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Old 04-11-2012, 05:47 AM   #76
hopefuldreamer
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Default Re: Is Superman Irrelevant To Modern Audiences?

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Yep, and that is why Superman is the ultimate "what if?" character. Just look at the disasters of the past few years, and think that in a world with Superman, none of them happen-and then think of how different that would make the world for good and for il
I think about this often. And I think that's why I find the DC universe so much more appealing than Marvel's.

With characters like Superman, Green Lantern, Batman and the JL in general, you can see how they are actively making the world change. Making it a better, safer place for people on a long term scale. That's their mission.

With characters like Spiderman and X-men, it seems like they spend most of their time fighting their own battles. Fighting their villains. X-men protect the world from Magneto, Spiderman protects New York from masked criminals.

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Old 04-11-2012, 08:00 AM   #77
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Default Re: Is Superman Irrelevant To Modern Audiences?

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I think like Snyder had mentioned in one of his previous interviews; just put Superman in a modern world, and that'll really help.

Previous films, you had the world that Superman was present in too accepting of him, let alone on how fast that everyone in his world dubbed him as their hero.

That shouldn't be the case in MOS and Superman should have to work for that title, and even after then, there should be people presented who are still wary of him.

Also, emphasize his humanistic traits more. I'm not talking about making him into Peter Parker, but based on all the elements that are there in the character already in terms of situations alone, there should be plenty of material to work with.

I've always thought of going into the extra-terrestrial nature of him and how that would impact modern society. As you say I don't think everyone would just say 'he wears a red cape, he's our hero, I blindly trust him.' I imagine people totally against him, religions accusing him of being the devil and cults following him as the "real" God. Let alone governements of the world considering him part of the Amrican imperialism and how could the US control him and his powers. What would stop him from spying anyone and anything, revealing secrets to other countries, etc etc.

And I've always thought of Clark Kent as genuinely shy and timid. Not the over-the-top bumbling clumsy Clark. Nor the Raimi's Peter Parker cliche nerdy person.

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Old 04-11-2012, 08:42 AM   #78
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I think the best way to make him relevant, is by making him the embodiment of the American spirit. He has to make a connection with the people who think America, and the World for that matter, has lost it's way.

I hated it when Americans said about the story of Superman's US citizenship,
"Who cares if he doesn't want be American anymore? He hasn't been an 'American' in a long time"
So...is it not American to actually want to help other countries too? Being the front runners for peace across the entire World? I would have thought so.

But if that's how American's feel, then this film will certainly have to rekindle that deep spiritual connection between Superman and their countries ideals.

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Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
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3. Bryan Cranston NOT being Lex Luthor
4. Joker being the big bad in Batman: Arkham Origins
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Old 04-11-2012, 09:15 AM   #79
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Default Re: Is Superman Irrelevant To Modern Audiences?

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I've always thought of going into the extra-terrestrial nature of him and how that would impact modern society. As you say I don't think everyone would just say 'he wears a red cape, he's our hero, I blindly trust him.' I imagine people totally against him, religions accusing him of being the devil and cults following him as the "real" God. Let alone governements of the world considering him part of the Amrican imperialism and how could the US control him and his powers. What would stop him from spying anyone and anything, revealing secrets to other countries, etc etc.
I agree that it would be realistic (and therefore “relevant”) for many people to be distrustful, skeptical and paranoid about Superman’s first appearances. Eventually, though, they would learn to trust. But that shouldn’t happen because Supes gives a comforting speech or smiles to the cameras or pets a cute puppy. That’s the stuff that slippery politicians and televangelists do. And it begs credibility that this would universally satisfy the masses. I think Supes should be a bit mysterious and a man of few words; his selfless actions (over time) are what convinces people.

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Old 04-11-2012, 09:26 AM   #80
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Default Re: Is Superman Irrelevant To Modern Audiences?

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So...is it not American to actually want to help other countries too? Being the front runners for peace across the entire World? I would have thought so.
If you talk about what America wants to be, probably. If you talk abouit what happens in reality, I've seen a lot of bombings and deaths in the name of the American way.



