The "Hoodie" Incident: Controversial? Racist? - Part 2

[Scar Predator]

I think the prosecution needs to focus on why Zimmerman called the police and why he chose to follow Martin. It seems that Zimmerman had no justifiable cause for either, which makes him the catalyst for everything that happened.

All the rhetoric about who started the fight and who was screaming should be irrelevant unitl Zimmerman produces a viable reason for beginning a lethal chain of events.

[terry78]

^Basically it is Zimmerman's fault regardless, seeing as how the cops told him to do something and he failed to comply.

[Scar Predator]

Originally Posted by terry78

^Basically it is Zimmerman's fault regardless, seeing as how the cops told him to do something and he failed to comply.

That's how I see it. I haven't heard a single thing that negates Zimmerman's responsibility for the killing. Both of Zimmerman's judgment calls, at this point, seem prejudicial and reckless. Unless he can prove otherwise, he's guilty of murder.

[Varient]

Originally Posted by Scrandy Randy

An investigation was done at the time and it was decided that with the evidence they had Zimmerman's story added up and there was no point in charging him. At this point this is still pretty much the same, Corey's team hasn't come up with anything significant to change this..

Actually I suppose we read different things,.. seven hours of looking at it and then saying that yes it was self defense with no real effort to determine who the boy was and what he was doing there, (in the morg as a john Doe even though there was a phone on him?) I also read that someone wanted to charge him for the shooting and was overruled.

Originally Posted by Scrandy Randy

How exactly did Zimmerman entice Martin? Following & questioning someones whereabouts is in no way illegal. Martin attacking Zimmerman would only be justified if Zimmerman had been aggressive with Martin in anyway whether that be verbally(threatening him) or physically(pushing or trying to detain him)..

SMH,.. Didn't say he did,.. IMHO Zimmerman went after him after being told not to. We will never know what happened,.. I do find it too strange that if I were in any kind of official capacity,.. I would Identify myself,.. I find it unlikely that Zimmerman stated he was neighborhood watch,.. Just like I'd find it hard to believe if he did that someone would then attack him. It reads to me that Zimmerman accousted the teen maybe got stupid and put a hand on him while STILL not identifying himself, with intent to hold him for the police,... My own kids would have fought to get free from some guy grabbing them for no reason.
Hence My issue with the case - it makes no sense from anyway I look at it that if a person were faced with someone calling themselves the neighborhood watch that they would "attack that person."

Originally Posted by Scrandy Randy

Except it's not just Zimmerman's word. It's the bloody picture taken shortly after the altercation, it's the medical records O'Mara has detailing his injuries that he was ready and willing to submit, it's the three separate witness statements saying they saw Zimmerman's nose and head bandages the day after the incident, it's the initial investigator who saw nothing out of the ordinary to be able to charge Zimmerman, it's the eyewitness who said he saw Martin on top of Zimmerman.

What evidence is there exactly to dispute Zimmerman's story?.

SMH part 2 - Stories on the scene include people saying they heard something different, there was even word that the first cop on the scene spent time telling witnesses what they heard and telling them what they thought they heard was incorrect.

Originally Posted by Scrandy Randy

Now you're bringing race into this when that was never a motive behind this, ever. I question how you can even comment on this case when you still can't distinguish that what happened had nothing to do with race.

All I say here is where my concern comes from,.. those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it,... If Sanford had a rep as a clean police forced town,.. I could relax,.. but every indication from reports OUTSIDE the Trayvon killing dipict the police as dirty and quite willing to do dirt to the minorities.

Now you want to ignore the "setting" because it brings "color into it" I can't help you.

[chaseter]

Originally Posted by terry78

^Basically it is Zimmerman's fault regardless, seeing as how the cops told him to do something and he failed to comply.

Dispatchers aren't officers and the dispatcher didn't give a direct order. He told Zimmerman that he didn't have to do that (follow Trayvon).

It's Trayvon's and Zimmerman's fault. Trayvon already paid with his life. It's now up to the courts to decide how Zimmerman pays.

[Nell2ThaIzzay]

I don't think this is a blatant case of racism, I.E.: Zimmerman saw a "darkie" and wanted to take him out.

I do believe it to be a case of subtle racism, where Zimmerman saw a young kid who fit a profile (black, in a hoodie), and not knowing who he was, automatically assumed he was suspicious.

That is evidenced by the fact that Martin wasn't doing anything suspicious, and wasn't in a place he wasn't supposed to be, as he lived in the neighborhood (or was he visiting?). Zimmerman assumed Martin was on drugs, and this is backed up by him saying as much on the 911 call. That's quite an assumption to make.

