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Old 04-08-2012, 05:27 PM   #51
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I would honestly love it if he gets in situations where he wants to hit someone but knows he can't so it's a build up to when he gets to hit Zod and make it spectacular. Actually they should do this with all his powers, give little glimpses but with the punching I want to be frustrated for him. But when he lets loose I hope I'm like Jesus! and be thrilled and amazed by the power he actually has. I think that is what is lacking as far a Superman goes. Stm had the "you will believe a man can fly!" aspect. Audiences were amazed. Now it's oh look he's doing this or that that's nice. They need to have that connection that people can relate too. Like the point in your life when you know you can or should have done something but didn't or couldn't etc. It needs to have the psychological effect on a persons memory so they can relate.

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Old 04-08-2012, 05:32 PM   #52
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100% agreed.

It will really annoy me if people start saying that liking any darker aspects of MOS means your a hypocrite if you didn't like the dark aspects of SR.

I don't like emo, lonely, brooding Superman. That doesn't mean I won't like a Superman film with a darker world.
This. They want to put him in an exaggeration of today's world. The world is dark today we have wars, famine, corruption, death and destruction at every turn, class differences. There is a whole mess of things so the world should be dark in that since. Superman will reflect that. This isn't the 70's anymore. He would look out of place in bright colors. I'm hoping he's an everyday man a man's man that just has superpowers.

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Old 04-08-2012, 07:06 PM   #53
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he can not be a messiah becuse the superman fans complained that he was a mesiah in SR . if he should now be because Snyder directed watchmen and Nolan is the batman god than this is hypocrisy. and i will be here the whole year to remind everyone.

and trust me i will make sure to remember everyone how they complained that SR was to dark. yet now they are praising the MOS symbol for being dark.
Superman was portrayed as a messiah in a very superficial way in Superman Returns. Yes, his body looked like he was on a cross as he was falling. Yes, he died and then rose. Yes, he looked like a greek god liftin the Daily Planet structure. Take away all the art, he had nothing messianic about him in the movie. guy abandons pregnant girlfriend and doesn't even tell her...then stalks her and tries to woo her away from a couple that has a kid. Beyond that, the whole focus on Superman's relationship with Lois being a bigger focus on the film that actually being an inspirational hero was a huge turn-off.

I hope Man of Steel actually captures his messianic character in the film and also poses real danger and moral challenges for Superman, not a soap opera trash love triangle angle. The challenges that Superman faces must be dark and grim, but he must be a incorruptible, strong, humble hero. Superman returns was a bit darker than some were expecting, but the darkness/mood impacted Superman's character as well, which was the wrong approach. He was no longer an inspirational character.
Singer's superman portrayed a jerk in maroon colors who just happened to solve all the world's problems with a snap of the finger (lifting kryptonite planet when you can't even stand on it). The character development and story writing has to be better.

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Old 04-08-2012, 07:27 PM   #54
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As some people have already stated, Superman's nature is to be a perky "glass is half full" kinda guy, which hasn't been a popular....what to call it...theme with the films. This isn't the 70s anymore, and isn't the 40s for that matter, when Superman lit up the comics.
I didn't care for Superman Returns that much, either. Love Kevin Spacey but hated his Lex. Make a better movie. Relevance to the masses.

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Old 04-08-2012, 08:37 PM   #55
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Default Re: Is Superman Irrelevant To Modern Audiences?

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This. They want to put him in an exaggeration of today's world. The world is dark today we have wars, famine, corruption, death and destruction at every turn, class differences. There is a whole mess of things so the world should be dark in that since. Superman will reflect that. This isn't the 70's anymore. He would look out of place in bright colors. I'm hoping he's an everyday man a man's man that just has superpowers.
Strongly agree with the bolded.

Strongly disagree with everything else... Superman shouldn't reflect the darkness of the world. If they want to make the world dark, he should stand out as the light in the darkness.

And he should NEVER just be a man's man with super powers. That would suggest that anyone could do what Superman does... but Superman is much more than just any old man with powers.

Superman is an absolute one of a kind, born of an extraordinary mix of circumstance (his alien origin and his adoptive parents) that shaped a strength of character that most people could only hope to have an ounce of.

