The "Hoodie" Incident: Controversial? Racist? - Part 2

[VictorCreed]

Originally Posted by Scrandy Randy

No it doesn't. Whoever started the physical altercation is the instigator.

There would not have been any physical altercation if he hadn't gotten out of his car and stalked Martin against the advice of the 911 operator. This Zimmerman has a history of making really bad decisions.

And the physical altercation itself is really sketchy as it is.

[KalMart]

Originally Posted by VictorCreed

There would not have been any physical altercation if he hadn't gotten out of his car and stalked Martin against the advice of the 911 operator. This Zimmerman has a history of making really bad decisions.

And the physical altercation itself is really sketchy as it is.

They also could have avoided an altercation is Martin had only said "I'm not doing anything, just going home" instead of attacking Zimmerman out of anger. This Martin had a history of bad decisions too, if we're going to go down that path. And Zimmerman wasn't stalking Martin. He was following, as his legal right was to, not actually stalking as is legally defined.

But ultimately, it's looking more like a wrongful death issue via bad judgement etc. than an actual murder or hate crime. We can't just elevate the drama if it's not as juicy as that. As much as we should respect the tragedy of the loss, we also need to respect accuracy and due legal process.

[Nell2ThaIzzay]

Originally Posted by KalMart

Again, if you use it in self-defense, it's also with intent, but justified. It's being called a possible 2nd degree because a gun was used and Florida is looking to deter gun crime by stiffening it across the board. The negligence was in Zimmerman's choice to follow. Even thought it wasn't illegal...it ultimately might not have been the wisest thing to do.

And I doubt anyone has suggested that he shot simply to 'scare'. He shot in order to defend himself and fully knew that the shot could end up killing him. The question is whether he was fully legally justified to do so, or was he mistaken in thinking that he was because he failed to take measures within his control to avoid a recognizable possibility of death.

Kal, I think you're confused as to what manslaughter is. Manslaughter ultimately is an unintentional death, or a death that happened accidentally through negligent actions. If Zimmerman was shooting his gun off from his front porch, and a passing by Martin was struck and killed, that is manslaughter.

There was intention in Zimmerman's shot towards Martin. It was intentional use of a deadly weapon. For everyone looking for the proof of a "depraved mind" - if the shot was not in self defense, that is the proof. Zimmerman intended to kill when he fired the shot.

2nd degree murder does not require pre-meditation. That applies to 1st degree murder, which this is not. Unless some crazy proof comes out that Zimmerman had spent his days leading up to the shooting plotting on how to take out that darkie that keeps walking through the neighborhood.

2nd degree is intentional killing without pre-meditation. This was either 2nd degree murder, or it was self defense.

IF Martin truly did attack and bash Zimmerman's head into the concrete (which I don't believe happened, but right now, that's neither here nor there), then Zimmerman would be justified in using his weapon in self defense, thus he should be found not-guilty of 2nd degree murder charges. Whatever else he could be found guilty of for pursuing Martin is a different matter.

However, if Zimmerman's story of self defense is found to be false, then it would be 2nd degree murder because Zimmerman would have intentionally used a deadly weapon on his victim with no justifiable cause. This is what I believe to have happened, but the courts and jury will decide if this is what actually happened or not.

But this is not a case of manslaughter. It is a case of 2nd degree murder, or self defense. I have spoken at length about this with my friend who is an attorney, and works for the DA in Georgia. My friend is a huge conservative who wants to do everything he can to convince the world that Zimmerman is not a racist, not a murderer, and it is actually the society of the United States that is now racist against white people and it is we who are victimized (I.E.: a Fox News fan), and even he, again an attorney who works for the DA in Georgia, acknowledges that manslaughter does not apply to this case. 2nd degree, or self defense, are the 2 options given what we know.

[bullets]

Originally Posted by KalMart

He wasn't being stalked....but the 17-yr-old kid could still have felt that or reacted that way.

Exactly. if I was in Martin's shoes I would view it as being stalked. I'm not saying Martin made the right choice to allegedly attack Zimmerman but I could where he was coming from.

[Nell2ThaIzzay]

Originally Posted by KalMart

They also could have avoided an altercation is Martin had only said "I'm not doing anything, just going home" instead of attacking Zimmerman out of anger. This Martin had a history of bad decisions too, if we're going to go down that path. And Zimmerman wasn't stalking Martin. He was following, as his legal right was to, not actually stalking as is legally defined.

But ultimately, it's looking more like a wrongful death issue via bad judgement etc. than an actual murder or hate crime. We can't just elevate the drama if it's not as juicy as that. As much as we should respect the tragedy of the loss, we also need to respect accuracy and due legal process.