I do believe it is 2nd degree murder because while Zimmerman didn't get out of his truck with intent to kill him a darkie... he didn't have to. That'd be 1st degree murder. This was not pre-meditated. Pre-meditation only applies to 1st degree. Zimmerman shot to kill, with intent.

Manslaughter means that Zimmerman was being careless - I.E. firing his gun into the air to celebrate New Year's, 4th of July, or just fooling around in general, and Martin got killed. That would be careless, reckless behavior on Zimmerman's part that didn't intend the death of someone, but his careless actions resulted in Martin's death.

Zimmerman's actions were to kill. So that leaves either 2nd degree murder, or self defense, and I don't believe self defense. The funeral director stated that Martin's body showed no sign of a fight - which means he wasn't pummeling Zimmerman to a point where his life was in danger. There's apparently a "one punch" theory that Martin knocked Zimmerman down with one shot. Well, one punch is not enough to warrant killing someone in self defense. Your life is not in danger at that point.

And for all we know, that's how Zimmerman got busted on the back of his head, if one punch took him down, perhaps he hit his head on the way down. I don't believe the story that Martin was on top of Zimmerman bashing his skull into the concrete.

I also don't believe the story of self defense because it doesn't take an expert to know that the voice screaming for help on the 911 call isn't Zimmerman. Is it Martin? I can't say for certain, but it certainly does seem that way when it is silenced immediately following the gunshot.

Martin certainly wouldn't be screaming for help if he was on top of Zimmerman pummeling him enough to warrant Zimmerman feeling his life was in danger. He would, however, be screaming if there was a man with a gun pointed at him.

[terry78]

Originally Posted by chaseter

Dispatchers aren't officers and the dispatcher didn't give a direct order. He told Zimmerman that he didn't have to do that (follow Trayvon).

It's Trayvon's and Zimmerman's fault. Trayvon already paid with his life. It's now up to the courts to decide how Zimmerman pays.

Well, that's kinda splitting hairs. Dispatch isn't a technical officer, but they're a liaison.

[Scrandy Randy]

Originally Posted by Varient

Actually I suppose we read different things,.. seven hours of looking at it and then saying that yes it was self defense with no real effort to determine who the boy was and what he was doing there, (in the morg as a john Doe even though there was a phone on him?) I also read that someone wanted to charge him for the shooting and was overruled.

Yes I do remember reading that one investigator wanted to charge him but him being overruled/looked over isn't some injustice. If the majority felt there was nothing to press charges over then one investigator isn't going to rule over the majority.

Originally Posted by Varient

SMH,.. Didn't say he did,.. IMHO Zimmerman went after him after being told not to. We will never know what happened,.. I do find it too strange that if I were in any kind of official capacity,.. I would Identify myself,.. I find it unlikely that Zimmerman stated he was neighborhood watch,.. Just like I'd find it hard to believe if he did that someone would then attack him. It reads to me that Zimmerman accousted the teen maybe got stupid and put a hand on him while STILL not identifying himself, with intent to hold him for the police,... My own kids would have fought to get free from some guy grabbing them for no reason.
Hence My issue with the case - it makes no sense from anyway I look at it that if a person were faced with someone calling themselves the neighborhood watch that they would "attack that person."

In your previous post you said Zimmerman incited the situation then you deny it here and go on to do it again. People read to much into the "We don't need you to do that" statement from the 911 operator. The operator wasn't trying to get him to stay in his car the statement is given so that Zimmerman doesn't approach or try and detain Martin and escalate the situation. They're trained to do that(keep a touchy situation from escalating). Zimmerman wasn't actually on neighborhood watch that night, he was going to get groceries. Even if he was he's not in any way required to identify himself. Looking at Martin's colorful past and it's not really that hard to see why he would attack Zimmerman. I don't feel like outlining the problems he had but would do so if you didn't see these things.

Originally Posted by Varient

SMH part 2 - Stories on the scene include people saying they heard something different, there was even word that the first cop on the scene spent time telling witnesses what they heard and telling them what they thought they heard was incorrect.

Like? The only report of a cop pressuring a witness was with the boy walking his dog at the time. This could be just as much down to the kid as it is the cop. After all he went to his mother later and got upset telling her he wasn't sure what he saw. His account most likely won't even be used in court and discrediting his account won't do anything to disprove Zimmerman's story.

The most important witness account was the one given by John who said -

"The guy on the bottom, who had a red sweater on, was yelling to me, 'Help! Help!' and I told him to stop, and I was calling 911," said the witness, who asked to be identified only by his first name, John.
John said he locked his patio door, ran upstairs and heard at least one gun shot. "And then, when I got upstairs and looked down, the guy who was on the top beating up the other guy, was the one laying in the grass, and I believe he was dead at that point."