And it's his extraordinary character that make him the world's greatest hero, not because he has the best powers.

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As some people have already stated, Superman's nature is to be a perky "glass is half full" kinda guy, which hasn't been a popular....what to call it...theme with the films. This isn't the 70s anymore, and isn't the 40s for that matter, when Superman lit up the comics.
I didn't care for Superman Returns that much, either. Love Kevin Spacey but hated his Lex. Make a better movie. Relevance to the masses.
How is optimism something that should be left back in the 70s or 40s?

Having a positive outlook on life isn't old fashioned...

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"The problem," Pa used to say, "is people. As far back as we go, we've always had problems with sharing. Seems everyone's too busy holding on to what they've got to care how their neighbors are doing."


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Old 04-08-2012, 09:13 PM   #56
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Default Re: Is Superman Irrelevant To Modern Audiences?

I guess Superman's postive outlook on life should stem from drink and drugs?

It's dark, it's modern, it's relevant...

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Old 04-08-2012, 10:25 PM   #57
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How are drugs relevant? There is more of a push to repress drug use now than any other time.

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Old 04-08-2012, 10:48 PM   #58
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How are drugs relevant? There is more of a push to repress drug use now than any other time.
And thank God for that!

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I believe in Batfleck

Things I have been right about before they were confirmed -
Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
1. Superman having no trunks
2. Bruce Wayne retiring and Batman being made a martyr
3. Bryan Cranston NOT being Lex Luthor
4. Joker being the big bad in Batman: Arkham Origins
5. Green Goblin not wearing a mask and being mutated
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Old 04-08-2012, 11:58 PM   #59
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I think like Snyder had mentioned in one of his previous interviews; just put Superman in a modern world, and that'll really help.

Previous films, you had the world that Superman was present in too accepting of him, let alone on how fast that everyone in his world dubbed him as their hero.

That shouldn't be the case in MOS and Superman should have to work for that title, and even after then, there should be people presented who are still wary of him.

Also, emphasize his humanistic traits more. I'm not talking about making him into Peter Parker, but based on all the elements that are there in the character already in terms of situations alone, there should be plenty of material to work with.

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Old 04-09-2012, 04:11 AM   #60
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Strongly disagree with everything else... Superman shouldn't reflect the darkness of the world. If they want to make the world dark, he should stand out as the light in the darkness.
This. The whole point in having Superman in a 创dark`` world or rather a realistic world crumbling with many problems is so that the we - the audience - can really see the effect that Superman has on that world when he appears. Not that the world would change overnight from a dark, rotten place to a happy fairyland of course, but it's about hope and inspiration, a hope for the better tomorrow. Making Superman himself a reflection of a dark world wouldn't achieve that and would change the basic of who he is.

And also, Clark grew up on a farm, raised by two wonderful parents and so he wasn't really exposed to the harsh reality of the world. Which is why I like the 创traveling the world`` aspect that I hope will be somewhat present in MOS, because it faces him with this reality and in a way, shocks him. And makes him start doing something about it, obviously.

Besides, I think putting Superman in a modern, real world is the first and most obvious way of making him 创relevant`` again. The audience has to recognize and identify with the world Superman is in and the problems that plague it, it will help them relate and care about the situation.


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And he should NEVER just be a man's man with super powers. That would suggest that anyone could do what Superman does... but Superman is much more than just any old man with powers.

Superman is an absolute one of a kind, born of an extraordinary mix of circumstance (his alien origin and his adoptive parents) that shaped a strength of character that most people could only hope to have an ounce of.
Agreed. Superman is in no way a 创man's man``. Like you said, the combination of his alien heritage (his powers and him embracing this heritage, which imo is important) AND him being raised by Jonathan and Martha makes him unique on earth. Which is why I hope the movie doesn't try to make any which sides of the personality a disguise - I don't mean that in an superficial way, because we all 创disguise`` ourselves from time to time and put on an act (like Clark has too) but on a deeper level, like dismissing Clark Kent as nothing but an act with glasses (thus pissing on Jonathan and Martha) or trying to make out Superman as nothing but an act for Clark Kent (thus pissing on the title character himself and the Kal El part of Clark). I think in order to make him relevant you shouldn't dismiss a part of him like that because then why should the audience care for something that doesn't really exist?

