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Old 04-12-2012, 10:06 AM   #101
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Default Re: Is Superman Irrelevant To Modern Audiences?

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She did not refuse to marry him...

They were engaged. That means he proposed and she said YES, not 'I refuse'.

She may have had her doubts, but if Superman hadn't come back for another year or so, she'd have married him. Why wouldn't she? He was a really wonderful guy, a great dad and someone who loved her very much.

Of course she still had feelings for Superman. He's not the kind of guy you ever get over. He's absolutely one of a kind.

But this is what happens when someone is gone for a long time and no one knows what happened to them. People move on eventually. They build their lives back up again.

And TBH, she never should forgive him for not saying goodbye. It was despicable behaviour to not tell anyone where he was going. To just fly off, letting everyone believe he could be dead. Not bothering to see Lex's trial through properly.

'Too hard to say goodbye' just doesn't cut it. You gonna be that much of a wimp, fine. Leave a note. Leave a message with someone to let the world and Lois know where he's going.
Yeah that back story of Superman having run off to find his home planet and not telling anyone because it was emotionally difficult seemed completely out of character for Superman.

What do you even call someone who is that emotionally insecure? One who is that socially weak he cannot even tell people when he is leaving town and won't be back for a long time?

Giving Singer 100% creative control of that one allowed it to turn into a Donner spin off fan-fic run amuck.

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Old 04-12-2012, 10:45 AM   #102
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Default Re: Is Superman Irrelevant To Modern Audiences?

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She did not refuse to marry him...

They were engaged. That means he proposed and she said YES, not 'I refuse'.
I'm sorry, that's not true. Unless I'm forgettinmg something really important - that I hope you quote - all we know is what Jimmy says about it:

CLARK KENT: She's married?
JIMMY OLSEN: Yeah, well no, its more of a prolonged engagement, but don't ask Miss Lane when they're tying the knot because she hates that question.

Pretty explicit. She doesn't want to.


When Lois introduces Richard to Clark, she doesn't say "my fiancee," "the man I love" but "an assistant editor here who's basically saved our International section. He's also a pilot and he loves horror movies." Not really love there.

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She may have had her doubts, but if Superman hadn't come back for another year or so, she'd have married him. Why wouldn't she? He was a really wonderful guy, a great dad and someone who loved her very much.
You say she was all happy, ready for marriage, and right then Superman appeared?

Not according to the movie. She hated the idea of marrying Richard before Clark returned to the Planet.

And at this point you probably know that a woman won't love a guy solely because he's a good fellow who loves her very much. In fact, Lois doesn't love him more than she loves Superman even when he left without saying good-bye. That happens all the time, love is not always for the one who deserves it.

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Of course she still had feelings for Superman. He's not the kind of guy you ever get over. He's absolutely one of a kind.

But this is what happens when someone is gone for a long time and no one knows what happened to them. People move on eventually. They build their lives back up again.
You try to move on and build your life back up again. You try.

But, as you say yourself, when there's someone who's "not the kind of guy you ever get over," then you might 'try' but 'achieve' is a different story.

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And TBH, she never should forgive him for not saying goodbye. It was despicable behaviour to not tell anyone where he was going. To just fly off, letting everyone believe he could be dead. Not bothering to see Lex's trial through properly.
Ah, h.s., what we should and what we do in matters of love...

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'Too hard to say goodbye' just doesn't cut it. You gonna be that much of a wimp, fine. Leave a note. Leave a message with someone to let the world and Lois know where he's going.
I totally agree.

I've always said that the story would be the same (and better) if Superman had said good-bye but Lois just didn't accept that Superman put Krypton over her.


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Old 04-12-2012, 10:55 AM   #103
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It's laughable, isn't it? That he went to see if there were survivors and his intentions could have been 'not to save them.'

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He was pretty desperate in SR
Not 'desperately lonely.' He had the Daily Planet workmates and Ma Kent. But if you can find a scene where he is 'desperate' because of loneliless feel feel to link.

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Lex knew how long it took for him to arrive from Krypton to Earth. The scientists who alerted Superman could also have gave him the estimate, the same as Lex's.
Lex and the astronomers could also tell that pieces of planet Krypton could be now big chunks of Kryptonite.