We know for a fact that Zimmerman was the one wearing the red sweater that night based on the police department footage and the newly released picture of Zimmerman's bloody head.

Originally Posted by Varient

All I say here is where my concern comes from,.. those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it,... If Sanford had a rep as a clean police forced town,.. I could relax,.. but every indication from reports OUTSIDE the Trayvon killing dipict the police as dirty and quite willing to do dirt to the minorities.

Surely if the police department was so inept the special prosecutor and her crack team would have found some new damning evidence by now no? So how come the probable cause affidavit is paper thin? Why did O'Mara(Zimmerman's lawyer) completely grill one of the investigators the special prosecutor hired during Zimmerman's bond hearing?

By most if not all accounts all of Angel Corey and her cohorts work so far(the lack of new evidence, the murder 2 charge, the probable cause affidavit, the investigator being grilled by O'Mara at the bond hearing, etc) has been bush league and frowned upon.

Originally Posted by Varient

Now you want to ignore the "setting" because it brings "color into it" I can't help you.

I want to ignore it because you like many others want to make it a race issue when it was never a race issue. You can't be taken seriously when discussing this when you still can't put aside the fact that this incident was in no way based on the race of Trayvon Martin.

[chaseter]

Originally Posted by terry78

Well, that's kinda splitting hairs. Dispatch isn't a technical officer, but they're a liaison.

He didn't disobey an officer of the law and he wasn't given a command. That isn't splitting hairs. Saying he disobeyed an officer's command is manufacturing hair...if there is such a saying. If not, then I just made it up.

[Scrandy Randy]

Originally Posted by terry78

^Basically it is Zimmerman's fault regardless, seeing as how the cops told him to do something and he failed to comply.

No a 911 operator advised him to do something. The advice was to not pursue Martin and escalate the situation. He did that. Now lets pretend that Zimmerman didn't do what was asked of him, like someone has already said a 911 operator has no right to enforce any sort of law thus Zimmerman never broke a law even if we're pretending he ignored the dispatcher.

[Scrandy Randy]

Originally Posted by Nell2ThaIzzay

I do believe it to be a case of subtle racism, where Zimmerman saw a young kid who fit a profile (black, in a hoodie), and not knowing who he was, automatically assumed he was suspicious.

He assumed he was suspicious because he wasn't walking back to his house on the sidewalk. He was walking on the grass close to the backyards of houses and Zimmerman thought he was trying to look over the backyard fences for valuables.

Originally Posted by Nell2ThaIzzay

That is evidenced by the fact that Martin wasn't doing anything suspicious, and wasn't in a place he wasn't supposed to be, as he lived in the neighborhood (or was he visiting?). Zimmerman assumed Martin was on drugs, and this is backed up by him saying as much on the 911 call. That's quite an assumption to make.

That's not really a bold assumption to make at all. You've never seen someone acting weird in public and thought that person was either drunk or on drugs?

Originally Posted by Nell2ThaIzzay

Zimmerman's actions were to kill. So that leaves either 2nd degree murder, or self defense, and I don't believe self defense. The funeral director stated that Martin's body showed no sign of a fight - which means he wasn't pummeling Zimmerman to a point where his life was in danger. There's apparently a "one punch" theory that Martin knocked Zimmerman down with one shot. Well, one punch is not enough to warrant killing someone in self defense. Your life is not in danger at that point.

A funeral director is in no way qualified to make a statement like that. For a statement like that to be taken seriously it would need to be coming from a coroner. Now lets pretend a qualified coroner did make that statement. Just because his body showed no signs of being in a fight doesn't mean he was. By Zimmerman's account the fight was completely one sided in which case why would Martin's body show any signs of being in a fight? Zimmerman never fought back except when he discharged his firearm. The story from Zimmerman was one punch and then Martin started bashing his head into the concrete sidewalk. This is of course corroborated by the picture of his bloody head at the scene, his visible injuries on the police department footage, his lawyer being ready and willing to submit medical records, and the people in his neighborhood saying they saw him with bandages on his nose and head the next day.

Having your head bashed into concrete is more then enough to warrant self defense. Zimmerman doesn't know when or if Martin was going to stop at all. The possibility of being a vegetable for the rest of your life or possibly dead is more then enough to warrant self defense to that extent.

Originally Posted by Nell2ThaIzzay

And for all we know, that's how Zimmerman got busted on the back of his head, if one punch took him down, perhaps he hit his head on the way down. I don't believe the story that Martin was on top of Zimmerman bashing his skull into the concrete.

