The Wrestling Thread is Disease Free, and Would Like to Keep it That Way! - - Part 47

[spidey-dude]

Originally Posted by Dugath

Yet people seem to think the Rock.. is supposed to "provide rub" to wrestlers or interact with everyone.

Why does he need to do that? Is it a law?

He is doing what he has been paid to do, come in and work a program with Cena. Vince still calls the shots, he signed The Rock to do something and that is what he is doing. Some people are acting like he should come out and interact with.. Santino or Rider..ect.

So boo-hoo if he does not interact with a lot of people back stage. He is not a full time wrestler, in fact as we all know this is a one time program with Cena. He comes in as he was contracted to do and works the program.

As for Punk.. do not really get me started, he seems like he is someone who has some sort of complex which causes him to lash out at people who he will never be as good as in the wrestling industry. But as I do not know him personally I can not say this for a fact.

agreed - but he did tweet zack ryder the other day!

[Metallo]

Originally Posted by Hunter Rider

The point seems to be that The Rock doesn't have to be friendly and one of the boys, but he also doesn't have to be an obnoxious, self important douchebag either, and if he's the latter and forgot where he came from then you can expect guys like Punk and Cena to call him on it because they have the freedom to do so and Vince encourages conflict.

Rock also doesn't have to provide the rub yet that's what he claimed he was going to do, to lift the business up and help it out, guess he should really quit with saying stuff he doesn't mean, then no one would be upset if he just showed up and did his job with no expectations.

As far as Punk not being as good as......each to their own I guess.

The actions of the people we've been discussion say more than any words from them or some report. Even if we ignore all the rumors the actions of people like Foley, Michaels, Hart, and even Cena and Punk speak for themselves compared to some others an their bold words.

If Rocks there just to make appearances and win thats what he should focus on instead of making grandiose claims. He certainly didn't elevate Survivor Series to new heights. Some people will love it either way.

[spidey-dude]

Originally Posted by Metallo

I'm amazed at the bias of some people loving their attitude era hero...then again not really. So people gave Rock the rub and he can't do it for others? Just proves everything Cena said right.

can't do it for others? after 2002 The Rock hit a part time schedule and I saw (I didnt watch properly back then) him put over ltos of people - Goldberg, Lesnar, Orton... there were probably others too... and he has come back to work a program with Cena, who he is in all likely hood going to put over (as much as I would rather the Rock just win) I have seen him mention others on twitter and say good things about them (Ryder and CM Punk) how is what he is doing any different to Undertaker, who as far as I can recall hasnt been around since Mania and has come back to feud with HHH, a man who doesnt need any putting over....

don't forget the Rock didn't need to come back - say what you will about him self promoting etc... but he didn't need it, he doesn't need the money (yeah he is probably getting well paid but you wouldn't turn down a big payday! and it is probably FAR less than for a movie) he came back because the people wanted The Rock vs John Cena

[Van Petrol]

^ Yes!

[Hunter Rider]

Originally Posted by Metallo

The actions of the people we've been discussion say more than any words from them or some report. Even if we ignore all the rumors the actions of people like Foley, Michaels, Hart, and even Cena and Punk speak for themselves compared to some others an their bold words.

If Rocks there just to make appearances and win thats what he should focus on instead of making grandiose claims. He certainly didn't elevate Survivor Series to new heights. Some people will love it either way.

The thing is at his core Rock is a carny, he grew up in the business and much like Hogan he's prone to outlandish statement's.

Originally Posted by spidey-dude

can't do it for others? after 2002 The Rock hit a part time schedule and I saw (I didnt watch properly back then) him put over ltos of people - Goldberg, Lesnar, Orton... there were probably others too... and he has come back to work a program with Cena, who he is in all likely hood going to put over (as much as I would rather the Rock just win) I have seen him mention others on twitter and say good things about them (Ryder and CM Punk) how is what he is doing any different to Undertaker, who as far as I can recall hasnt been around since Mania and has come back to feud with HHH, a man who doesnt need any putting over....

In 2002 The Rock worked 5 PPV's and a Smackdown main event. He lost to Jericho at the Rumble after 5 run-ins from Team Canada, he beat Taker at No Way Out and Hogan at Mania. He then beat Jericho on the first brand split Smackdown main event and left. He came back 3 months later and beat Taker and Angle in a triple threat for the title at Vengeance which he dropped to Lesnar at the next PPV, Summerslam.