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He decided to quit in SII cause he wanted to be with Lois. He never gave any warning or consideration to the people of Earth when doing it. So what makes you think he wouldn't do it all over again? He couldn't be with the woman he loved on Earth, so he went somewhere else to find companionship.
He went to Krypton to find a girl?

Oh, now I am really going to need you to link me to anythiung in the movie that even suggests that. Your imagination, as fertile as it could be, is not evidence.

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The mere fact he up and left his responsibilities for companionship, twice, tells me he wasn't bothered about Earth that much. Until his mistakes smacked him hard in the face.
First time he left people of Earth (SII) because he wanted his girl.

Second time (SR) was because they could be survivors in Krypton he could rescue.

Go and tell me what's thinking of yourself and what's thiubnking of other living beings.

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Don't you think it's a bit reckless though? How did he not know some time down the line a Kryptonian might get a bit high on his God like powers?
Because every time he saves people, one or more of them could end up being villiains. But that's not going to stop Superman from saving them, right?

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Old 04-12-2012, 11:34 AM   #104
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I'm sorry, that's not true. Unless I'm forgettinmg something really important - that I hope you quote - all we know is what Jimmy says about it:

CLARK KENT: She's married?
JIMMY OLSEN: Yeah, well no, its more of a prolonged engagement, but don't ask Miss Lane when they're tying the knot because she hates that question.

Pretty explicit. She doesn't want to.
.
I'm not sure what your argueing.

All I said is that she didn't refuse to marry Richard.

Whether or not the engagement has been prolonged by her doubts and the fact she was struggling to get over the guy that just up and dissapeared from the world, she did say YES when he proposed. Otherwise they wouldn't be engaged at all...

If she was completely sure she never wanted to marry him ever, why would she have said yes to a proposal? Why would she have become engaged?

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When Lois introduces Richard to Clark, she doesn't say "my fiancee," "the man I love" but "an assistant editor here who's basically saved our International section. He's also a pilot and he loves horror movies." Not really love there.
.
I would actually put that on her being kind to Clark and not rubbing it in his face. She knew he liked her, and she hadn't seen Clark since she was the head strong independant... Now she had a kid and a finance and it must feel really weird saying all that out loud to someone who knew her back then, especially when it all happened so unexpectedly.

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You say she was all happy, ready for marriage, and right then Superman appeared?

Not according to the movie. She hated the idea of marrying Richard before Clark returned to the Planet.
.
First of all, no I didn't say she was all happy and ready for marriage. I said she was having doubts and that she wasn't over Supes. But I do believe she would have married Richard. She would have worked through her issues.

She hated people asking her when she was going to tie the knot, because she wanted to make that full commitment when SHE was ready. It doesn't mean she didn't love him.

If she really didn't love him, she was a complete ***** in that film for stringing the guy along... And I don't think that's what they were going for at all.

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And at this point you probably know that a woman won't love a guy solely because he's a good fellow who loves her very much. In fact, Lois doesn't love him more than she loves Superman even when he left without saying good-bye. That happens all the time, love is not always for the one who deserves it.
I'm not saying she loves Richard more or even as much as Superman. Just that she has been in a relationship with him for the past almost 5 years, and she had been building her life back up with him, planning a future and raising a child with him. You can't say there is no love there.

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You try to move on and build your life back up again. You try.

But, as you say yourself, when there's someone who's "not the kind of guy you ever get over," then you might 'try' but 'achieve' is a different story.

Ah, h.s., what we should and what we do in matters of love...
There are plenty of people in this world that lost their one true love and are forced to move on.

Are you suggesting that none of them ever achieve that because they can't get over their first love?

If he didn't want to loose her, he shouldn't have left, or he should have explained himself properly before he did.

He can't come back after 5 years thinking she would have waited. She's a beautiful and successful woman in her late 20s... Of course she found someone!

And what right does he have to come back, take her flying, stare lovingly into her eyes and hold her close, sharing a moment in which they almost kiss ... When what he knows of the situation is that she has a son with another man.

He doesn't KNOW it's his kid when he does that.

So he is actively romancing someone whose positive response would mean breaking up a family.

And he's acting like this Martyr at the same time. Telling her she was wrong in her article, people are crying out for a saviour. Being all stoic and broody and giving one deadpan apology that wasn't on any personal level IMO. He didn't show any real emotion or conflict, and neither did she. The whole thing was just completely unrealistic and unrelatable because no two people would be like that in that situation.

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I totally agree.

