Kevin Feige says no to another Hulk Movie.

[blalex620]

Thank you for correcting my mistake

[metaphysician]

Originally Posted by TheVileOne

So basically the heroes betrayal was a good thing. Again Miek was the only guy who truly betrayed him. The Marvel heroes weren't actually the bad guys in the story. Hulk had a vendetta based on false pretenses established by Miek. The heroes didn't blow up Skaar.

This is irrelevant, though, because while the Illuminati actually did have a semi-decent justification for what they did, the *Hulk* was himself a straight out unjustifiable villain during WWH. He basically spent an entire crossover event proving the Illuminati right.

[metaphysician]

Originally Posted by blalex620

I think I'm one of the few who's not completely for the "good" hero. One of the reasons I love Marvel is because their heroes have real personalities and aren't all saints. Just because they're heroes doesn't mean they aren't humans with flaws who make decisions they think have the best intentions but turn out to lead to problems. What made WWH a good story to me is because it didn't portray Hulk as a villain but as a man who had everything taken from him and wanted to make those responsible pay. What would have turned him into a villain is if he would have taken Prof X even after the girl(forgot her name) said what she said.

Also I loved Civil War not just because it was hero vs hero (which I found cool) but because it was about both sides fighting for what they believed in. And for the record if we had superheroes in real life eventually something along the lines of the Superhero Registration Act would come to pass. It'd be inevitable.

Two things.

1. There is a *huge gap* between "heroes are not perfect" and "heroes don't exist"

2. The Registration Act was unjustifiable as only a very little of it had to do with identity and accountability. The rest had to do with enslavement and the burning of the Constitution. The former is moot in the MCU, which. . . just leaves the latter.

[metaphysician]

Originally Posted by cherokeesam

Yeah, if I ever see Mark Millar in real life, first thing I'm gonna ask him: "Why did you get the lead characters reversed in Civil War?" Cap would've logically been PRO-Reg, and Tony would've logically been ANTI-Reg. But apparently Millar had a hard-on for Cap, because he chose to make *him* the selfless martyr and Tony the fascist prick. Go figure.

Here's the thing: Cap *wouldn't* have been Pro-Reg, because the law in question was a complete abomination. Sure, he would in theory be in support of legitimate government oversight and accountability.

He would not be in support of slavery, which is what the Registration Act was.

[metaphysician]

Originally Posted by blalex620

And you talk about secret identities in the MCU the only people who knows everyone's identity is Fury and Shield. The government only knows who IM, Cap, and Hulk are same as the comics. Just because they haven't mentioned secret identities as much doesn't mean they aren't there or that they won't be there for other characters.

. . .SHIELD is a government agency!

[spideyboy_1111]

Originally Posted by metaphysician

. . .SHIELD is a government agency!

eh.. not exactly. they actually usually opperate ABOVE the US gov. thus the "world security council"

[cherokeesam]

Originally Posted by blalex620

And you talk about secret identities in the MCU the only people who knows everyone's identity is Fury and Shield. The government only knows who IM, Cap, and Hulk are same as the comics. Just because they haven't mentioned secret identities as much doesn't mean they aren't there or that they won't be there for other characters.

....wait, what?

"The only people (in the MCU) who know everyone's identity is Fury and SHIELD?"

Are you serious?
Tony went absolutely global-broadcast-live in telling the whole damn world that "I AM IRON MAN." EVERYBODY on the frickin' planet knows who Iron Man is. After the events of The Avengers, everybody on the frickin' planet knows who Captain America, The Hulk, Thor, Black Widow and Hawkeye are, too. They've become rockstars.

[blalex620]

Originally Posted by cherokeesam

....wait, what?

"The only people (in the MCU) who know everyone's identity is Fury and SHIELD?"

Are you serious?
Tony went absolutely global-broadcast-live in telling the whole damn world that "I AM IRON MAN." EVERYBODY on the frickin' planet knows who Iron Man is. After the events of The Avengers, everybody on the frickin' planet knows who Captain America, The Hulk, Thor, Black Widow and Hawkeye are, too. They've become rockstars.

