Atheism: Love it or Leave it? - Part 4

[Lightning Strykez!]

Originally Posted by Hobgoblin

I dont know, LS. I call myself the Harley Quinn of the mods. Vacillating between kooky and deadly. We'll see which side comes through tonight..

You were always the creepy mod--but in lovbable terms. Except with those damn owls.

I, on the other hand...was the uber-liberal one. And deadlier than you.

[Schlosser85]

Originally Posted by Thundercrack85

I'm not calling Christians stupid.

Christians were the ones who discovered evolution.

What I am calling stupid is creationism. Which most Christians now reject.

Unfortunately, the fact that Darwin was himself a Christian is often swept under the rug by other Christians.

[Hobgoblin]

Originally Posted by Lightning Strykez!

You were always the creepy mod--but in lovbable terms. Except with those damn owls.

I, on the other hand...was the uber-liberal one. And deadlier than you.

Ah, the Verminators. I miss them.


I'm not sure how you are deadlier....and I'm ok with that.

[Hit-Girl]

Originally Posted by Lightning Strykez!

None taken. But before taking me to task on the terminologies, you might want to consider the definition of the term "doctrine." Look it up my dear.

Atheism is a set of beliefs held by a specific group. And I'd go so far as to say that it's taken the place in their lives as the ultimate authority on how they govern their lives and their understanding of position in life.

Nope. Wrong. Atheism is simply a non-belief in gods. Not a disbelief. It's a neutral, default stance on the subject. An atheist simply has not been presented with suitable evidence for the existence of a god or gods.

Do you believe in fairies? I'm guessing no, unless you're being smart with me. Does your non-belief affect the way you go about life? Do you base your morals on your non-belief in fairies? IN what ways does the Church of Afairieism teach you how to live life?

Yes, there are irrational atheists. Like people who simply claim not to believe because they hate all religion, etc. Or maybe they hate their parents and their parents were theists, etc etc. I don't agree with irrational atheists. Those people haven't really bother to do any research and are just nonbelievers for emotional reasons. I don't believe in dogmas or absolutes. My beliefs are flexible based on the evidence. If I'm proven wrong, I'll accept that and change my beliefs.

The reason atheism is even an issue is because theists have made it one. If bigfoot believers were trying to pass bigfoot related legislation through the government, then you'd see a big rise in non-bigfoot believers.

Which version of god do you believe in, Lightning? Why do you reject all other versions of god?

[Schlosser85]

Some atheists just go about their lives not believing in a deity or religion because they see no compelling reason to.

Others make it the center of their existence as Lightning says, and IMO it is those atheists who are so dogmatic about their atheism (forgive the slight oxymoron, best word I can think of to describe their attitude) that they inflate it to the level of a church or religion.

[Thundercrack85]

Well just imagine going through life with everyone telling you how great something is, you can't comprehend or believe. And that they will be basing laws on that something. And then saying you will burn in hell for not appreciating it. That can wear on you, and make you just a little cynical.

Just a little.

[Schlosser85]

Oh trust me, I do deal with my share of internal anger at complete random strangers believing I will burn in Hell for being myself, and that my friends who have more class and compassion in one finger than they do in their entire bodies, will burn in Hell, or thinking they have the right to decide if I get married.

So I can understand that anger. Because I feel it a lot myself, albeit not about exactly what you feel it about, although the recipients of our anger include a lot of the same people...

[NateHevens]

I do not think Christians are stupid, Schlosser. I think Creationists, specifically Young-Earth Creationists, are stupid. There's a huge difference.

It is entirely possible for religious people to be not stupid. In fact, since the vast majority of the world are religious, I'd say the vast majority of religious people are not stupid... in fact, I'd say most of them are quite intelligent.

Plenty of scientists believe in a higher power... many are even religious. I don't consider John Polkinghorne and Kenneth Miller stupid... in fact, I find their intelligence awe-inspiring. The fact that they are religious (Polkinghorne is an Anglican Priest, after all) doesn't bother me at all.

Religiosity is not the problem. Christianity is not the problem.

