The Official Flash Thread - Part 2

[protocida]

Michael Bay would be perfect for Green Lantern. Aliens, space battles, hot chicks, jets, explosions, cool effects, explosions, rock'n'roll superhero, hot chicks, explosions and the American Air Force.

He'd probably get real jets.

For The Flash, I'd go with Brad Bird.

[Panthro]

Originally Posted by protocida

Michael Bay would be perfect for Green Lantern. Aliens, space battles, hot chicks, jets, explosions, cool effects, explosions, rock'n'roll superhero, hot chicks, explosions and the American Air Force.

He'd probably get real jets.

[protocida]

I like the comics' justification for the Rogues' codenames. They sell themselves shorts in order to surprise people with their effectiveness. By example, you go ''Captain Cold? The guy that wears a parka and a knock-off Mister Freeze weapon? Pff, even I can kick that guy's butt''. And then he goes and freezes your arm off.

[gugumugats]

I agree with you about "individuals" vs. "group" and that group characterizations make the Rogues look like upgraded henchmen.

What I wouldnt mind seeing though, is giving each person in a group a two-dimensional or cardboard cutout personality the same way they do in heist films or other team-up films (like some sports films). For instance, one member is the "quiet guy," one is a tech nerd, one is a reckless wild card, one is a rookie kid that the leader takes under their wing. I think only the leader of the group needs to be further developed

[gugumugats]

Originally Posted by protocida

Michael Bay would be perfect for Green Lantern. Aliens, space battles, hot chicks, jets, explosions, cool effects, explosions, rock'n'roll superhero, hot chicks, explosions and the American Air Force.

He'd probably get real jets.

For The Flash, I'd go with Brad Bird.

HELL YEAH to both. But why does Michael Bay get so much hate?

[Panthro]

Originally Posted by gugumugats

HELL YEAH to both. But why does Michael Bay get so much hate?

He's not a good director.

[Evil Twin]

Originally Posted by gugumugats

What I wouldnt mind seeing though, is giving each person in a group a two-dimensional or cardboard cutout personality the same way they do in heist films or other team-up films (like some sports films). For instance, one member is the "quiet guy," one is a tech nerd, one is a reckless wild card, one is a rookie kid that the leader takes under their wing. I think only the leader of the group needs to be further developed

From how they're written historically, Heat Wave is the "hot head" and Captain Boomerang is the scuzzy, d-bag / comic relief as far as shorthand characterization. Which is fine for supporting characters.

[protocida]

That's your opinion, Panthro.

[protocida]

In the comics, Captain Cold is the leader, the straightforward, generally level-headed guy with some outbursts of insanity.

Mirror Master is something of Cold's right-hand man and enforcer.

Captain Boomerang is the sleezeball ''comic relief'' and chew toy.

Heatwave is the ''weird guy'', with his obssession with fire and offhand demeanor.

The original Trickster, James Jesse, is the crazy guy always making weird remarks, but generally not dangerous. Axel Walker is the psychopat who needs to be kept in check by Captain Cold.

Weather Wizard is the silent guy. The calm, mysterious badass of the team.

[DoomsdayApex]

Originally Posted by protocida

That's your opinion, Panthro.

Revenge of The Fallen, Dark of the Moon, The Island and Pearl Harbor say otherwise.

His films are alot better when he has another director keeping him in check (something that Spielberg failed to do) or in-charge of story/script.

[Savage]

I completely disagree. Michael Bay is a great director. The issues people have with these movies fall on the writers. Bay has a type of script that he gravitates to, yes, but he pretty much turns **** into gold. Imagine anybody else directing the Transformers movies. Same script, same actors, same moments (Constructicon balls and all), just without Bay's flair. Now they're not only stupid but they're boring too. At least Bay brings the spectacle that makes a 3D movie worth watching. I like the Avengers movies, I love the Batman movies, but for the raw "Wow" factor you go to Michael Bay and very few can even compete. The man is emulated often for a reason. Even in video games (Metal Gear Solid for one is BEGGING to be directed by Michael Bay and is practically an ode to him. Same with Gears of War.)