He left again and came back 6 months later and went over Hogan at No Way Out and Austin at Mania before jobbing to Goldberg. Since April 2003 The Rock has had two matches, both of them tags, in neither did he take the pin.

[Van Petrol]

The Austin-Rock WMXIX thing was more a favour, I believe. Rock asked Austin for the match as he hadn't got a victory in any of their previous WM matches to his name. Austin did it for him kinda' like how Michaels did the same for him at WM14 as he was in pretty bad condition at the time, even having a really bad turn the day before the event, but soldiered on without telling anyone other than JR as he didn't want to let anyone down and stink out the event.

Rock beating Taker and Angle for the title was more a business thing, I reckon. Rock vs. Brock sounded bigger and better for business at the time than Brock vs. any of the aforementioned two.

[Metallo]

Originally Posted by spidey-dude

can't do it for others? after 2002 The Rock hit a part time schedule and I saw (I didnt watch properly back then) him put over ltos of people - Goldberg, Lesnar, Orton... there were probably others too... and he has come back to work a program with Cena, who he is in all likely hood going to put over (as much as I would rather the Rock just win) I have seen him mention others on twitter and say good things about them (Ryder and CM Punk) how is what he is doing any different to Undertaker, who as far as I can recall hasnt been around since Mania and has come back to feud with HHH, a man who doesnt need any putting over....

don't forget the Rock didn't need to come back - say what you will about him self promoting etc... but he didn't need it, he doesn't need the money (yeah he is probably getting well paid but you wouldn't turn down a big payday! and it is probably FAR less than for a movie) he came back because the people wanted The Rock vs John Cena

Rocks a veteran/legend now the same way Hogan is or Flair is. 2002 or 2003 was HOW MANY years ago? Most of those people he put over then are gone or retired.

Saying good things and DOING good things aren't the same. Jericho isn't there SAYING nice things. He will put someone over the same way Michaels did. Miz and Truth were cannon fodder for The Rock.

Takers current act isn't helping anyone either. point out where I said it did. But Taker has put over TWENTY years building this company. Taker weathered the WWE's lean years when people were jumping ship to WCW and did his part to help keep it alive even though I'm sure he got some big money offers. THATS the difference between Rock and Taker.

Taker helped keep the company afloat long enough so guys like Rock could benefit from the Attitude Era kicking off. Rocks never been there as a top guy busting his ass every night during a down period like that one. Taker has. Huge difference. When WWE's business did decline in the mid 2000s Rock was nowhere to be seen and that wasn't nearly as bad as the mid 90's slump.

Like you said Rocks return isn't for free. He came back...so what? A lot of well off guys don't NEED to come back. Did a lot of those big names that returned in the early 200's NEED to come back? Did Hogan NEED to come back in 2005? Details on his worth before his divorce are out there. The guy was rolling in dough. So what?

Rock doesn't NEED to win either does he? Is the business going to be ruined forever if he loses? Doubtful. WWE wasn't exactly hurting for profits without him and he hasn't made a big across the board difference while he's been there.

[Keyser Soze]

Originally Posted by The Sage

There's going to be a Marine 3?

I guess his defense with that will be once he's finished filming, he'll be back in WWE and not going to Hollywood.

Cena's defense could be that he's working under the banner of WWE Films, so his movie roles are in service of the WWE brand, rather than himself.

[Keyser Soze]

Originally Posted by Dr. Evil

Teddy is boring, but I do get a chuckle out of all of the times he makes Tag team matches or announces bad guy vs. "The Undertakah"

Teddy Long is one of the best GMs of all time because, for the most part, he just does his job, rather than the show's storylines revolving around him.

[Metallo]

Foley was the one who took the pin at WM20 not Rock. And he did more to put Orton over than The Rock. Not sure how much Rock did to put Orton over other than just working with him. As far as I remember there was no singles match. Foley deserves the lions share of credit for Ortons build up at the time.

Originally Posted by Van Petrol

The Austin-Rock WMXIX thing was more a favour, I believe. Rock asked Austin for the match as he hadn't got a victory in any of their previous WM matches to his name. Austin did it for him kinda' like how Michaels did the same for him at WM14 as he was in pretty bad condition at the time, even having a really bad turn the day before the event, but soldiered on without telling anyone other than JR as he didn't want to let anyone down and stink out the event.