The problem is Creationism. It is not science in any way, shape, or form. Every single day, we get more and more evidence showing the Theory of Evolution to be the best possible explanation we have for the existence of species. Granted, we don't have a theory of Abiogenesis (the study of the origin of life), but that doesn't matter in terms of evolution. We know evolution happens. It's still happening. I simply can't understand how anyone could deny this.

[Schlosser85]

I like your post. Your viewpoint was well-explained, and I agree with you.

[Hit-Girl]

Originally Posted by NateHevens

The problem is Creationism. It is not science in any way, shape, or form. Every single day, we get more and more evidence showing the Theory of Evolution to be the best possible explanation we have for the existence of species. Granted, we don't have a theory of Abiogenesis (the study of the origin of life), but that doesn't matter in terms of evolution. We know evolution happens. It's still happening. I simply can't understand how anyone could deny this.

Didn't the Pope say evolution is A-okay, now? Or did he just mean microevolution? LOL.

[Lightning Strykez!]

Originally Posted by NateHevens

Oh wow.

Lightning Strykez, I really want to take you seriously, but you used three extremely old and answered "arguments" against evolution, one of them an actual fallacy. Now you're posts are dripping with arrogance. Your posts imply that you consider yourself above us, more intelligent, and more elite.

I've already reiterated to Thunder-Crack that my position is just that--mine. My point to all of you is to watch how you speak to those who believe differently because not everyone has always been a "creationist" as you coin the term.

Originally Posted by NateHevens

You claim that you "used to be an atheist", but due do my past experiences with Christians who make that claim (and you read exactly like them), I'm very loathe to believe it.

And yes, I do consider Creationists stupid. If you find that infuriating, maybe you should go back to biology class and learn about... you know... evolution. I have never in my life met a Creationist who actually understood not just evolution, but science in general. They have no clue what a Scientific Theory is, they fail to understand how science works, they've never heard the word "hypothesis", they confuse mathematical principles with scientific principles (math deals in proof, science deals in evidence), they continually repeat old and answered arguments ("There are no transitional fossils!" "I don't see dogs giving birth to cats!" "A watch can't spontaneously make itself!" "If we evolved from apes, how come there are still apes?" "If evolution were true, we should see things like Crocoducks!" "The Banana is great proof of Creation." "If evolution's true, why is it called a theory?")...

So yeah, I think creationists are stupid... willfully stupid, perhaps, since they tend to do their damnedest to avoid any real information about evolution... but stupid nonetheless.

And you used those arguments! The existence of apes does not mean we didn't evolve from apes. We are apes. We are mammals with two arms and two legs, our females give live birth, we have nails instead of claws, we walk upright, we have a tail bone (but no tail), we have generalized teeth (we eat plants and animals), our females suckle our young (hence nipples), we have opposable thumbs... that is what being an ape means. That is what makes us apes.


And I am so sick and tired of anthropocentric Christians claiming atheists are arrogant.

I believe that we are NOT the center of the universe. I believe that we do NOT have a purpose. I believe that when we go extinct, nature will NOT care. I believe that our existence is a blip in the total life of the universe. I do not believe in an invisible sky-daddy that loves us and micro-manages our lives from who we can have sex with to what clothes we wear and what we're allowed to eat.

Again... how in the hell am I arrogant?

I'm also sick and tired of having my views stereotyped into things they simply aren't. I'm not rejecting any gods. I just don't believe theists who claim that gods exist. And yes, there is a difference.

I've been looking for evidence my entire damn life. And yeah, I believed, until I was 21. Then I started questioning if I ever believed, and about half-way through my 21st year of life, I became an atheist. It makes no sense to me. The whole concept is off... completely off.

To be fair, my journey from theism to atheism is long and involves a lot of detail. I plan on blogging about it eventually...

Lightning, I really do want to take you seriously, but so far you've managed to read exactly like every other creationist I've ever come across (with one exception... and not only is she no longer a Creationist, but she came out as an atheist a couple months ago), and that's not doing you any favors.

