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View Poll Results: Which one is going to make more money?
The Avengers 33 22.76%
The Dark Knight Rises 112 77.24%
Voters: 145. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 07-28-2012, 10:50 PM   #326
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Default Re: The Avengers vs The Dark Knight Rises - Part 1

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Originally Posted by CConn View Post
I still don't get why people didn't think the Avengers could work. Were they retarded? It's a pretty straightfoward concept and plot structure.

The only question mark I ever had with the film was if it was going to delve into Iron Man 2/Incredible Hulk-level mediocrity...but that has nothing to do with the actual premise.
It was more to do with having so many big named characters in one film. In the end the solution was simple, don't let anyone be the star, use a fairly standard and straight forward plot and pump up the action. Job done.

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Old 07-28-2012, 11:35 PM   #327
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Default Re: The Avengers vs The Dark Knight Rises - Part 1

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Originally Posted by R_Hythlodeus View Post
TDKR was very disappointing. Not one remotly interesting character

The Avengers offically ruled this summer.
I strongly disagree.

How do you know that Avengers officialy ruled the summer? TDKR is only on it's second weekend. While the chances are slim, it could possibly make more than Avengers.\

Alright, with that out of the way, I enjoyed TDKR and Avengers A LOT. I enjoyed Avengers more, but I think TDKR is the better film. The Avengers left me wanting to see it AGAIN and AGAIN. While TDKR left me crying.

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Old 07-29-2012, 11:15 AM   #328
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Default Re: The Avengers vs The Dark Knight Rises - Part 1

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It was more to do with having so many big named characters in one film. In the end the solution was simple, don't let anyone be the star, use a fairly standard and straight forward plot and pump up the action. Job done.
There's really two questions there. "Why did people claim Avengers had no chance?" and "Why was Avengers actually risky?"

Avengers certainly had real risks: the director and actors had to sell the very different characters interacting, and in a way that the audience would care about. Poorly handled, it could have very easily turned into Transformers. That's totally aside from the whole "setting up the characters" challenge that they already dealt with via prior movies.

As for why people *said* Avengers was a huge risk? Well, prior to Captain America, it was a huge risk because any one character failing big time in their own movie would torpedo the team film. After that point? It was largely fanboy justifications for denigrating the movie, IMO.

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Old 07-29-2012, 12:16 PM   #329
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Default Re: The Avengers vs The Dark Knight Rises - Part 1

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Originally Posted by El Payaso View Post
After the unfortunate events of TDKR's release, I don't think this is going to be a fair competition.
I agree, some Premier dates got pushed back because of the shooting, which adds an unfair advantage to the Avengers.

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Old 07-29-2012, 10:34 PM   #330
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Default Re: The Avengers vs The Dark Knight Rises - Part 1

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Originally Posted by metaphysician View Post
There's really two questions there. "Why did people claim Avengers had no chance?" and "Why was Avengers actually risky?"

Avengers certainly had real risks: the director and actors had to sell the very different characters interacting, and in a way that the audience would care about. Poorly handled, it could have very easily turned into Transformers. That's totally aside from the whole "setting up the characters" challenge that they already dealt with via prior movies.

As for why people *said* Avengers was a huge risk? Well, prior to Captain America, it was a huge risk because any one character failing big time in their own movie would torpedo the team film. After that point? It was largely fanboy justifications for denigrating the movie, IMO.
It certainly had risks and as much money as the studio dumped into the advertising campaign it could have made John Carter look like a walk in the park by comparison. I still don't think Disney has released a full accounting of the production cost of the film. Unofficially it's 250M but I'm betting it's more like 350M with the advertising dollars.

Adding to the fact that outside of Iron Man the other MCU films were successful, but hardly blockbusters.

Now I think they upped the ante of the whole franchise.

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Old 07-30-2012, 05:54 AM   #331
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Default Re: The Avengers vs The Dark Knight Rises - Part 1

So i decided to take some quotes from the begining of the thread when none movie was released for some "I Told you So's"
Cant say much of TDKR vs Avengers because of what happened but i can easily talk about how much people here were wrong about The Avengers:

Quote:
Originally Posted by El Payaso
Anyways, this thread MUST be open until both movies are out so winners can mock at losers to no end.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDudeHimself
Dude...you can t be serious. The Avengers will make Iron Man Numbers.
Seems like i was completelly right, Avengers broke records, i was only wrong on the fact that it may surpass Titanic.