Yes everyone knows who IM and Cap are. People don't know that the Hulk is Bruce Banner, and if they ever break out Thor's doctor secret identity people won't know who he is. And if I remember correctly Black Widow got away with her secret identity in IM2 so until I see proof in CA2 I'm inclined to believe her secret identity is still there(though I could be wrong) but Shield like any spy organization doesn't divulge it's members identities.

[TheVileOne]

Originally Posted by blalex620

Not at all. If you remember he also made a crack about being secretary of state..... Just like in the comics if the president took him serious enough to offer the job I'm sure some time down the road even in the films he'd take it. Take into account Tony is a narcissistic genius (who at that point was working for the government) then of course he would think following the registration act would be the most logical choice to protect everyone, heroes and normal people alike. And with Cap being the patriot fighter he is of course he'd support heroes rights to privacy. So in actuality they had it correct.

And it's already been proven in history that the general people are willing to sacrifice other people's rights for their "increased protection" i.e. the Patriot Act which anyone can see Marvel drew upon as inspiration for their SRA. So I'm sure this is exactly how it would happen in real life. All it takes is one incident involving "heroes" that results in people (especially children) being killed to cause the general public to want these "heroes" to be controlled. And as I stated it would be similar to the SRA but maybe not the exact same

Since Cap goes along with the Patriot Act, he would go along with Registration.

[TheVileOne]

Originally Posted by blalex620

Yes everyone knows who IM and Cap are. People don't know that the Hulk is Bruce Banner, and if they ever break out Thor's doctor secret identity people won't know who he is. And if I remember correctly Black Widow got away with her secret identity in IM2 so until I see proof in CA2 I'm inclined to believe her secret identity is still there(though I could be wrong) but Shield like any spy organization doesn't divulge it's members identities.

SHIELD and the World Security Council obviously knows their identities.

[blalex620]

Shield being the entity that they are of course know but I'm talking about the general public and the government (Shield may be part of the government but they act on two different levels). They do not know everyone's identity only some. And even in Shield it's usually Fury who knows everything not everyone. And even if the government does know everyones secret identities it's still a totally different ball game if there's an official list. At the end of the day an adaptation of Civil War is possible in the MCU

[cherokeesam]

Originally Posted by blalex620

Shield being the entity that they are of course know but I'm talking about the general public and the government (Shield may be part of the government but they act on two different levels). They do not know everyone's identity only some. And even in Shield it's usually Fury who knows everything not everyone. And even if the government does know everyones secret identities it's still a totally different ball game if there's an official list. At the end of the day an adaptation of Civil War is possible in the MCU

What I'm saying is there's no *motivation* for a Civil War in the MCU. Civil War comes about in the comics as a result of massive collateral damage created by irresponsible supers (well, actually, by the irresponsible producers of a reality TV show, but hey, why confront Mark Millar with one of many, many, many plotholes), and causes the superhero community to address the age-old question of "who watches the watchmen." Again, the reason it's necessary in the comics is because so many superheroes have been acting as masked vigilantes with no oversight, and no way for innocent civilians to protect themselves or seek redress against above-the-law godlings who act as judge, jury and executioner on city streets.

That scenario in no way, shape or form exists within the MCU. (Yet.) Nobody in the MCU tries to hide their identity; nobody in the MCU is a vigilante; nobody in the MCU even acts as a crimefighter. Until you start getting that kind of superhero in the mix, there's no impetus for a Civil War. MCU heroes are generally known to the public (SHIELD agents notwithstanding; but they're government agents already) and have shown no indication that they want to go around acting like Spider-Man or Punisher or Daredevil, arbitrarily meting out justice on their own terms.

