The "Hoodie" Incident: Controversial? Racist? - Part 2

[Scar Predator]

Originally Posted by Scrandy Randy

http://www.wftv.com/news/news/local/...uries-h/nN6gs/

"Autopsy results show Trayvon Martin had injuries to his knuckles."

Things just keep getting better for Zimmerman.

How so? We already knew he and Martin fought.

And the so-called injuries of black eyes and broken nose that Zimmerman's family doc says he had the next day? If I were the prosecution, I'd question those. He certainly didn't have them when he was taken into custody, and yet they appeared the next day? I call shenanigans.

Also, I'm very curious as to why Zimmerman had a 'script for Adderall. That's an amphetamine often used to treat ADHD, paranoia, depression etc. I've questioned his mental health since I his questionable comments on the 911 call.

[Scrandy Randy]

Originally Posted by Scar Predator

How so? We already knew he and Martin fought.

It says the only injuries on Martin were his knuckles and the gun shot wound. That means he was the instigator and Zimmerman never hurt him physically seeing as Zimmerman had no offensive wounds.

Originally Posted by Scar Predator

And the so-called injuries of black eyes and broken nose that Zimmerman's family doc says he had the next day? If I were the prosecution, I'd question those. He certainly didn't have them when he was taken into custody, and yet they appeared the next day? I call shenanigans.

The lacerations were clear in the picture right after the incident and on the police station video when the officer looks right at them, his nose does look inflamed(you wouldn't even be able to come to a clear conclusion without close up photos anyway), and bruising doesn't show up instantaneously.

[Scar Predator]

Originally Posted by Scrandy Randy

It says the only injuries on Martin were his knuckles and the gun shot wound. That means he was the instigator and Zimmerman never hurt him physically seeing as Zimmerman had no offensive wounds.


The lacerations were clear in the picture right after the incident and on the police station video when the officer looks right at them, his nose does look inflamed(you wouldn't even be able to come to a clear conclusion without close up photos anyway), and bruising doesn't show up instantaneously.

Martin might have begun punching Zimmerman when he saw the gun, or he could have been flailing and hit the ground or something nearby. The wounds to the knuckles only prove what we knew already: there was an altercation.

And I've had enough facial bruising to know that in the cases of severe trauma, discoloration and swelling can show up in the first hour. The fact that Zimmerman refused on-scene care, but then decided to get it later is very fishy.

[VictorCreed]

Originally Posted by Scrandy Randy

It says the only injuries on Martin were his knuckles and the gun shot wound. That means he was the instigator and Zimmerman never hurt him physically seeing as Zimmerman had no offensive wounds.

I'd say a gunshot wound is a pretty serious offensive wound.

[roach]

Originally Posted by VictorCreed

I'd say a gunshot wound is a pretty serious offensive wound.

a gunshot wound is not a offensive wound...an offensive wound is a wound you receive cause by being offensive....bruised knuckles is an offensive wound...your knuckles are bruised because you have hit things...

[Nell2ThaIzzay]

The only injuries to Martin being his knuckles does not prove that he instigated the fight.

If my theory is correct (emphasis on "if", because it is just a theory, I was not there, I don't have all of the evidence, this is only the conclusion that I have personally come to based on the evidence I have seen), then I believe that Zimmerman followed and pursued Martin, evidenced by the "what are you following me for?" that is documented for Martin to have said, Zimmerman, not wanting this "******* to get away" (an intent I believe was made clear during his 911 call) tried to detain Martin, Martin fought back against Zimmerman who would have been the aggressor in this case, and when Zimmerman had determined that he had lost this fight that he had started and was getting his ass kicked, decided to kill Martin.

There is a perfectly valid reasoning for Martin's and Zimmerman's wounds, while Zimmerman is still the aggressor. Of course, this is all speculation on my part, and could very well be inaccurate to what really happened. That is up to the court system and the jury to determine.

[Scrandy Randy]

Originally Posted by Scar Predator

And I've had enough facial bruising to know that in the cases of severe trauma, discoloration and swelling can show up in the first hour. The fact that Zimmerman refused on-scene care, but then decided to get it later is very fishy.

You're not qualified in any way to say what would and wouldn't happen in regards to injuries, bruising, etc. It's not fishy at all, if I didn't need immediate medical attention I would also personally decline it. It's a hassle im sure many people wouldn't want to deal with if it wasn't necessary.

[VictorCreed]

Originally Posted by roach

a gunshot wound is not a offensive wound...an offensive wound is a wound you receive cause by being offensive....bruised knuckles is an offensive wound...your knuckles are bruised because you have hit things...

