Star Wars - Part 9

[Bim]

Originally Posted by danoyse

I loved Ewan McGregor as Obi-Wan (again, one of my favorite parts of the prequels)...but you knew nothing more about his character in the prequels. I would loved to have seen him secretly in love with Padme, or with the storyline of the ROTJ novelization where it turned out that Owen had been his brother. Just to give him some kind of background, and more life to his character. Something for him to truly mourn when he was alone on Tatooine.

NooOoOOOooOoo!!!

I would have liked to have seen more of the Anakin/Obi-Wan relationship as well, but i personally think Qui-Gon, as great a character as he was, got in the middle of that. I still think it would have been more powerful had Obi-Wan been the one who found him and fought the Council in order to train him. Qui-Gon could have been the one encouraging Obi-Wan to go with his feeling and fight to train the boy while the Council went no, no. Maybe Jinn should have been on the Council; he could still be Kenobi's Master and he could still die in the hands of Maul. I've always said i would be okay with TPM starting the same way it did, but instead of the master/padawan dynamic could have had a newly knighted/former master relationship.

I dont know if i would have had Anakin be as young as he was, although i can understand why it was done that way. That would have made it a real difficulty for Obi-Wan to try and convince the Council to let him train him. I wouold have liked to have seen Hayden as Anakin right from the start. He should have been a complex teenager (although all teens are complex LOL).

Originally Posted by sandmjuggalos

I feel like an idiot, but why is Obi Wan in bounty hunter garb? I've missed so many episodes due to work. Is there a simple explanation or should I just research it?

He was undercover. Very fun arc, try and catch it when you can.

There's some cool ideas about the PT here (and some i dont like at all ), i cant get into mine right now though, i'm at work lol.

Woo Hunter, congrats! Those two lightsabers are great, especially the Obi-Wan, of course lol

[Mandalore464]

Originally Posted by OptimusPrime114

One question:

Did Star Wars: The Clone Wars change anybody's original perspective towards the prequels?

Not for me.

I like the prequels as depictions of a fantastic universe with colourful characters, great action and fun, and inspiring fiction/themes. I just think the PT and OT are two different breeds and don't go well with one another, other than the not so subtle parallels Lucas kept trying to shove down our throats.

My major gripe with the prequels is from a technical standpoint. I think they're bad movies (photography-wise, acting-wise, directing-wise... One redeemable aspect is their art direction, which was phenomenal). TCW is yet another beast and won't change my opinion.

But have you read that Darth Plagueis' novel that came out recently? I finished it a week ago and it really gave more depth to TPM, in terms of what goes on behind the scenes etc... It's a good read.

[roach]

I am willing to bet that if people would be as critical with the OT as they are with the PT they would find the same problems

[Llama_Shepherd]

The point isn't whether the prequels are bad. Yes they had problems, I think that Jedi is the weakest of the OT. But the PT is supposed to at least to provide the groundwork of the OT, and it just doesn't. Menace, as a film is largely filler and just rammed with unnecessary appearances of characters from the OT. We finally get to see the relationship between Ben Kenobi and Darth Vader (Surprise! Barely showed in the films, but trust us it's there) and how the greatest jedi fell to become the greatest evil in the galaxy (Nightmares!). The prequels are supposed to service the story of the Originals, but in my opinion, they do not fully do that. Instead we have to rely on the Clone Wars to tell the story the prequels didn't.

Time for my prequel films:

The Phantom Menace-

Like I said, majorly the same, few cosmetic changes, some scenes merged with Clones. Qui-Gon would be around 45, Obi-Wan around 25 and Anakin around 16.

Senator Palpatine has three jedi dispatched to negotiate with the Trade Federation. The Trade are told by their master, Lord Sidious, to kill the two older jedi and bring the youngest to him.

