No Shared Universe for DC Films

[Thundercrack85]

Originally Posted by Bruce_Begins

So what if Superman Returns was not vey successful, so were Ang lee's HULK and then Louis Leterrier's The Incredible Hulk, still we got Hulk in The Avengers.

Similarly, we already have Superman (from SR), Green Lantern, and Batman, they could just add a Black Canary and make a Justice League movie.

I sat forget about Wonder Woman and Flash, they can be in the next sequel to JL after they get individual solo movies.

Make a JUSTICE LEAGUE movie with

Routh / Cavill as Superman.

Ryan Reynolds as Green Lantern.

Some new actor as Batman.

Some actress as Black Canary.

Mission accomplished.

You're missing the point entirely. The Avengers worked because the characters (established in those commercially successful films) transferred from the solo films. Half the Avengers film's success is owed to Iron Man, which made the film possible to begin with, but also popularized the character of Iron Man in a way few people (except those in marketing) seem to appreciate.

For your DC analogy to work, you need to have a major successful franchise which sets up a greater DC universe (so Batman or Superman). And then you still need a Thor and a Captain America. Manageable, but it needs to be done first. And you need to convince Nolan. He has a lot of sway. Wouldn't hurt to make a good Green Lantern movie, but for the sake of expediency, you could just forego that franchise and focus on Flash, Wonder Woman or Aquaman.

[Bruce_Begins]

General Audience wanted some solo movies (like Hulk, Thor, Cap. America) got, to get them to know about the character's origins, get them familiarized with the characters etc.

So, we have already got some DC solo movies about the characters,

Superman has got how many ? Five solo movies since 1978, is that not enough ?

Batman has got about Six solo movie so far, That should be enough ?

Green lantern has got One solo movie and Two animated movies and a animated TV series, that should be enough.

even if Wonder Woman has not got any solo movie so far, she is widely recognized, due to Lynda Carter's TV series and One WW animated movie and as she is a regular in many JL shows, she is more recognized than Black Widow.

So making a Justice League movie should be no problem at all. No need to follow Marvel's Avengers model.

[Thundercrack85]

Again, it was Iron Man (the 2008 film), and more specifically Robert Downey Jr's performance as Tony Stark that made the character and franchise as popular as they are today. Half of the Avengers film's appeal came from the same actors (who had popularized the characters in the solo films) returning for the Avengers movie. They built up to Avengers, and it paid off.

That's what you're not getting, or if you are, not appreciating. Simply making a movie with characters people have heard of is not the same thing.

Also, you need to make sure that those characters can work in modern live action films before you invest a quarter of a billion dollars into a film. Recognition only gets you so much as Green Lantern proved. You need to deliver.

[Bruce_Begins]

Getting actors that are Loved by general audience as Robert Downey.Jr as Iron man, Chris Evans as Captain America, Chris Hemsworth as Thor is not an easy task, I would say that Marvel got extremely lucky here, cause Routh was not as accepted as Superman and Ryan Reynolds was not as accepted as Green Lantern and there is no guarantee that the new actor replacing Christian Bale will be a popular Batman.

Instead of waiting for all these solo movies to become successful one day (and the actors portraying them to be as successful), which no Studio can guarantee, Justice League movie will never get made.

That is why WB needs to throw away Marvel approach, it will never work for them.

[Thundercrack85]

Originally Posted by Bruce_Begins

Getting actors that are Loved by general audience as Robert Downey.Jr as Iron man, Chris Evans as Captain America, Chris Hemsworth as Thor is not an easy task, i would say that Marvel got extremely luck here, cause Routh was not as accepted as Superman not Ryan Reynolds as Green lantern and there is no guarantee that the new actor replacing Christian bale will be as popular as Batman.

I we keep on waiting for all these solo movies to become successful one day (and the actors portraying them to be as successful.), which no Studio can guarantee, Justice League movie will never get made.

Well it won't be easy. But an easy Justice League movie would be so bad, quite frankly, I'd rather not see it made. They need to do it right, or not do it at all. The actors don't need to be super popular per se. But the solo films do need to be commercially successful at least.

Fairly simple really. Wait a few years, make a good one or two Superman films (start from the very beginning). Then a Superman Batman crossover. Then build on that. In the interim make a good Flash or Wonder Woman film. By which point Green Lantern will have been forgotten.

