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View Poll Results: Which Hulk movie is better?
The Incredible Hulk 189 69.74%
Hulk 82 30.26%
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Old 04-13-2012, 01:41 PM   #351
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Default Re: TIH vs. Ang Lee's Hulk

Because that version of General Ross was an honorable man, whose interaction with Bruce Banner made him think he should reconsider his own kneejerk reactions to people? Yes, it was the wrong decision, but I think it was totally reasonably that he would decide to allow a father one last chance to see his son.

( not cutting things short sooner, OTOH, I won't defend. Its not like I think the ending sequence was a good idea. . . )

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Old 04-13-2012, 01:54 PM   #352
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Default Re: TIH vs. Ang Lee's Hulk

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David clearly says to Betty "If I turn myself in now, peacefully, that you ask your father, as a man, as a father himself, to let me see my son, one last time." That was the deal so they had to honour it, they didnt, sorry, couldnt know that David had super-powers, and they also saw that having Betty on hand would calm the Hulk down, hence why she was there at proceedings. I personally never had a problem with it. They didnt know what David was capable of had they not honoured the deal.

As for TIH, I liked that movie as well, I was it every now and again, but the lack of depth means i'm just not clamouring to re-watch it like I am with Ang's movie. IMO, depth is what makes movies more re-watchable.
I certainly agree about depth. It does makes characters more believable. But I at the risk of sounding like a broken record, depth is not everything to a movie.

But as I said for reason stated above, too much depth and misaimed depth can ruin a movie. When you start putting in details that don't help the plot in the long run, it can hurt the movie.

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Old 04-13-2012, 04:06 PM   #353
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Default Re: TIH vs. Ang Lee's Hulk

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I can see why it was done that way, though. It was to avoid the origin story for another movie in such a short period after the last movie. On that front, I agree with that decision to gloss over it.
I'd agree if there were some significant enlightening flashbacks. But it did neither offer something significant nor did it minimize the improtance of the origin. Because if they wanted to avoid the origin... well, avoid it. All the montage did was to make me wonder why is Bruce a fugitive if Ross ran into him at the hospital.

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They took precautions in case something happened, and then did nothing. Totally stupid and lazily written. Also, Ross I don't feel would put his country at risk so his son could give his dad a hug, essentially (not trying to sound ruse or anything, but from a writer's perspective, that is how it looks to me). Not this version of Ross, at least. Yes, the character was doing something humanitarian, but it completely contradicted his character, IMO.

Ross may feel fault for what David did, and that is why he wants him so bad. However, the way Bruce has been screwed up I don't feel he ever felt was his fault, so why is he atoning for that? He wrote Bruce off as collateral damage, and then saw how his father messed him up. Why does he need atonement for that? Ross has no reason to give his dad what he wanted. The second he is in the army's custody, I feel he just says SEE YA! Takes him to prison (since he didn't know about his powers). Logically, that makes more since given how Ross was portrayed.
As AVEITWITHJAMON said, David turned himself in under those conditions and Ross accepted. When a man surrenders and only asks for one thing one tends to give it.

Of course he didn't know David was the absorbing man.

Ross was portrayed a rough man but not one that would promise something and bthen just ignore his own word.

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As far as why Ross can't hold his daughter in TIH, we see dumb things like that in many action movies, so I guess it is something I have grown numb to over the years. It's a writing cliche' that everyone uses, so I still feel Ang's film makes the larger mistake here.
Waitasec. So when the same kind of thing happens in the movie you like it's unimportant? Come on.

In both cases the writers did that just to put the characters where they needed them to be. At least in Hulk they bothered to have an excuse for it. In TIH Ross was just a sloppy military man in spite of being so rough. I don't see more ewxcuse to risk a hulk-out than to risk the very life of his daughter just because he forgot to keep her at his side.












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Why would he honor that deal?
Because he's a man of his word? A soldier who knows the meaning of honor?

Really not very out there.

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The man blew up a gamma bomb, experimented on people, including his son and made him a rage monster!
Nothing of which he can really do again chained and cuffed, can he?

As I said, Ross didn't know he had super-powers, so David Banner didn't mean danger.