Anyway, the three Jedi are attacked and flee to Naboo, where the ground forces are dispatched. Forget the gungans, they're not needed. They go straight to the Queen, who Anakin initially despises due to her high status, given he was raised as a slave before Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan found him. But he befriends her handmaiden, Padmé. The jedi are told they must evacuate the Queen to Coruscant and as the are leaving they are attacked by the Trade gunships and crash land on the planet Tatooine. Anakin's home. While Qui-Gon goes to find parts to repair the ship, Anakin goes to find his mother with Obi-Wan and Padmé. He finds her still a slave and he lashes out with the force at her slave owners, before being stopped by Obi-Wan. Qui-Gon speaks to him about this as he says he lost his master to the dark side and he will not see another jedi fall to it. He is then later consoled by Padmé. Darth Sidious, Darth Tyrannus dispatch their Sith Assassin to kill Jinn and Kenobi. and he fails. When the jedi get back to the Council, Jinn informs them of the resurgence of the Sith, and the situation with Naboo. Queen Amidala (decoy) votes no confidence in the current chancellor after being corrupted and swayed by Palpatine (a "Sith" mind trick). He is then elected Chancellor and orders Naboo must amass its army to declare war. The three jedi are taken back to Naboo and are told they must protect the Queen. Maul appears and kills the Queen and Padmé reveals herself as the real queen, much to Anakin's shock. Anyway, Anakin is told to leave as he is not ready to face a Sith, he initially doesn't but he relents at the words of Obi-Wan, he jumps into a fighter and leaves to fight in space, where he destroys the head of the blockade nearly singlehandedly. He returns to find Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan still fighting Maul. Maul, who is under orders not to kill Skywalker keeps him trapped under the force, and the fight continues. Jinn and Kenobi are seperated. Qui-Gon is too old to hold his own and is killed by Maul. Obi Wan then attacks him in a fit of rage succumbing to the dark side temporarily. He is quickly defeated in combat. However he regains his calm and uses Maul's hubris to defeat him. Qui-Gon's dying words are to teach Anakin everything that he taught to Obi-Wan as their is the potential to great darkness in him. Kenobi and Skywalker console each other.

Palpatine congratulates Kenobi and Skywalker and is seen attempting to manipulate him with a mind trick. Which fails. He then discusses that it will take longer than he realised to corrupt him as his mind is incredibly strong and he is incredibly attuned to the force. He would later be seen doing this in all the films to Anakin.

Attack of the Clones-

Again similar to the original film except it would take place over several months and it would have Asajj Ventress who used to try and kill Amidala.Plus Anakin is using Qui-Gon's lightsaber. Ventress is killed by Anakin who was succumbing to the dark side in the fight, because Obi-Wan isn't there to help him, along with the fact he has fallen for Amidala and his feeling if greed over her corrupts him a little. This is when we hear Qui-Gon screaming . Kenobi still looks into the amassed army in the name of the Jedi, all of whom based on Jango Fett and Obi-Wan is still abducted by Dooku and sent to death with Amidala and Skywalker. Dooku, like Maul is then not to kill Skywalker. So when cnfronted, he doesn't kill Obi-Wan out of loyalty to Qui-Gon and although he is told not to kill Skywalker he cuts off his arm to show he isn't all powerful. At which point he is confronted by Yoda and they fight. Anakin and Amidala marry.

Clone Wars-

Focuses very much on the relationship of Obi-Wan and Anakin, like the second season of the original Clone Wars series. In fact, nothing really noteworthy would be changed. However the battles that are shown would show that the Clone Wars is huge in scope, compared to the Civil War.

Revenge of the Sith-

In terms of story, nearly identical to the actual film. However Anakin kills Dooku because he is told that he was the one who orchestrated Jinn's death and took on the order of Ventress to kill Amidala. Again manipulating him a little more.

Anakin gives Padmé 3PO as a present to help with the babies.

The slaughtering of jedi in the Temple would be Anakin near enough under the control of Palpatine. Anakin then sees what he has done and has just given up and surrenders to the dark side.

Queen Amidala would publicly stand against the new Emperor and the army tries to kill her, but she is rescued by the royalty of Alderaan, Bail Organa.