I've always said that the story would be the same (and better) if Superman had said good-bye but Lois just didn't accept that Superman put Krypton over her.
Well at least we can agree on that

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Old 04-12-2012, 11:43 AM   #105
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It's laughable, isn't it? That he went to see if there were survivors and his intentions could have been 'not to save them.'
I thought it was funny the way you said it. Goes to find survivors, only to say
"Good luck with that",
and heading back to Earth
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Not 'desperately lonely.' He had the Daily Planet workmates and Ma Kent. But if you can find a scene where he is 'desperate' because of loneliless feel feel to link.
But even that wasn't enough for him, which is pretty understandable.
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Lex and the astronomers could also tell that pieces of planet Krypton could be now big chunks of Kryptonite.
So, wouldn't Superman think they'd all be dead by now because of exposure?

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He went to Krypton to find a girl?

Oh, now I am really going to need you to link me to anythiung in the movie that even suggests that. Your imagination, as fertile as it could be, is not evidence.
No, he went in order to see if his homeworld had survived in some form. Connecting with his kind, gaining companionship from them. He was pretty bummed from the start, until he found out he had a son, that he was alone. Sure, he was upset he thought he was the last of his kind, but the jist was, he was upset cause he was alone. Even the reassurance from Martha, that he wasn't alone, still wasn't enough. He felt pretty isolated until he found out about Jason. So, Earth, and it's people, really weren't enough for him.

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First time he left people of Earth (SII) because he wanted his girl.

Second time (SR) was because they could be survivors in Krypton he could rescue.

Go and tell me what's thinking of yourself and what's thiubnking of other living beings.
As I said, I believe he went to live among them, not rescue them. If he felt nothing about quiting the first time to be with Lois, why wouldn't he feel nothing about up and leaving forever to live amongst his kind? He wants a connection, be it romantically with Lois on Earth, or friendly with his fellow Kryptonian's on a floating piece of rock

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Because every time he saves people, one or more of them could end up being villiains. But that's not going to stop Superman from saving them, right?
But it's not the same. He would willingly bring God knows how many survivors and hope they would act with good behaviour? It's a pretty reckless move, not much thought going into the consequences. The entire thing was a mess anyways.

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Old 04-12-2012, 01:08 PM   #106
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Lois pretty clearly loves both Richard and Superman. Such things are possible. By the end of the film, she and Superman have begun to move on.

Superman left Earth, and Lois. He did not know she was pregnant. Is it somewhat irresponsible not to make sure? Yes. It is. But more importantly, he left the world behind.

He abandoned his duties as protector of the human race. Being a deadbeat dad doesn't even enter into it. It pales in comparison.

SUPERMAN RETURNS' main failing was not introducing the kid. It was failing to adequately explore THIS issue, the whole "Does the world need Superman, and is it dependant on him?" thing. The film raised some interesting questions, but it didn't explore very many of them. There's a question of duty and obligation to the world VS duty to yourself there that needed to be explored, and wasn't.

Superman was already showing dubious moral decisions before the kid came into the picture. This is the point of the story. To show that despite his power, he had very human needs and was capable of moral failings. He had to rediscover his "super". And being able to make immoral choices makes making moral choices that much more powerful. And eventually he does regain his "super". He sacrifices his life to save billions, and agrees to let Richard and Lois raise Jason, but pledges to be there for his son.

Life is not always black and white, which is what Singer tried to show. He tried to take the boyscout that people have *****ed about, and give him some ambiguity.

But that's not what people who ***** about Superman being a boyscout want. They want Superman to be a boyscout.

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Old 04-12-2012, 01:14 PM   #107
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If he didn't want to loose her, he shouldn't have left, or he should have explained himself properly before he did.

He can't come back after 5 years thinking she would have waited. She's a beautiful and successful woman in her late 20s... Of course she found someone!

And what right does he have to come back, take her flying, stare lovingly into her eyes and hold her close, sharing a moment in which they almost kiss ... When what he knows of the situation is that she has a son with another man.
That scene is working on two levels: text and subtext. The text is about Superman apologizing for leaving without a good-bye or an explanation. Then the explanation is offered – the line about “You wrote that the world doesn’t need a savior; but everyday I hear people crying for one.” That takes us into subtext. He can’t make a full and normal relationship with Lois work while being a full-time savior. (If you’re inclined to connect SR with SII [I’m not] it’s a continuation of the same theme that motivated the infamous “amnesia kiss.”) And yet his desire for a personal - human - connection hasn’t disappeared. It’s what precipitated his quixotic trek to Krypton - for “home." So Supes is basically saying that although he did it badly, their break-up was inevitable. The hero doesn’t get to live a normal life. This is the proper “good-bye scene” that should have happened – but did not - before he left.