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I agree that it would be realistic (and therefore “relevant”) for many people to be distrustful, skeptical and paranoid about Superman’s first appearances. Eventually, though, they would learn to trust. But that shouldn’t happen because Supes gives a comforting speech or smiles to the cameras or pets a cute puppy. That’s the stuff that slippery politicians and televangelists do. And it begs credibility that this would universally satisfy the masses. I think Supes should be a bit mysterious and a man of few words; his selfless actions (over time) are what convinces people.
I agree, he shouldn't be a man of (beautiful) speeches.

But his actions could be easily distorted and misinterpreted. Even more when people find out he comes from another planet. It was a great story when Luthor made people believe Superman was just the first of many aliens coming to take over the world.

It'd take actions, yes, but also time.

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Old 04-11-2012, 09:32 AM   #81
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The extremists of the American way maybe

I'm talking about the old fashioned ideals, where they lead the ways for peace, truth and justice. The ideals Superman learnt were of the old breed of the American way, the Kent's. They had the right idea.

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Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
1. Superman having no trunks
2. Bruce Wayne retiring and Batman being made a martyr
3. Bryan Cranston NOT being Lex Luthor
4. Joker being the big bad in Batman: Arkham Origins
5. Green Goblin not wearing a mask and being mutated
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Old 04-11-2012, 09:46 AM   #82
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Default Re: Is Superman Irrelevant To Modern Audiences?

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The extremists of the American way maybe

I'm talking about the old fashioned ideals, where they lead the ways for peace, truth and justice. The ideals Superman learnt were of the old breed of the American way, the Kent's. They had the right idea.
That is definitely true in terms of the American ideal. The conflict in that story and something the people get confused is that there is a difference between holding up the ideals of America and acting on the behalf of the American government.

It's funny that there was such a hubbub about the Superman story but I don't remembering hearing complaints about Captain America leading the rebellion against the SRA. I find their actions to be identical -- the only difference is the place that Superman holds in pop culture as opposed to Cap so it brings more attention.

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Old 04-11-2012, 09:49 AM   #83
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Default Re: Is Superman Irrelevant To Modern Audiences?

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The extremists of the American way maybe

I'm talking about the old fashioned ideals, where they lead the ways for peace, truth and justice. The ideals Superman learnt were of the old breed of the American way, the Kent's. They had the right idea.
Done carefully, you could explore idealism vs cynicism as they relate to Superman’s appearances and actions. But this should be a conversation for secondary characters (or a brief “talking heads” segment on Fox News). Superman, himself, shouldn’t be explaining his own idealism.

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Old 04-11-2012, 09:52 AM   #84
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Default Re: Is Superman Irrelevant To Modern Audiences?

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I think Supes should be a bit mysterious and a man of few words; his selfless actions (over time) are what convinces people.
Totally agreed.

I think that's why I'd love to see rescue scenes written from victims perspectives/POV. It'd just be a great way of showing 'This is why people start to love him rather than fear him'.

I mean, most everyone is going to be freaked out when they hear about an all powerful being flying around the city.

But it's the people he saves that will 'spread the word' of what he's truly like. How they were terrified, in pain and trapped, and it looked hopeless, and then he appeared. They'll tell how calm he was. How strong. How he didn't hesistate for a moment and didn't stop until everyone was safe.

Eventually everyone will know someone who knows someone who was saved by Superman one time. And not only will they be really glad for him being their because their friend is alive, but they'll learn a bit of how good he is from their story.

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Old 04-11-2012, 10:03 AM   #85
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I think what was meant by "American way" WAS the Truth, Justice and Liberty. Originally Superman was anti-Fascist and Anti-Communist. The ideals he stood for in 1938 are quite different than what the USA Government has grown into.

This was at a time when on our earth, there were 3 choices, the "American Way" was one of them.

The other two are virtually extinct, one defeated in WWII, the other fell apart when people realized that all communist countries were not workers paradises, as they all needed men with guns to keep their people inside. Clearly nothing is a paradise if it requires men with guns to keep you there. How Orwellian.

Over time with a government that grows more invasive, reactionary in the USA, the world view of our country (I’m in the USA) is becoming increasingly more negative. Today we are viewed as imperial, and oppressors.

Today this is how much of the world views the USA. I don't want Superman sounding like these idiots:

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Old 04-11-2012, 10:23 AM   #86
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Superman being of the old American way in a modern society of new ideals which people struggle with, can be an a real interesting thing to see. It would certainly make an impact on a lot of people around the world, if done just right.