And speaking of an 创everyday man`` Superman should have an aura and presence of 创god`` (can't think of a better word atm) but at the same time be the pinnacle of 创humanity``. To quote Batman; “It is a remarkable dichotomy. In many ways, Clark is the most human of us all. Then… he shoots fire from the skies, and it is difficult not to think of him as a god. And how fortunate we all are that it does not occur to him.”

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Old 04-09-2012, 04:24 AM   #61
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, but the darkness/mood impacted Superman's character as well, which was the wrong approach. He was no longer an inspirational character.

And this was one of the (many) problems about SR (btw, agree with the rest of your post, nailed it!) and something that - based on what we know so far - I don't think is going to be an issue in MOS.The synopsis already states Superman must shine as the world's beacon of hope. And I think while Superman as the character may have some issues of his own to deal with and will perhaps be a bit more 创hands on``and proactive (Cavill said there's similarity between this Superman and the new 52 - even though the script was written before the new 52 I hope Goyer took some cues from the Golden age) but im sure he'll still be the 创light`` character that he is. Some people think that because MOS is (supposeldy) going to be 创dark`` or 创gritty`` Superman will turn into Batman. What a narrow viewpoint! Snyder already talked about the importance of 创kindness`` and humility in Superman and I really like this quote from Amy Adams, since she shoots scenes with 创Superman`` :

创 Henry Cavill is very Kermitty! There is a humility to Henry and that’s one of the reasons his Superman is going to be so compelling. He has this beautiful face and humble spirit and that’s really a hard combination to come upon. ``

Humility, compelling, humble...oh yeah that's so dark it makes Batman look like a happy unicorn ridding the rainbow.


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Old 04-09-2012, 05:13 AM   #62
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Default Re: Is Superman Irrelevant To Modern Audiences?

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This. The whole point in having Superman in a 创dark`` world or rather a realistic world crumbling with many problems is so that the we - the audience - can really see the effect that Superman has on that world when he appears. Not that the world would change overnight from a dark, rotten place to a happy fairyland of course, but it's about hope and inspiration, a hope for the better tomorrow. Making Superman himself a reflection of a dark world wouldn't achieve that and would change the basic of who he is.

And also, Clark grew up on a farm, raised by two wonderful parents and so he wasn't really exposed to the harsh reality of the world. Which is why I like the 创traveling the world`` aspect that I hope will be somewhat present in MOS, because it faces him with this reality and in a way, shocks him. And makes him start doing something about it, obviously.

Besides, I think putting Superman in a modern, real world is the first and most obvious way of making him 创relevant`` again. The audience has to recognize and identify with the world Superman is in and the problems that plague it, it will help them relate and care about the situation.
Yeah, we are completely on the same page

I really hope that the alaskan fishing village is just one of the places he's ended up in his 'travels' and that he's not just gone from kent farm to fishing village and on to metropolis.

Not only does travelling around a bit mean that he's seen the atrocities of the world up close, and how hard life is for some people because of corruption and greed in others, but it also gives him the opportunity to see the extent of human kindness, bravery and sacrifice within those situations. And perhaps then the audience would understand why he believes so heavily in people and what they are capable of.

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Agreed. Superman is in no way a 创man's man``. Like you said, the combination of his alien heritage (his powers and him embracing this heritage, which imo is important) AND him being raised by Jonathan and Martha makes him unique on earth. Which is why I hope the movie doesn't try to make any which sides of the personality a disguise - I don't mean that in an superficial way, because we all 创disguise`` ourselves from time to time and put on an act (like Clark has too) but on a deeper level, like dismissing Clark Kent as nothing but an act with glasses (thus pissing on Jonathan and Martha) or trying to make out Superman as nothing but an act for Clark Kent (thus pissing on the title character himself and the Kal El part of Clark). I think in order to make him relevant you shouldn't dismiss a part of him like that because then why should the audience care for something that doesn't really exist?

And speaking of an 创everyday man`` Superman should have an aura and presence of 创god`` (can't think of a better word atm) but at the same time be the pinnacle of 创humanity``. To quote Batman; 揑t is a remarkable dichotomy. In many ways, Clark is the most human of us all. Then he shoots fire from the skies, and it is difficult not to think of him as a god. And how fortunate we all are that it does not occur to him.
Completely agreed. That's why I have begun to HATE discussions about 'which is the real man'.