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And he's acting like this Martyr at the same time. Telling her she was wrong in her article, people are crying out for a saviour. Being all stoic and broody and giving one deadpan apology that wasn't on any personal level IMO. He didn't show any real emotion or conflict, and neither did she. The whole thing was just completely unrealistic and unrelatable because no two people would be like that in that situation.
Really? Seems to me that drama (and real life too) is chock-full of regrets, missed opportunities and problems that could have been avoided but for better, more honest communication. I can wholeheartedly relate. Count your blessings if you've managed to avoid these all-too-human problems.

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Old 04-12-2012, 01:34 PM   #108
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*Sigh* All this SR talk....

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Old 04-12-2012, 01:37 PM   #109
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Lois pretty clearly loves both Richard and Superman. Such things are possible. By the end of the film, she and Superman have begun to move on.

Superman left Earth, and Lois. He did not know she was pregnant. Is it somewhat irresponsible not to make sure? Yes. It is. But more importantly, he left the world behind.

He abandoned his duties as protector of the human race. Being a deadbeat dad doesn't even enter into it. It pales in comparison.

SUPERMAN RETURNS' main failing was not introducing the kid. It was failing to adequately explore THIS issue, the whole "Does the world need Superman, and is it dependant on him?" thing. The film raised some interesting questions, but it didn't explore very many of them. There's a question of duty and obligation to the world VS duty to yourself there that needed to be explored, and wasn't.

Superman was already showing dubious moral decisions before the kid came into the picture. This is the point of the story. To show that despite his power, he had very human needs and was capable of moral failings. He had to rediscover his "super". And being able to make immoral choices makes making moral choices that much more powerful. And eventually he does regain his "super". He sacrifices his life to save billions, and agrees to let Richard and Lois raise Jason, but pledges to be there for his son.

Life is not always black and white, which is what Singer tried to show. He tried to take the boyscout that people have *****ed about, and give him some ambiguity.

But that's not what people who ***** about Superman being a boyscout want. They want Superman to be a boyscout.
There's too much truth here, but since you're not *****ing about the donner ties or whether or not clark is acting geeky, as if they have a profound effect on this movie's actual quality, this will be ignored.

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Old 04-12-2012, 01:40 PM   #110
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That scene is working on two levels: text and subtext. The text is about Superman apologizing for leaving without a good-bye or an explanation. Then the explanation is offered – the line about “You wrote that the world doesn’t need a savior; but everyday I hear people crying for one.” That takes us into subtext. He can’t make a full and normal relationship with Lois work while being a full-time savior. (If you’re inclined to connect SR with SII [I’m not] it’s a continuation of the same theme that motivated the infamous “amnesia kiss.”) And yet his desire for a personal - human - connection hasn’t disappeared. It’s what precipitated his quixotic trek to Krypton - for “home." So Supes is basically saying that although he did it badly, their break-up was inevitable. The hero doesn’t get to live a normal life. This is the proper “good-bye scene” that should have happened – but did not - before he left.

Really? Seems to me that drama (and real life too) is chock-full of regrets, missed opportunities and problems that could have been avoided but for better, more honest communication. I can wholeheartedly relate. Count your blessings if you've managed to avoid these all-too-human problems.
I'm saying that the way they acted was unrealistically calm and unemotional.

Not that the situation of having an old love come back into your life is unrelatable.

There was just no feeling of drama there. And yet that's what they seemed to be trying to create.

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Old 04-12-2012, 07:36 PM   #111
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Lois pretty clearly loves both Richard and Superman. Such things are possible. By the end of the film, she and Superman have begun to move on.

Superman left Earth, and Lois. He did not know she was pregnant. Is it somewhat irresponsible not to make sure? Yes. It is. But more importantly, he left the world behind.

He abandoned his duties as protector of the human race. Being a deadbeat dad doesn't even enter into it. It pales in comparison.