Either way you look at it, it was Zimmerman who initiated everything by following in the first place. Martin is under no obligation to Zimmerman to address him or acknowledge him. If Martin was the instigator (which is not proven that he was), then obviously Zimmerman was doing enough to warrant Martin being threatened, thus felt he had to fight.

Anything that Martin did was in response to Zimmerman's actions.

[KalMart]

Originally Posted by bullets

Exactly. if I was in Martin's shoes I would view it as being stalked.

As I mentioned before...it was really the wrong two people in the wrong situation at the wrong time. Anything that could have possible been combustible caught fire right away. Neither of these guys were likely to laugh off a mistaken identity, shake, and apologize.

[KalMart]

Originally Posted by Nell2ThaIzzay

Kal, I think you're confused as to what manslaughter is. Manslaughter ultimately is an unintentional death, or a death that happened accidentally through negligent actions. If Zimmerman was shooting his gun off from his front porch, and a passing by Martin was struck and killed, that is manslaughter.

There was intention in Zimmerman's shot towards Martin. It was intentional use of a deadly weapon. For everyone looking for the proof of a "depraved mind" - if the shot was not in self defense, that is the proof. Zimmerman intended to kill when he fired the shot.

2nd degree murder does not require pre-meditation. That applies to 1st degree murder, which this is not. Unless some crazy proof comes out that Zimmerman had spent his days leading up to the shooting plotting on how to take out that darkie that keeps walking through the neighborhood.

2nd degree is intentional killing without pre-meditation. This was either 2nd degree murder, or it was self defense.

IF Martin truly did attack and bash Zimmerman's head into the concrete (which I don't believe happened, but right now, that's neither here nor there), then Zimmerman would be justified in using his weapon in self defense, thus he should be found not-guilty of 2nd degree murder charges. Whatever else he could be found guilty of for pursuing Martin is a different matter.

However, if Zimmerman's story of self defense is found to be false, then it would be 2nd degree murder because Zimmerman would have intentionally used a deadly weapon on his victim with no justifiable cause. This is what I believe to have happened, but the courts and jury will decide if this is what actually happened or not.

But this is not a case of manslaughter. It is a case of 2nd degree murder, or self defense. I have spoken at length about this with my friend who is an attorney, and works for the DA in Georgia. My friend is a huge conservative who wants to do everything he can to convince the world that Zimmerman is not a racist, not a murderer, and it is actually the society of the United States that is now racist against white people and it is we who are victimized (I.E.: a Fox News fan), and even he, again an attorney who works for the DA in Georgia, acknowledges that manslaughter does not apply to this case. 2nd degree, or self defense, are the 2 options given what we know.

Manslaughter doesn't only have to be unintentional...don't know if you caught that way back when. That hasn't changed. Go ahead and look up actual Florida state law and definitions of manslaughter and murder.

Here...I'll give you a head start......

Manslaughter is voluntary, when it happens upon a sudden heat; or involuntary, when it takes place in the commission of some unlawful act.

http://www.lectlaw.com/def2/m013.htm

Cheers.

[KalMart]

Originally Posted by Nell2ThaIzzay

Either way you look at it, it was Zimmerman who initiated everything by following in the first place. Martin is under no obligation to Zimmerman to address him or acknowledge him. If Martin was the instigator (which is not proven that he was), then obviously Zimmerman was doing enough to warrant Martin being threatened, thus felt he had to fight.

Anything that Martin did was in response to Zimmerman's actions.

Without a doubt, Zimmerman could have avoided the chances of an altercation better if he had chosen not to pursue or put his person in a position to meet with Martin. And no, unless Zimmerman actually said 'tell me who.what you are or I'll hurt you', it's not enough reason in and of itself to react violently/defensively. It likely requires a chip on Martin's shoulder as well.

But as we discussed, it's doubtful that either of these guys were the 'let's talk this through' type.


And as was also mentioned earlier...a 2nd degree murder charge could actually end up helping Zimmerman go free since they'd have to prove beyond reasonable doubt that it was 2nd degree murder with evil intent and so on....if they can't ,then he can't be booked for 2nd degree murder (don't know, again, if they can 'bargain down' to manslaughter or the like).

[Nell2ThaIzzay]

"Sudden heat" isn't enough for manslaughter.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/0..._n_830678.html

^ That killing was done in a "sudden heat" - yet the suspect was convicted earlier this week of 2nd degree murder.

[Scrandy Randy]

Originally Posted by KalMart

And as was also mentioned earlier...a 2nd degree murder charge could actually end up helping Zimmerman go free since they'd have to prove beyond reasonable doubt that it was 2nd degree murder with evil intent and so on....if they can't ,then he can't be booked for 2nd degree murder (don't know, again, if they can 'bargain down' to manslaughter or the like).

I'm pretty sure they can because it was speculated by lots of law experts from various news outlets that Corey might have purposely overcharged to get Zimmerman to agree to a plea deal. Shes done it before I believe.