It's just treated as such a black and white thing by some people, and it's just not that simple at all. If they can manage to show how BOTH Clark Kent and Superman are BOTH real and disguises at the same time, I will be seriously impressed.

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And this was one of the (many) problems about SR (btw, agree with the rest of your post, nailed it!) and something that - based on what we know so far - I don't think is going to be an issue in MOS.The synopsis already states Superman must shine as the world's beacon of hope. And I think while Superman as the character may have some issues of his own to deal with and will perhaps be a bit more 创hands on``and proactive (Cavill said there's similarity between this Superman and the new 52 - even though the script was written before the new 52 I hope Goyer took some cues from the Golden age) but im sure he'll still be the 创light`` character that he is. Some people think that because MOS is (supposeldy) going to be 创dark`` or 创gritty`` Superman will turn into Batman. What a narrow viewpoint! Snyder already talked about the importance of 创kindness`` and humility in Superman and I really like this quote from Amy Adams, since she shoots scenes with 创Superman`` :

创 Henry Cavill is very Kermitty! There is a humility to Henry and that抯 one of the reasons his Superman is going to be so compelling. He has this beautiful face and humble spirit and that抯 really a hard combination to come upon. ``

Humility, compelling, humble...oh yeah that's so dark it makes Batman look like a happy unicorn ridding the rainbow.
Yeah, everything that's been said about Henry's casting assures me they picked him because they understand what's important for Superman, and feel that Henry encompasses that. Which I agree with from everything i've seen of the man. He has an incredibly humble, polite, honest air about him.

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"The problem," Pa used to say, "is people. As far back as we go, we've always had problems with sharing. Seems everyone's too busy holding on to what they've got to care how their neighbors are doing."


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Old 04-09-2012, 05:43 AM   #63
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Well Henry does contain that humility and kindness that you could imagine Superman having where a person should trust that their safe in his arms when they're being rescued by Superman, and at the same time, he's capable of exhibiting one hell of a serious face where you could imagine that once Superman has that look on his face, you know that business is about to pick up.

The irony is that Superman being that "light" to show humanity the way was something that was emphasized on in previous films and yet I never saw that actually displayed in them. Superman was just sort of there to rescue people in need and stop the villain of the day. Never saw him being put in a situation where his actions had a long term effect in where the world that he was in was going to approach and move towards.

You know, I think another important thing to show is Superman that enjoys doing regular stuff like, eating....hanging out with his coworkers, just seeing what a normal day is like for him when he's not saving someone.

And heck, if there is to be romance between him and Lois, actually show him in the process of falling for her, and vice versa and not just say that these two are in love with each other after a night's flight. That would be more realistic and relative imho as well.

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Old 04-09-2012, 06:33 AM   #64
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Strongly agree with the bolded.

Strongly disagree with everything else... Superman shouldn't reflect the darkness of the world. If they want to make the world dark, he should stand out as the light in the darkness.

And he should NEVER just be a man's man with super powers. That would suggest that anyone could do what Superman does... but Superman is much more than just any old man with powers.

Superman is an absolute one of a kind, born of an extraordinary mix of circumstance (his alien origin and his adoptive parents) that shaped a strength of character that most people could only hope to have an ounce of.

And it's his extraordinary character that make him the world's greatest hero, not because he has the best powers.



How is optimism something that should be left back in the 70s or 40s?

Having a positive outlook on life isn't old fashioned...
I didn't mean he should be dark and I meant the movie as a whole. He should not be bright and happy either. He should be the hope the world needs but not campy.

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Old 04-09-2012, 07:04 AM   #65
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I didn't mean he should be dark and I meant the movie as a whole. He should not be bright and happy either. He should be the hope the world needs but not campy.
If anything, much like the character himself, I'd say that the filmmakers would need to find that right balance in how they present Superman.

Imho, he can't be a campy hero that's jolly all the time, but they can't modernize him to the point where he's no different from Peter Parker.

And I don't think making him into a wise ass like Tony Stark will do him any favors either.