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Things I have been right about before they were confirmed -
Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
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2. Bruce Wayne retiring and Batman being made a martyr
3. Bryan Cranston NOT being Lex Luthor
4. Joker being the big bad in Batman: Arkham Origins
5. Green Goblin not wearing a mask and being mutated
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Old 04-11-2012, 11:02 AM   #87
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I think what was meant by "American way" WAS the Truth, Justice and Liberty. Originally Superman was anti-Fascist and Anti-Communist. The ideals he stood for in 1938 are quite different than what the USA Government has grown into.
It was something of a scandal when SR seemed to repudiate The American Way (…”truth, justice… and all that stuff”) But as this NYTimes column points out, The American Way wasn’t always present. It appeared and disappeared according to the times. An interesting little analysis:

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/06/30/op...k.2093103.html

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Old 04-11-2012, 11:19 AM   #88
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Default Re: Is Superman Irrelevant To Modern Audiences?

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It was something of a scandal when SR seemed to repudiate The American Way (…”truth, justice… and all that stuff”) But as this NYTimes column points out, The American Way wasn’t always present. It appeared and disappeared according to the times. An interesting little analysis:

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/06/30/op...k.2093103.html
Oh wow, I forgot about that.

Again, it's so funny that everyone has an opinion on Superman yet most people think he's lame and boring. I guess it's the price of being an icon.

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Old 04-11-2012, 09:21 PM   #89
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Honest criticisms of SR are valid; but that means getting the details correct. Supes didn’t abandon his pregnant girlfriend; he didn’t know she was pregnant.
What I said is technically correct, he abandoned his pregnant girlfriend...who he didn't know was pregnant. Abandoning your girlfriend is wrong under any circumstances...break it up face to face is the mature adult thing to do. If he had spoken to her, he might have known she was pregnant. There is nothing excusing his cowardly behavior here. If someone in real world abandons his girlfriend to go back and visit his home country, is the excuse "I didn't know you were pregnant" really gonna cut it when Lois is raising a child on her own?

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And it’s a big stretch to say that Supes was actively “wooing” and trying to break up Lois’s family. Clearly, there continued to be a mutual attraction between Superman and Lois. But, ultimately, this was resisted by both parties. Indeed, the imagery used in the yacht rescue scene was unmistakable: Superman was actively preserving the Lois-Richard-Jason family unit.
Lifting up Lois for an embrace and almost kissing her isn't active wooing. What about all the constant stalking? Trying to save their lives while sneaking in a peak doesn't negate his attempt at interfering with their relationship. After all..."she's still in love with you know who"

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I thought the reluctance was very true to life and true to adult experience. And a scene where Supes sits down with Lois and Richard to discuss shared custody, etc. would have been spectacularly boring. The soliloquy in the bedroom was much more poignant.
The bedroom scene was one of the worst conclusions I've seen in a blockbuster superhero film in last decade. You find out this enormous detail about who finally the father of kid is (big question trumped up in the movie)....and Lois and Superman stare at each other and walk off....leaving us waiting to find out what they're all gonna do about this in a never-to-happen sequel. You're gonna have to deal with all that "boring" parenting responsibility stuff eventually. There was no closure here and made all the anticipation of the reveal pointless to the movie's plot. We should be anticipating the next villain, not how Richard is gonna handle being thrown under the bus Lois and Clark.

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Old 04-11-2012, 10:28 PM   #90
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You all talk as if Superman just chickened out and ditched her and went on with his life.. no, he spent 6 years traveling through space in the hope of finding Kryptonian survivors. This isn't just the story of some average deadbeat who didn't want to take responsibility. It was Superman being Superman, trying to save lives.

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Old 04-11-2012, 10:43 PM   #91
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What I said is technically correct, he abandoned his pregnant girlfriend...who he didn't know was pregnant. Abandoning your girlfriend is wrong under any circumstances...break it up face to face is the mature adult thing to do. If he had spoken to her, he might have known she was pregnant. There is nothing excusing his cowardly behavior here. If someone in real world abandons his girlfriend to go back and visit his home country, is the excuse "I didn't know you were pregnant" really gonna cut it when Lois is raising a child on her own?
As far as we know, not even Lois knew she was pregnant. That's why Jason being super-powered came up as a surprise to her. She thought he was Richard's.