[Dark Raven]

Originally Posted by cherokeesam

What I'm saying is there's no *motivation* for a Civil War in the MCU. Civil War comes about in the comics as a result of massive collateral damage created by irresponsible supers (well, actually, by the irresponsible producers of a reality TV show, but hey, why confront Mark Millar with one of many, many, many plotholes), and causes the superhero community to address the age-old question of "who watches the watchmen." Again, the reason it's necessary in the comics is because so many superheroes have been acting as masked vigilantes with no oversight, and no way for innocent civilians to protect themselves or seek redress against above-the-law godlings who act as judge, jury and executioner on city streets.

That scenario in no way, shape or form exists within the MCU. (Yet.) Nobody in the MCU tries to hide their identity; nobody in the MCU is a vigilante; nobody in the MCU even acts as a crimefighter. Until you start getting that kind of superhero in the mix, there's no impetus for a Civil War. MCU heroes are generally known to the public (SHIELD agents notwithstanding; but they're government agents already) and have shown no indication that they want to go around acting like Spider-Man or Punisher or Daredevil, arbitrarily meting out justice on their own terms.

Yeah, if you can get a Civil War out of the existing MCU, then next we should expect a civil war between the CIA, FBI, Homeland Security or any of these other non-vigilante, govt-sanctioned organisations... just because they don't agree with each other.

Even with a few vigilantes in the MCU like Punisher and Daredevil, whom Marvel do own, there aren't so many of them that it's out of hand. There could be as many as there are vigilantes in the real world who take matters into their own hands. Isn't Punisher's identity known anyway? It would only really be DD who has a secret identity, and whether he keeps it secret from SHIELD is another matter.

[Zarex]

Originally Posted by Dark Raven

Even with a few vigilantes in the MCU like Punisher and Daredevil, whom Marvel do own, there aren't so many of them that it's out of hand. There could be as many as there are vigilantes in the real world who take matters into their own hands. Isn't Punisher's identity known anyway? It would only really be DD who has a secret identity, and whether he keeps it secret from SHIELD is another matter.

A Civil War type of storyline won't work in the MCU for many of the reasons stated - no secret identities, a lack of vigilantes, Stark's anti government stance, and the fact that Thor is the only team member who hasn't been a government employee or contractor. I can't see Feige greenlighting a film of Fury chastising Odinson to fill out paperwork.

The idea of superhero registration, however, will probably be a major focus of the SHIELD tv show. The adulation given to the Avengers subsequent to the Chituari invasion will lead to a number of "wanna bes", ranging from non-powered concerned citizens putting on colorful costumes to wealthy corporations (and for-profit prisons) uilizing mechanical and biological enhancement for fun and profit. SHIELD's response could bleed into the MCU, though for now I'd prefer that the Avengers just punch Thanos.

[cherokeesam]

^That's exactly how I picture the SHIELD show working, too.

[spideyboy_1111]

to be fair... the avengers currently on the team, don't really have secret identities in the comics at the time of Civil War anyway... the identities part of civil war was truly only an issue for street level heroes. It was a moral argument for everyone else FORCE people to serve.

the current mcu really have no loved ones outside of shield or that they can't protect on their own to worry about an identity leak.

I think the argument for "no secret identities" is kinda redundant at this point because these same characters didn't have SI's in the books at the time either... CW shouldn't come into play until we have some street level heroes established, and have seen more of the MCU.

-Falcon
-Winter Soldier
-Ant-Man (if they want him on an anti-reg side)
-Wasp (if they want her on an anti-reg side)
-Doctor Strange

are all coming soon which 3 of those 5 were anti-reg....

there's also rumblings of Heroes for Hire coming (which would cement a decent anti-reg team) it'd be smaller scale than the books.. but it still could happen by the end of Phase 3

[TheVileOne]

Originally Posted by blalex620

Shield being the entity that they are of course know but I'm talking about the general public and the government (Shield may be part of the government but they act on two different levels). They do not know everyone's identity only some. And even in Shield it's usually Fury who knows everything not everyone. And even if the government does know everyones secret identities it's still a totally different ball game if there's an official list. At the end of the day an adaptation of Civil War is possible in the MCU