[roach]

http://news.yahoo.com/abc-news-exclu...opstories.html

more news

[KalMart]

Originally Posted by Nell2ThaIzzay

"Sudden heat" isn't enough for manslaughter.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/0..._n_830678.html

^ That killing was done in a "sudden heat" - yet the suspect was convicted earlier this week of 2nd degree murder.

a) different state

b) different set of circumstances and drugs are believed to be involved

c) nice try, though.

[KalMart]

Originally Posted by Scrandy Randy

I'm pretty sure they can because it was speculated by lots of law experts from various news outlets that Corey might have purposely overcharged to get Zimmerman to agree to a plea deal. Shes done it before I believe.

Any unpaid parking tickets?

But then....if murder is looking more and more unlikely during the trial, why would Zimmerman agree to another charge when it looks like he could simply walk after the failing to prove him as a murderer? I could certainly see a murder charge being a scare tactic of sorts, but if he's confident that it won't stick, might as well see it through and not give them a backup chance.

[Darthphere]

Originally Posted by roach

http://news.yahoo.com/abc-news-exclu...opstories.html

more news

We need more of this, cold hard facts. Though on one hand it reveals he had 2 one inch and quarter inch lacerations on the back of his head. I've never had my bashed on pavement before but that seems quite minor. On the other, it seemed he may have had a concussion though he refused medical treatment. I still think he instigated this whole mess and should have to own up to that at some point but he will probably get off on the major charge.

[KalMart]

Originally Posted by Darthphere

We need more of this, cold hard facts. Though on one hand it reveals he had 2 one inch and quarter inch lacerations on the back of his head. I've never had my bashed on pavement before but that seems quite minor. On the other, it seemed he may have had a concussion though he refused medical treatment. I still think he instigated this whole mess and should have to own up to that at some point but he will probably get off on the major charge.

I very much doubt that while you're having your head bashed against pavement, you can tell how deep or long the actual lacerations are, or judge how non-fatally it's progressing. Unless the basher actually tells you he's specifically not going to let it kill you, and you have the means to believe him amongst the strikes, then you have every reason to believe that your life is in danger.

I agree that he should not have pursued at all unless he actually saw/believed that someone was going to be hurt by the person.

[Darthphere]

Originally Posted by KalMart

I very much doubt that while you're having your head bashed against pavement, you can tell how deep or long the actual lacerations are, or judge how non-fatally it's progressing. Unless the basher actually tells you he's specifically not going to let it kill you, and you have the means to believe him amongst the strikes, then you have every reason to believe that your life is in danger.

I agree that he should not have pursued at all unless he actually saw/believed that someone was going to be hurt by the person.

Well my point is, I don't believe his head was bashed into the pavement. A couple of one inch lacerations seems like something you get when you fall on your ass in a tussle and hit your head on the ground. Not from someone bashing your head repeatedly into the ground.

[KalMart]

Originally Posted by Darthphere

Well my point is, I don't believe his head was bashed into the pavement. A couple of one inch lacerations seems like something you get when you fall on your ass in a tussle and hit your head on the ground. Not from someone bashing your head repeatedly into the ground.

People have hit their head only once very hard on gym floors without leaving a cut of any kind...yet it's still very dangerous. Football and hockey players suffer very serious concussions even though their heads are protected by helmets. The cuts don't have to be gaping to gauge the level of danger presented by it. One's head...especially the back....making contact with any hard surface is a serious thing, even without gushing wounds. Everything points to this not being made up by Zimmerman.

[Darthphere]

Originally Posted by KalMart

People have hit their head only once very hard on gym floors without leaving a cut of any kind...yet it's still very dangerous. Football and hockey players suffer very serious concussions even though their heads are protected by helmets. The cuts don't have to be gaping to gauge the level of danger presented by it. One's head...especially the back....making contact with any hard surface is a serious thing, even without gushing wounds. Everything points to this not being made up by Zimmerman.

Maybe, but it seems embellished to me. I'm not denying there was a fight or anything of the like. All signs point to Zimmerman seemingly getting his ass kicked (black eyes, broken nose etc.) but the one specific thing bothers me. It's just the way I am.

[KalMart]

Originally Posted by Darthphere

Maybe, but it seems embellished to me. I'm not denying there was a fight or anything of the like. All signs point to Zimmerman seemingly getting his ass kicked (black eyes, broken nose etc.) but the one specific thing bothers me. It's just the way I am.