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Old 04-09-2012, 07:52 PM   #66
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The irony is that Superman being that "light" to show humanity the way was something that was emphasized on in previous films and yet I never saw that actually displayed in them. Superman was just sort of there to rescue people in need and stop the villain of the day. Never saw him being put in a situation where his actions had a long term effect in where the world that he was in was going to approach and move towards.
I think Jor-El meant for Superman to set an example, like a role-model, which he does by saving lives and fighting crime.

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Old 04-10-2012, 11:56 AM   #67
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Superman was portrayed as a messiah in a very superficial way in Superman Returns. Yes, his body looked like he was on a cross as he was falling. Yes, he died and then rose. Yes, he looked like a greek god liftin the Daily Planet structure. Take away all the art, he had nothing messianic about him in the movie. guy abandons pregnant girlfriend and doesn't even tell her...then stalks her and tries to woo her away from a couple that has a kid.
Honest criticisms of SR are valid; but that means getting the details correct. Supes didn’t abandon his pregnant girlfriend; he didn’t know she was pregnant. One of the obvious themes in the film was that the connection to family being sought in deep space was already present at home. If Superman had known about a son, there’d be no motive to leave. And it’s a big stretch to say that Supes was actively “wooing” and trying to break up Lois’s family. Clearly, there continued to be a mutual attraction between Superman and Lois. But, ultimately, this was resisted by both parties. Indeed, the imagery used in the yacht rescue scene was unmistakable: Superman was actively preserving the Lois-Richard-Jason family unit.

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Old 04-10-2012, 03:03 PM   #68
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I feel like one of Superman's biggest problems in connecting with people is that he is such an icon. He is one of the most (if not THE most) recognized figures in pop culture. The vast majority of people know what he can do, his alter ego, his arch-nemesis, his girlfriend, and maybe even his home planet and origin.

Unfortunately, with this comes the false notion of knowing who the character is -- what defines him. Now this makes it difficult to alter him is ways the make him grow or to revert him back to the character he once was. When the GA encounters such changes (and I can only speak for the USA), it seems as if they take it personally. It's almost as if they are messing with the American flag, which makes sense in a way since he is an American icon. You can see this reaction in the way that it was such a big news story when Superman renounced his American citizenship (something I was behind, BTW).

It's just so strange the way that Superman is such a respected character but so ignored at the same time. Sometimes, it seems like it is something that he can't overcome as well.

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Old 04-10-2012, 03:07 PM   #69
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Supes didn抰 abandon his pregnant girlfriend; he didn抰 know she was pregnant. One of the obvious themes in the film was that the connection to family being sought in deep space was already present at home. If Superman had known about a son, there抎 be no motive to leave. And it抯 a big stretch to say that Supes was actively 搘ooing and trying to break up Lois抯 family. Clearly, there continued to be a mutual attraction between Superman and Lois.
That's all true and I did enjoy SR, mostly because of the length of time waiting for a new Superman movie to come out but the one aspect that really was too much was the stalker Superman.
The fact that he used his powers for personal gain goes against the whole essence of the character IMO.
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Superman was actively preserving the Lois-Richard-Jason family unit.
That's also true but he did it with much reluctance and the way he handled it was child like. When he realised that Jason was his son he should have sat down with Lois & Richard and discussed it. Not just break into their home and have a chat with his son, who also must be confused as hell because he thought Richard was his father.

They really got the core character of Superman wrong in SR which is what annoyed me the most about it.
There is 1 scene which I can't watch without laughing which shows how inept they were. The scene when supes separates the shuttle from the plane and he is guiding the shuttle towards space and he just stands their and admires the shuttle blasting away, he then casually looks towards the plane and you can see it's almost like he thinks "oh ****, the plane" and heads to save the plane. It's hilarious because it was so bad.
If they did it as a bit of humour then again it just shows how blas they were with the character. Superman would not stand there admiring his handy work and let a plane which is on fire & full of people plummet towards earth.

Getting back to MOS though and I think regarding the talk about a darker Superman. I don't necessarily think that Superman himself needs to be darker to be relevant but the world in which he occupies does need to be IMO.
The previous movie incarnations the overall feel of the world he occupied was fine for that time but SR felt a bit old fashioned and I think that was down to Singer trying to capture the style of the Donner movies.
If they make the world realistic to today standards that would be a lot darker than previous movies and be current.