Well yeah, but guns don't get offensive wounds, it's "wounds" are basically forensic evidence. They can deliver offensive damage was what I was trying to say(much more than bruised knuckles cause).

[roach]

Originally Posted by VictorCreed

Well yeah, but guns don't get offensive wounds, it's "wounds" are basically forensic evidence. They can deliver offensive damage was what I was trying to say(much more than bruised knuckles cause).

obviously you are missing the point of 'offensive wounds'.

[Scrandy Randy]

I've personally broken my nose before playing basketball and never thought much of it let alone thinking it was broken. Went to the doctor a couple days later after my nose stayed crooked and found out it was broken.

[Scar Predator]

Originally Posted by Scrandy Randy

You're not qualified in any way to say what would and wouldn't happen in regards to injuries, bruising, etc. It's not fishy at all, if I didn't need immediate medical attention I would also personally decline it. It's a hassle im sure many people wouldn't want to deal with if it wasn't necessary.

Actually, I am. That's also why I'm not shocked at all to learn that Zimmerman was taking psychoactive medication. One listen to the 911 call and I knew he was someone with perceptual abnormalities and possibly a personality disorder.

[roach]

Originally Posted by Scar Predator

Actually, I am. That's also why I'm not shocked at all to learn that Zimmerman was taking psychoactive medication. One listen to the 911 call and I knew he was someone with perceptual abnormalities and possibly a personality disorder.

and your qualifications are...

[Scar Predator]

Originally Posted by roach

and your qualifications are...

Mental Health Professional, part of which involves some basic medical training.

I've also been punched in the face about 1,000 times.

[KalMart]

Originally Posted by Scar Predator

Martin might have begun punching Zimmerman when he saw the gun, or he could have been flailing and hit the ground or something nearby. The wounds to the knuckles only prove what we knew already: there was an altercation.

And I've had enough facial bruising to know that in the cases of severe trauma, discoloration and swelling can show up in the first hour. The fact that Zimmerman refused on-scene care, but then decided to get it later is very fishy.

Yes, he must have gotten someone to give him those injuries after the fact to cover up for it....that's not fishy at all.

[KalMart]

Originally Posted by Nell2ThaIzzay

The only injuries to Martin being his knuckles does not prove that he instigated the fight.

If my theory is correct (emphasis on "if", because it is just a theory, I was not there, I don't have all of the evidence, this is only the conclusion that I have personally come to based on the evidence I have seen), then I believe that Zimmerman followed and pursued Martin, evidenced by the "what are you following me for?" that is documented for Martin to have said, Zimmerman, not wanting this "******* to get away" (an intent I believe was made clear during his 911 call) tried to detain Martin, Martin fought back against Zimmerman who would have been the aggressor in this case, and when Zimmerman had determined that he had lost this fight that he had started and was getting his ass kicked, decided to kill Martin.

I don't think Zimmerman tried to specifically detain Martin, but it's likely that tempers flared on both sides and it quickly became a fight. Whether or not Zimmerman was decidedly losing or winning it at any point, Martin proceeded to bash his head against the pavement, and then it wasn't just a fight any more, it's a life-threatening assault and Zimmerman defended against it with his firearm.

Basically, Zimmerman may have reacted to the actual threat lawfully and rationally...but his lack of better judgment in following in the first place ultimately put them both in that situation. He probably didn't have to try and detain Martin to set him off in anger.

[Nell2ThaIzzay]

Originally Posted by KalMart

I don't think Zimmerman tried to specifically detain Martin, but it's likely that tempers flared on both sides and it quickly became a fight. Whether or not Zimmerman was decidedly losing or winning it at any point, Martin proceeded to bash his head against the pavement, and then it wasn't just a fight any more, it's a life-threatening assault and Zimmerman defended against it with his firearm.

Basically, Zimmerman may have reacted to the actual threat lawfully and rationally...but his lack of better judgment in following in the first place ultimately put them both in that situation. He probably didn't have to try and detain Martin to set him off in anger.

You say Martin bashed Zimmerman's head on the concrete, and I say he didn't.

I say that Martin never threatened Zimmerman's life. I say that Zimmerman's head injuries are not the injuries of a man who had his head "bashed" into concrete.

And there in lies the fundamental difference. I don't think that anything that happened that night warranted the use of deadly force on Zimmerman's part. I do think he specifically tried to detain Martin.

[Scar Predator]

Originally Posted by KalMart

Yes, he must have gotten someone to give him those injuries after the fact to cover up for it....that's not fishy at all.