There is clearly an association with SHIELD and the government. The military is completely aware of SHIELD and have access to them as well

[spideyboy_1111]

Originally Posted by TheVileOne

There is clearly an association with SHIELD and the government. The military is completely aware of SHIELD and have access to them as well

that doesn't mean they know everything shield does... the military works with SHIELD, but SHIELD is a higher authority... the military has no control over SHIELD, but Fury can tell the military to stand down. but not vice versa

[TheVileOne]

So what? Does it matter that they know everything they do? My point is that SHIELD is not independent of the government.

The military works with them and has access to them. So obviously the government will know who they are as well. We don't know who the World Security Council is and/or their authority either. Powers Boothe could be the vice president for all we know.

[xeno000]

Originally Posted by spideyboy_1111

that doesn't mean they know everything shield does... the military works with SHIELD, but SHIELD is a higher authority... the military has no control over SHIELD, but Fury can tell the military to stand down. but not vice versa

SHIELD operates in the MCU sort of the way NATO does in the real world. It is an organization operated as an intergovernmental alliance of a number of countries for the protection of the Earth, above any one nation's military. One would assume that individual sponsor governments have representatives on the WSC and thus have access to information on members of the Avengers.

[spideyboy_1111]

Originally Posted by xeno000

SHIELD operates in the MCU sort of the way NATO does in the real world. It is an organization operated as an intergovernmental alliance of a number of countries for the protection of the Earth, above any one nation's military. One would assume that individual sponsor governments have representatives on the WSC and thus have access to information on members of the Avengers.

eh, the higher you go up in military rankings the more you know... SHIELD operates ABOVE the US military.. thus, SHIELD will always know MORE. and not everyone at SHIELD has clearance to know everything either.

[spideyboy_1111]

Originally Posted by TheVileOne

So what? Does it matter that they know everything they do? My point is that SHIELD is not independent of the government.

The military works with them and has access to them. So obviously the government will know who they are as well. We don't know who the World Security Council is and/or their authority either. Powers Boothe could be the vice president for all we know.

i wouldn't hold your breath on that. I think the US works WITH shield, not equal to shield. the only knowledge we have of the US military working with shield for sure, is from THE INCREDIBLE HULK where they had access to shield computer networks for tracking hulk. And in all honesty... of course shield would work with them on that... they're doing the dirty work in finding (and keeping tabs on hulk) for them, so they don't have to waste there resources. That's no proof that the military knows what's going on at shield

[TheVileOne]

No there isn't. But the point is that they are aware of SHIELD and know who they are and have some certain level of access to them.

[jaqua99]

Originally Posted by Zarex

A Civil War type of storyline won't work in the MCU for many of the reasons stated - no secret identities, a lack of vigilantes, Stark's anti government stance, and the fact that Thor is the only team member who hasn't been a government employee or contractor. I can't see Feige greenlighting a film of Fury chastising Odinson to fill out paperwork.

The idea of superhero registration, however, will probably be a major focus of the SHIELD tv show. The adulation given to the Avengers subsequent to the Chituari invasion will lead to a number of "wanna bes", ranging from non-powered concerned citizens putting on colorful costumes to wealthy corporations (and for-profit prisons) uilizing mechanical and biological enhancement for fun and profit. SHIELD's response could bleed into the MCU, though for now I'd prefer that the Avengers just punch Thanos.

Originally Posted by cherokeesam

^That's exactly how I picture the SHIELD show working, too.

I think the plot of the SHIELD show very well may play a part in why Coulson is alive.

[spideyboy_1111]

Originally Posted by TheVileOne

No there isn't. But the point is that they are aware of SHIELD and know who they are and have some certain level of access to them.

yes the US military is certainly aware of shield. but again, it's no indication of them knowing all about shield