Quote:
Realistically, The Avengers is going to make at least as much as Iron Man 2 world wide (~312 domestic, ~311 foreign). Domestic and foreign, it has a shot at at least 350 million in each with all the hype, potentially added audiences etc. So I think 700 million is a reasonable floor.
Oh really? or maybe it does double of that.

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Originally Posted by Anita18
We have to consider the box office argument rationally.

For the singular Marvel movies, the highest grossing is IM1, with $318 million. IM2 is not far behind with $312 million. So the IM movies for all intents and purposes, shared the same audience although losing a small percentage. Thor and Cap both earned less than $200 million, and TIH earned less than $150 million. It's not too ridiculous to assume that those movies basically share the same audience, because Marvel wants them all in the same universe. It's the same reason why all the Harry Potter movies consistently made around $300 million after the first one - the same audience showed up to each one. Same with Twilight.

TDK earned $533 million, more than twice of what BB grossed. Obviously the audience expanded majorly for that, although obviously we won't have the combined Heath-Ledger-playing-the-Joker-dying effect this time around. But what percentage of the audience do you think TDKR will lose because of that? 10%, which would be $480 million? 20%, for $426 million? 30%, for $373 million? 40%, finally on par with IM1 with $319 million?

Which is honestly more likely - that Avengers will suddenly gain the audience of IM AND Thor or Cap or Hulk (assuming that they are completely different audiences, which of course you can't), or that TDKR will lose 40% of the audience from TDK?

I know what I'm betting on.
This post was considered the best and smartest prediction, however it seems like i was right in the fact that Thor, Iron Man, and Captain America had some different audiences that joined together for Avengers, i remember that most of my predictions for Avengers were considered an exageration, seems like i was just predicting right.

Seems my anylisis turn out to be true but never believed

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Plenty of male-led action films fail, yet the actors' gender is not blamed. Why should it be different for women? Especially since far more male-led action films are made than female-led action films?

Last edited by Lord; 07-30-2012 at 05:58 AM.
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Old 07-30-2012, 07:38 AM   #332
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Default Re: The Avengers vs The Dark Knight Rises - Part 1

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Originally Posted by metaphysician View Post
There's really two questions there. "Why did people claim Avengers had no chance?" and "Why was Avengers actually risky?"

Avengers certainly had real risks: the director and actors had to sell the very different characters interacting, and in a way that the audience would care about. Poorly handled, it could have very easily turned into Transformers. That's totally aside from the whole ''setting up the characters'' challenge that they already dealt with via prior movies.

As for why people *said* Avengers was a huge risk? Well, prior to Captain America, it was a huge risk because any one character failing big time in their own movie would torpedo the team film. After that point? It was largely fanboy justifications for denigrating the movie, IMO.
Look, no movie is without risk, lets not make out what was done is this great, unfathomable gamble, it's a cross franchise movie, something that's been done before, the right people with the right ambitions led to a successful film. In retrospect with IM's success Avengers was always going to be at worst on par with that film in terms of success, once that character made 100 million on its debut there was always going to be a buffer in case Thor, Hulk or Cap didn't perform the same or worst failed, so Avengers was never doomed to fail IMO, it's success is down to several factors, but mostly it's Whedon, it's got little if anything to do with the Marvel Universe, the only down side now is that he's made the other lead up films look really pale in comparison now.

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Old 07-30-2012, 07:41 AM   #333
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Default Re: The Avengers vs The Dark Knight Rises - Part 1

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Originally Posted by Lord View Post
\ This post was considered the best and smartest prediction, however it seems like i was right in the fact that Thor, Iron Man, and Captain America had some different audiences that joined together for Avengers, i remember that most of my predictions for Avengers were considered an exageration, seems like i was just predicting right.

Seems my anylisis turn out to be true but never believed
You're analysis is still wrong, just because the numbers were astronomical doesn't prove there were 4 different audiences for each film franchise, to believe so is seriously misguided. The audience is still one in the same, Avengers just had a far broader reach than any one of those movies which proves to me one thing, Avengers, TDK, they are event films featuring the best of the best which is why they're both the two highest grossing superhero films ever, the general audience only gives a **** about the best.

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Last edited by jmc; 07-30-2012 at 07:46 AM.
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Old 07-30-2012, 07:47 AM   #334
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Default Re: The Avengers vs The Dark Knight Rises - Part 1

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You're analysis is still wrong, just because the numbers were astronomical doesn't prove there were 4 different audiences for each film franchise, to believe so is seriously misguided. The audience is still one in the same, Avengers just had a far broader reach than any one of those movies.
Yes there was, there were people that returned for each film, but each film also had some different audiences, which is one of the reasons why it made so much money, that along with the hype and interest such a crossover film brought.