Think about this: later that night, after thinking about his possible future, he realizes that people (particularly a jury) will be asking why he felt the need to shoot an unarmed minor. Everything hinges on the story that he's been brutally attacked. Yet he refused medical attention and only has a couple of minor abrasions on the back of his head.

As he thinks about facing a murder charge, he decides to whack himself in the face a couple of times and go get a family doc to examine him so his story looks more plausible. I've seen people (particularly those with MI issues as I think Zimmerman has) do a lot worse to themselves for lesser reasons.

You may think that's improbable. But so is a man who, when on a police video tape after the incident, looks uninjured and walks normally, yet the next day he has two black eyes and a broken nose. That doesn't add up.

[Scar Predator]

Originally Posted by Nell2ThaIzzay

You say Martin bashed Zimmerman's head on the concrete, and I say he didn't.

I say that Martin never threatened Zimmerman's life. I say that Zimmerman's head injuries are not the injuries of a man who had his head "bashed" into concrete.

And there in lies the fundamental difference. I don't think that anything that happened that night warranted the use of deadly force on Zimmerman's part. I do think he specifically tried to detain Martin.

His injuries on the police video look more like the result of a him being taken down or having rolled across a rough surface.

[KalMart]

Originally Posted by Nell2ThaIzzay

You say Martin bashed Zimmerman's head on the concrete, and I say he didn't.

So Zimmerman bashed his own head and gave himself those injuries? Okey-dokey.

Originally Posted by Nell2ThaIzzay

I say that Martin never threatened Zimmerman's life. I say that Zimmerman's head injuries are not the injuries of a man who had his head "bashed" into concrete.

As we've discussed, dangerous impact of someone's head on a hard surface doesn't always leave a gaping hole. You can actually hit your head pretty hard before a cut does form. So this is not good reasoning.

Originally Posted by Nell2ThaIzzay

And there in lies the fundamental difference. I don't think that anything that happened that night warranted the use of deadly force on Zimmerman's part. I do think he specifically tried to detain Martin.

See...the problem is, you like others want so desperately for Zimmerman to be a killer, someone who acted out of evil, that you're looking for loopholes in evidence and reasoning which very much supports what he is saying. It's not that anyone wants him to be completely devoid of responsibility...as I said, the decision to keep following was an unwise one. But that, and the way that events unfolded, do not make him a wanton murderer, or racists, or profiler, or so on. He put himself in a bad situation that deteriorated to a pint where he had to defend his life. Yeah, it's not as juicy or dramatic as a person who wanted to commit murder, or person who...after actually calling police and identified himself...still somehow took it upon himself to use deadly force outside of self-defense.

Yes, Martin's death was an unfortunate tragedy...yes, this is a situation that could have been avoided. But don't stick to a jaundiced outlook of it because you're looking to match that outrage with an act of evil when there's so much that points to a bad series of circumstances that did lead to a specific act of self-defense, but a confrontation that should have been avoided. You think Zimmerman didn't act out of self defense because you don't want that to be true, come hell or high water....moreso than wanting the actual truth to come through and for evidence to support that. Even though I don't support that, I understand the anger. The fact is that there is a strong possibility that what he is claiming is true, and there's more evidence to support his claims than against...and you must allow the law to let that come through to the best of its ability. Yes, Martin isn't around to counter it, but it still doesn't mean that if there's truth to it, it shouldn't be allowed to prove itself as such.

But again, you have very little to support this outlook of yours outside of the outrage over the tragedy, and the simple desire for Zimmerman to be found guilty. I understand how you feel, but it's times like this especially when the law has to be even more factual and evidence based.

[KalMart]

Originally Posted by Scar Predator

Think about this: later that night, after thinking about his possible future, he realizes that people (particularly a jury) will be asking why he felt the need to shoot an unarmed minor. Everything hinges on the story that he's been brutally attacked. Yet he refused medical attention and only has a couple of minor abrasions on the back of his head.

As he thinks about facing a murder charge, he decides to whack himself in the face a couple of times and go get a family doc to examine him so his story looks more plausible. I've seen people (particularly those with MI issues as I think Zimmerman has) do a lot worse to themselves for lesser reasons.

You may think that's improbable. But so is a man who, when on a police video tape after the incident, looks uninjured and walks normally, yet the next day he has two black eyes and a broken nose. That doesn't add up.

Or...what he said happened, happened like the medical and police reports and witnesses corroborate of the incident, and we thankfully won't have to stretch these conspiracy theories to include aliens and unicorns, either.


