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Old 06-20-2012, 10:15 PM   #351
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Default Re: Characters you'd like to see in future Avengers movies?

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Originally Posted by cherokeesam View Post
A movie that already features ancient gods chucking lightning bolts, aliens on jetcycles, big green monsters that can knock down skyscrapers, and an ubervillain who can wipe out entire galaxies with a casual wave of his gauntleted fist....?

Yeah. They can say "she's a witch."
That's not how it works, but you already know what I'm going to say about 'earning' the audience's appreciation, and the consequences of not doing so. If Magic exists in the MCU, it will be built up, it will have rules and limits that are expressed in the narrative and emotional value to the audience.

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They really can't just go into a respected movie and say "she's a witch"
This.

Movies and TV shows jump the shark all the time by throwing random things in they haven't earned from the audience. "We've seen Fonzie do crazy thing X and crazy thing Y... we can have him jump over a shark on a motorcycle." Wrong, wrong, WRONG.

This.

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Old 06-20-2012, 10:51 PM   #352
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Default Re: Characters you'd like to see in future Avengers movies?

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That's not how it works, but you already know what I'm going to say about 'earning' the audience's appreciation, and the consequences of not doing so. If Magic exists in the MCU, it will be built up, it will have rules and limits that are expressed in the narrative and emotional value to the audience.



This.

Movies and TV shows jump the shark all the time by throwing random things in they haven't earned from the audience. "We've seen Fonzie do crazy thing X and crazy thing Y... we can have him jump over a shark on a motorcycle." Wrong, wrong, WRONG.

This.
Oh, come on.
The "rules and limits" are that it's a wide-open superhero universe, and the audience is fully expecting this, because that's what superhero comics are. Aliens, mutants, monsters, magic, advanced technology, time travel, outer space, undead, demons from hell, ancient gods.....it's a mixing pot of all spec fic, and the audience comes into this damn well knowing it. Like the poster above said, people are already used to magic in the real world through shows like Charmed and Buffy and Angel, and plenty of movies that follow the same formula.

It's not like somebody's gonna sit there and seriously say: "Okay, I believed in the ancient Norse gods flying around shooting lightning bolts out their asses, and the aliens flying in through the interdimensional portal on their little jetbikes, and the guy who morphs into a giant green unstoppable monster, and the dude on the flaming Harley with the burning skull riding out of hell, and the vampire fighting hordes of enemy vampires trying to conquer earth, and the blind guy with radar vision, and the alien with the shiny surfboard who's working for the giant alien who eats planets, and the guy whose cracker-jack ring can conjure up anything he wants as long as it's green, and the teenagers who can shoot lightning bolts and fireballs out of their eyes and teleport all over creation......but magic?!?!? No sirree, that just crossed the line of my willing suspension of disbelief. I'm outta here --- they've got a marathon of 'Supernatural' on BBC TV I need to go catch up on"

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Old 06-21-2012, 12:37 AM   #353
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Default Re: Characters you'd like to see in future Avengers movies?

without a doubt, Vision absolutely positively needs to be in the mix, with followups by Quicksilver, Henry Pym, the Scarlet Witch and the Panther...

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Old 06-21-2012, 03:48 AM   #354
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Default Re: Characters you'd like to see in future Avengers movies?

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Oh, come on.
The "rules and limits" are that it's a wide-open superhero universe, and the audience is fully expecting this, because that's what superhero comics are. Aliens, mutants, monsters, magic, advanced technology, time travel, outer space, undead, demons from hell, ancient gods.....it's a mixing pot of all spec fic, and the audience comes into this damn well knowing it. Like the poster above said, people are already used to magic in the real world through shows like Charmed and Buffy and Angel, and plenty of movies that follow the same formula.
It's not wide open. You only see it that way because you read and enjoy comics. The general audience doesn't know comics contains all that stuff, so they are definitely not expecting it. They would absolutely convulse if aliens showed up in X-Men. Shows like Charmed and Buffy and Angel spend a lot of time putting rules and limits on magic, because that's how good stories are told.

