The TDKR General Discussion & Speculation Thread - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 42

[Godmaul]

Originally Posted by Anita18

Why doesn't "Why not?" answer the question of why Joker wanted to kill Dent?

BECAUSE!


Yeah...I've got nuthin'.

[Miranda Fox]

Originally Posted by Anita18

Why doesn't "Why not?" answer the question of why Joker wanted to kill Dent?

Because everything MUST be explained. Nevermind that if it were, people would then piss and moan that Nolan is treating them like idiots...

I really feel like this is bordering on "How does superman go faster? Does he just... switch gears?"

Yup.

Everything about the Joker is inexplicable in TDK - he is written that way *deliberately*. If that had not been the case, I'd say that the questions raised over his abilities to pull off things that should (and would in our world) be impossible as legitimate (although if one started down that road, one would also have to chastise film makers like David Fincher. After all, John Doe's escapades in Se7en are just as impossible when you think about them) but the script points out over and over that the Joker's existance is an impossibility. The fact that there is no trace of him, anywhere, before he became the Joker states that pretty clearly.

In other words, he just IS.

[Greens]

Originally Posted by Falcone

My biggest complaint about TDK (the rest is trivial really) is something that I don't see discussed very often- why does Gordon fake his death? It adds nothing to the story other than a cheap and predictable trick. It's not like the GPD or Batman gained anything from having the Joker think this lieutenant was dead... IDK.

Overall, though, the film is the closest thing I've ever seen to a flawless film. And that is not hyperbole.

Joker takes Gordon AND his family off his target list because he thinks he's killed Gordon. Gordon works behind the scenes and reveals himself when he thinks the game is over. I don't know if his ''plan'' helped anyone but his family, but I think this was his motivation.

[MagnarTheGreat]

Originally Posted by Falcone

My biggest complaint about TDK (the rest is trivial really) is something that I don't see discussed very often- why does Gordon fake his death? It adds nothing to the story other than a cheap and predictable trick. It's not like the GPD or Batman gained anything from having the Joker think this lieutenant was dead... IDK.

Overall, though, the film is the closest thing I've ever seen to a flawless film. And that is not hyperbole.

I've been eyeing this thread waiting for someone to bring that up. No, it's never made much sense to me.

1) They knew threats were made in advance
2) Gordon planned to pretend to get shot and protect the mayor. Good thing he didn't really get killed since everything else was very much real!
3) Dent and Batman thought Gordon was dead. Dent turned himself in as Batman the next morning after Batman told him to hold a press conference. Which Gordon could not have known in advance but Gordon winds up incognito for some reason to drive Dent around town and rescue Batman at the last moment from the Joker!
4) SHOCK! Gordon faked his death, because...umm....it's convenient to the plot but as a plan it's completely idiotic.
5) SHOCK! The Joker wanted to be caught! That's what Gordon said. So, the Joker wanted to be caught by dead Gordon? What?

[Miranda Fox]

Originally Posted by MagnarTheGreat

the Joker wanted to be caught by dead Gordon? What?

There's no indication that he expected to be caught by Gordon. WTH did you get that one from?

[Falcone]

Originally Posted by Miranda Fox

Because everything MUST be explained.

Everything about the Joker is inexplicable in TDK - he is written that way *deliberately*. If that had not been the case, I'd say that the questions raised over his abilities to pull off things that should (and would in our world) be impossible as legitimate (although if one started down that road, one would also have to chastise film makers like David Fincher. After all, John Doe's escapades in Se7en are just as impossible when you think about them) but the script points out over and over that the Joker's existance is an impossibility. The fact that there is no trace of him, anywhere, before he became the Joker states that pretty clearly.

In other words, he just IS.

I like where you're going with this, but I essentially disagree. A lot of the things I think you think are impossible are not only possible, but probable.

Not being traced is easy. Assuming Joker had never been committed to an institution, there's no reason for him to have prints in the GPD's records. Custom clothing is expensive, but was worth the price of not getting caught. Remember his motivation is anarchy. Money means nothing to him.

Also, loading gasoline into ferries I imagine would be pretty routine. Rigging them to blow only would take a few minutes with one or two dudes at your disposal. Remember, 10 Saudis killed 3000 with a couple of makeshift knives and faux plastic explosives.