[Mandalore464]

Originally Posted by roach

I am willing to bet that if people would be as critical with the OT as they are with the PT they would find the same problems

Don't know if this is aimed at my post, but in case it is, neither ANH, nor ESB, hell not even ROTJ suffers from any of the problems I have mentioned. They all had decent performances (if you compare them with the PT anyway), the dialogues were smarter, sometimes unnecessarily heavy but rarely sounded fake (I'll take the nefarious "You're beautiful because I love you so bla bla bla" as an example).

But more than that, ANH, ESB, and ROTJ all had actual camera work. Look at any of the prequels, it's striking how the framing is consistantly dull, and the camera moves non-existent. The only shots that have camera work are the CGI shots where virtual cameras were moved around the place by computers. That's my biggest gripe with the PT. It's like Lucas never stopped to wonder where the cameras could be positioned for maximum effect, as he relied on the big CGI action scenes to do the job. The result is that every single character moment in any of those three films seems dull and inefficient, because Lucas never allows us to get into the scene and relate to what the characters are going through. All we have to go by are the dialogues, and they are often as dull as the framing.

Finally of course, actors' direction... I'm not one of those that want Christensen's head because he's fine to me. But clearly Lucas has problems putting his vision into words to his actors, and of course, having to interact with things that are not really there is extremely difficult for them.

Now despite what my post looks like, I'm not a prequel hater, nor am I a Lucas hater. I could also go on for hours about what I love about the prequels. But technically, they are below average films.

[roach]

it wasn't directed towards you...just every few pages or so this thread turns into "What I hate about the Prequels"

[OptimusPrime114]

Yes, please, there's other Star Wars-relates stuff to talk about besides what we wish the prequels could've been.

For example, I just found out that the Gears of War team has the same name as the Republic Commandos: DELTA SQUAD!!!!!!!!

[Marx]

Originally Posted by Llama_Shepherd

The point isn't whether the prequels are bad. Yes they had problems, I think that Jedi is the weakest of the OT. But the PT is supposed to at least to provide the groundwork of the OT, and it just doesn't. Menace, as a film is largely filler and just rammed with unnecessary appearances of characters from the OT. We finally get to see the relationship between Ben Kenobi and Darth Vader (Surprise! Barely showed in the films, but trust us it's there) and how the greatest jedi fell to become the greatest evil in the galaxy (Nightmares!). The prequels are supposed to service the story of the Originals, but in my opinion, they do not fully do that. Instead we have to rely on the Clone Wars to tell the story the prequels didn't.

Time for my prequel films:

The Phantom Menace-

Like I said, majorly the same, few cosmetic changes, some scenes merged with Clones. Qui-Gon would be around 45, Obi-Wan around 25 and Anakin around 16.

Senator Palpatine has three jedi dispatched to negotiate with the Trade Federation. The Trade are told by their master, Lord Sidious, to kill the two older jedi and bring the youngest to him.

Anyway, the three Jedi are attacked and flee to Naboo, where the ground forces are dispatched. Forget the gungans, they're not needed. They go straight to the Queen, who Anakin initially despises due to her high status, given he was raised as a slave before Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan found him. But he befriends her handmaiden, Padmé. The jedi are told they must evacuate the Queen to Coruscant and as the are leaving they are attacked by the Trade gunships and crash land on the planet Tatooine. Anakin's home. While Qui-Gon goes to find parts to repair the ship, Anakin goes to find his mother with Obi-Wan and Padmé. He finds her still a slave and he lashes out with the force at her slave owners, before being stopped by Obi-Wan. Qui-Gon speaks to him about this as he says he lost his master to the dark side and he will not see another jedi fall to it. He is then later consoled by Padmé. Darth Sidious, Darth Tyrannus dispatch their Sith Assassin to kill Jinn and Kenobi. and he fails. When the jedi get back to the Council, Jinn informs them of the resurgence of the Sith, and the situation with Naboo. Queen Amidala (decoy) votes no confidence in the current chancellor after being corrupted and swayed by Palpatine (a "Sith" mind trick). He is then elected Chancellor and orders Naboo must amass its army to declare war. The three jedi are taken back to Naboo and are told they must protect the Queen. Maul appears and kills the Queen and Padmé reveals herself as the real queen, much to Anakin's shock. Anyway, Anakin is told to leave as he is not ready to face a Sith, he initially doesn't but he relents at the words of Obi-Wan, he jumps into a fighter and leaves to fight in space, where he destroys the head of the blockade nearly singlehandedly. He returns to find Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan still fighting Maul. Maul, who is under orders not to kill Skywalker keeps him trapped under the force, and the fight continues. Jinn and Kenobi are seperated. Qui-Gon is too old to hold his own and is killed by Maul. Obi Wan then attacks him in a fit of rage succumbing to the dark side temporarily. He is quickly defeated in combat. However he regains his calm and uses Maul's hubris to defeat him. Qui-Gon's dying words are to teach Anakin everything that he taught to Obi-Wan as their is the potential to great darkness in him. Kenobi and Skywalker console each other.

