Buffy the Vampire Slayer and Angel the Vampire - Part 2

[Matt Mortem]

Originally Posted by hopefuldreamer

Just curious, did you still hate him in season 5?

yeah. I hate Kartheiser in Mad Men. I just don't like that actor.

[TheCorpulent1]

I didn't really have a problem with Justine either. Both her and Connor were pretty miserable d-bags for a while, but that characterization made sense in both cases and benefited the story.

I am, however, developing a pretty strong, seething hatred for Whistler in the Angel & Faith comic now. I'm kind of glad we wound up with Doyle in the show because if Whistler was supposed to be like he is now in the show, I might not have made it too far into the show.

[flickchick85]

Originally Posted by hopefuldreamer

He was raised in a hell dimension by a psychopath driven by revenge.

I find the notion that him being an angry, irrational, bitter, neurotic mess is somehow bad writing kind of funny

I mean, do people really think he should have come out consistently likeable?

That's what I'm saying, I think the writing for the character is kind of fascinating. It's the delivery where it falls apart. It seemed like the writers were trying to write a angry, confused teenager who is teetering on the edge of being a sociopath, and finding it impossible to trust anyone he meets. But Kartheiser delivered his lines as a generically spiteful kid, like he just hates Dad because he wouldn't let him go on spring break or something. Not half the depth or ambiguity I think the writers intended for there to be. I just never bought his delivery as anything other than an actor reading lines with little context.

Then there's what I feel was physical miscasting - I wouldn't think a kid raised in a hell dimension would be so...soft and effeminate-looking.

Again, I love him on Mad Men, I just think he was the completely wrong choice for Connor.

[hopefuldreamer]

Originally Posted by Matt Mortem

yeah. I hate Kartheiser in Mad Men. I just don't like that actor.

That's fair enough I haven't really seen him in anything else, except briefly in 'In Time' and that seemed like really odd casting.

Originally Posted by TheCorpulent1

I didn't really have a problem with Justine either. Both her and Connor were pretty miserable d-bags for a while, but that characterization made sense in both cases and benefited the story.

I agree.

There were things about Connor I loved. I loved his first episode 'A New World'. The whole concept of how he would react to this world as if it was another hell dimension, because he was exposed straight away to the darkest sides of life, was just really sad.

Also, while I hated the whole Cordy baby thing as much as everyone else, I thought he was amazing in 'Inside Out' when he was talking to Darla's 'ghost' and again in 'Peace Out' with Cordy's body.

I also love him in season 5. I wish they'd had time to explore the new him a bit more, with both old and new memories.

(and no, I don't read the comics. i'm much too scared they will ruin things )

[hopefuldreamer]

Originally Posted by flickchick85

That's what I'm saying, I think the writing for the character is kind of fascinating. It's the delivery where it falls apart. It seemed like the writers were trying to write a angry, confused teenager who is teetering on the edge of being a sociopath, and finding it impossible to trust anyone he meets. But Kartheiser delivered his lines as a generically spiteful kid, like he just hates Dad because he would let him go on spring break or something. Not half the depth or ambiguity I think the writers intended for there to be. I just never bought his delivery as anything other than an actor reading lines with little context.

Then there's what I feel was physical miscasting - I wouldn't think a kid raised in a hell dimension would be so...soft and effeminate-looking.

Again, I love him on Mad Men, I just think he was the completely wrong choice for Connor.

Actually yeah that's all fair, and I see what you mean. Like I said, there are a few moments I thought he performed well, but a lot of the time he did come across like a spoiled brat, despite the audience logically knowing he has every reason to be angry.

[The Question]

I didn't hate the Cordy baby thing at all. Once we found out that Cordy was being possessed none of the oedipal stuff bothered me anymore. Connor's screwed up and Cordy's not in the driver's seat right now.

On an unrelated note, a thought just struck me: With all the talk made about Giles and Faith and Spike spin offs, none of which seem likely to happen at this point, it seems to me that an unexplored idea for a new Buffyverse installment would be a spin off about Los Hermanos Numero set in the 40s.

I don't know, maybe I'm just weird, but I think a period show about a team of crime fighting, vampire hunting Luchadores super heroes is an awesome idea, and you wouldn't have to worry about schedules 'cause it would be a brand new cast.

Their arc enemy could be El Diablo Robotico, the robot that the Devil built.

[hopefuldreamer]

Meh, sorry but that was one of my least favourite episodes...

[The Question]

Originally Posted by hopefuldreamer

Meh, sorry but that was one of my least favourite episodes...

Dude.

El Diablo Robotico.

Come on.

Besides, episode aside, the concept's got potential.

[Havok83]

Originally Posted by O'Haire

To me that honor goes to Justine. Just the sight of her made me want to magically jump into the TV and strangle her.

who was that? I dont recall a Justine

[hopefuldreamer]

Originally Posted by The Question

Dude.

El Diablo Robotico.

Come on.

Besides, episode aside, the concept's got potential.

[Specter313]

Originally Posted by Havok83

who was that? I dont recall a Justine

The redhead that was Holtz's first recruit into that vampire hating gang that he formed to take on Angel.

[TheCorpulent1]

Originally Posted by hopefuldreamer

That's fair enough I haven't really seen him in anything else, except briefly in 'In Time' and that seemed like really odd casting.



I agree.

There were things about Connor I loved. I loved his first episode 'A New World'. The whole concept of how he would react to this world as if it was another hell dimension, because he was exposed straight away to the darkest sides of life, was just really sad.