SUPERMAN RETURNS' main failing was not introducing the kid. It was failing to adequately explore THIS issue, the whole "Does the world need Superman, and is it dependant on him?" thing. The film raised some interesting questions, but it didn't explore very many of them. There's a question of duty and obligation to the world VS duty to yourself there that needed to be explored, and wasn't.

Superman was already showing dubious moral decisions before the kid came into the picture. This is the point of the story. To show that despite his power, he had very human needs and was capable of moral failings. He had to rediscover his "super". And being able to make immoral choices makes making moral choices that much more powerful. And eventually he does regain his "super". He sacrifices his life to save billions, and agrees to let Richard and Lois raise Jason, but pledges to be there for his son.

Life is not always black and white, which is what Singer tried to show. He tried to take the boyscout that people have *****ed about, and give him some ambiguity.

But that's not what people who ***** about Superman being a boyscout want. They want Superman to be a boyscout.

Singer tried to make Superman a regular guy with average moral character because he feels that's the only way to make audiences relate to him. Singer tried to make him an X-man. It failed. Superman isn't an X-man. He's the standbearer for all superheroes. What's the point of Superman if he's just like everyone else? That's what Singer didn't understand. He can't make strong alpha type, traditional, upright heroes like Cyclops, Superman, or Storm because he can't relate to those individuals.

I don't know much about Snyder...he seems to be an style over substance director. But if we get some solid writing and production from Nolan team, this movie has some potential.

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Old 04-12-2012, 07:41 PM   #112
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I'm sorry, that's not true. Unless I'm forgettinmg something really important - that I hope you quote - all we know is what Jimmy says about it:

CLARK KENT: She's married?
JIMMY OLSEN: Yeah, well no, its more of a prolonged engagement, but don't ask Miss Lane when they're tying the knot because she hates that question.

Pretty explicit. She doesn't want to.
Hesitant about commitment <> Refusing to marry him. I agree with hopefulsuicide, if Superman had never returned, she would have walked down the wedding aisle with him. She just needed time to get over it.

I admit though I don't really like the thought of Lois just hitching along with some guy who she thinks if father of her child.

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I've always said that the story would be the same (and better) if Superman had said good-bye but Lois just didn't accept that Superman put Krypton over her.
That would have been a marginally better film if Superman at least confronted Lois. The fact that he was so cowardly makes the film such a failure.


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Old 04-13-2012, 11:56 AM   #113
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I admit though I don't really like the thought of Lois just hitching along with some guy who she thinks [is the] father of her child.
There’s no indication that Lois is not fully aware of Jason’s paternity. And while Richard may not know who the biological father is, he knows it’s not him.

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Old 04-13-2012, 11:58 AM   #114
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*Sigh* All this SR talk....
Apologies. Let's get back to the "relevancy" issue. We were so close to a resolution on that.

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Old 04-13-2012, 12:34 PM   #115
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There’s no indication that Lois is not fully aware of Jason’s paternity. And while Richard may not know who the biological father is, he knows it’s not him.

If we look at SR carefully, it becomes clear that much is going on in the movie that is not stated obviously or even shown on screen, many people hate this kind of approach but I think that it works with heroes like Superman and batman.

In case of SR, director wanted the viewers to read between the scenes, there are many scenes where visuals or some acts alludes to certain point that is embedded withing the context of the movie's theme.

take for example the scene where Ma Kent is waiting for the news of Superman , who is fighting for his life inside the Hospital, yet she cannot go and visit him, the superficial reason being that if she reveals that Supes is her son, then she will give away his secret identity but on a deeper level the reason is that Superman belongs to general public, he is people's hero.

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Old 04-13-2012, 12:54 PM   #116
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No offense to anyone, but I can't stand when people dismiss criticism of Superman Returns or any other film by arguing that "we don't get what's going on."

It is possible Richard doesn't know who the father of the child is, but that makes the lack of communication between Richard and Lois so bizarre. Why would Richard be ok with be ignorant of biological father of Jason? Wouldn't he suspect that Superman could be the father once he returned?

If Lois thinks Superman is the father of her child, it seems surreal she would not have mentioned something to Superman earlier in their first meet-up. However, I guess this lack of conversation only continues until the very end where Superm and Lois glance at each other and he flies off into the distance.

What a really cold movie.

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Old 04-13-2012, 01:43 PM   #117
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If what is known/conjectured about MAN OF STEEL hadn't been discussed to death, and anything new was known to discuss, I'm sure people would be doing o.