Palpatine congratulates Kenobi and Skywalker and is seen attempting to manipulate him with a mind trick. Which fails. He then discusses that it will take longer than he realised to corrupt him as his mind is incredibly strong and he is incredibly attuned to the force. He would later be seen doing this in all the films to Anakin.

Attack of the Clones-

Again similar to the original film except it would take place over several months and it would have Asajj Ventress who used to try and kill Amidala.Plus Anakin is using Qui-Gon's lightsaber. Ventress is killed by Anakin who was succumbing to the dark side in the fight, because Obi-Wan isn't there to help him, along with the fact he has fallen for Amidala and his feeling if greed over her corrupts him a little. This is when we hear Qui-Gon screaming . Kenobi still looks into the amassed army in the name of the Jedi, all of whom based on Jango Fett and Obi-Wan is still abducted by Dooku and sent to death with Amidala and Skywalker. Dooku, like Maul is then not to kill Skywalker. So when cnfronted, he doesn't kill Obi-Wan out of loyalty to Qui-Gon and although he is told not to kill Skywalker he cuts off his arm to show he isn't all powerful. At which point he is confronted by Yoda and they fight. Anakin and Amidala marry.

Clone Wars-

Focuses very much on the relationship of Obi-Wan and Anakin, like the second season of the original Clone Wars series. In fact, nothing really noteworthy would be changed. However the battles that are shown would show that the Clone Wars is huge in scope, compared to the Civil War.

Revenge of the Sith-

In terms of story, nearly identical to the actual film. However Anakin kills Dooku because he is told that he was the one who orchestrated Jinn's death and took on the order of Ventress to kill Amidala. Again manipulating him a little more.

Anakin gives Padmé 3PO as a present to help with the babies.

The slaughtering of jedi in the Temple would be Anakin near enough under the control of Palpatine. Anakin then sees what he has done and has just given up and surrenders to the dark side.

Queen Amidala would publicly stand against the new Emperor and the army tries to kill her, but she is rescued by the royalty of Alderaan, Bail Organa.

If only...

I so badly wanted to see Padme stand up to Emperor Palpatine. She was a fighter and she should've gone down fighting. It would have been great to see her public opposition to the Emperor become the very beginnings of the rebellion.

[The_Raganork]

Originally Posted by Marx

If only...

I so badly wanted to see Padme stand up to Emperor Palpatine. She was a fighter and she should've gone down fighting.

This also bothered me a bit. The little deleted Scene in ROTS was ok but I was looking for a political fight that put her on the cusp of the rebellion. which sadly was ignored in the prequels. Could have been great.

I would have also loved a lot more Dooku, the trail deleted scene in AOTC was fun and put Christopher Lee in his element. I used to dream of a scene where Dooku attacks the senate, during a session, and makes a speech about the CIS ending the war on their turf and kidnapping Palpatine with Grevious' help...but alas.



Also:

Is anyone playing The Old Republic? I need friends for social points and whatever and it always seems so dead when I'm on.

[Marx]

Originally Posted by Raganork8

This also bothered me a bit. The little deleted Scene in ROTS was ok but I was looking for a political fight that put her on the cusp of the rebellion. which sadly was ignored in the prequels. Could have been great.