Why exactly do you not believe that? The eyewitness John and Zimmerman's story have both corroborated this.

Originally Posted by Nell2ThaIzzay

I also don't believe the story of self defense because it doesn't take an expert to know that the voice screaming for help on the 911 call isn't Zimmerman. Is it Martin? I can't say for certain, but it certainly does seem that way when it is silenced immediately following the gunshot.

How exactly can you be so certain it's not Zimmerman and probably Martin? I don't know how you can draw any conclusion from a grainy 911 call when the scream is already in the background to begin with.

[KalMart]

Martin's own father said that the voice wasn't Trayvon's either. It's not more or less likely to be either one or the other. But it's become pretty evident that the more evidence that has come out over the last few weeks is moreso in Zimmerman's favor in terms of not being a murderer....even though he still bears, I feel, a substantial culpability for putting himself in a situation that eventually resulted in the shooting.

The question, again, is whether by going for a 2nd degree murder charge, is it harder to prove beyond reasonable doubt, and does it also carry a higher risk of Zimmerman going free if it can't be proven beyond reasonable doubt...of which there pretty evidently is even now? Perhaps that's how it should be...he should have a fair trial only for 2nd degree murder, and if it's proven not to be, he should go free. In some ways, it'll be a good thing that the legal system did the right thing by not sentencing someone for what it didn't thoroughly prove him to be, but then again it'd be disappointing if he wasn't somehow held responsible for lack of good judgment. then again...perhaps this whole ordeal and the public scrutiny he'll likely carry for the rest of his life will be part of that.

[terry78]

Yeah, even if he does get off, he won't be able to walk around in public for a good while because there will always be those that felt he got off scott free.

[roach]

maybe for a couple of months but the public attention will move on to something else....just like Casey Anthony

[roach]

double post: so drink chocolatey Ovaltine

[Pink Ranger]

Originally Posted by terry78

Yeah, even if he does get off, he won't be able to walk around in public for a good while because there will always be those that felt he got off scott free.

Since Zimmerman believes so strongly in vigilante justice, it would be a fine outcome.

[roach]

eye for an eye is not justice....killing Zimmerman makes you just as wrong as he was...worst because its premeditated

[DV8]

Originally Posted by Scrandy Randy

That's not really a bold assumption to make at all. You've never seen someone acting weird in public and thought that person was either drunk or on drugs?

how is walking through the grass "weird"? how does that seem like the person is on drugs or drunk?

[Schlosser85]

I want to ignore it because you like many others want to make it a race issue when it was never a race issue. You can't be taken seriously when discussing this when you still can't put aside the fact that this incident was in no way based on the race of Trayvon Martin.

Unless you're psychic, I don't see how you can make that assumption with such unshakable certainty.

[chaseter]

Originally Posted by DV8

how is walking through the grass "weird"? how does that seem like the person is on drugs or drunk?

It was night, raining, and cold and he was walking behind the houses on a path with no umbrella or rain coat. Plus, there had been a string of recent burglaries. So, I wouldn't automatically think drug head but I would think they might be up to no good and be a bit worried. Zimmerman was not in the wrong for being suspicious. Idk if he was in the wrong for the death of Trayvon at this point.

[SuperT]

I think anyone who is simply just a neighborhood watch person that carries around a gun (WTH?) like some vigilante hero is automatically questionable at the least.

[Grillz]

This is true, Florida or not if a neighborhood watch person is carrying a gun like a "vigilante hero", you really have to keep an eye on that person; they act like a time bomb ready to jump on the first thing they see as a threat.

[DV8]

Originally Posted by chaseter

It was night, raining, and cold and he was walking behind the houses on a path with no umbrella or rain coat. Plus, there had been a string of recent burglaries. So, I wouldn't automatically think drug head but I would think they might be up to no good and be a bit worried. Zimmerman was not in the wrong for being suspicious. Idk if he was in the wrong for the death of Trayvon at this point.

it rains sporatically all the time in FL . . .

[Nell2ThaIzzay]

Originally Posted by chaseter

It was night, raining, and cold and he was walking behind the houses on a path with no umbrella or rain coat. Plus, there had been a string of recent burglaries. So, I wouldn't automatically think drug head but I would think they might be up to no good and be a bit worried. Zimmerman was not in the wrong for being suspicious. Idk if he was in the wrong for the death of Trayvon at this point.

Walking at night in the rain with no umbrella or rain coat is not suspicious. I do it all the time.

[terry78]

Not everyone uses umbrellas, especially young kids.