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Singer tried to make Superman a regular guy with average moral character because he feels that's the only way to make audiences relate to him. Singer tried to make him an X-man. It failed. Superman isn't an X-man. He's the standbearer for all superheroes. What's the point of Superman if he's just like everyone else? That's what Singer didn't understand. He can't make strong alpha type, traditional, upright heroes like Cyclops, Superman, or Storm because he can't relate to those individuals.
Not really. Singer did just the opposite. He tried to point that Superman can't be a regular guy, though he may wish to be. Because of his powers, he has some serious choices to make that affect his ability to live anything resembling a normal life, and that will affect the ones he loves.

What wasn't upright about Cyclops and Storm?

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I don't know much about Snyder...he seems to be an style over substance director. But if we get some solid writing and production from Nolan team, this movie has some potential.
He's very much a director interesting in both style and substance.

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for example the scene where Ma Kent is waiting for the news of Superman , who is fighting for his life inside the Hospital, yet she cannot go and visit him, the superficial reason being that if she reveals that Supes is her son, then she will give away his secret identity but on a deeper level the reason is that Superman belongs to general public, he is people's hero.
It's stuff like this that really elevates SUPERMAN RETURNS.

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It is possible Richard doesn't know who the father of the child is, but that makes the lack of communication between Richard and Lois so bizarre. Why would Richard be ok with be ignorant of biological father of Jason? Wouldn't he suspect that Superman could be the father once he returned?
I'm fairly certain Richard doesn't know Jason isn't his yet. There's really nothing to indicate otherwise.

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If Lois thinks Superman is the father of her child, it seems surreal she would not have mentioned something to Superman earlier in their first meet-up. However, I guess this lack of conversation only continues until the very end where Superm and Lois glance at each other and he flies off into the distance.

What a really cold movie.
She didn't know he wasn't hers during their first meet up. Lois clearly doesn't know that Jason is her son until he displays super powers. This is made pretty obvious.

The first chance she has to see Superman after she finds out is when they're being saved from drowning. Then Superman immediately sends them to safety and returns to battle Luthor. The next time they meet, he is dying, and she saves him. It's not the time to have a "By the way, he's your son" moment, when she's barely had time to process it herself.

There's nothing cold about that.

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Old 04-13-2012, 01:54 PM   #118
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In SR, Superman realizes his mistake (that is - he left Earth without saying goodbye to Lois)

So, in the scene in the Richard's plane, after Lois removes a big chunk of Kryptonite knife embedded in the Supes' back, Superman says "Goodbye Lois" before flying up to recharge in the Sun as he knows that he may not survive after lifting an Island filled with Kryptonite rocks.

I would say that this is character development in the third act of the movie.

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Old 04-13-2012, 02:23 PM   #119
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Originally Posted by Bruce_Begins View Post
In SR, Superman realizes his mistake (that is - he left Earth without saying goodbye to Lois)

So, in the scene in the Richard's plane, after Lois removes a big chunk of Kryptonite knife embedded in the Supes' back, Superman says "Goodbye Lois" before flying up to recharge in the Sun as he knows that he may not survive after lifting an Island filled with Kryptonite rocks.

I would say that this is character development in the third act of the movie.
It is but I would say that is very very minor.

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Old 04-13-2012, 03:58 PM   #120
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No offense to anyone, but I can't stand when people dismiss criticism of Superman Returns or any other film by arguing that "we don't get what's going on."
Even as a fan of SR, I can appreciate criticism along the lines of misdirected emphasis (too much thematic nuance at the expense of action [or fun?], etc.). But if someone misrepresents a plot detail to buttress a negative view, it’s not out of place to offer a correction.

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It is possible Richard doesn't know who the father of the child is, but that makes the lack of communication between Richard and Lois so bizarre. Why would Richard be ok with be ignorant of biological father of Jason? Wouldn't he suspect that Superman could be the father once he returned?