Though we'll have to see how the new Superman film plays out.

[Bruce_Begins]

By the time the new Batman reboot comes out we would have had as many as seven Batman movies (the most so far, for any Superhero property.) many people would feel burnt out by them, I fear that rebooted Batman movie will not be as successful.

Making a Superman Batman movie will be looked upon as money grab opportunistic move by WB.

Things are not looking good.

[spider-neil]

Originally Posted by Bruce_Begins

By the time the new Batman reboot comes out we would have had as many as seven Batman movies (the most so far, for any Superhero property.) many people would feel burnt out by them, I fear that rebooted Batman movie will not be as successful.

Making a Superman Batman movie will be looked upon as money grab opportunistic move by WB.

Things are not looking good.

EIGHT batman movies.
60's - batman
80's/90's -batman/BR/BR/B&R
nolan - BB/TDK/TDKR

if WB don't want to do justice league then they can start with world's finest (batman/superman) or trinity (batman/superman/wonder woman)
both movies could be made with out build up movies (superman has a movie coming out anyway).

seriously how utterly AWESOME would it be if at the end of MOS the after credit scene was batman in the shadows saying 'clark, I need your help'

[Bruce Malone]

A justice league film is not possible without the audience having a connection to other characters aside from batman and maybe superman. As stated by bruce and myself and others, marvel has done an exceptional job of introducing their lesser know characters to the public.

You have kids dressing up as iron man and cap and thor at the avengers premier. DC had their shot with GL unfortunately that failed and i don't see them introducing any other dc characters in solo movies any time soon.

[spider-neil]

Originally Posted by Bruce Malone

A justice league film is not possible without the audience having a connection to other characters aside from batman and maybe superman. As stated by bruce and myself and others, marvel has done an exceptional job of introducing their lesser know characters to the public.

You have kids dressing up as iron man and cap and thor at the avengers premier. DC had their shot with GL unfortunately that failed and i don't see them introducing any other dc characters in solo movies any time soon.

fantastic four - team movie, no set up.
x-men - team movie, no set up.

what marvel did with the avengers was amazing but WB/DC don't have to go down that road.

wolverine is now one of hollywood's most recognisable heroes and he was introduced in a team movie and LATER got a spin off.

[jmc]

Originally Posted by Thundercrack85

If it was that simple, they would do it.

I really meant that from the perspective of not caring. They are going to do one anyway, they may as well just get it over and done with.

[TheComicbookKid]

The "Costanza Principle" - If every instinct you have is wrong, the opposite would have to be right.

I still think they need a third party solo before attempting a JL film. Especially now that they will have to find a new Bats and assuming Superman is successful. Superman will have to anchor the JL movie in terms of visibility.


You know Cavill is going to get hammered with JL contract possiblity questions. lol

[CConn]

There's a definite difference between The Avengers and the Justice League.

Iron Man, Cap, Thor, etc. haven't nearly had as much exposure in the mass media as Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman have had, so they needed solo films first to legitimize their role and worth among the general audience. They needed that pull to be guaranteed financial success.

The general audience already knows the Justicd League through the numerous live action and animated shows they've starred in over the past 40 years, they don't need any more exposure to be a draw for the general audience. If a JL movie is good - like Avengers-level good - it could easily make as much, if not more than The Avengers even without solo Wonder Woman or Flash films. God knows there wasn't any Haweye or Black Widow movies and they still were two perfectly well down and viable characters in Avengers.

[TheComicbookKid]

Originally Posted by CConn

There's a definite difference between The Avengers and the Justice League.

Iron Man, Cap, Thor, etc. haven't nearly had as much exposure in the mass media as Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman have had, so they needed solo films first to legitimize their role and worth among the general audience. They needed that pull to be guaranteed financial success.

The general audience already knows the Justicd League through the numerous live action and animated shows they've starred in over the past 40 years, they don't need any more exposure to be a draw for the general audience. If a JL movie is good - like Avengers-level good - it could easily make as much, if not more than The Avengers even without solo Wonder Woman or Flash films. God knows there wasn't any Haweye or Black Widow movies and they still were two perfectly well down and viable characters in Avengers.