Indeed.

[danoyse]

Originally Posted by Marx

If only...

I so badly wanted to see Padme stand up to Emperor Palpatine. She was a fighter and she should've gone down fighting. It would have been great to see her public opposition to the Emperor become the very beginnings of the rebellion.

Yeah, I loved that "This is how liberty dies...with thunderous applause" scene in ROTS. But why the hell didn't they have more of her trying to stop it??

I swear, she was just there to stand around and be pregnant by the third movie.

[Marx]

Originally Posted by danoyse

Yeah, I loved that "This is how liberty dies...with thunderous applause" scene in ROTS. But why the hell didn't they have more of her trying to stop it??

I swear, she was just there to stand around and be pregnant by the third movie.

...it certainly seemed that way.

[Mandalore464]

Originally Posted by roach

it wasn't directed towards you...just every few pages or so this thread turns into "What I hate about the Prequels"

OK, no problem, I just wanted to clarify my post. You're right about seeing these posts everywhere but it was bound to happen with the release of TPM, I don't think the debate is tiresome. I like to see fans come up with their own version of the prequels.

Originally Posted by OptimusPrime

For example, I just found out that the Gears of War team has the same name as the Republic Commandos: DELTA SQUAD!!!!!!!!

Just found that out today as I was looking for SW:RC related art. I bought the video game (Republic Commando, not GoW) many years ago but didn't start playing it until yesterday! I'm a big fan of the RC series of books by Karen Traviss (no wonder considering my username...), anyone read them?

They're sometimes a bit too Mando-centric and anti-Jedi but fun nonetheless, with memorable characters, lots of backstory for every Mando fans and a must-read for any fan of the CW military.

[Marx]

Lucas took Luke and Leia's exchange...

Luke: Do you remember your mother? Your real mother?
Leia: Just images really. Feelings. She was very sad.

...and turned it into "Padme was so sad that she died of a broken heart" when it could've been turned into "Padme was so sad because of Anakin turning to the darkside and Palpatine destroying everything she'd worked so hard to build".

[The_Raganork]

Originally Posted by Marx

Lucas took Luke and Leia's exchange...

Luke: Do you remember your mother? Your real mother?
Leia: Just images really. Feelings. She was very sad.

...and turned it into "Padme was so sad that she died of a broken heart" when it could've been turned into "Padme was so sad because of Anakin turning to the darkside and Palpatine destroying everything she'd worked so hard to build".

I never took it that Luke and Leia's talk about their mother was explained or consistent with anything in the prequels. Leia clearly says she remembers her mother, as if she's seen her alive.

Another line not explained in the Prequels was Luke's feeling about Dagobah and feeling as if he's been there before, or it was something out of a dream.

[Marx]

Originally Posted by Raganork8

I never took it that Luke and Leia's talk about their mother was explained or consistent with anything in the prequels. Leia clearly says she remembers her mother, as if she's seen her alive.

I thought she said that she just remembered vague images and feelings.

Another line not explained in the Prequels was Luke's feeling about Dagobah and feeling as if he's been there before, or it was something out of a dream.

I'm not sure. In the deleted scenes of ROTS, it shows Yoda landing on Dagobah by himself in the spaceship pod that he took off in on Kashyyk. I was thinking that Yoda, Ben, Bail, Luke, and Leia could've been on board the Tantive IV and dropped Yoda off to hide (which would somewhat explain Luke's feeling)...but that wasn't so.

[Llama_Shepherd]

I took it as he saw it in a vision of the future.

The best thing about Padmé in Sith was that everything Anakin did was to save her, yet he caused her death. Beautiful irony.

[The_Raganork]

Originally Posted by Marx

I thought she said that she just remembered vague images and feelings.

Yeah, I haven't seen Jedi in a while but I remember the implication that she knew her mother and had an actual memory of knowing her in some capacity. Which always jived with ROTS. Some argue the fact that she was born last strengthened her connection with Padme and her memories are derived solely from a force bond.