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Lifting up Lois for an embrace and almost kissing her isn't active wooing. What about all the constant stalking? Trying to save their lives while sneaking in a peak doesn't negate his attempt at interfering with their relationship. After all..."she's still in love with you know who"
Of course he tried to win her back. Of course. She's the love of his life.

He knows she refused to marry Richard. He knows she is with Richard out of spite or just wanting comfort and company. He knows she is still in love with him, but she won't forgive him for not saying good-bye.

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The bedroom scene was one of the worst conclusions I've seen in a blockbuster superhero film in last decade. You find out this enormous detail about who finally the father of kid is (big question trumped up in the movie)....and Lois and Superman stare at each other and walk off....leaving us waiting to find out what they're all gonna do about this in a never-to-happen sequel.


Many superhero movies end leaving things for sequels. But sequels are a gamble. That doesn't take anything from the movie.

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You're gonna have to deal with all that "boring" parenting responsibility stuff eventually.
'Boring' being your personal opinion.

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There was no closure here and made all the anticipation of the reveal pointless to the movie's plot.
Yes. The Dark Kmnight left for the next movie all that "fugitive Batman" stuff, no closure at all. Booooo, bad movie!

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We should be anticipating the next villain, not how Richard is gonna handle being thrown under the bus Lois and Clark.
"Should"? X-Men 1 ended up NOT anticipating the next villiain but the next step in the story: what are Wolverine's roots (a promise that was never fulfilled in the sequel btw).

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Old 04-11-2012, 10:50 PM   #92
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Superman should have been responsible and waited around to see if she was pregnant before selfishly buggering off to find survivors of his home planet in order to fufill the loneliness in his cold black heart


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I believe in Batfleck

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Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
1. Superman having no trunks
2. Bruce Wayne retiring and Batman being made a martyr
3. Bryan Cranston NOT being Lex Luthor
4. Joker being the big bad in Batman: Arkham Origins
5. Green Goblin not wearing a mask and being mutated
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Old 04-11-2012, 11:02 PM   #93
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We should be anticipating the next villain, not how Richard is gonna handle being thrown under the bus Lois and Clark.
The scene where Lois, Richard and Jason are in a car to Hospital where Superman is recovering from the effects of Kryptonite, shows that Lois and jason go to see Superman and Richard says something like "I will wait for you here" is indicative of the direction their relationship will take in future, that Richard realizes that Lois still is in Love with superman but Richard is still willing to wait for her if she changes her mind.

The final scene in SR where Superman visits jason and then says "I will be always around" is an indication that Supes is ready to take the responsibility of jason as his father.

As for villain in the sequel (which will not happen) it was plain clear that it would have some ties with New Krypton lifted by Supes into space.

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Old 04-11-2012, 11:13 PM   #94
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Superman should have been responsible and waited around to see if she was pregnant before selfishly buggering off to find survivors of his home planet in order to fufill the loneliness in his cold black heart

Only your eagerness to complain would lead you to the absurdity of calling 'selfish' to rescue survivors.

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Old 04-11-2012, 11:27 PM   #95
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Did he go to rescue them?

SR and the end of SII for that matter, showed Clark was desperately lonely. The whole thing of SR was to show he does have a family and it's on Earth and needn't feel alone anymore.

I mean, if he was going to rescue them, he could have easily said goodbye to Lois
¨I'll only be gone 5 years¨
Saying goodbye forever is indeed for more difficult than saying goodbye for the next few years.
He didn't say goodbye to anyone cause he wasn't planning on returning to Earth IMO.

If survivors of Krypton were established somewhere and managed to survive for many years, he could have settled in with them. Returning survivors to Earth would have been a big mistake since he knew what Kryptonian's could turn into, Zod and co.

It seems obvious he was not planning on coming back to Earth.

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I believe in Batfleck

Things I have been right about before they were confirmed -
Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
1. Superman having no trunks
2. Bruce Wayne retiring and Batman being made a martyr
3. Bryan Cranston NOT being Lex Luthor
4. Joker being the big bad in Batman: Arkham Origins
5. Green Goblin not wearing a mask and being mutated
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Old 04-12-2012, 12:00 AM   #96
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Did he go to rescue them?
Absolutely not. He went to say "Hey, good luck with that."