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Once again, Ross ALLOWING that meeting is completely and utterly stupid on all level. It's a major plot point that bugs me everytime I watch it.
If it bothers you, okay. But it's perfectly explained in the movie. It only fails when Bruce looks furious and he doesn't do anything immediately to separate them.

Let's just say that if he were TIH's Ross, he would have probably let Betty go and put herself right in the middle of both of them.

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Old 04-13-2012, 09:31 PM   #354
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Default Re: TIH vs. Ang Lee's Hulk

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I'd agree if there were some significant enlightening flashbacks. But it did neither offer something significant nor did it minimize the improtance of the origin. Because if they wanted to avoid the origin... well, avoid it. All the montage did was to make me wonder why is Bruce a fugitive if Ross ran into him at the hospital.



As AVEITWITHJAMON said, David turned himself in under those conditions and Ross accepted. When a man surrenders and only asks for one thing one tends to give it.

Of course he didn't know David was the absorbing man.

Ross was portrayed a rough man but not one that would promise something and bthen just ignore his own word.



Waitasec. So when the same kind of thing happens in the movie you like it's unimportant? Come on.

In both cases the writers did that just to put the characters where they needed them to be. At least in Hulk they bothered to have an excuse for it. In TIH Ross was just a sloppy military man in spite of being so rough. I don't see more ewxcuse to risk a hulk-out than to risk the very life of his daughter just because he forgot to keep her at his side.














Because he's a man of his word? A soldier who knows the meaning of honor?

Really not very out there.



Nothing of which he can really do again chained and cuffed, can he?

As I said, Ross didn't know he had super-powers, so David Banner didn't mean danger.



If it bothers you, okay. But it's perfectly explained in the movie. It only fails when Bruce looks furious and he doesn't do anything immediately to separate them.

Let's just say that if he were TIH's Ross, he would have probably let Betty go and put herself right in the middle of both of them.
To summariz on all points, yes...the quick things in TIH are examples of lazy writing. But, we see this kind of stuff all the time, and these don't really effect the character arcs of the film in a big way. I let them slide. While it may be explained why Ross does it in the movie, that doesn't mean the explanation is not stupid. It just means they merely explained it, which I never said they didn't. I said the entire thing makes no sense when you break it down, and it honestly doesn't. I don't see why Ross should feel any sympathy for David Banner, and some people's last requests are not honored or would not be honored. I feel it is unrealistic, lazy, and an excuse for the climax to happen as it does. It doesn't work as a scene, however.

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Old 04-13-2012, 10:14 PM   #355
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Default Re: TIH vs. Ang Lee's Hulk

The Incredible Hulk was great, Ang Lee's Hulk not so much.

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Old 04-14-2012, 09:28 AM   #356
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Default Re: TIH vs. Ang Lee's Hulk

Ang Lee's Hulk is...unique. And because it is unique, the world will not tolerate its existence.

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Old 04-14-2012, 11:36 AM   #357
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^ I see what you did there!!

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Old 04-14-2012, 07:09 PM   #358
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Default Re: TIH vs. Ang Lee's Hulk

I will never understand why people say The Hulk is a bad film just because it didn't perform good enough at the box office.
Had it been a huge success, the very same film, I guess the opinions would be different.

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Old 04-14-2012, 07:15 PM   #359
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Default Re: TIH vs. Ang Lee's Hulk

Yup. Money talks.

I hated Hulk when it first came out, but over the years it has grown on me. Tweak things like the Hulks design, his proposterous size and cut down a bit of the psycho babble and you have a solid movie.

My biggest issue with TIH was that Norton was just Norton, and not Banner.

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Old 04-14-2012, 09:42 PM   #360
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Default Re: TIH vs. Ang Lee's Hulk

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I will never understand why people say The Hulk is a bad film just because it didn't perform good enough at the box office.
Had it been a huge success, the very same film, I guess the opinions would be different.
It's a tricky argument. Because if it had made more then it'd probably be a different movie to start with.

But we've all seen terrible movies making loads of money and well, if money is the measure TIH and Hulk made about the same numbers.