You still face the problem of introducing the other 4 members. That's assuming people will just go along with "Oh, there's Wonder Woman."(Her origin isn't well-know, but the character obviously is.) So that leaves the Flash, GL(could pull a Hulk recast here),and whoever the last two are.

The Avengers was all world-building and expansion. Loki wasn't a new villain so you didn't need to spend a great deal of time explaining him. Just showing the dynamic.

None of Nolan's villains are JL worthy and Superman only has Lex and Zod Company. So you will have to introduce the villain as well.

[Tobias]

Originally Posted by TheComicbookKid

The "Costanza Principle" - If every instinct you have is wrong, the opposite would have to be right.

I still think they need a third party solo before attempting a JL film. Especially now that they will have to find a new Bats and assuming Superman is successful. Superman will have to anchor the JL movie in terms of visibility.


You know Cavill is going to get hammered with JL contract possiblity questions. lol

Good luck with that.Cavill has been totally mum on his contract so far.

I read where he is lining up projects for 2013 so it doesn't seem he is expecting to be cast in a JL film.

[Tobias]

Originally Posted by Bruce_Begins

Getting actors that are Loved by general audience as Robert Downey.Jr as Iron man, Chris Evans as Captain America, Chris Hemsworth as Thor is not an easy task, I would say that Marvel got extremely lucky here, cause Routh was not as accepted as Superman and Ryan Reynolds was not as accepted as Green Lantern and there is no guarantee that the new actor replacing Christian Bale will be a popular Batman.

Instead of waiting for all these solo movies to become successful one day (and the actors portraying them to be as successful), which no Studio can guarantee, Justice League movie will never get made.

That is why WB needs to throw away Marvel approach, it will never work for them.

Exactly.

Kids and not so young fans are showing up at TA's showings dresssed as IronMan, Cap, Thor and Hulk. That kind of relatability is crucial to TA's success.

BOM has a good perspective on this. Can I post their comments here with attribution? It's a very insightful article.

[The Sage]

Even though I liked Avengers, I still don't have much interest in a Justice League film. I do prefer each character having their own universe and not being limited by sharing it. If it happens, fine. If it doesn't, I'm fine again. I'd rather a series of character films done justice than a culminating film.

Regarding Superman not being a founding member of the Justice League and not needing to be in the film, Captain America wasn't a founding member of the Avengers as far as I know. Despite that, it would've been odd to do an Avengers movie without him, and it would be weird to do a Justice League movie without Superman. He's synonymous with the league. He's almost the first person the general public thinks of when the group is mentioned. Even if Batman's name is mentioned first, Superman's would be next.

[CConn]

Besides, they've rewritten the comics to include Superman as a founding member.

[Bruce_Begins]

If WB want to make a successful JL movie, the actors they cast as superheroes should establish themselves into that character they are playing.

I mean no one will buy Armie Hammer as Batman all of a sudden or DJ Cotrona as Superman.

[CConn]

Originally Posted by TheComicbookKid

You still face the problem of introducing the other 4 members. That's assuming people will just go along with "Oh, there's Wonder Woman."(Her origin isn't well-know, but the character obviously is.) So that leaves the Flash, GL(could pull a Hulk recast here),and whoever the last two are.

Just handle it in the same way Hawkeye or Keaton's Batman or Singer's X-Men were handled; already established heroes with histories that are eluded to, but not fully fleshed out.

That type of writing right there is a very effective manner of world building.

The Avengers was all world-building and expansion. Loki wasn't a new villain so you didn't need to spend a great deal of time explaining him. Just showing the dynamic.

None of Nolan's villains are JL worthy and Superman only has Lex and Zod Company. So you will have to introduce the villain as well.

Again, not a particularly hard thing to do. You could simply have the villain be a mysterious threat to the League who appears suddenly and whose origins don't need to be fully explained.

For example; introduce the Starro spores as mysterious alien invaders who are taking normal people and turning them villainous (give it an Alien vibe) then have the JLA form as a response to that global threat. Then the end of the film could reveal that the spores are actually just scout troops for a tremendously large galactic army headed up by the humanoid Starro The Conqueror, then have an epic land and space battle which can showcase all of the League's various powers, throw Lex Luthor or maybe Vandal Savage in as a human contact for the invading aliens, and you have a damn good movie (with a post credits Darkseid scene, of course).