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SR and the end of SII for that matter, showed Clark was desperately lonely. The whole thing of SR was to show he does have a family and it's on Earth and needn't feel alone anymore.
On the contrary, the ending of SII showed a smiling Superman that accepted that he can't be with Lois. If you found a scene where he looks desperate please link me to it.

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I mean, if he was going to rescue them, he could have easily said goodbye to Lois
¨I'll only be gone 5 years¨
Saying goodbye forever is indeed for more difficult than saying goodbye for the next few years.
Except he didn't know the trip would last 5 years. It might as well have lasted 10 or more. Or, yes, forever.

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He didn't say goodbye to anyone cause he wasn't planning on returning to Earth IMO.
Yes, it's your opinion, but nothing in the movie backs you up.

When he quit his mission in SII I don't remember warning people of the Earth about it. This is the same Superman.

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If survivors of Krypton were established somewhere and managed to survive for many years, he could have settled in with them.
This is mere speculation.

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Returning survivors to Earth would have been a big mistake since he knew what Kryptonian's could turn into, Zod and co.
Yes, because the mere fact of comingto Earth makes any Kryptonian into an evil being.

Well, no. Superman came from Krypton and he's a hero. And Zod and co were evil before coming to Earth.

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It seems obvious he was not planning on coming back to Earth.
Feel free to quote or at least state what's the reasoning behind this. One that considers the movie as evidence and not just what the imagination can lead you to.

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Old 04-12-2012, 12:38 AM   #97
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It seems obvious he was not planning on coming back to Earth.
I don't think that he was planning to settle there with other Kryptonians or that he was planning Not to return to Earth, if that were true, he would have taken the crystals in the Fortress of Solitude with him and a photograph of Ma Kent, Pa Kent and Lois with him.

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Old 04-12-2012, 03:42 AM   #98
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He knows she refused to marry Richard. He knows she is with Richard out of spite or just wanting comfort and company. He knows she is still in love with him, but she won't forgive him for not saying good-bye.
She did not refuse to marry him...

They were engaged. That means he proposed and she said YES, not 'I refuse'.

She may have had her doubts, but if Superman hadn't come back for another year or so, she'd have married him. Why wouldn't she? He was a really wonderful guy, a great dad and someone who loved her very much.

Of course she still had feelings for Superman. He's not the kind of guy you ever get over. He's absolutely one of a kind.

But this is what happens when someone is gone for a long time and no one knows what happened to them. People move on eventually. They build their lives back up again.

And TBH, she never should forgive him for not saying goodbye. It was despicable behaviour to not tell anyone where he was going. To just fly off, letting everyone believe he could be dead. Not bothering to see Lex's trial through properly.

'Too hard to say goodbye' just doesn't cut it. You gonna be that much of a wimp, fine. Leave a note. Leave a message with someone to let the world and Lois know where he's going.

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I think back to my father. As a farmer, he had a natural understanding for the Earth. I remember him telling me this world is capable of providing for all its creatures. Even now, with so many more people, there exists enough food for everyone.

"The problem," Pa used to say, "is people. As far back as we go, we've always had problems with sharing. Seems everyone's too busy holding on to what they've got to care how their neighbors are doing."


*\S/T*
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Old 04-12-2012, 09:00 AM   #99
Rodrigo90
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Default Re: Is Superman Irrelevant To Modern Audiences?

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Originally Posted by El Payaso View Post
Absolutely not. He went to say "Hey, good luck with that."




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On the contrary, the ending of SII showed a smiling Superman that accepted that he can't be with Lois. If you found a scene where he looks desperate please link me to it.
He was pretty desperate in SR



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Except he didn't know the trip would last 5 years. It might as well have lasted 10 or more. Or, yes, forever.
Lex knew how long it took for him to arrive from Krypton to Earth. The scientists who alerted Superman could also have gave him the estimate, the same as Lex's.


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When he quit his mission in SII I don't remember warning people of the Earth about it. This is the same Superman.
He decided to quit in SII cause he wanted to be with Lois. He never gave any warning or consideration to the people of Earth when doing it. So what makes you think he wouldn't do it all over again? He couldn't be with the woman he loved on Earth, so he went somewhere else to find companionship. The mere fact he up and left his responsibilities for companionship, twice, tells me he wasn't bothered about Earth that much. Until his mistakes smacked him hard in the face.