The important thing is the first time everyone watched the movie, no one was saying, "Wait, wait, wait. How did they get those gas tanks on that boat?" People were on the edge of their seats, wondering if the prisoners or the lay people would press the button. When you left, you were wondering if pressing the button would do anything at all.

It's until time passes and the film is critically acclaimed do people want to dissect and feel self-worth for having "illegitimized" a movie that should be put in the books as a classic.

[The Joker]

Originally Posted by filmboy33

Man, since I have been gone I see we are going around and around on the same argument. I figure I should weight in on this as well.

Here is the definition of plot hole: A plot hole, or plothole, is a gap or inconsistency in a storyline that goes against the flow of logic established by the story's plot, or constitutes a blatant omission of relevant information regarding the plot.

The things that are being discussed as plot holes, i.e. the how of the Joker's plans, are not plot holes by the above definition. How Joker set up the explosives on the ferries is not relevant information regarding the plot of TDK. The why he set up the explosives is and that is answered in the course of the plot of the film.

The logic established within the TDK is that the Joker can outsmart the police department, the mob, and even The World's Greatest Detective, Batman. So with that in mind, is it out of the realm of possibility that Joker is smart enough to get explosives on the ferries without detection? Or that he could plot both his escape from Gordon's holding cells and also Dent's and Rachel's capture?

The other logic that the film makes clear here is that the Joker had help with his plans. He had the entirety of the mob's connections and manpower at his control. With a network as large as that, there is pretty much nothing the Joker could not have had done in Gotham.

Once the film establishes those two points, all of the Joker's plans make sense and seem possible. With films there is always some suspension of disbelief as they are not meant to be a literal 1 to 1 representation of our world. So, I will grant if looked at outside of the logic the film sets up the Joker's actions seem rather difficult to achieve.

But again within the logic of the film it all makes sense, therefore no plot holes.

As far as this dark and gritty argument. Nolan was not the first to make a dark and gritty film and I am sure he will not be the last. What makes the TDK stand out from other superhero films is the quality of it. It is not the fact that is is dark and gritty. But rather it is that it is a serious work of drama with fleshed out characters with real motivations and a completely realized world that mirrors our own.

You see Nolan made Batman and his world as real as possible within the confines of that universe. He made Gotham a city that could really exist. Gotham had to deal with the same problems many major metropolises face: crime, corruption, organized crime, and general public safety. He gave us a public figure in Harvey Dent not much different than the district attorneys that work in cities like New York, Chicago, etc.

But most importantly, what happens in the TDK matters. The events in the film have long lasting effects on the characters and in some cases cause great physical, mental, and emotional harm to them. There are stakes in TDK, people die, the Joker's actions change things. Many of these events will carry over into TDKR and continue to cause pain to many of the characters, most prominently Bruce.

"Dark and Gritty" is not what makes TDK special, it is the exceptional story it tells. It is not just a great Batman story, but a great overall story. It is not cartoony, it is not bombastic, it is not hyperkinetic. No it is a great crime film that happens to have a main character who dresses like a bat in it.

With that said, I don't think every film should aim to be TDK 2.0. Case in point: The Amazing Spiderman. Spiderman is not Batman, he does not need an elaborate backstory filled with secrets. He does need to be brooding and emotionally conflicted. What is wrong with him simply being the Peter Parker of the comics. Why can't he simply be an orphan, taken in by his father's brother, Ben, and raised as their son? Why can't he be a nerd in school who is picked on by the other kids? Why can't he be upbeat and wisecracking, instead of being emotional complicated?

Not every film needs to be TDK. I think a film should always try and be true to its origins (if based on a book or comic book), be true to its characters, and be true to what made it popular and beloved in the first place.

TDK is a film that remains true to what makes Batman and his universe so popular and beloved. That is why it is regarded as it is.

This post is a thing of beauty and a joy forever.

[Boom]

Originally Posted by Falcone

It's until time passes and the film is critically acclaimed do people want to dissect and feel self-worth for having "illegitimized" a movie that should be put in the books as a classic.

Yeah. That's exactly what I'm doing .

Look. The film's been out nearly four years. During that time, I had to have watched it 50+ times. When you watch a film over and over again after so many years, you start to notice things that you didn't think twice about on opening night. I do, anyway.