I'm sorry to come off as rude. I'm really not trying to be. But it's annoying, quite frankly... I could recite posts like yours from memory I've seen them so many times... and worse, I've heard them in real life... I just dealt with someone at FAU three weeks ago who talked almost exactly like you type. It's beyond infuriating... it makes me feel even more justified in being a cynic and misanthrope.

There is a lot of skimming of posts here I see.

1.) I've been careful to insert the word "some" in my estimation of atheists. So if you choose to take offense at being grouped into a negative estimation, that is your choice-I never said ALL atheists are this or that. Both you and Hit-Girl have stated this summation. Please drop that particular gun; I haven't loaded it.

2.) In terms of condescension--I do believe I have an enlightened view of this topic. But I've always been careful to say I still respect yours as a collective even if I do think it's not valid. Again, I'm answering the original poster's topic.

I stated my reasons in a very simplifed way--that I felt life and the universe was too complex to have gotten here by accident or without the design of a Creator. That should have given you Clue #1 as to where I was coming from. And then all hell broke loose from users here ready to fight about it. And then I had to get condescending in an annoying way (as my dear friend Schlosser would put it), but the bottom line is the reaction was antagonized.

[Thundercrack85]

Okay, but for future reference, monkeys aren't going to turn into humans.

[Hit-Girl]

Okay, so we're all against irrational beliefs and bullying. Sweet. Glad we can get along.

[Lightning Strykez!]

Originally Posted by Schlosser85

Others make it the center of their existence as Lightning says, and IMO it is those atheists who are so dogmatic about their atheism (forgive the slight oxymoron, best word I can think of to describe their attitude) that they inflate it to the level of a church or religion.

This.

Exactly. The term doctrine has multiple applications and believe it or not, but atheism and evolution are sets of beliefs. And millions of people subscribe to it. There's nothing shameful or downgrading about that...it's just what it is.

If one doesn't believe in God, they have to believe in something as an explanation of their existence.

[Thundercrack85]

We don't believe. We know.

It's science.

[Schlosser85]

sigh...and we were so close to joining hands and singing kumba ya kumba yay

[Lightning Strykez!]

Originally Posted by Thundercrack85

Okay, but for future reference, monkeys aren't going to turn into humans.

Some of us (used to) believe diffferently. That's the thing about this doctrine--and why it's sooooooooo similar to organized religions. There are many facets of understandings and beliefs even within the category.

And when I read some of these posts I can see that some of us/you are not even on the same page in terms of understandings of atheism and evolution. It's even worse debating with so-called Christians. Some of them believe God is flesh and bone and others think he's Jesus and a spirit.

Oh and Hit-Girl, in answer to your question from a few posts back: I believe God is a singular force. However, I do NOT subscribe to the belief of the trinity OR hellfire. Both are disproved by the Bible itself. Part of the ice thawing for me came from learning the truth about some of the fear tactics used by organized religion. Those are two of them.

[Hit-Girl]

Originally Posted by Lightning Strykez!

This.

Exactly. The term doctrine has multiple applications and believe it or not, but atheism and evolution are sets of beliefs. And millions of people subscribe to it. There's nothing shameful or downgrading about that...it's just what it is.

If one doesn't believe in God, they have to believe in something as an explanation of their existence.

Um... no.

From Meriam-webster:

"a : something that is taught
b : a principle or position or the body of principles in a branch of knowledge or system of belief : dogma
c : a principle of law established through past decisions
d : a statement of fundamental government policy especially in international relations
e : a military principle or set of strategies"

Evolution and atheism are not taught. Evolution is reality. Atheism is non-belief in a certain thing. Religion is taught. A child would not come to believe in any already known gods without being taught about one. That's why you won't see a child suddenly come to a realization about X-tianity in a Muslim dominated culture. It would have to be taught to them by someone else.

Evolution happened before humans came about and will probably happen as long as their is life as we know it.

Science is not a dogma. It is not absolute. It changes based on what we discover about the universe.

Sorry, but atheism doesn't fit any of those definitions.

I looked it up like you said.

[Lightning Strykez!]

Originally Posted by Schlosser85

sigh...and we were so close to joining hands and singing kumba ya kumba yay

The hell we weren't.