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Old 04-10-2012, 03:46 PM   #70
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That's also true but he did it with much reluctance and the way he handled it was child like. When he realised that Jason was his son he should have sat down with Lois & Richard and discussed it. Not just break into their home and have a chat with his son, who also must be confused as hell because he thought Richard was his father.
I thought the reluctance was very true to life and true to adult experience. And a scene where Supes sits down with Lois and Richard to discuss shared custody, etc. would have been spectacularly boring. The soliloquy in the bedroom was much more poignant.

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There is 1 scene which I can't watch without laughing which shows how inept they were. The scene when supes separates the shuttle from the plane and he is guiding the shuttle towards space and he just stands their and admires the shuttle blasting away, he then casually looks towards the plane and you can see it's almost like he thinks "oh ****, the plane" and heads to save the plane. It's hilarious because it was so bad.
If they did it as a bit of humour then again it just shows how blas they were with the character. Superman would not stand there admiring his handy work and let a plane which is on fire & full of people plummet towards earth.
I’d be surprised if many read the scene that way. Simultaneous crises were occurring, so Supes prioritized: He first guided the shuttle towards a safe orbit (it wasn’t stricken, oribit was its intended destination and bringing both the shuttle and the plane in for landings wasn’t a feasible option). Then he turned his attention to the plane. Objectively, it was the right course of action in the right order. I don’t see the humor (intentional or unintentional) in the scene.

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Getting back to MOS though and I think regarding the talk about a darker Superman. I don't necessarily think that Superman himself needs to be darker to be relevant but the world in which he occupies does need to be IMO.
I agree. At the same time, Supes shouldn’t be oblivious to the darkness. The goodie-two-shoes naivety of the Reeve era (which was a kind of joke anyway) just won’t cut it.

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Old 04-10-2012, 09:04 PM   #71
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Default Re: Is Superman Irrelevant To Modern Audiences?

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Originally Posted by Lead Cenobite View Post
I think Jor-El meant for Superman to set an example, like a role-model, which he does by saving lives and fighting crime.
True; though again, i didn't see him being a role model having any particular effect on the people of Earth from doing anything out of the ordinary and such.

The Police and Military force were still the same that they were before and after Superman made his debut.

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Old 04-10-2012, 09:55 PM   #72
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Default Re: Is Superman Irrelevant To Modern Audiences?

It's a shame Lex wasn't in this movie. Cause I feel he would have been the solution to the question of is Superman irrelevant?

After all, Lex is the human 'Superman'. He can do things that Superman can't and deliberately tries to show the whole world.

Say Lex does come into it later, and starts funding medical and science research. Gives money to charity. Builds machines and other things that ensure safety within war zones for our armies. Gets on the political side of things. Wouldn't that make Superman seem irrelevant in general? We as an audience know what he's like, but it would be interesting if we could actually see things from the publics perspective within in the film when he first arrives.

So realistically, Lex would simply say
"I can make Superman irrelevant. We don't need him. The world has the likes of me".

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Old 04-10-2012, 10:21 PM   #73
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Default Re: Is Superman Irrelevant To Modern Audiences?

I think Superman will always be relevant to audiences... so long as there are people in need of hope in the world....

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Old 04-10-2012, 10:49 PM   #74
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Default Re: Is Superman Irrelevant To Modern Audiences?

There was a bad forest fire where I live and driving by it I saw firefighters riding in a truck on the way to the fire......I couldn't help but think how brave they are and how superman can be irrelevant in situations like this.....I mean just think of the despair, and fear that volunteer fire fighters feel when a fire gets uncontrollable.......now tell me if superman is irrelevant

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Old 04-10-2012, 11:52 PM   #75
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Default Re: Is Superman Irrelevant To Modern Audiences?

Yep, and that is why Superman is the ultimate "what if?" character. Just look at the disasters of the past few years, and think that in a world with Superman, none of them happen-and then think of how different that would make the world for good and for ill.

That's a lot of what Maggin's writing is about, and that's also why the most interesting thing about Superman is not immature violence, it's actual moral dilemmas.

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