This movie is far from perfect. It's damn good for what it is, and it's one of my favorite movies. So don't take my nitpicking and over-thinking as me trying to illegitimate the film. It is what it is: arguably the best live-action Batman movie we've ever had. However, I think certain aspects of the story could have been tighter, including a number of The Joker's schemes (thus making it an even better movie). That's just my two cents.

[Kane52630]

I've seen The Dark Knight so many times that I actually got sick and tried of seeing it. I don't think I've watched The Dark Knight since my Batman movie marathon months ago but before that it's been a good full year.

[MagnarTheGreat]

Originally Posted by Miranda Fox

There's no indication that he expected to be caught by Gordon. WTH did you get that one from?

"The Joker planned to be caught. He wanted me to lock him up in M.C.U.."

Which leads down the path of, who inside MCU tattled that Gordon wasn't really dead? And for someone who was planning to get caught, he sure didn't act like it before he was actually caught. So many plot conveniences, so little time...

Though I will say in the context of the film I think Gordon's "death" and the sad little manipulative music that plays is ok. But out of context of the movie, it gives me pause.

I hope there's not too much of this in TDKR.

[The Joker]

Originally Posted by MagnarTheGreat

"The Joker planned to be caught. He wanted me to lock him up in M.C.U.."

Which leads down the path of, who inside MCU tattled that Gordon wasn't really dead? And for someone who was planning to get caught, he sure didn't act like it before he was actually caught. So many plot conveniences, so little time...

Though I will say in the context of the film I think Gordon's "death" and the sad little manipulative music that plays is ok. But out of context of the movie, it gives me pause.

Gordon meant after he arrested Joker that Joker wanted him to put him in the MCU. He didn't mean Joker always planned it to be Gordon to be the one to do it.

What difference would it make who put him in the MCU as long as he was put there.

You've taken that line completely out of context.

[Anita18]

Originally Posted by MagnarTheGreat

"The Joker planned to be caught. He wanted me to lock him up in M.C.U.."

Which leads down the path of, who inside MCU tattled that Gordon wasn't really dead? And for someone who was planning to get caught, he sure didn't act like it before he was actually caught. So many plot conveniences, so little time...

Though I will say in the context of the film I think Gordon's "death" and the sad little manipulative music that plays is ok. But out of context of the movie, it gives me pause.

I hope there's not too much of this in TDKR.

I don't think Gordon knows for sure whether Joker knew he was faking his death. Joker certainly wouldn't care WHO locked him up in the MCU as long as they put him there...and it was pretty obvious that had he been caught, he would have been locked up in there, with Lau. Which was something he certainly took advantage of.

[Greens]

Damn, I can't find a video of the scene right before Joker crashes the party. I love the part where Surillo and Loeb get killed.

[RachelDawes]

Originally Posted by MagnarTheGreat

I've been eyeing this thread waiting for someone to bring that up. No, it's never made much sense to me.

1) They knew threats were made in advance
2) Gordon planned to pretend to get shot and protect the mayor. Good thing he didn't really get killed since everything else was very much real!

I don't think Gordon planned to get shot. I figure he got hit in a bullet-proof vest, realized he could use this to his advantage, and played dead.

3) Dent and Batman thought Gordon was dead. Dent turned himself in as Batman the next morning after Batman told him to hold a press conference. Which Gordon could not have known in advance but Gordon winds up incognito for some reason to drive Dent around town and rescue Batman at the last moment from the Joker!

Gordon must've seen that Harvey had confessed to being Batman and took the initiative to drive him to MCU, I assume to make sure one of the Joker's goons or spies didn't get behind the wheel.

4) SHOCK! Gordon faked his death, because...umm....it's convenient to the plot but as a plan it's completely idiotic.
5) SHOCK! The Joker wanted to be caught! That's what Gordon said. So, the Joker wanted to be caught by dead Gordon? What?

He didn't want to get caught by a dead Gordon. He wanted whoever it was who was in charge of MCU to lock him up there so he could get Lau. Don't read too much into Gordon's comment.

[MagnarTheGreat]

The dialogue should have been, then, "He wanted to be locked up in MCU" not "He wanted me to lock him up in the MCU."