Also, while I hated the whole Cordy baby thing as much as everyone else, I thought he was amazing in 'Inside Out' when he was talking to Darla's 'ghost' and again in 'Peace Out' with Cordy's body.

I also love him in season 5. I wish they'd had time to explore the new him a bit more, with both old and new memories.

(and no, I don't read the comics. i'm much too scared they will ruin things )

Unfortunately, your fear was pretty justified. Connor was one of the very, very few good things about the IDW comics. Angel & Faith has been pretty good so far, though.

[hopefuldreamer]

Originally Posted by TheCorpulent1

Unfortunately, your fear was pretty justified. Connor was one of the very, very few good things about the IDW comics. Angel & Faith has been pretty good so far, though.

I may get around to it one day, I dunno. It was the same with the Buffy ones too. I read the first few, and it just felt like... wrong.

I dunno, there is just something so 'finished' about both series and the way they ended. Especially Buffy, that ending was absolutely perfect.

I know there would have been plenty more for Angel if it hadn't been cancelled, but I doubt the show would have gone the same direction as the comics have.

[TheCorpulent1]

Same. The comics have unfortunately stripped Angel down to just Angel himself at this point, with Faith along for her own reasons. He's never really gotten back to the formula that worked so well for the show, of having Angel lead a small group of equally compelling characters who all evolve and grow together. I was really hoping we'd get to see Wesley stick around as a ghost or something, bring Kate back, have Connor join up, etc. The characters are still around, but they just refuse to bring them together and embrace what made the show so good.

[Marvolo]

Originally Posted by Havok83

Conner was one of the worst character created in the Angelverse

God yes! I can't stand that little ****. He's one reason I may not rewatch the show. That being said, towards the end of season 5 I began to like him. Too little too late, tho. He was just too much of an immature selfish little ****bag throughout the show for me to ever like him.

[Sawyer]

Mind-wiped/rewritten history Connor is fine. Actual Connor was a little *****.

[The Question]

I've never understood the desire for fictional characters to be likable in a real world sense. I mean, yeah, if I knew Connor personally I wouldn't like him. But I don't. He's a character on TV.

[Lord]

Originally Posted by The Question

I've never understood the desire for fictional characters to be likable in a real world sense. I mean, yeah, if I knew Connor personally I wouldn't like him. But I don't. He's a character on TV.

That doesn't really matter, if the Joker was real he wouldn't be loved like he is, but people still love him as a fictional character. Connor's personality makes him annoying to watch, i actually stoped disliking him after season 4

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:

because he stoped being a douche and started thinking with his head, it was basically because of that wish made by Angel for him to forget and live a normal life.

[Marvolo]

Originally Posted by The Question

I've never understood the desire for fictional characters to be likable in a real world sense. I mean, yeah, if I knew Connor personally I wouldn't like him. But I don't. He's a character on TV.

I don't like to watch or have to listen to annoying people say dumb things and do dumb selfish things in real life. Why should it suddenly become less annoying because it is on tv? Because it isnt real? The story and setting maybe. But the actions and emotions are real whether it is in a fictional or non fictional setting. You root for characters dont you? You root against the bad guys? You feel something when one dies dont you? Why is being annoyed by a character any less valid? It is equally as valid and that is why i like my characters likable. I can tolerate grey areas and flaws but not constantly. Conner was too much for too long.

[TheCorpulent1]

Because on TV it usually serves a plot-related purpose. Connor was annoying, but it was thoroughly understandable why he was annoying, and his increasingly off-the-rails behavior served to push Angel toward his actions at the end of season 4, resulting in a huge character moment for Angel. It made sense and served a purpose in the context of the narrative, which is really all you can ask for from a fictional character. I mean, I understand not liking him--that's fine--but I don't understand the people who are so filled with rage that the show had the audacity to foist this criminally irritating nuisance on them that they quit watching it altogether or refuse to watch it again even though they enjoy everything else.

[Specter313]

Sad news for Buffy fans:

Robin Sachs, who was best known for playing sorcerer Ethan Rayne, the arch nemesis of Giles on Buffy the Vampire Slayer, has died, according to his official website. He was 61.

It is unknown what caused Sachs' death. "It is with great sadness that we have to announce the sudden and unexpected passing of Robin Sachs," a statement on his website said. "Please join us in raising a glass to Robin — goodbye, dear friend. Thank you for all the laughter and the cookies. We will miss you so very much."

The London-born actor got his start in the 1972 British film Vampire Circus. In 1991, he took on the role Adam Carrington in the Dynasty: The Reunion miniseries when original star Gordon Thomson was unavailable.

Sachs enjoyed steady work in several sci-fi TV series including Babylon 5, Star Trek: Voyager, Torchwood: Miracle Day and Buffy the Vampire Slayer, on which he recurred from 1997-2000. He also played the evil General Sarris in the sci-fi spoof movie Galaxy Quest.

In addition to his voiceover work on animated movies and video games, Sachs most recently guest-starred on NCIS as an MI5 inspector.

http://www.tvguide.com/News/Robin-Sa...s-1060419.aspx

[flickchick85]

RIP.

I always enjoyed his appearances on Buffy. Ethan was a such a fun foil for Giles and the gang.

[Eklypze]

RIP. Can't remember him from B5 and damn can't believe he was Sarris. Crazy. Sad sad news

[Charlie Boy]

Bummer

[hopefuldreamer]

rip