[terry78]

I just read some of Flash #6 in the store and while not a fan of the new powers, this is how Captain Cold needs to be potrayed in movie form. Just overtly frustrated at Flash hindering him from his work.

[gugumugats]

Originally Posted by terry78

I just read some of Flash #6 in the store and while not a fan of the new powers, this is how Captain Cold needs to be potrayed in movie form. Just overtly frustrated at Flash hindering him from his work.

Flash #6 was a great issue. I kind of like metahuman Captain Cold vs. gadgety Captain Cold....

If a group of Rogues were ever put to film, I'll pose the question:

Powers or gadgets??

Gadgets gives more unity since Mirror Master, Trickster, and Boomerang work better as tech-based villains rather than being metahumans. On the other hand, nothing would stop the audience from asking why the Flash just can't take the gadgets out of their hands in a split second.

[DoomsdayApex]

Originally Posted by Savage

I completely disagree. Michael Bay is a great director. The issues people have with these movies fall on the writers. Bay has a type of script that he gravitates to, yes, but he pretty much turns **** into gold. Imagine anybody else directing the Transformers movies. Same script, same actors, same moments (Constructicon balls and all), just without Bay's flair. Now they're not only stupid but they're boring too. At least Bay brings the spectacle that makes a 3D movie worth watching. I like the Avengers movies, I love the Batman movies, but for the raw "Wow" factor you go to Michael Bay and very few can even compete. The man is emulated often for a reason. Even in video games (Metal Gear Solid for one is BEGGING to be directed by Michael Bay and is practically an ode to him. Same with Gears of War.)

Riiiiight.

It's not the writers. It's Bay. Transformers was a s**tty franchise because he butchered the characters and source material, put visuals/SFX, explosions, hot women and horrid humor ahead of character development & acting, and the action itself (at times) was meaningless and dull.

Oh please, directors like JJ Abrams, Zack Snyder and Neill Blomkamp would have done a far better job with the Transformers franchise than Michael Bay.

[Savage]

Character Development - Director's job
Faithfulness to the source material - Director's job
Lines that result in horrid humor - Director's job

What do writers do again? Print out a synopsis for the director to run with? If that's the case then Christopher Nolan really is the sole reason that The Batman movies are successful.

The directors play an important role but there is only so much that can fall on their shoulders. If you want to say the visuals suck or that the actors were terribly directed or the pacing was terrible because of the editing then fine but almost every problem you raised was there before Bay read the script.

Also I completely disagree on those directors being able to make better Transformers movies. They'd come close but few people out there have an eye for action the way that Bay does. Star Trek had good action sequences but none of them compare to the highway fight in Dark of The Moon. Or just about anything involving Shockwave. Also I doubt JJ Abrams would be able to fix the problems the Transformers movies have without firing and rehiring new writers. Blame the writers for the failings of the Transformers movies. I'll agree with you there. Bay is not nearly as culpable as everybody makes him out to be.

[gugumugats]

Originally Posted by DoomsdayApex

Riiiiight.

It's not the writers. It's Bay. Transformers was a s**tty franchise because he butchered the characters and source material, put visuals/SFX, explosions, hot women and horrid humor ahead of character development & acting, and the action itself (at times) was meaningless and dull.

Oh please, directors like JJ Abrams, Zack Snyder and Neill Blomkamp would have done a far better job with the Transformers franchise than Michael Bay.

Yet Transformers is one of the biggest selling franchises out there .... Even my artsy fartsy brother who goes to NYU Film loved the Transformers movies for what they were.

If Internet commentators didn't exist, I wonder what the consensus for Transformers/Bay would be. I think Bay hate was internet peer pressured into everybody.