[Travesty]

Originally Posted by MagnarTheGreat

I've been eyeing this thread waiting for someone to bring that up. No, it's never made much sense to me.

1) They knew threats were made in advance
2) Gordon planned to pretend to get shot and protect the mayor. Good thing he didn't really get killed since everything else was very much real!
3) Dent and Batman thought Gordon was dead. Dent turned himself in as Batman the next morning after Batman told him to hold a press conference. Which Gordon could not have known in advance but Gordon winds up incognito for some reason to drive Dent around town and rescue Batman at the last moment from the Joker!
4) SHOCK! Gordon faked his death, because...umm....it's convenient to the plot but as a plan it's completely idiotic.
5) SHOCK! The Joker wanted to be caught! That's what Gordon said. So, the Joker wanted to be caught by dead Gordon? What?

I pretty much agree with you, that it was all too convenient the way it all happened, but like others have said about your last point, I don't think it mattered to The Joker who captured him.

[The Joker]

Originally Posted by MagnarTheGreat

The dialogue should have been, then, "He wanted to be locked up in MCU" not "He wanted me to lock him up in the MCU."

No offense but you're the first person I've ever seen mistake the line for that.

[RachelDawes]

Originally Posted by Boom

I wouldn't say that there are any blatant potholes in what The Joker does in the film. But some aspects of The Joker's plans do border on the ridiculous and convoluted.

For instance, when a terrorist announces a threat against civilians (presumably a bomb), I find it absolutely absurd that no one thought to check the ferries before letting hundreds of people on board. Yes, The Joker specifically made reference to tunnels and bridges, but the man has also proven to be quite the liar (or, well, jokester). This, more than anything else, is where I throw my hands up in the air and say, "Come on." This is a whole new level of ineptitude, and I cannot believe the National Guard, the police department, hell, the captain of the boat would be this stupid.

This one's easy. The Joker has corrupt cops on his side who wouldn't report the explosives, or would even plant them during an "inspection".

Now, let's take what Travesty said. When Dent is being transported, The Joker believes he is Batman. He attacks the caravan (specifically Dent's van) with automatics, shotguns, and bazookas. By all accounts, he gives a rather clear impression that he is trying to kill Dent - and therefore Batman. But when The Joker finds out that Dent isn't Batman, he elects to kidnap him instead. When did he find time to arrange this? It was clearly an orchestrated plan, but shortly after discovering Dent isn't Batman, he's apprehended.

The Joker must've planned this with his goons ahead of time. "If you hear that Dent's been killed, go with Plan A. If you hear he's alive and not Batman, go with Plan B" and so forth.

Then there's the explosion in GCPD. What the hell happened to the cops? They were in the same room as The Joker. And quite frankly, it didn't look like that blast would've killed them, or even knock them unconscious. So how did they become incapacitated, but The Joker did not? How did The Joker know he wouldn't be killed by the blast? How did he know Lau would survive? It's a pretty stupid and reckless plan.

I think the Joker braced himself behind a filing cabinet. I can only assume that the Joker worked out that Lau was far enough way that he wouldn't get killed by the blast.

As for his manner of escape, I'm assuming he had a plan in place, but simply seized the opportunity in the interrogation room with the broken glass. That doesn't bother me so much. But to tell you the truth, I think I would have preferred to see The Joker escape without improvisation.

The original plan was just to ask for and receive his phone call. When he didn't get it he fell back on taking the cop hostage. If he didn't have any glass he would've just used something else. He's a master improviser.

[TinkerTailor]

The Joker in TDK is the equivalent of the ultimate prep time Batman from the comics. Every plan is thought out meticulously, and in the event that the result doesn't come to fruition there's a back up in place that will make it seem as if it was his intention all along. That's how I view The Joker in TDK.

The only plot contrivance I have any issue with is why Gordon doesn't just take a tactical team to go and arrest The Joker after he makes his threat on the hospitals of Gotham. He's been told where he is by Maroni. Surely he could spare one team to risk it. I buy The Joker as an elemental master criminal who can plant explosives on a ferry unseen. I don't buy Gordon as an incompetent cop.

[Figs]

Originally Posted by RachelDawes

This one's easy. The Joker has corrupt cops on his side who wouldn't report the explosives, or would even plant them during an "inspection".