Rock beating Taker and Angle for the title was more a business thing, I reckon. Rock vs. Brock sounded bigger and better for business at the time than Brock vs. any of the aforementioned two.

Rock beating Austin and Austin beating Michaels were the right things to do at the time. In those respective matches Rock and Austin were bigger stars going forward with than the guys putting them over. Austin was done after 2003 and Michaels was done after 98. Neither one were going to be there full time. Its no different with Cena.

Rock was the biggest credible top guy who could put over Brock. He was built as the last line in Lesnars way to cross. HHH wasn't as big a star and he was off doing his own BS. Also Rock would take time off after that so it only made sense that he put Brock, the full time guy, over.

Rocks job should be to do everything he can to cement Cena as an icon forever at Wrestlemania...the same way Hogan did it for Rock.

[Metallo]

Originally Posted by Keyser Soze

Teddy Long is one of the best GMs of all time because, for the most part, he just does his job, rather than the show's storylines revolving around him.

Thats one reason I like Teddy as a face authority figure despite his predictability. Its the same reason I like Sting in that role in TNA. Unlike HHH the entire show and main program don't always revolve around them. Stings also willing to be on the losing end if it comes to that.

The authority figures role should be a tool to further the story...not BE the story.

Besides... the heel authority figure is played out to me. Its been done to death. And its not like we've seen many that topped Bischoff and McMahon in that type of role.

[Van Petrol]

Originally Posted by Metallo

Rock beating Austin and Austin beating Michaels were the right things to do at the time. In those respective matches Rock and Austin were bigger stars going forward with than the guys putting them over. Austin was done after 2003 and Michaels was done after 98. Neither one were going to be there full time. Its no different with Cena.

Rock was the biggest credible top guy who could put over Brock. He was built as the last line in Lesnars way to cross. HHH wasn't as big a star and he was off doing his own BS. Also Rock would take time off after that so it only made sense that he put Brock, the full time guy, over.

Rocks job should be to do everything he can to cement Cena as an icon forever at Wrestlemania...the same way Hogan did it for Rock.

Are you just adding to, or discrediting my statement?

[Benstamania]

Originally Posted by Keyser Soze

Cena's defense could be that he's working under the banner of WWE Films, so his movie roles are in service of the WWE brand, rather than himself.

When Cena films a movie he only tends to take off house shows. He'll still do live events.

[Metallo]

Originally Posted by Van Petrol

Are you just adding to, or discrediting my statement?

I'm just saying what was going on to make a point. It wasn't just a favor but in those instances the right thing to do. But what YOU said just shows why Rock shouldn't go over Cena. I agree with you.

But whats your point of repeating to Hunter Rider what he and we all already know?

[Dangerman]

Originally Posted by Metallo

Foley was the one who took the pin at WM20 not Rock. And he did more to put Orton over than The Rock. Not sure how much Rock did to put Orton over other than just working with him. As far as I remember there was no singles match. Foley deserves the lions share of credit for Ortons build up at the time.



Rock beating Austin and Austin beating Michaels were the right things to do at the time. In those respective matches Rock and Austin were bigger stars going forward with than the guys putting them over. Austin was done after 2003 and Michaels was done after 98. Neither one were going to be there full time. Its no different with Cena.

Rock was the biggest credible top guy who could put over Brock. He was built as the last line in Lesnars way to cross. HHH wasn't as big a star and he was off doing his own BS. Also Rock would take time off after that so it only made sense that he put Brock, the full time guy, over.

Rocks job should be to do everything he can to cement Cena as an icon forever at Wrestlemania...the same way Hogan did it for Rock.

Triple H did that for him twice. Cena/Rock will be like Brock vs Goldberg only better.

[Van Petrol]

Originally Posted by Metallo

I'm just saying what was going on to make a point. It wasn't just a favor but in those instances the right thing to do. But what YOU said just shows why Rock shouldn't go over Cena. I agree with you.

But whats your point of repeating to Hunter Rider what he and we all already know?

Ok, cool! Sorry, I just wasn't sure what you were getting at.

I was just expanding on those two points and giving a bit more of a clearer picture in case there were some that weren't aware of the circumstances and surrounding situations. That's all.

[Metallo]

Originally Posted by Dangerman

Triple H did that for him twice. Cena/Rock will be like Brock vs Goldberg only better.

Not the same kind of cementing. Rock is a much bigger star than HHH so its not the same. HHH legitimized Cena but it wasn't a legendary passing of the torch.