[Savage]

Originally Posted by gugumugats

Yet Transformers is one of the biggest selling franchises out there .... Even my artsy fartsy brother who goes to NYU Film loved the Transformers movies for what they were.

If Internet commentators didn't exist, I wonder what the consensus for Transformers/Bay would be. I think Bay hate was internet peer pressured into everybody.

That's what it feels like, yeah. Sure, the movies are flawed (understatement of the century) but when you want a big, loud, dumb, action movie based on an action figure line you know where to go. A lot of comic book movies have great stories but leave a lot to be desired in the action department. Transformers smokes em all there in my opinion.

[protocida]

Everyone loved the Transformers movies.

Except the Internet, where hating on the more mindless things that people enjoy makes you cool.

[solidsnake86]

Visually bay is a great director. Some of my favourite action films are from him, bad boys 1 & 2, the rock. Transformers 1 was also entertaining.

[Lord]

While the plot was full of flaws Transformers 3 had some of the best action scenes i've ever seen, and the 3D was actually woth it, and also made Michael Bay not shake the camera as much so as to make the action comprehensible.

While i believe he actually did a bad directing job in Transformers 2 it's not as if he wrote the scripts, most of the problems in his movies start with the script, actually give the guy one good script this time and you get both, the good story and the great action and visuals.

[terry78]

See, get a really good screenwriter to work with Bay and just have him shoot it. It would be eye-meltingly beautiful. I think one issue is that Bay likes to get a little too hands on with it and inject his own **** into it. Which directors do, but it's not always for the best.

[DoomsdayApex]

Originally Posted by terry78

See, get a really good screenwriter to work with Bay and just have him shoot it. It would be eye-meltingly beautiful. I think one issue is that Bay likes to get a little too hands on with it and inject his own **** into it. Which directors do, but it's not always for the best.

Bingo!

It's easy to blame the writers, but Bay has been known to forgo what the script writers present. He infuses his 'ideas' into his films.

[DoomsdayApex]

Originally Posted by Savage

Character Development - Director's job
Faithfulness to the source material - Director's job
Lines that result in horrid humor - Director's job

Do you even bother to watch or read his interviews? Please do.

What do writers do again? Print out a synopsis for the director to run with? If that's the case then Christopher Nolan really is the sole reason that The Batman movies are successful.

Do you know who Goyer is? His scripts have never exactly been top-tier. David is an idea-man, NOT a writer. Why do you think Jonathan & Christopher Nolan were brought into the MoS project? Gill stated on the Batboards that the script was a mess and it needed to be revised.

The directors play an important role but there is only so much that can fall on their shoulders. If you want to say the visuals suck or that the actors were terribly directed or the pacing was terrible because of the editing then fine but almost every problem you raised was there before Bay read the script.

No. Bay has the final say in everything he presents to us (the audience). The dreadful humor, the cast selection (Megan Fox & Rose Huntington-Whiteley), the deaths, the character development, etc.

Don't believe me? Let me reiterate, watch and/or read his interviews. The great thing about Bay is that he has a large ego and he's not shy about talking about his alterations. Take for instance, Arcee's pointless introduction/death (it was 'fun' apparently, and the character annoyed him), The Fallen's place in ROTF (total badass who can only be stopped Optimus), Ironhide's emotionless death, and Bumblebee's vocal cord issues (it was cute for him to be a mime). He addressed them all to the public, and his answers irritated fans.

Also I completely disagree on those directors being able to make better Transformers movies. They'd come close but few people out there have an eye for action the way that Bay does. Star Trek had good action sequences but none of them compare to the highway fight in Dark of The Moon. Or just about anything involving Shockwave.

After witnessing Star Trek, Super 8 and Cloverfield, I severely disagree. JJ Abrams has a fantastic eye for action sequences and his visuals/SFX are top-notch. The same could be said about Zack Snyder with 300, Watchmen, Sucker Punch and Legend of the Guardians.