The Joker must've planned this with his goons ahead of time. "If you hear that Dent's been killed, go with Plan A. If you hear he's alive and not Batman, go with Plan B" and so forth.


The original plan was just to ask for and receive his phone call. When he didn't get it he fell back on taking the cop hostage. If he didn't have any glass he would've just used something else. He's a master improviser.

I've said just about the same thing in the past in the old TDK days, especially the corrupt cops...since you know, Gotham is supposed to be one of the most corrupt cities.

It cracks me up because people *****ed and moaned about too much exposition in BB, and in TDK when they decide not to explain every little detail people start to ***** about that.

[PowerPacked]

I read the words MCU and immediately thought Marvel Cinematic Universe.

Now THAT would be insanely interesting.

[Travesty]

Originally Posted by RachelDawes

I think the Joker braced himself behind a filing cabinet. I can only assume that the Joker worked out that Lau was far enough way that he wouldn't get killed by the blast.

No, he just stood there. Even the cops that were in front of him(farther away from the blast) also went down. Not only that, but everybody in their cells were knocked out/killed, except for Lau.

The original plan was just to ask for and receive his phone call. When he didn't get it he fell back on taking the cop hostage. If he didn't have any glass he would've just used something else. He's a master improviser.

This still doesn't make sense. So what if he got the phone call in the prison cell? What, would he just have used the explosives to kill/knock everybody out while he stays in the cell?

And how did he know that someone would be watching him from inside the cell, so that he could get out? Before that, everybody was watching him from behind the glass, now it's just convenient that there is only one unarmed guard, which just so happens to be watching him from inside the cell.

These are just obvious conveniences to the plot that are pretty ridiculous. It's just like The Joker's gun in B89. Not only can't Batman shoot The Joker when he's on target, but the first chance Joker gets to shoot at the Batwing, it goes down in one shot. Did Batman only think to make the Batmobile bulletproof, while negating the Batwing? Or is this just some ridiculous convenience to the plot to keep it moving along?

Originally Posted by Figs

I've said just about the same thing in the past in the old TDK days, especially the corrupt cops...since you know, Gotham is supposed to be one of the most corrupt cities.

It cracks me up because people *****ed and moaned about too much exposition in BB, and in TDK when they decide not to explain every little detail people start to ***** about that.

It really doesn't have to do with "needing exposition to explain things", it's more about having a plot that makes sense. Yeah, we know that The Joker did this or that, but nothing adds up. We don't need an explanation, we just need a better plotline.

[The Joker]

Originally Posted by TinkerTailor

The only plot contrivance I have any issue with is why Gordon doesn't just take a tactical team to go and arrest The Joker after he makes his threat on the hospitals of Gotham. He's been told where he is by Maroni. Surely he could spare one team to risk it. I buy The Joker as an elemental master criminal who can plant explosives on a ferry unseen. I don't buy Gordon as an incompetent cop.

Think about the situation. Not only did Gordon have to send his men to every hospital in Gotham for mass evacuations, but he also had to send men to protect Reese from a giant mob of angry Gothamites where attempts on his life could come from anywhere and everywhere. His resources were stretched to the limit.

He'd have been a fool to lose vital man power to send to Joker's base on the off chance that Joker was still there after making his hospital threat on public TV when so many other lives were in immediate danger.

[TinkerTailor]

Originally Posted by The Joker

Think about the situation. Not only did Gordon have to send his men to every hospital in Gotham for mass evacuations, but he also had to send men to protect Reese from a giant mob of angry Gothamites where attempts on his life could come from anywhere and everywhere. His resources were stretched to the limit.

He'd have been a fool to lose vital man power to send to Joker's base on the off chance that Joker was still there after making his hospital threat on public TV when so many other lives were in immediate danger.

Believe me, I have thought about the situation and I've weighed up the other options that you've rightfully laid out. The fact that I still disagree with the course of action Gordon took doesn't spoil my enjoyment or appreciation for the film, but I still think it was a really dumb move. Too dumb for the character to make. I just don't buy him missing the chance to catch The Joker, the remnants of the mob and Lau all in one place.

[The_Raganork]

Some of the stuff In this thread is outrageous.