At no point does successful storytelling which has allowed the audience to accept all those things, free you from the responsibility of storytelling. You have to earn every drop, you don't get to say 'I've done enough storytelling now, I can just throw in anything and people will accept it just like the things I earned from them.' That's just not how it works. Jaded adults will never be as accepting as imaginative youngsters. No free lunches.

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It's not like somebody's gonna sit there and seriously say: "Okay, I believed in the ancient Norse gods flying around shooting lightning bolts out their asses, and the aliens flying in through the interdimensional portal on their little jetbikes, and the guy who morphs into a giant green unstoppable monster, and the dude on the flaming Harley with the burning skull riding out of hell, and the vampire fighting hordes of enemy vampires trying to conquer earth, and the blind guy with radar vision, and the alien with the shiny surfboard who's working for the giant alien who eats planets, and the guy whose cracker-jack ring can conjure up anything he wants as long as it's green, and the teenagers who can shoot lightning bolts and fireballs out of their eyes and teleport all over creation......but magic?!?!? No sirree, that just crossed the line of my willing suspension of disbelief. I'm outta here --- they've got a marathon of 'Supernatural' on BBC TV I need to go catch up on"
Who said anything about suspension of disbelief? Do you think people thought Fonzie was incapable of jumping over a shark? Or that the crew who had done so many hijinks, were somehow incapable of acquiring the marine animal? The issue is that when you introduce something radical that doesn't mesh emotionally with the characters and the story, the audience ceases to care about either. Green Lantern didn't fail because his powers are hard to understand, it failed because the audience didn't care about his powers. He had the power to solve all his problems, so... where's the tension? Why should I root for this guy who has it all and is just moping around for vague reasons?

The reaction you would get for "She's a witch" is more like:

"Okay, what do they need the rest of the team for, can't she just magic away the bad guys or summon soldiers to fight for them or something? ... Why didn't she just use her magic to fix that?... She tried??? She's a witch, try harder, try again! This is stupid. I'm going to tweet about it."

Unless of course, you take the time to set up the rules and limits for her abilities, create the visual cues that let the audience know when she is struggling, waning and when she is unable to do any more, in a way that doesn't have to again be explained later and can be a purely emotional experience. But "She's a witch" won't get r done. Only storytelling will.

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Old 06-21-2012, 05:11 AM   #355
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Oh, come on.
The "rules and limits" are that it's a wide-open superhero universe, and the audience is fully expecting this, because that's what superhero comics are. Aliens, mutants, monsters, magic, advanced technology, time travel, outer space, undead, demons from hell, ancient gods.....it's a mixing pot of all spec fic, and the audience comes into this damn well knowing it. Like the poster above said, people are already used to magic in the real world through shows like Charmed and Buffy and Angel, and plenty of movies that follow the same formula.

It's not like somebody's gonna sit there and seriously say: "Okay, I believed in the ancient Norse gods flying around shooting lightning bolts out their asses, and the aliens flying in through the interdimensional portal on their little jetbikes, and the guy who morphs into a giant green unstoppable monster, and the dude on the flaming Harley with the burning skull riding out of hell, and the vampire fighting hordes of enemy vampires trying to conquer earth, and the blind guy with radar vision, and the alien with the shiny surfboard who's working for the giant alien who eats planets, and the guy whose cracker-jack ring can conjure up anything he wants as long as it's green, and the teenagers who can shoot lightning bolts and fireballs out of their eyes and teleport all over creation......but magic?!?!? No sirree, that just crossed the line of my willing suspension of disbelief. I'm outta here --- they've got a marathon of 'Supernatural' on BBC TV I need to go catch up on"

Whoa! Think we all got served! (I agree with you by the way).

As for people who say it's too easy, you're ruling out a lot of good storytelling potential. Wanda is incredibly powerful but also incredibly volatile. That's something that makes her fasinating as a team member.

I remember when people started talking about an Avengers movie people said 'oh it's no good. They're too powerful. They can't be challenged properly' and as we can see from that if you carry on the human emotion and develop the characters then anything is possible. I mean, magic worked in the Harry Potter films I daresay!