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Old 04-14-2012, 10:37 PM   #361
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Ang Lee's Hulk was really good with the emotional side of the story. Not just the family backstory, but the Ross family and their connections (positive and negative) to Banner.

There were a few problems though. #1 The CGI on The Green Meanie...absolute and utter crap. Even the transformation was terrible. #2 The villain...while a great attempt to simplify the script by combining father-pathos and evil guy...but the actual visual for the end boss was just too amorphous for Western audiences, I think.

TIH was pretty damn great to me. I think audiences weren't ready for a "modern" Hulk...aka the Keown visual version. And there was little to no "Hulk speak", which was a complete let down. I'm not sure how you'd add more Hulk dialog to that script, but it needed it.

And the Avengers Hulk is the perfect retooling. We get a Sal Buscema Hulk...with enough Hulk speak and a retro feel.

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Old 04-14-2012, 11:07 PM   #362
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Default Re: TIH vs. Ang Lee's Hulk

Avengers Hulk is gonna be the best and it isn't going to be close.

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Old 04-15-2012, 10:14 AM   #363
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Default Re: TIH vs. Ang Lee's Hulk

I acknowledge both Hulk movies have merits. TIH wasn't *bad*. I just happen to like 2003 better, for the things it did well.

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Old 04-15-2012, 10:48 AM   #364
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Both the Hulk films are a more serious kind of superhero films. But while the first was more of a psychological drama, the second focused more on the action elements.

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Old 04-15-2012, 03:40 PM   #365
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I agree. It's kind of interesting that they were "more serious" and yet still they each had failings that the other one (2003 and 2008) didn't which ended up in mediocre success.

2003
Pros:
Decent publicity money
Fresh movie take on the character
Adult subtext / Didn't insult the audience

Cons:
Terrible Hulk CGI
Not enough action
Amorphous villain
Crudly simplified Dad + villain (and corporate bad guy to boot)
Not enough Hulk speak.

2008

Pros:
Better actors
More action
MUCH better CGI
Better developed villain
More pointed ending

Cons:
Not nearly enough promotion
CGI might have been too stylized
Still not enough Hulk speak.

The Avengers' Hulk looks to be on point for all the pros and none of the cons. I don't want to jinx it, but I'm cautiously optimistic, especially after all the tweets.

(Of course my conspiracy theory is that Marvel knew that the Hulk could be a severe weak point and they (either directly or indirectly) made sure to convince reviewers "these are not the droids you're looking for" regarding a Hulk wreck.)

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Old 04-16-2012, 09:27 AM   #366
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Default Re: TIH vs. Ang Lee's Hulk

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Why would he honor that deal? The man blew up a gamma bomb, experimented on people, including his son and made him a rage monster! Once again, Ross ALLOWING that meeting is completely and utterly stupid on all level. It's a major plot point that bugs me everytime I watch it.
Ross gave his word for one, secondly David had served his time for all of those things and as far as Ross knew hadnt done anything since his release to go to prison for, he was only implicated in the dog incident. Not to mention, when David says he'll turn himself in "peacefully," that indicates should he not get his wish something would happen, for all Ross knew David had a bomb somewere waiting to go off in a populated area. Or David could have hurt Betty while he was in her house had Ross not agreed, he could have had anything up his sleave.

There is also the fact that having Betty there was a way of keeping Bruce in line, as Ross had seen in the previous scene that she calms him down, also, look at all the precautions they took, yes Bruce was getting mad during the scene but he didnt start changing, WHEN he did start changing they tried to do something but again knew nothing of David's powers at that point, and so couldnt predict what would happen. I personally dont see any problem with the scene.

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Old 04-16-2012, 09:57 AM   #367
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Default Re: TIH vs. Ang Lee's Hulk

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Ross gave his word for one, secondly David had served his time for all of those things and as far as Ross knew hadnt done anything since his release to go to prison for, he was only implicated in the dog incident. Not to mention, when David says he'll turn himself in "peacefully," that indicates should he not get his wish something would happen, for all Ross knew David had a bomb somewere waiting to go off in a populated area. Or David could have hurt Betty while he was in her house had Ross not agreed, he could have had anything up his sleave.