If Lois thinks Superman is the father of her child, it seems surreal she would not have mentioned something to Superman earlier in their first meet-up. However, I guess this lack of conversation only continues until the very end where Superman and Lois glance at each other and he flies off into the distance.
Unless you think Lois is the type of woman who sleeps around a lot and is unable to keep track of who the possible father might be, it seems reasonable to assume that Lois knows. And the “first meet-up” was at the DP rooftop. Lois dropped hints (to the audience, at least) like: “How could you leave us like that? I moved on. So did the rest of us.” (Obviously, readable on multiple levels.) But she was not ready, then, to disclose the news about Jason. Typically this is done at a more dramatic moment. And as a narrative device, it’s not unheard of. TVTropes has a whole list of them (from literature, films, TV - and even comics):

“Finding out parentage in a story can be shocking to characters, but so is finding out they are a parent. A character comes along, and suddenly turns out to be either a long lost child or a child a character never knew he had…” (for obvious reasons, the surprised "new" parent is usually male).

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Old 04-13-2012, 05:50 PM   #121
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There’s no indication that Lois is not fully aware of Jason’s paternity. And while Richard may not know who the biological father is, he knows it’s not him.
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Originally Posted by SentinelMind View Post
If Lois thinks Superman is the father of her child, it seems surreal she would not have mentioned something to Superman earlier in their first meet-up. However, I guess this lack of conversation only continues until the very end where Superm and Lois glance at each other and he flies off into the distance.

What a really cold movie.
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She didn't know he wasn't his during their first meet up. Lois clearly doesn't know that Jason is her son until he displays super powers. This is made pretty obvious.

The first chance she has to see Superman after she finds out is when they're being saved from drowning. Then Superman immediately sends them to safety and returns to battle Luthor. The next time they meet, he is dying, and she saves him. It's not the time to have a "By the way, he's your son" moment, when she's barely had time to process it herself.

There's nothing cold about that.
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Unless you think Lois is the type of woman who sleeps around a lot and is unable to keep track of who the possible father might be, it seems reasonable to assume that Lois knows.
I really don't know what to say to all of this except that a good movie should have a detail that important be very clear... not completely unclear.

Let's ignore for a minute the fact that if this is a sequel to Superman 2, she shouldn't remember sleeping with him and therefore would NOT think that Jason was Superman's son. Because I know some people insist it's NOT a direct sequel, and that's fine.

But there is absolutely no clarity on who knows what at any point during the film.

No one says it out loud.

We don't even know when Richard and Lois started seeing each other.

But let's assume they got together almost immediately after Superman left. Then it's plausible that maybe she wasn't sure who the father was until that moment on the boat when he threw a piano across the room.

OR she knew very well but she was lying to Richard and wasn't sure whether to come out with the truth now Superman was back.

OR Richard knew Jason wasn't his but had adopted him, and just didn't know Superman was the father...

Now you can claim to interepret certain lines to be 'signs' and you can put reason and logic on the information we DO have in order to try and logic out what is the most probable truth here...

But why are we doing that?

Because the story isn't well written. They left it vague. They didn't bother actually explain it.

And that makes it very 'unreal' to me.

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Old 04-14-2012, 09:00 AM   #122
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But there is absolutely no clarity on who knows what at any point during the film.
Well…

Richard is a good man. He and Lois are good parents to Jason. Richard is not Jason’s biological father. Lois still loves the man who is.

Those are the basics you need to know – and they’re not especially confusing or ambiguous.

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Old 04-14-2012, 09:03 AM   #123
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Default Re: Is Superman Irrelevant To Modern Audiences?

My head hurts now

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Old 04-14-2012, 09:22 AM   #124
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Well…

Richard is a good man. He and Lois are good parents to Jason. Richard is not Jason’s biological father. Lois still loves the man who is.

Those are the basics you need to know – and they’re not especially confusing or ambiguous.
That really doesn't address any of what I said though, does it...

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I think back to my father. As a farmer, he had a natural understanding for the Earth. I remember him telling me this world is capable of providing for all its creatures. Even now, with so many more people, there exists enough food for everyone.

"The problem," Pa used to say, "is people. As far back as we go, we've always had problems with sharing. Seems everyone's too busy holding on to what they've got to care how their neighbors are doing."


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Old 04-14-2012, 09:23 AM   #125
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My head hurts now
Damn you SR, now you've given Rodrigo a headache! Is there no end to the misery you cause!


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I think back to my father. As a farmer, he had a natural understanding for the Earth. I remember him telling me this world is capable of providing for all its creatures. Even now, with so many more people, there exists enough food for everyone.

"The problem," Pa used to say, "is people. As far back as we go, we've always had problems with sharing. Seems everyone's too busy holding on to what they've got to care how their neighbors are doing."


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