I'm not sure. In the deleted scenes of ROTS, it shows Yoda landing on Dagobah by himself in the spaceship pod that he took off in on Kashyyk. I was thinking that Yoda, Ben, Bail, Luke, and Leia could've been on board the Tantive IV and dropped Yoda off to hide (which would somewhat explain Luke's feeling)...but that wasn't so.

Right, I kind of reconciled maybe he's just sensing Yoda, who was there during his birth but still it seems odd. The line is as if he's been to Dagobah before.

[Destructus86]

Originally Posted by Marx

Lucas took Luke and Leia's exchange...

Luke: Do you remember your mother? Your real mother?
Leia: Just images really. Feelings. She was very sad.

...and turned it into "Padme was so sad that she died of a broken heart" when it could've been turned into "Padme was so sad because of Anakin turning to the darkside and Palpatine destroying everything she'd worked so hard to build".

I HATEd what he did with Padme...it was stupid. So what...she dies because she has nothing to live for? What about the kids??

[The_Raganork]

Yeah, that was pretty bad. "lost the will to live."

How about the collapsing Galaxy your kids have just born into...

[Hunter Rider]

Originally Posted by OptimusPrime114

One question:

Did Star Wars: The Clone Wars change anybody's original perspective towards the prequels?

For me it has simply increased my enjoyment of them.

Originally Posted by Bim

Woo Hunter, congrats! Those two lightsabers are great, especially the Obi-Wan, of course lol

Lol, I am stoked with them, can't wait for them to arrive. The other MR Lightsaber I intend to buy is Darth Sidious.

Originally Posted by Raganork8

I would have also loved a lot more Dooku, the trail deleted scene in AOTC was fun and put Christopher Lee in his element. I used to dream of a scene where Dooku attacks the senate, during a session, and makes a speech about the CIS ending the war on their turf and kidnapping Palpatine with Grevious' help...but alas.

I'd have loved to have seen that as well, I thought Dooku was awesome personally. I loved how his death mirrored the Luke vs Vader duel from ROTJ.

[Llama_Shepherd]

It should've been the trauma of Vader and childbirth that killed her.

[Hunter Rider]

Bim showed me a piece of fan fiction that is written from Padme's internal POV as she is giving birth, it really makes her death work for me.

[Bim]

Originally Posted by Llama_Shepherd

The best thing about Padmé in Sith was that everything Anakin did was to save her, yet he caused her death. Beautiful irony.

Yeah; he started out as wanting to save her but then a little something called power started gaining strength within him. In the end, the desire for power was more powerful than wanting to save her. His greed won over, and we know how good sith are when it comes to greed

As far as Padme goes, i would have liked to have seen the rebellion scenes incorporated into the film and not so much as deleted scenes, although i understand why they were pulled out. They show Padme was doing more than just acting like an emo pregnant lady lol.

As far as Leia remembering Padme, it was more feelings than actual memories, that's how i interpreted her words anyways, so it doesnt bother me that Leia didnt know her per se; she could have just sensed her mother's feelings. I think they should have had Padme hold Leia though (and not Luke) and that's why Leia has a sense of her mother; make it a bit clearer.

I admit, before ROTS was released i always thought Padme would survive and die in between movies. That's one of the surprises they managed to pull off with me, i wasnt expecting that.

Edit: this is the fanfic Hunter means: http://fanfic.theforce.net/fanfic.as...n=view&ID=1621 . It's nothing official, but it resonated with me big time.

[The_Raganork]

I remember before ROTS was released one of the rumors was that Dooku and Mace Windu fight and eventually Dooku turned on Palpatine and they fought.

I always felt Dooku wasn't a real sith but more of a compromising Jedi. His words about Qui-Gon in AOTC and the lack of Sith eyes. Going by his actual name more than his Sith name.

I really wanted Dooku to have a redemption moment in ROTS where he revealed he was getting close to Palpatine to ultimately take him out and bring order to the collapsing republic, somewhat mirroring how Vader was able to kill Palpatine in Jedi.