There is also the fact that having Betty there was a way of keeping Bruce in line, as Ross had seen in the previous scene that she calms him down, also, look at all the precautions they took, yes Bruce was getting mad during the scene but he didnt start changing, WHEN he did start changing they tried to do something but again knew nothing of David's powers at that point, and so couldnt predict what would happen. I personally dont see any problem with the scene.
Maybe I haven't seen this movie in a while, but I never remember Ross stating worries about more bombs and such. You're writing in concerns and such that were never stated in the movie. If you have to justify a character's motivation by adding things, then they did a poor job explaining his actions. Also, way before they did ANYTHING, David said he wanted to see his REAL son. At that moment...ZAP!!!! That would have been better than letting him yell at him for 20 mins.

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Old 04-16-2012, 10:06 AM   #368
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Default Re: TIH vs. Ang Lee's Hulk

Both are a mixed bag. The Ang Lee version suffers from dragging on way too long, poorly handled action sequences and dated CGI. The MCU version suffers from mixed performances, dull writing and a weak villain. I prefer the drama and tension in Lee's version, but the MCU one manages to carry itself at a fairly breezy pace and while the Hulk seems a little dwarfish (in quality, not size) now that we've seen The Avengers' Hulk, I feel like the intentionally darkly-shot action scenes did a good job to hide the character better. Honestly I prefer TIH mainly due to the fact that tying into the MCU helps give it a greater purpose while Lee's version collects dust. They're almost on par as far as quality goes, though I might give TIH more credit for being a better-edited film.

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Old 04-16-2012, 10:11 AM   #369
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Maybe I haven't seen this movie in a while, but I never remember Ross stating worries about more bombs and such. You're writing in concerns and such that were never stated in the movie. If you have to justify a character's motivation by adding things, then they did a poor job explaining his actions. Also, way before they did ANYTHING, David said he wanted to see his REAL son. At that moment...ZAP!!!! That would have been better than letting him yell at him for 20 mins.
No, Ross didnt state such things, but he knew what David was capable of from his past actions, who knows what David could have done if Ross didnt keep his end of the bargain, this didnt need explaining to me as it was obvious, hence why David said he would turn himself in peacefully IF, IF, Ross let him see his Son one last time.

As for what David said to Bruce, you forget, Bruce had earlier shown the ability to consciously stop himself from turning into the Hulk in the gamma base, until they actually saw him turning, there was no need to zap them.

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Old 04-17-2012, 12:34 AM   #370
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Old 04-17-2012, 11:28 AM   #371
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Default Re: TIH vs. Ang Lee's Hulk

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To summariz on all points, yes...the quick things in TIH are examples of lazy writing. But, we see this kind of stuff all the time,
Yeah, like in TIH.

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and these don't really effect the character arcs of the film in a big way. I let them slide.
It does affect the characters, as Ross and US soldiers are supposed to be a little more effective than having a thin girl escaping them twice in 5 minutes.

But "I let them slide" doesn't cut it. What I read from you is "If it's in TIH I let them slide, if it's in Hulk I just won't and will analize them thoroughly.

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While it may be explained why Ross does it in the movie, that doesn't mean the explanation is not stupid. It just means they merely explained it,
It is not stupid. A man has certain rights and if he's cuffed there's no danger in letting him have a last word with his son before locking him for life.

The danger is if Bruce gets angry, and they had that covered.

The other danger is him being super-powered, which Ross didn't know.

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which I never said they didn't.
You kinda did when you asked "Why on Earth would he allow him ANY time with his son?"

Yous aid that "Ross knows it won't end well." No, he doesn't. "It also makes him an idiot because he allows Bruce & David to escape." Sure, that happens, but he couldn't have predicted something like absorbing man appearing.

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I said the entire thing makes no sense when you break it down, and it honestly doesn't.
There's a sensible expolanation. But, as I said myself, I don't get why they didn't apply the fail-safe when it was obvious that Bruce was getting angry.

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I don't see why Ross should feel any sympathy for David Banner, and some people's last requests are not honored or would not be honored.
Some people's last request don't, some people's do. As long as there's no danger there's no problem. In this case the real danger was ignored as it couldn't have been foreseen.