HHH isn't on the level of Hogan, Rock, Austin, Andre, etc.

This is akin to Warrior beating Hogan or Rock beating Austin and particularly Rock beating Hogan. The clash of top generational stars.

Brock vs Goldberg wasn't the clash of the two biggest stars of their eras. It was two like titans colliding. The irresistible force meeting the immovable object. Both men were billed as unstoppable powerhouses. Brock never stuck around long enough to be the top star of anything and while Goldberg was the top guy in WCW briefly...that was WCW. Not WWF.

[Sith Scotti]

HHH is definitely on the same level as the rock in the wrestling world . Rock is a hollywood guy as much as wrestler but HHH has been a staple in the wrestling industry for a much longer time now.

[chamber-music]

I don't blame The Rock for the Miz and Truth squash that was booking. Triple H is actively involved in the business because its his family business, he has an actual role in the company.

If WWE wrestlers want to blame anyone for not headlining Wrestlemania or having bigger spots blame Vince and creative. The WWE's poor ability to make new headline stars is the reason Vince has to go running to The Rock to mainevent in the first place.

Real talk. The reason these guys are b***** is because they ain't got the stones to come out and say Vince and co have been bad at making big stars due to Vince fear of making anymore wrestlers like Hogan who become bigger than the company.

Fact is beside Orton and Cena the WWE is over reliant on old talent like Taker, Jericho, Triple H, The Rock and so on because they can't make the other guys sell

[Team Andino]

Originally Posted by chamber-music

I don't blame The Rock for the Miz and Truth squash that was booking. Triple H is actively involved in the business because its his family business, he has an actual role in the company.

If WWE wrestlers want to blame anyone for not headlining Wrestlemania or having bigger spots blame Vince and creative. The WWE's poor ability to make new headline stars is the reason Vince has to go running to The Rock to mainevent in the first place.

Real talk. The reason these guys are b***** is because they ain't got the stones to come out and say Vince and co have been bad at making big stars due to Vince fear of making anymore wrestlers like Hogan who become bigger than the company.

Fact is beside Orton and Cena the WWE is over reliant on old talent like Taker, Jericho, Triple H, The Rock and so on because they can't make the other guys sell

Exactly, I hate that Cena wants to complain about The Rock but what about the system that won't push as he said it last night "professional wrestlers". WWE has way to much talent to be in pickle they're in now. It's their own fault as they've shot themselves in the foot many times over the years.

[The Chris]

I wonder how these guys feel when dudes like floyd mayweather come in and beat big show, or when hogan won the wwe title. No one lost more mania matches than rock. Who did angle beat to win his first wwe title? Who did jericho beat for his first wcw title and then later for the undisputed title more than once? Who did the job for lesnar when others wouldn't. Who lost to goldberg in his debut? Who made hurricane look like a star? These guys need to get that everything they've done rock and hes been helping the business for a long time. Makes me wish taker would have a talk with these guys.

[Metallo]

Originally Posted by Sith Scotti

HHH is definitely on the same level as the rock in the wrestling world . Rock is a hollywood guy as much as wrestler but HHH has been a staple in the wrestling industry for a much longer time now.

HHH was popular but he was never the top star the way Rock and Austin were. HHH is as RECOGNIZABLE to the fans but he was never the draw, merch seller, or ratings grabber that the Rock was. IF he was the WWE's ppv buys and ratings never would have begun to decline with HHH as top guy.

When Austin was hurt Rock kept things steady. When Rock and Austin both left HHH didn't. Both eras had great supporting stars in the roster so that can't really be a factor.

Originally Posted by chamber-music

I don't blame The Rock for the Miz and Truth squash that was booking. Triple H is actively involved in the business because its his family business, he has an actual role in the company.

If WWE wrestlers want to blame anyone for not headlining Wrestlemania or having bigger spots blame Vince and creative. The WWE's poor ability to make new headline stars is the reason Vince has to go running to The Rock to main event in the first place.

Real talk. The reason these guys are b***** is because they ain't got the stones to come out and say Vince and co have been bad at making big stars due to Vince fear of making anymore wrestlers like Hogan who become bigger than the company.