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Old 06-21-2012, 09:17 AM   #356
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Whoa! Think we all got served! (I agree with you by the way).

As for people who say it's too easy, you're ruling out a lot of good storytelling potential. Wanda is incredibly powerful but also incredibly volatile. That's something that makes her fasinating as a team member.

I remember when people started talking about an Avengers movie people said 'oh it's no good. They're too powerful. They can't be challenged properly' and as we can see from that if you carry on the human emotion and develop the characters then anything is possible. I mean, magic worked in the Harry Potter films I daresay!
It'd be interesting if you guys had examples of magic in a sci-fi setting that was popular. Mixing these two anti-thetical genres has never been done successfully outside of comics, afaik.

Besides that, Harry Potter is another excellent example of my point. They made sure that it was clear, Harry knew only these spell effects and he had a casting time... and needed his wand. All this was shown visually, not explained in boring dialogue. Limits, so later in the story, his wand is just... out... of ... reach! Now you have tension, now you have a good story. He tries to cast as spell, but they cast it first! Wow, I guess he can't fix everything, he can be out done. And no one has to wonder why he didn't just X Y or Z, because you know exactly what he can and can't do. That's good storytelling. All the successful magic shows do it.

And whoever said the Avengers couldn't be challenged were quickly and instantly refuted, with things like numbers and superior foes. And indeed, that's what the movie did. It wouldn't have mattered how emotionally well the characters were written if Loki was not capable of wiping the floor with them like he did. The intellectual side of a good film is set up to support the emotional side of the film, not to honor the comics, not to get as many characters in as possible, but to make the movie better by supporting the heart of the film.

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Old 06-21-2012, 09:34 AM   #357
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It's not wide open. You only see it that way because you read and enjoy comics. The general audience doesn't know comics contains all that stuff
lolwtf
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so they are definitely not expecting it. They would absolutely convulse if aliens showed up in X-Men
lolwtf Brood/Phalanx/Sh'iar

Now you're just being silly, Doc. You and all of us know damn well that general audiences know that superhero is a catch-all genre for sci-fi, fantasy, horror and all other speculative fiction.

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Shows like Charmed and Buffy and Angel spend a lot of time putting rules and limits on magic, because that's how good stories are told.
At no point does successful storytelling which has allowed the audience to accept all those things, free you from the responsibility of storytelling.
Nobody said Wanda's magic was unlimited. *Of course* she'll have limits to her powers, just like any other superhero. Or witch.

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Old 06-21-2012, 11:30 AM   #358
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Now you're just being silly, Doc. You and all of us know damn well that general audiences know that superhero is a catch-all genre for sci-fi, fantasy, horror and all other speculative fiction.
You're the one laughing because you think the general audience is familiar with the Brood/Phalanx/Shiar. I on the contrary am being quite serious. It's in comics, yes, we know that, but the audience has no reason to expect it, any more than they expected aliens in Indiana Jones movies. New concept that doesn't vibe emotionally with their expectation of that particular franchise = super turn off. Yes, they accept superhero as a wide open genre (minus magic and fantasy, they've never seen that), that doesn't mean that they think of each movie as wide open in terms of what's possible in that universe. Same with the action genre. Could be action fantasy, could be action with robots, but when you start having robots fighting wizards, the audience just balks, they don't say 'well, it was like that in the comics I've never heard of, so now I care about it.'

Marvel knows this, so when they created a movie universe, they made it all sci-fi. That's the only way it works because in the audience's mind everything does not go together just because they've seen it separately. Now you can add magic onto that if you do it smart and carefully, but there's no excuse for bad storytelling, or making assumptions about the audience's knowledge of and care for the universe you're building.

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Nobody said Wanda's magic was unlimited. *Of course* she'll have limits to her powers, just like any other superhero. Or witch.
So, then you agree, they can't just say "She's a witch" and move on, they have to set limits to her powers just like every other superhero. Or heroic witch. I'm glad we cleared that up.

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Old 06-21-2012, 11:47 AM   #359
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Default Re: Characters you'd like to see in future Avengers movies?