That's just an example. I thought that up in two seconds. There's tons of other ways you could create an extremely effective villain.

[Sardaukar]

'The Avengers' Has Record-Setting $200.3 Million in Sales

No JLA movie, huh? Are you sure, WB?

[Tobias]

Originally Posted by Sardaukar

'The Avengers' Has Record-Setting $200.3 Million in Sales

No JLA movie, huh? Are you sure, WB?

Absolutely insane. TA is possibly headed to 1.3 billion WW.

It seems unlikely TDKR is going to come close to TA's numbers.

Past performance is not a guarantee of future results. If anything I suspect TA's juggernaut will scare WB off from doing JL anytime soon.

[ClarkLuther55]

They still need to do solo films for the Justice League members. It's rushing things to just make a JLA film without setting things up first.

People may recognize Superman, Batman, and to a lesser extent, Wonder Woman. The general public basically doesn't care about the Flash or Green Lantern, and GL may even be damaged goods at this point after the Ryan Reynolds movie (which I actually liked, but did not click with audiences). Hell, at this point two of the Trinity may even need to prove themselves again, since Wonder Woman's mainstream fame still rests on te old Lynda Carter series, while Superman still hasn't climbed out of the shadow of he 1978 Christopher Reeve movie. As much as I loved the Justice Legue animated series of the past decade, it was a low-rated cable show that was treated as a red headed stepchild by the Cartoon Network. It doesn't have much mainstream penetration. Neither does Smallville, which was a big fish in the small pond of the CW. Fans shouldn't just assume that these characters are capable of making enough money to justify the cost of a $200+ million dollar blockbuster.

It's not enough for the mainstream audience to have a mental image of these characters. The public needs to care about them and want to see them all on the big screen. The Avengers is huge becaus Iron Man knocked one out of the park, and was surrounded by multiple well-received Marvel films.

Also, it is risky as hell to put all of DC's eggs in one basket, up front. The Marvel formula was not only successful, it was safe. The Avengers wasn't even mentioned except in post-credits scenes that could be easily swept under the rug if the first solo movies didn't make it. The Incredible Hulk had a disappointing box office, and probably damaged the chances at the time for another Hulk movie. Didn't matter. Iron Man, Thor, and Cap would still go on strong, and Hulk could play a supporting role in The Avengers if he even showed up at all. The fact that Hulk was FREAKING AWESOME in The Avengers was icing on the cake, and probably redeemed the character in the eyes of the public.

That's the complete opposite of rushing out a Justice League movie. If that ONE movie fails, you can kiss good-bye to Wonder Woman, Flash, Green Lantern, etc. movies. DC/WB is so cautious that even Green Lantern's failure has aleady discouraged them from making more solo superhero movies.

[Sardaukar]

Perhaps DC will regret shelving that JLA movie from a few years back.

Who knows how that would've turned out.

However, I don't think that JLA needs setup movies like the Avengers did.

Everybody already knows who Batman, Superman, Wonder Woman, Aquaman, The Flash, and (now) Green Lantern are. All they need to do is introduce Martian Manhunter and they're all set.

The lesser characters are fine. I bet nobody cared about Black Widow and Hawkeye, but still liked their characters in the Avengers.

[CConn]

You know what I really believe made the difference with Avengers? It's incredible WOM. Everyone knew it was going to be amazing before they even saw it and that's a VERY important factor in driving people into the theaters.

IMO, the one thing WB legitimately has done a horrible job with is build up good WOM before a film's opening. There weren't any glowly reviews or reception for any of their films before their release. BB, V For Vendetta, Watchmen were all great and well received by critics, but got very little positive WOM before their wide releases.

Except for TDK. And that was in large part due to Ledger's death gaining media recognition for his performance.

If they really want to be successful with their superhero movies, they need to make the world ****ing aware that they've made an incredible film days and weeks before its release.

[ClarkLuther55]

The Avengers was riding on a tidal wave of goodwill. Marvel established a track record of excellence over a period of four years. That's why everyone knew the big team up movie would be great, ahead of time. They had no reason to believe otherwise.

They also have no reason to believe that the WB can make movies of similar quality at this point, outside of Batman.