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I feel it is unrealistic, lazy, and an excuse for the climax to happen as it does. It doesn't work as a scene, however.
It's a problem when we talk about realistic in a movie abouit how gamma rays makes you a green giant. But it'd not unrealistic to see a man's last request being heard.

But TIH's incoherences don't stop there with Betty being able to escape his father and his men:

By the end of TIH Bruce Banner might have been cured, but Abomination is out there killing people. All of a sudden, Bruce thinks that a) he can control the Hulk somehow. Weird since there's nothing in the movie whatsoever that could make him think that. If anything that's wishful thinking. Not to mention, how can he control Hulk is he's supposed to be cured? But well. B) he thinks the best way to try and see if he's still the Hulk is... yes, jumping from a helicopter. That way he either turns into the Hulk or... die so the world has the gamma rays expert out of the map forever to further trying to stop Abomination.

And that doesn't stop there. Ross, aware of this decision, decides the most sensible thing to do is... yes, let the man commit suicide. Because... you see... it might work, so why shouldn't a general of the US Army allow a man kill himself just in case the Hulk could appear. No, it's not possible to have him land and try if he can bring out the Hulk without risking his life. Out of the question.

On the other hand, Banner is not even sure about it (he's not even sure if he can still turn into the Hulk, Jesus Christ) and even when Ross doesn't trust Banner at all, he let him go.

So Ross is facing the following scenarios: he's either allowing a man kill himself or he's letting Hulk free. Tell me how any of that is realistic or in character for General Ross.

If you think Ross was stupid to allow the possibility of releasing the Hulk in Ang's movie, here he's 100% sure of it. That, or he's allowing a man commit suicide. Not to mention that he allowed - once again - Betty to put herself in danger and run to the open door of the helicopter with a man he doesn't trust.

Tell me how is that any less stupid, unrealistic, lazy writing, all for the sake of the climax. Tell me how can anyone "slide" that because it's a loveable cliché.


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Old 04-17-2012, 12:16 PM   #372
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Default Re: TIH vs. Ang Lee's Hulk

TIH is a lot more fun. Ang Lee's feels like a filler episode from the animated series. Also the directing wasn't very dynamic (which is odd because Ang Lee is a pretty good director) and the editing style didn't sit right with me.

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Old 04-21-2012, 08:44 PM   #373
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Default Re: TIH vs. Ang Lee's Hulk

I LOVE that there are two wildly divergent Hulk films. I'd much rather this than two similar ones.

Let's imagine Hulk was a success back in 2003. We'd have got another movie - which we did anyway, albeit a bit later, in 2008 - and probably a third. I'd debate whether it would have got to a fourth anyway, so I'd argue we got two Hulk movies out of a potential three anyway. And surely the third is a worthy sacrifice for Avengers? It was only because Ang Lee's movie failed that Marvel got the character back in the first place.

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There is no Marvel/DC rivalry. Most of the great comic creators worked for both; Jack Kirby, Frank Miller, Grant Morrison, Walt Simonsen, Gil Kane, Steve Ditko, John Byrne, Steve Englehart, Mark Waid...even Stan Lee.
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Old 04-22-2012, 04:04 AM   #374
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Default Re: TIH vs. Ang Lee's Hulk

The Incredible Hulk ***hands down***

I enjoyed it a lot compare to the 2003 film.

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Old 04-22-2012, 06:12 AM   #375
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Default Re: Bixby vs Bana vs Norton vs Ruffalo

From EMPIRE:
The Changing Faces Of The Hulk
We examine the screen incarnations of Bruce Banner’s rage monster…
Quote:
Hulk is on his third big-screen outing in less than a decade, and his fourth major incarnation overall. Each time, his design has been tweaked and altered, even though he always looks more-or-less like a giant angry green man. As Avengers Assemble inches ever closer to release, here’s a spotter’s guide to the many screen Hulks, so you’ll be able to distinguish them all at a glance.
From Newsarama:
INCREDIBLE HULK Annotations - Green Goliath to Marvel Movies


INCREDIBLE HULK Annotations - Green Goliath part 2

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