I think that if you tried an experiment with someone repeatedly hitting your head on the pavement just hard enough before actually leaving a cut, you probably wouldn't feel safe or comfortable. It wouldn't be a simple tap...you'd feel the hell out of it. Now imagine that even harder...enough to actually leave a cut. Also, even if he was getting his ass kicked, if the person is not stopping after clearly beating him, and continues to...say...hit his heads on the pavement while on top of him....it's not just a lost scuffle anymore. It might not sound as exciting as a movie, but in a real-life confrontation like that it doesn't take much to present a legitimate danger....and if Martin was able to land such decided blows he could have easily fled instead of going the extra distance to bash Zimmerman's head.

The thing is that even if the cuts were deeper, some would point out that his brains weren't hanging out of the wounds, and so on. The fact is that his injuries match what he has claimed, as do some witness testimonies, apparently. Medical reports on both show that Zimmerman was much more on the receiving end of a physical confrontation prior to the shot being fired. So trying to create more loopholes within that is pretty futile. Some are still looking for something...anything...to portray as the actions of a cold-blooded killer and not self-defense. Better to look in areas that actually don't support his claims based on recognizable fact, and concentrate on the bad judgement and negligence of continuing to follow. Problem is...the more you do that the more it's made out to be negligent manslaughter, or ultimately legal self-defense...and not the juicy murder sentence that people are seeking out of outrage towards other racism in the world in general.

[Darthphere]

Originally Posted by KalMart

I think that if you tried an experiment with someone repeatedly hitting your head on the pavement just hard enough before actually leaving a cut, you probably wouldn't feel safe or comfortable. It wouldn't be a simple tap...you'd feel the hell out of it. Now imagine that even harder...enough to actually leave a cut. Also, even if he was getting his ass kicked, if the person is not stopping after clearly beating him, and continues to...say...hit his heads on the pavement while on top of him....it's not just a lost scuffle anymore. It might not sound as exciting as a movie, but in a real-life confrontation like that it doesn't take much to present a legitimate danger like that.

Granted, now that I think of it more his head could've been hitting the ground from being punched.

[roach]

Originally Posted by Darthphere

Well my point is, I don't believe his head was bashed into the pavement. A couple of one inch lacerations seems like something you get when you fall on your ass in a tussle and hit your head on the ground. Not from someone bashing your head repeatedly into the ground.

when I was a little boy I went down a icy hill standing up. When I got to the bottom my feet slipped from under me and i slammed the back of my head against the concrete. When I got up I discovered I lost peripheral vision. I could only see what I was looking at. As the day went on my vision grew smaller and smaller until I went blind. I was taken to the hospital and had a catscan performed...a few hours later my sight returned but I was kept in the hospital for observation in case I had a concussion...people who go to sleep with concussions don't tend to wake up.

the back of the head is one of the worst places to get hit

[KalMart]

Originally Posted by Darthphere

Granted, now that I think of it more his head could've been hitting the ground from being punched.

Or it could have been bashed like he said it was. Not that any blows to the head while straddled on the pavement are the safe, comfortable kind.

Again...give it a try and see how safe you feel.

[Darthphere]

That's the thing though, I've split my head open before when I was a kid. Slipped on some oil in the driveway. Needed stitches and everything. That's why I have to wonder how someone just gets a one inch laceration is someone was straddling you bashing your head on the pavement. I don't buy that part of the story for that very reason. Again, he seemed to get his ass kicked but at the end of the day, people tend to exaggerate what happens in a fight.

[KalMart]

Originally Posted by Darthphere

That's the thing though, I've split my head open before when I was a kid. Slipped on some oil in the driveway. Needed stitches and everything. That's why I have to wonder how someone just gets a one inch laceration is someone was straddling you bashing your head on the pavement. I don't buy that part of the story for that very reason. Again, he seemed to get his ass kicked but at the end of the day, people tend to exaggerate what happens in a fight.

People also tend to downplay things nonsensibly when trying to fit a different fantasy into it. It's like if it went so far as being a cracked skull, you'd be wondering why he wasn't beheaded, etc. C'mon, now.

Again, sure, he may have gotten his ass kicked...but if it was that one-sided, Martin could have continued to flee once he incapacitated him. But what it shows is that he kept going at it. That's when it becomes an assault in any situation. Zimmerman didn't pull his gun and shoot a fleeing Martin after martin put him down and tried to escape. He shot a Martin who was on top of him and would not stop after already landing blows. Be it bashing, punching, back-slapping or what have you. The medial reports and powder burns show that. So we'll put it this way again.....Zimmerman's claim of being straddled, hit, and having his head bashed is supported, despite it not being as fantastic as some may need it to be. End of issue in that area....you need to look elsewhere to find a pitfall in the whole story...this part actually does add up.

[Darthphere]

Just because you say so right? What I get from the medical report is, he got his ass kicked by some kid and he had to shoot him to get him off him after initiating a pointless and what ended up being a deadly struggle. IMO, which is what it's always been a one inch laceration is in no way indicative of someone getting their bashed on a hard surface. I speak from personal experience on this.