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Plenty of male-led action films fail, yet the actors' gender is not blamed. Why should it be different for women? Especially since far more male-led action films are made than female-led action films?
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Old 07-30-2012, 07:49 AM   #335
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Default Re: The Avengers vs The Dark Knight Rises - Part 1

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Yes there was, there were people that returned for each film, but each film also had some different audiences, which is one of the reasons why it made so much money, that along with the hype and interest such a crossover film brought.
No it wasn't, they shared the exact same audience. Avengers pulled in a broader audience.

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Old 07-30-2012, 09:05 AM   #336
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Default Re: The Avengers vs The Dark Knight Rises - Part 1

TDKR will release at August 15th, in my country. Tim Burton's Batman 1989 and Returns are still my favorites. I think The Avengers is the best Marvel film.

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Old 07-30-2012, 03:09 PM   #337
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Default Re: The Avengers vs The Dark Knight Rises - Part 1

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No it wasn't, they shared the exact same audience. Avengers pulled in a broader audience.
So basically, your saying the exact same people watched Iron Man and Thor and Cap and Hulk, with 100% perfect overlap.

Avengers certainly drew in the broader audience, but to act like the setup films didn't contribute is hilarious. Believe it or not, not everyone watched all four franchises beforehand.

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Old 07-30-2012, 04:31 PM   #338
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Default Re: The Avengers vs The Dark Knight Rises - Part 1

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So basically, your saying the exact same people watched Iron Man and Thor and Cap and Hulk, with 100% perfect overlap.
Quote:
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Avengers certainly drew in the broader audience, but to act like the setup films didn't contribute is hilarious. Believe it or not, not everyone watched all four franchises beforehand.
That's kinda that point I was making, Avengers massive success isn't down to the previous franchises alone, it's down to it being a great, fun spectacle of a movie. A film doesn't make a billion dollars on the back of fanboys alone, Avengers had far wider appeal than any of Marvel's movies.

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Old 07-30-2012, 04:52 PM   #339
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Default Re: The Avengers vs The Dark Knight Rises - Part 1

I think personally, The Avengers was a much better movie than The Dark Knight Rises. It doesn't pack the same emotional punch, but it's more tightly wound, and makes better use of it's ensemble cast than TDKR does.


There are also certain twists in TDKR that fall flat on their face. Revealing:
Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
That the villain you've been watching for 2 hours and fifteen minutes is just an underling and a pawn
in the last 20 minutes of the movie is not "great story telling", it's a cheap thrill.

Avengers is a less complex film, less "adult" if you will, but it's a more consistent movie. (I felt the same way about WALL-E, my top blockbuster of 2008, when it came out the same year as TDK; being lighter doesn't damn the quality of the film.) Still Nolan should be given some sort of award for making one of the top trilogy closers ever.

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Old 07-30-2012, 05:03 PM   #340
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Default Re: The Avengers vs The Dark Knight Rises - Part 1

^well thats why i love tdkr more lol

more emotional punch - drama and stakes were so good

the acting was just on another level

and had a better script and plot

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Old 07-30-2012, 05:09 PM   #341
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Default Re: The Avengers vs The Dark Knight Rises - Part 1

Avengers hasn't got much story going for it. On my third viewing I realized you can really skip the first hour or so of the movie and not miss a hell of a lot, the best stuff happens from mid-way through the second act onwards. TDKR in contrast needs an extra 30 mins to tell its story properly. Where TDKR trumps it is in the acting department, although to be fair the Avengers cast didn't have a great deal to work with in comparison. Both films do suffer from one thing though, a character who's costume is completely pointless, Captain America and Catwoman have no reason to be dressed the way they are.

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Old 07-30-2012, 05:35 PM   #342
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Default Re: The Avengers vs The Dark Knight Rises - Part 1

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That's kinda that point I was making, Avengers massive success isn't down to the previous franchises alone, it's down to it being a great, fun spectacle of a movie. A film doesn't make a billion dollars on the back of fanboys alone, Avengers had far wider appeal than any of Marvel's movies.
And in my predictions i didn't say it was only because of fan boys watching it, i said it was because of different audiences from the other films watching it along with the big crowd that were interested in the concept.