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Yes, because the mere fact of comingto Earth makes any Kryptonian into an evil being.

Well, no. Superman came from Krypton and he's a hero. And Zod and co were evil before coming to Earth.
Don't you think it's a bit reckless though? How did he not know some time down the line a Kryptonian might get a bit high on his God like powers?

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"A hero is an ordinary individual who finds the strength to persevere and endure in spite of overwhelming obstacles "
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I believe in Batfleck

Things I have been right about before they were confirmed -
Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
1. Superman having no trunks
2. Bruce Wayne retiring and Batman being made a martyr
3. Bryan Cranston NOT being Lex Luthor
4. Joker being the big bad in Batman: Arkham Origins
5. Green Goblin not wearing a mask and being mutated
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Old 04-12-2012, 09:05 AM   #100
Dr.
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Default Re: Is Superman Irrelevant To Modern Audiences?

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Originally Posted by SentinelMind View Post
What I said is technically correct, he abandoned his pregnant girlfriend...who he didn't know was pregnant. Abandoning your girlfriend is wrong under any circumstances...break it up face to face is the mature adult thing to do. If he had spoken to her, he might have known she was pregnant. There is nothing excusing his cowardly behavior here. If someone in real world abandons his girlfriend to go back and visit his home country, is the excuse "I didn't know you were pregnant" really gonna cut it when Lois is raising a child on her own?
If you describe a plot as “guy abandons his pregnant girlfriend” you’re connoting a certain context as to the character’s knowledge and his dubious morality. Clearly, it’s incorrect to apply that description here. Likewise, a story about a soldier returning from war to discover that he’s a father could not be properly described as “guy abandons his pregnant girlfriend” – it misrepresents the factual details. Also keep in mind – while Jason’s paternity was confirmed to the audience with the events on Luthor’s yacht, Superman only got the news late into the third act. Whereupon, his very next action was a visit to Jason and the issue of a promise: “...you’ll never be alone.” You’d be hard-pressed to call this “abandonment.”

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Lifting up Lois for an embrace and almost kissing her isn't active wooing[?] What about all the constant stalking? Trying to save their lives while sneaking in a peak doesn't negate his attempt at interfering with their relationship. After all..."she's still in love with you know who."
Clearly, Superman and Lois have a history. Just as clearly, there continues to exist a strong, mutual attraction between them – despite the years and Richard’s presence. That’s the point; this conflict is a central aspect of the story. But if you look at the film carefully, you’ll note that this conflict (as far as Superman is concerned) is resolved at almost precisely the midpoint of the narrative (the DP rooftop scene). From there on, nothing that he does could be remotely described as trying to break up Lois and Richard. As I indicated before, Superman saves the Lois-Richard-Jason family unit. And when he undertakes the task of launching a kryptonite-infused NK into space, he has no expectation of surviving. Among the many families that will be saved is Lois’s.

By “constant stalking” I assume you’re referring to the single instance of Supes confirming Lois’s domestic contentment at her (and Richard’s) house. Stalking implies some sort of obsessive pleasure derived through the act of spying. And, obviously, there was nothing about the information that Supes gleaned from the overheard conversation that was pleasurable. Dramatically, it indicated to Superman that Lois had (ostensibly) moved on and that he was out of the picture. In another genre, this plot point might have been conveyed through the inadvertent discovery of a letter. In this (Superman) tale, different means were used – but the same ends were arrived at.

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The bedroom scene was one of the worst conclusions I've seen in a blockbuster superhero film in last decade. You find out this enormous detail about who finally the father of kid is (big question trumped up in the movie)....and Lois and Superman stare at each other and walk off....leaving us waiting to find out what they're all gonna do about this in a never-to-happen sequel. You're gonna have to deal with all that "boring" parenting responsibility stuff eventually. There was no closure here and made all the anticipation of the reveal pointless to the movie's plot. We should be anticipating the next villain, not how Richard is gonna handle being thrown under the bus Lois and Clark.
I have no special insights on the proper way to end blockbusters. But I take the view that SR is a good drama and an interesting exploration of the superhero archetype. So from that perspective, the soliloquy at the end (and not wordy exposition about shared custody or new family arrangements) was the better dramatic closure to the narrative.

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