[Savage]

Originally Posted by DoomsdayApex

Do you even bother to watch or read his interviews? Please do.

I don't exactly stalk the guy's pages or anything but I have seen his interviews. He comes off enthusiastic about his work. I like that.

Do you know who Goyer is? His scripts have never exactly been top-tier. David is an idea-man, NOT a writer. Why do you think Jonathan & Christopher Nolan were brought into the MoS project? Gill stated on the Batboards that the script was a mess and it needed to be revised.

Goyer is hit or miss but he wouldn't be hired repeatedly if he wasn't good at his job. Otherwise why not just have the Nolans write the scripts?

No. Bay has the final say in everything he presents to us (the audience). The dreadful humor, the cast selection (Megan Fox & Rose Huntington-Whiteley), the deaths, the character development, etc.

Don't believe me? Let me reiterate, watch and/or read his interviews. The great thing about Bay is that he has a large ego and he's not shy about talking about his alterations. Take for instance, Arcee's pointless introduction/death (it was 'fun' apparently, and the character annoyed him), The Fallen's place in ROTF (total badass who can only be stopped Optimus), Ironhide's emotionless death, and Bumblebee's vocal cord issues (it was cute for him to be a mime). He addressed them all to the public, and his answers irritated fans.

I remember those. I guess it pays not to be a diehard fan about these things and just a casual movie goer, then. As someone who just likes movies and barely remembers Transformers details from his childhood I enjoyed the movies. The discussion here IS about the fact that he'd make some great movies with someone to reign in his ideas, though. For now he makes pretty awesome popcorn flicks.

After witnessing Star Trek, Super 8 and Cloverfield, I severely disagree. JJ Abrams has a fantastic eye for action sequences and his visuals/SFX are top-notch. The same could be said about Zack Snyder with 300, Watchmen, Sucker Punch and Legend of the Guardians.

And I agree that Abrams, Snyder, and Blomkamp all have great eyes for action. I just don't think that they're better than Bay in that department.

[DrCosmic]

I'd give it to Snyder over Bay. There's a certain magnitude of spectacle that Bay can achieve that no one else can, but when it comes to pacing and dynamics of action, the transformers fight scenes are a garbled mess compared to the clean consistent epicness of a 300 or a Legend of the Guardians.

I think Bay does need a superhero movie. It is sad that he would screw up the Flash so utterly, but the super speed effects and such would be simply unprecedented.

Originally Posted by terry78

See, get a really good screenwriter to work with Bay and just have him shoot it. It would be eye-meltingly beautiful. I think one issue is that Bay likes to get a little too hands on with it and inject his own **** into it. Which directors do, but it's not always for the best.

Yeah, lots of writers do stuff to make the film interesting to themselves. For many its to make it relevant or whatever. For Bay, it's pretty whimsical. You kinda never know what he's gonna do. He could kill off Iris cuz he doesn't like redheads. Despite the assured incredible action, it's a bit of a crapshoot.

Originally Posted by gugumugats

If a group of Rogues were ever put to film, I'll pose the question:

Powers or gadgets??

Gadgets gives more unity since Mirror Master, Trickster, and Boomerang work better as tech-based villains rather than being metahumans. On the other hand, nothing would stop the audience from asking why the Flash just can't take the gadgets out of their hands in a split second.

The problem with the Rogues, and with a flash movie, is that you have to explain why Flash doesn't run up and knock them out ASAP. Powers won't fix that. I say gadgets, but an interesting twist is if the gadgets were surgically implanted. Regardless, it leaves room to build up to the Time Travel/Future reveal. They should avoid getting KOed/weapons snatched by virtue of their cleverness and teamwork. You can't run on ice, you can't hit a guy surrounded by flame, you can't take down someone if you're running all over the city trying to keep people from getting decapitated by Boomerangs, and you definitely don't have anything for that guy fly over the city dropping lightning bolts on you.