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lolwtf
lolwtf Brood/Phalanx/Sh'iar

Now you're just being silly, Doc. You and all of us know damn well that general audiences know that superhero is a catch-all genre for sci-fi, fantasy, horror and all other speculative fiction.
If that's the case, we'd better damn well start having some musicals, oscar-winning dramas, rom-coms, political thrillers etc. The Marvel universe should be broad enough to encompass those genres.

We could get a Driving Miss Daisy/ On Golden Pond style drama with Aunt May and Uncle Ben.

Or a road trip movie with Wonder Man and Beast (unfortunately Fox prevents that)

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Old 06-21-2012, 12:35 PM   #360
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You're the one laughing because you think the general audience is familiar with the Brood/Phalanx/Shiar. I on the contrary am being quite serious. It's in comics, yes, we know that, but the audience has no reason to expect it, any more than they expected aliens in Indiana Jones movies. New concept that doesn't vibe emotionally with their expectation of that particular franchise = super turn off. Yes, they accept superhero as a wide open genre (minus magic and fantasy, they've never seen that), that doesn't mean that they think of each movie as wide open in terms of what's possible in that universe. Same with the action genre. Could be action fantasy, could be action with robots, but when you start having robots fighting wizards, the audience just balks, they don't say 'well, it was like that in the comics I've never heard of, so now I care about it.'

Marvel knows this, so when they created a movie universe, they made it all sci-fi. That's the only way it works because in the audience's mind everything does not go together just because they've seen it separately. Now you can add magic onto that if you do it smart and carefully, but there's no excuse for bad storytelling, or making assumptions about the audience's knowledge of and care for the universe you're building.



So, then you agree, they can't just say "She's a witch" and move on, they have to set limits to her powers just like every other superhero. Or heroic witch. I'm glad we cleared that up.
Indiana Jones belongs to the pulp genre. Nobody was particularly expecting aliens, but good god, man, the trilogy was FULL of wide-open magic; why would anyone balk at aliens after seeing demons and angels and immortal knights....?

The SUPERHERO genre is open to ALL spec fic. NOT just sci-fi, and the MCU hasn't limited that, either. Thor is living proof of that.

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Old 06-21-2012, 02:48 PM   #361
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The SUPERHERO genre is open to ALL spec fic. NOT just sci-fi, and the MCU hasn't limited that, either. Thor is living proof of that.
yeeeeeah but they were still pressured to give a scientific (and thus, believable) explanation for Thor. I actually think you can give a sci-fi explanation for Scarlet Witch's magic--unfortunately the MCU can't mention her status as a mutant. Up to this point, the MCU has been able to stay somewhat close to the "realism" established by Jon Favreau's Iron Man.

It's Doctor Strange who is going to blow the doors wide open.

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Old 06-24-2012, 02:33 AM   #362
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I think the best way to do Wanda and Quicksilver given they're stripped of their origins a bit is to use Wundagore and the High Evolutionary as an explanation for Wanda and Pietro's powers. This would give it a little more Science.

I ultimately feel like the Maximoff twins fall in the same category as Vision, in that they might be overly complicated in their origins, and not able to really sustain solo movies. It's tough to introduce characters like that, because you don't want them gobbling up tons of screen time in Avengers 2 with their origins.

I think we're ultimately going to see Avengers members with more easily digestible origins, and more solo film potential make their way into the Avengers. Characters like Black Panther and Namor who have a far better chance of holding down a solo film, and can sort of stand alone. The Pyms could work too. It's easier to go with characters that have less tangled origins in these movies.

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Old 06-24-2012, 02:43 AM   #363
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Yeah, Wanda and Pietro are hard enough to adapt just being crossover characters; they're totally essential to the X-Men mythos just as their totally essential to the Avengers mythos. And that's before you get into all the crazy Wundagore stuff that really gives their backgrounds the Marvel touch.