Fact is beside Orton and Cena the WWE is over reliant on old talent like Taker, Jericho, Triple H, The Rock and so on because they can't make the other guys sell

Um...Punk HAS said that. he has complained about WWE's problems with making new stars. But the brass has a hard time listing. In this case its hard to put ALL the blame on Vince and creative when Rock has the stroke to call his own shots. If Jericho does then I know Rock does. He could do a number of things...if he wanted to. Rock has the better bargaining posture here than Vince. Rocks a mainstream star. Wrestling is a NICHE form of entertainment especially right now. Vince has ALWAYS been desperate for mainstream attention.

Too many guys have had the stoke to do their small part and everything they could to make new stars to say that Rock doesn't.

Mick Foley and Shawn Michaels made CAREERS out of that. Speaking of Orton...Orton wouldn't be where he is without help from a guy like Foley.

Shawn Michaels could have said no to putting over guy after guy but in many cases he asked to do it. Shawn Michaels was the guy who stood the line and defended CM Punk when no on else would. Thats because he was around enough to give a damn about what was goign on in the company.

Originally Posted by Team Andino

Exactly, I hate that Cena wants to complain about The Rock but what about the system that won't push as he said it last night "professional wrestlers". WWE has way to much talent to be in pickle they're in now. It's their own fault as they've shot themselves in the foot many times over the years.

And yet here Rock is taking a spot that COULD be used to build up a young star....which wouldn't be so bad if he was there more regularly. Thats Cena and Punks whole point.

[Scar Predator]

I liked what Cena had to say in terms of kayfabe. When he's no-nonsense and straight-forward, he's at his best. He came off as someone who had a legitimate (and understandable) problem with the Rock.

Does it make me want to cheer him instead of Rock? Let me put it this way: Rock could return next Monday night and say WM will be his last match. Rock could say he is ashamed to have ever been a wrestler and only used the WWE Universe to get to his real goal. He could say we are all complete morons who don't deserve him. And yet, I would still cheer him over Cena.

Why? Rock is better on the mic. Rock is a better in-ring worker. Rock has more charisma. The Rock is one of the best of a crop of elite wrestlers in the late 90s. Cena is the best of a bad generation. I don't have anything against the man behind the character, but he got elevated by default. No matter what Cena says, I'm not going to root for a lesser talent to win in a match of this magnitude.

[Metallo]

Originally Posted by The Chris

I wonder how these guys feel when dudes like floyd mayweather come in and beat big show, or when hogan won the wwe title. No one lost more mania matches than rock. Who did angle beat to win his first wwe title? Who did jericho beat for his first wcw title and then later for the undisputed title more than once? Who did the job for lesnar when others wouldn't. Who lost to goldberg in his debut? Who made hurricane look like a star? These guys need to get that everything they've done rock and hes been helping the business for a long time. Makes me wish taker would have a talk with these guys.

The old phrase "what have you done for me lately" comes to mind. yeah Rock did a lot to put guys over...but that was a decade ago. He's on another level now and thus a win over him now means more than it ever did. Whats he doing for today's WWE? That doesn't mean he should stroll in now and be put over at everyone else's expense.

I can point to jobs (even clean ones) Hogan did...but him coming in as a part timer to beat regular performer Shawn Michaels YEARS later was still crap.

The guys feel even worse about celebs coming in and taking their spots. They aren't even wrestlers. At least the Rock has been.

[Team Andino]

Originally Posted by Metallo

And yet here Rock is taking a spot that COULD be used to build up a young star....which wouldn't be so bad if he was there more regularly. Thats Cena and Punks whole point.

Rock is only there for major angles obviously, what about Cena? I loved how he put Del Rio over... oh wait. He didn't he beat him for the title and held it for two week for no reason only for Del Rio to win it back. With the exception of Punk last summer Cena hasn't done very much to put anyone else over (unless they cheat or three people interfere on his opponents behalf). Cena complains about Rock when really the issue is within. Maybe Rock could of had a big money match with a main eventer in Drew McIntyre had WWE decided to not pull the rug out from underneath him like they do to so many younger guys they decide to push.

Miz, Del Rio, Sheamus, Swagger, Barrett, McIntyre, Brodus, Tyson Kidd, Nexus, Corre, Ted DiBiase Jr., among others are young guys they gave pushes too then at some point early on pulled the rug underneath them. Sure some of those have slowly been brought back up, but why shove them down in the first place? It's WWE's fault and WWE's issue. Rock can only handle what Rock does. If Cena is serious about the future of this business then he'll need to start using his power in making things happen.