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Plenty of male-led action films fail, yet the actors' gender is not blamed. Why should it be different for women? Especially since far more male-led action films are made than female-led action films?
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Old 07-30-2012, 06:30 PM   #343
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Default Re: The Avengers vs The Dark Knight Rises - Part 1

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And in my predictions i didn't say it was only because of fan boys watching it, i said it was because of different audiences from the other films watching it along with the big crowd that were interested in the concept.
What 'different audience'? These aren't 4 different films appealing to 4 different groups of people, they appeal to the superhero crowd.

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Old 07-30-2012, 07:01 PM   #344
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Default Re: The Avengers vs The Dark Knight Rises - Part 1

I know what Lord is trying to say, but I don't think it actually works that way. Captain America, Hulk and Thor simply aren't big enough movies to have hugely diverse crowds.

They probably have a few different groups of people, but I don't think it's diverse enough to make a difference. Most likely, many of the people who saw Captain America, Hulk and Thor were the same people. The main appeal is the superhero and comic book crowd as these movies are engrained in the comic book genre, which isn't a bad thing.

I didn't include Iron Man because Iron Man is a much more highly successful film than the others.

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Old 07-30-2012, 07:23 PM   #345
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Default Re: The Avengers vs The Dark Knight Rises - Part 1

I like what was said a page back, Avengers was better executed. To me TDKR could've been more, but it simply wasn't. Even it's financial crisis undertones were just kind of there and gone. I didn't feel for the citizens of Gotham either, as they were nearly abscent, and Bane's occupation was rather mundane after the openning salvo.

Avengers may not have been some mega-complicated story, but it made genuine characters who felt real.

TDKR had that in Wayne and needed more Selina Kyle, but muddled itself in a bunch of non characters who did not seem real, necessary, and died without so much as a wimper. Had TDKR more the pacing of TDK I think it would've been better, but honestly, that could've taken a whole extra hour. I felt like I had been read the high points of a 5 hour story. I guess you could say TDKR is ambitious, but lost it's teeth.

As much as I pick on his films for it, Nolan dwelled on things much heavier for much longer in previous Bat-movies. It made those things seem more real. To me you lack a lot of the 'Magic Trick', 'Gamble death', 'Interrogation', 'Burning money', 'Harvey in the hospital' and the hostage of Gordon's kids...those moments were so much more vivid.

Nolan's trilogy to me ended on a thud, it was a good thud though. Kind of like a deadpanned Michael Bay film. It retained the seriousness, but like Michael Bay, it lacked any depth aside from Wayne. I also felt like it sleeved some characters like Alfred way too early.

You could even say it was almost like the best finale episode of a sitcom. You get a ton of cameos of past characters saying their goodbyes, so it's good closure, even though they still kind of wish it was a better episode.

Maybe they're incomparable in that sense. Avengers functions as a set up film, it just seemed like it was a little better execution overall. I could nitpick certain things on Batman like the acting, and Bruce Wayne's character, but there is so much else I could just kind of leave it seems wrong to rank it above a movie I didn't have nearly as many reservations about.

TDKR has it all over The Amazing Spider-Man. All over.


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Old 07-30-2012, 08:12 PM   #346
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Default Re: The Avengers vs The Dark Knight Rises - Part 1

did you just compare TDKR to a michael bay film

WOW

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Old 07-30-2012, 08:15 PM   #347
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did you just compare TDKR to a michael bay film

WOW
Did you know Nolan cited Michael Bay as an influence in this film? Nolan's actually said before he's a director he admires.

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Old 07-30-2012, 09:06 PM   #348
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Default Re: The Avengers vs The Dark Knight Rises - Part 1

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Did you know Nolan cited Michael Bay as an influence in this film? Nolan's actually said before he's a director he admires.
Where did he cite him as an influence? Or the he admires him? The only thing I've heard in relation to Nolan and Bay is Wally Pfister saying "I don't like Michael Bay movies but Chris does."

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Old 07-30-2012, 09:39 PM   #349
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Default Re: The Avengers vs The Dark Knight Rises - Part 1

Michael Bay does a lot of really good things visually with the action scenes in his movies. It's the story-related aspects of his movies that he struggles with.

If I were making an action movie, I would take some influence from his movies. I'd almost view him as more of an action choreographer than a director, as it were.

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Old 07-31-2012, 12:07 AM   #350
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Default Re: The Avengers vs The Dark Knight Rises - Part 1

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did you just compare TDKR to a michael bay film

WOW

Why not? Speaking for myself, Nolan has made more films that genuinely pissed me off than Bay has.

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