Let's be clear about this.....Zimmerman shooting out of anything outside of self-defense...THAT is the stretch here, that's the burden of proof that bares less likelihood...and that's why in the face of no new evidence or corroboration, all that's left is to somehow try to deconstruct all the evidence and support that there IS for Zimmerman's claim. That's not working well....it's grasping for straws with each turn. I would strongly recommend that you find evidence that independently supports itself, rater than try to chisel at a rock with a feather, so to speak.

[KalMart]

The problem with people not believing that Zimmerman shot out of self defense isn't that it doesn't make sense...it's because it's too boring of a script. People want the story of a racists murderer et al....a bad judgement followed by an ultimately simple disintegration of civility and calmness is just not sensational enough....it's just not a good enough banner in the face of racism in this world, of which we all share misgivings about. Sure, we all don't want see racism perpetuated, but it doesn't give us license to misdiagnose a case like this. The law needs to be exercised fairly across the board....no-one should be misjudged for the sake of compensating for something else....even if it'd be a great drama if they were.

[Scar Predator]

Originally Posted by KalMart

Or...what he said happened, happened like the medical and police reports corroborate of the incident, and we thankfully won't have to stretch these conspiracy theories to include aliens and unicorns, either.

He took someone's life. It's natural that people are going to ask why, especially when he initiated the contact.

If your validation for killing someone was based on a brutal beating, but your response to medical care is, "Nah, I get it later", of course that's going to seem strange.

[Scar Predator]

Originally Posted by KalMart

The problem with people not believing that Zimmerman shot out of self defense isn't that it doesn't make sense...it's because it's too boring of a script. People want the story of a racists murderer et al....a bad judgement followed by an ultimately simple disintegration of civility and calmness is just not sensational enough....it's just not a good enough banner in the face of racism in this world, of which we all share misgivings about. Sure, we all don't want see racism perpetuated, but it doesn't give us license to misdiagnose a case like this. The law needs to be exercised fairly across the board....no-one should be misjudged for the sake of compensating for something else....even if it'd be a great drama if they were.

Since I first heard of the case, I've doubted the racial motivation theory. Yet I still firmly believe that Zimmerman is an unbalance individual whose obsession with crime and conflict, coupled with extremely poor judgment, led to the unnecessary death of a man.

[KalMart]

Originally Posted by Scar Predator

He took someone's life.

In self-defense, to save his own.

Originally Posted by Scar Predator

It's natural that people are going to ask why, especially when he initiated the contact.

In self-defense...that's why. He initiated the proximity...actual contact we can't say for sure he did.

Originally Posted by Scar Predator

If your validation for killing someone was based on a brutal beating, but your response to medical care is, "Nah, I get it later", of course that's going to seem strange.

He had the right to refuse it, which he took. Doesn't mean he wasn't injured, or later realized, after the shock and adrenaline of the incident wore off, that he should have. People in serous car accidents refuse medical quite often when they really should be attended to, despite being able to walk and so on...done that myself. It's really not that strange...it is, if anything, unfortunate that he didn't get attention anyway for use in trial later on.

Again, the 'no medical' conspiracy speculation wouldn't hold up.

[KalMart]

Originally Posted by Scar Predator

Since I first heard of the case, I've doubted the racial motivation theory. Yet I still firmly believe that Zimmerman is an unbalance individual whose obsession with crime and conflict, coupled with extremely poor judgment, led to the unnecessary death of a man.

I do think he was unwise to keep following, and ultimately, there's responsibility on his part for the incident that happened to both because of that. But it doesn't make him a murderer, nor does it negate using his gun to defend himself from death or serous injury. Even in light of his 'neighborhood watch' status and enthusiasm, there's still no evidence that'd he'd be crazy enough to take the law into his own hands to that extent. People try to bring up that he had a police record, but they ignore that the charge dropped...they claim he had a bone to pick with blacks because he thought they're criminals, and they ignore the black neighbors who spoke in support of him as a person, who mentioned the high rate of crime in the specific area by suspects who happened to be black, and the black kids he works with, most likely not thinking they're criminals. One can't just cherry-pick and call him unbalanced when they're not taking a balanced view to begin with. There's nothing more 'unstable' about Zimmerman than really many people that we know in our own lives who we would never see as a potential murderer given the chance.

Basically, it's likely that the actual fight and shooting was as he described it....but it still shouldn't have gotten to that point. If they can't prove that he committed murder as legally defined and he goes free, then I think it's pretty certain there'll still be a civil suit for wrongful death...which I do think he's culpable for through the series of decisions that led to the death.