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Old 06-24-2012, 02:54 AM   #364
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Yeah, Wanda and Pietro are hard enough to adapt just being crossover characters; they're totally essential to the X-Men mythos just as their totally essential to the Avengers mythos. And that's before you get into all the crazy Wundagore stuff that really gives their backgrounds the Marvel touch.
Very true. That's some rich stuff. That 70's Avengers was awesome.

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Old 06-24-2012, 03:28 AM   #365
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Very true. That's some rich stuff. That 70's Avengers was awesome.
It's definitely awesome, just really hard to adapt. So many major Avengers (The Maximoff Twins, Wonder Man, Vision, Ms. Marvel) need one or two movies just to set up.

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Old 06-24-2012, 07:57 AM   #366
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That's why I say it's a helluva lot easier to just make Wanda a "real" witch. GA who don't know Wanda Maximoff from Lady Gaga would almost automatically assume a heroine named "Scarlet Witch" would be, you know...a witch. Despite Dr. Cosmic's baffling inability to accept working magic in the framework of a no-holds-barred superhero genre, I strongly, strongly doubt anyone in the rest of the audience would have any problem with that. "Oh hey, she's a witch? Like in Charmed? Oh cool."

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Old 06-24-2012, 11:17 AM   #367
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Indiana Jones belongs to the pulp genre. Nobody was particularly expecting aliens, but good god, man, the trilogy was FULL of wide-open magic; why would anyone balk at aliens after seeing demons and angels and immortal knights....?
So, you understand that they did balk at aliens after seeing immortal knights and such, even in the Pulp genre, which certainly had aliens in it? And you understand that you don't understand why?

The reason they balked, the reason they stopped caring about Indiana Jones, is because narratives hang on tension, any supernatural ability on the side of the hero threatens to disrupt that tension, unless it is implicitly limited and balanced. One of the unspoken implicit rules is that 'this is the only supernatural stuff in the universe.' This way, the audience knows the hero isn't going to suddenly develop vampiric abilities, or hex magic, or find a genie. When you break this, unspoken rule, when there is a different type of supernatural that occurs, you create two negative effects: 1) you threaten the narrative tension, since now, anything can happen, therefore, there's no implicit reason for the hero not to come up with new powers relatively on the fly as needed like Silver Age superman and 2) you dilute the focus of the movie, not only removing someone's ability to summarize it in one line, but like a comedy/drama/action/romance/sports movie, you can give the effect of something that doesn't know what it wants to be. It's not about anything because it's about everything.

This is why you NEVER see two types of supernatural in the same movie. (Edit: I'm sure there's some, but not popular/good/mainstream movies). If MCU can pull it off, it will be an incredible feat, not something easy, not something to be taken for granted, and not even guaranteed to be possible. Most likely though, they'll explain it via science somehow either hinting that the other dimensional beings are just advanced aliens, or use some physics mumbo-jump like Sorcerer's Apprentice.

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The SUPERHERO genre is open to ALL spec fic. NOT just sci-fi, and the MCU hasn't limited that, either. Thor is living proof of that.
Thor is actually living proof that the MCU right now is just sci-fi, which is why 'magic' is science and 'gods' are aliens, and they keep hammering that in. There would have been known reason to do this if the story had been wide open. Just because you can make magic superhero movies (even though its never been done) doesn't mean you can throw magic in Amazing Spider-Man and people won't get turned off.

Ghost Rider is the movie that's living proof that the superhero genre is wide open.

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That's why I say it's a helluva lot easier to just make Wanda a "real" witch. GA who don't know Wanda Maximoff from Lady Gaga would almost automatically assume a heroine named "Scarlet Witch" would be, you know...a witch. Despite Dr. Cosmic's baffling inability to accept working magic in the framework of a no-holds-barred superhero genre, I strongly, strongly doubt anyone in the rest of the audience would have any problem with that. "Oh hey, she's a witch? Like in Charmed? Oh cool."
I've explained why the genre being open is different from every individual story being wide open. If all you see is me not accepting it, then the conversation is obviously not moving forward. And most of the audience has not seen charmed. Try "Oh, like Harry Potter?" (And then they're going to be wondering how powerful she is and what spells she has, and it will affect the tension for the rest of the film).