Okay, if I decide to share my epiphany about why changed my mind about this subject I will need to insert application of some scriptures from the...>gasp<

Bible.

Now, is that okay with everyone? Is there enough healthy respect for that information resource to be entered into the debate? Because if not, I am not even going to waste my time. And before some of you go rubbing your hands with glee, trust me it's not what you're expecting (sorry Hit-Girl...I don't require websites with Cliff Note links to defend my position).

And it won't even require faith for you to understand it, methinks.

[Hobgoblin]

Originally Posted by Thundercrack85

We don't believe. We know.

It's science.

Its never that simple. I went to the zoo with a biologist friend of mine a few weeks ago and I mentioned that the chicken was the closest living relative to the tyrannosaurus. She said that was true from the ornithologists POV but a herpetologist would say that a reptile is the T-rex's closest descendant.

There are always points of contention, even in science.

[Thundercrack85]

Originally Posted by Lightning Strykez!

Some of us (used to) believe diffferently. That's the thing about this doctrine--and why it's sooooooooo similar to organized religions. There are many facets of understandings and beliefs even within the category.

And when I read some of these posts I can see that some of us/you are not even on the same page in terms of understandings of atheism and evolution. It's even worse debating with so-called Christians. Some of them believe God is flesh and bone and others think he's Jesus and a spirit.

Oh and Hit-Girl, in answer to your question from a few posts back: I believe God is a singular force. However, I do NOT subscribe to the belief of the trinity OR hellfire. Both are disproved by the Bible itself. Part of the ice thawing for me came from learning the truth about some of the fear tactics used by organized religion. Those are two of them.

No... that's basic biology. By that logic every zoologist is a religious fanatic.

[Hit-Girl]

Originally Posted by Hobgoblin

Its never that simple. I went to the zoo with a biologist friend of mine a few weeks ago and I mentioned that the chicken was the closest living relative to the tyrannosaurus. She said that was true from the ornithologists POV but a herpetologist would say that a reptile is the T-rex's closest descendant.

There are always points of contention, even in science.

And that's okay to me as long as none of those scientists are claiming that their POV is going to send me to Hell unless I convert.

[Hobgoblin]

Originally Posted by Hit-Girl

And that's okay to me as long as none of those scientists are claiming that their POV is going to send me to Hell unless I convert.

Agreed, but the problem is education. Which POV will make it into the text books? I guess having a theory left out of school rooms is the biologists "hell."

[Lightning Strykez!]

Originally Posted by Hit-Girl

Evolution and atheism are not taught. Evolution is reality.

WHAT?!!?!?!?



Oh s****....seriously? Evolution is a staple in university--hell, even high school--curriculums. And don't get me started on the themes in course-work for degrees necessary for the biological fields of science. And for many, it's actually self-taught. My father taught me to reject God just like some kids are raised to believe in God. So no...let's not delve there.

I'll grant you that religion is taught...in churches. But to say that evolution and atheism aren't taught in a systematic and educational model today is incredible.

I think you just hate the idea of the word "doctrine" being applied to atheism because it has organized religion cooties all over it.

[Hit-Girl]

Originally Posted by Lightning Strykez!

Some of us (used to) believe diffferently. That's the thing about this doctrine--and why it's sooooooooo similar to organized religions. There are many facets of understandings and beliefs even within the category.

And when I read some of these posts I can see that some of us/you are not even on the same page in terms of understandings of atheism and evolution. It's even worse debating with so-called Christians. Some of them believe God is flesh and bone and others think he's Jesus and a spirit.

Oh and Hit-Girl, in answer to your question from a few posts back: I believe God is a singular force. However, I do NOT subscribe to the belief of the trinity OR hellfire. Both are disproved by the Bible itself. Part of the ice thawing for me came from learning the truth about some of the fear tactics used by organized religion. Those are two of them.

I already described the difference between science and doctrine. Science is reality. Whatever is discovered by science exists even if we do not. Doctrine is something we teach to ourselves and others based on our beliefs (rational or irrational).

So, you consider yourself a X-tian? You subscribe to the Bible? What makes you think the Bible is the word of God, or divinely inspired and other holy scriptures from other religions are not?