroes, or at least the police enforcing decent behavior on their part.

And just looking at the Avengers roster:
-Two are actual SHIELD agents, with presumptive SHIELD code of ethics and rules of engagement training
-One is a soldier trained by SHIELD's predecessor, who is kind of famous for his upstanding nature
-One is an alien god with no earth based organizational backing. Thor would thus, logically, be a concern. However, note that his actual *behavior*, from reports SHIELD can access, points to him being reasonably ethical and restrained
-One of them is an armored genius who does, in fact, take foreign policy into his own hands, including shooting terrorists. This makes him, best case scenario, and unpredictable player who would need to be monitored. . . which is exactly what SHIELD does with regard to him.
-And lastly, one is a guy who turns into a giant green rage monster. SHIELD tries to contain him and monitor him. . . but also seems to acknowledge that Banner is a reasonably ethical person who does his very best to *not* turn

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Old 03-27-2012, 10:21 PM   #316
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Default Re: Jeremy Renner is Hawkeye! - Part 1

That new picture is soooo awesome. I can't wait to see Clint kick some ass! Just about a month away.

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Old 03-27-2012, 10:33 PM   #317
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Default Re: Jeremy Renner is Hawkeye! - Part 1

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(see the current uproar over the overzealous Community Watch vigilante in Florida who killed an innocent kid because he thought he looked suspicious).
How do you know the kid was innocent?

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Old 03-27-2012, 10:47 PM   #318
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Default Re: Jeremy Renner is Hawkeye! - Part 1

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How do you know the kid was innocent?
I don't mean to butt in....but do you really want to have this conversation on a comic book speculation forum? Seriously?

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Old 03-27-2012, 10:55 PM   #319
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Default Re: Jeremy Renner is Hawkeye! - Part 1

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I don't mean to butt in....but do you really want to have this conversation on a comic book speculation forum? Seriously?
Well there is a whole thread for it in the community forum.

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Old 03-28-2012, 01:06 PM   #320
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Default Re: Jeremy Renner is Hawkeye! - Part 1

I want to hear Hawkeye call Hulk 'Jade Jaws' lol in the middle of battle. Don't ask me why, cause I don't rightly know, I just want to hear that line.

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Old 03-28-2012, 01:37 PM   #321
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Default Re: Jeremy Renner is Hawkeye! - Part 1

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I'd let his arrow in my target.

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Old 03-28-2012, 02:24 PM   #322
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Default Re: Jeremy Renner is Hawkeye! - Part 1

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I want to hear Hawkeye call Hulk 'Jade Jaws' lol in the middle of battle. Don't ask me why, cause I don't rightly know, I just want to hear that line.

Agreed.
I hope they write him like the "real" Clint Barton; one of the true kings of the one-liners.

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Old 03-28-2012, 05:31 PM   #323
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Default Re: Jeremy Renner is Hawkeye! - Part 1

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Agreed.
I hope they write him like the "real" Clint Barton; one of the true kings of the one-liners.
If the prequel comics and even his part in Thor are any indication, MCU Hawkeye may have a little of his one-liner personality from the comics.

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Old 03-28-2012, 09:40 PM   #324
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Default Re: Jeremy Renner is Hawkeye! - Part 1

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Agreed.
I hope they write him like the "real" Clint Barton; one of the true kings of the one-liners.
Same here. That's one of the main reasons I love ol' Clint.

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Old 03-28-2012, 11:11 PM   #325
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Default Re: Jeremy Renner is Hawkeye! - Part 1

He better crack wise. Or else that's just a complete change of character

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