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Yes, they accept superhero as a wide open genre (minus magic and fantasy, they've never seen that), that doesn't mean that they think of each movie as wide open in terms of what's possible in that universe.

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Old 06-24-2012, 07:14 PM   #368
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Default Re: Characters you'd like to see in future Avengers movies?

So, Doc.....you're going to ragequit Marvel Studios when Dr. Strange comes out, then....?

Because, you know, Dr. Strange is ALL about magic. And no, not some Clarke's Law "magic and science are the same thing" kind of magic. We're talking spellbooks. Enchanted items. Demon familiars. Astral planes. Wards and glyphs and runes. You know, pure World of Warcraft/ Skyrim magic. And guess what? It's going to coexist in the MCU right alongside all the pseudo-science that you think somehow makes the Marvel movies more realistic and less fantastic.

What *will* you do when Dr. Strange and Baron Mordo and Dormammu start hurling spells at each other, by the hoary hosts of Hoggoth...?

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Old 06-24-2012, 09:33 PM   #369
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Default Re: Characters you'd like to see in future Avengers movies?

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So, Doc.....you're going to ragequit Marvel Studios when Dr. Strange comes out, then....?

Because, you know, Dr. Strange is ALL about magic. And no, not some Clarke's Law "magic and science are the same thing" kind of magic. We're talking spellbooks. Enchanted items. Demon familiars. Astral planes. Wards and glyphs and runes. You know, pure World of Warcraft/ Skyrim magic. And guess what? It's going to coexist in the MCU right alongside all the pseudo-science that you think somehow makes the Marvel movies more realistic and less fantastic.

What *will* you do when Dr. Strange and Baron Mordo and Dormammu start hurling spells at each other, by the hoary hosts of Hoggoth...?
If it's done very cleverly and well, then I'll watch it like everyone else, and be surprised to get into a character I wasn't into before, like I was with Thor. If it's not done well, then I will be like everyone else lose interest and write the character off as boring/silly/dumb. I don't know why you would think I would be upset about, just cuz I don't want it done half-butted. In fact, the fact that I think "She's a witch" as exposition is subpar suggests I care about it a great deal.

And then, should the world last, we'll be back on here, and you'll be telling me about how easy it was to make happen, and I'll be telling you how hard it was to make happen. Basically, the same discussions we have now. -shrug-

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Old 06-24-2012, 10:35 PM   #370
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Default Re: Characters you'd like to see in future Avengers movies?

Nobody here, least of all me, suggested they half-ass an introduction of Scarlet Witch as a bona fide spellcaster. Yeah, the introduction of magic would be a big deal, and I'm sure Marvel would cover it properly the same way they have all the other suspension-of-disbelief issues in all their movies.

*If* they choose to go that route with Wanda --- and I hope they do --- then I believe they really have to introduce magic via the Dr. Strange movie first. Once Strange establishes the "rules" of magic in the MCU, then adding Wanda would be a cinch.

....Hell, just brainstorming....they could even replace Clea with Wanda and actually *introduce* SW in the Dr. Strange movie......

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Old 06-25-2012, 01:13 AM   #371
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Default Re: Characters you'd like to see in future Avengers movies?

I would like to see Darcy in future Avengers films lol... She could essentially be the new Coulson!!

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Old 06-25-2012, 01:25 AM   #372
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Default Re: Characters you'd like to see in future Avengers movies?

I'd like to see Dr. Druid, Tigra, Moon Dragon, Black Panther and the Great Lakes Avengers.



And Kang, of course.


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Old 06-25-2012, 02:08 AM   #373
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Great Lakes Avengers.
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Old 06-26-2012, 12:12 AM   #374
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Default Re: Characters you'd like to see in future Avengers movies?

Hahahaha

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Old 06-26-2012, 01:51 AM   #375
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Default Re: Characters you'd like to see in future Avengers movies?

re THE GREAT LAKES AVENGERS: well, not really... but I love those guys in their first two appearances! I'm a fan of reject characters like that, It started with the fabulous Frogman.


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