The TDKR General Discussion & Speculation Thread (NOT A LOUNGE) - - - Part 58

[Blue Sugar]

Even if you have the direction and equipment it still takes something more fundamental to actually do what he does. That's why I love this Bruce Wayne so much. He is flawed and he is not self-made but yet he captures both my sympathy and admiration.

[Norek]

Sometimes I think certain 'fans' just want to see a word-by-word adaptation of their favorite take on a character or a specific comic about him. If not, everything else is just plain ****.

[redfirebird2008]

Originally Posted by Sharkboy

Yeah yeah yeah, and Bruce is G.W. bush in TDK, we've heard it all pal.

I laughed.

[Travesty]

Originally Posted by Boom

I do agree with the main point the guy is trying to make. Bruce does seem to have pretty much everything handed to him in Batman Begins - as far as direction and equipment are concerned. I hesitate to call him a self-made man in that film. That's been, and continues to be, one of my biggest irks about Nolan's franchise.

I think the same can be said about TDK. It's one of the basic critiques about the movie, in that Batman doesn't feel fully formed, and one reason why some feel a bit depressed about the 8 year hiatus that Bruce has been on between films. But of course, BB and TDK take place shortly after each other, so yes, these are Batman's rookie years, but it seems he may stay that way the entire series....we'll have to see what they do with TDKR.

[Nevincer]

Originally Posted by Blue Sugar

Even if you have the direction and equipment it still takes something more fundamental to actually do what he does. That's why I love this Bruce Wayne so much. He is flawed and he is not self-made but yet he captures both my sympathy and admiration.

[The Joker]

Originally Posted by Eggyman

Although I wouldn't give this guy my complete backing, I do agree with some of it.

Ditto. A lot of valid points made there.

Btw Eggy where have you been hiding yourself?

[Nevincer]

Originally Posted by Norek

Sometimes I think certain 'fans' just want to see a word-by-word adaptation of their favorite take on a character or a specific comic about him. If not, everything else is just plain ****.

It's not just you. Me and Raganork have discussed the same possibility in our chats

[Greens]

A movie with a Bruce Wayne who can make, solve and defeat everything and everyone by just glancing at it would be pretty boring.

[redfirebird2008]

Originally Posted by Boom

I do agree with the main point the guy is trying to make. Bruce does seem to have pretty much everything handed to him in Batman Begins - as far as direction and equipment are concerned. I hesitate to call him a self-made man in that film, and it bleeds over a little bit in TDK. That has been, and continues to be, one of my biggest irks about Nolan's franchise.

Could he ever be a self-made man when he was born into wealth? Seems like an odd concept to me. My biggest criticism of Nolan's Bruce would simply be on the intelligence front. He should be smarter, no doubt. But I wouldn't go so far as to call him "pathetic," and I absolutely think he shows plenty of heroic qualities in both BB and TDK.

[The Guard]

Of course Bruce could be a self made "man", in terms of "Batman". If he himself comes up with the idea that he must be more than a man, if he himself comes up with the idea that he must frighten criminals and become a symbol...and if he himself seeks out the training/knowledge to do so. BATMAN BEGINS works, but the nature of Bruce's origins is a far cry from what is in the comics, which Nolan and Goyer drew heavily from to begin with. Much of the good stuff in the origin is drawn right out of the comic book mythology.

The reason the Dark Knight (Or BB if you prefer) was game changing is because it changed the way several filmmakers approached making superhero movies (as evidenced by First Class). Maybe The Avengers will do the same thing in a different way, time will tell.

How did it change the approach to FIRST CLASS?

[MrWayne]

65??!! Wow, thats a long walk... we've got a lot of nothing to talk about till then LOL

More pictures and "random" speculations will have to suffice in the mean time...

[Travesty]

Originally Posted by redfirebird2008

Could he ever be a self-made man when he was born into wealth? Seems like an odd concept to me. My biggest criticism of Nolan's Bruce would simply be on the intelligence front. He should be smarter, no doubt. But I wouldn't go so far as to call him "pathetic," and I absolutely think he shows plenty of heroic qualities in both BB and TDK.

Well, in the comics, Bruce knows he has a mission the moment his parents are killed in front of him. In Nolan's, he doesn't realize it until he gets the slaps from Rachel, and even then, he doesn't know what he's going to do.

So in a sense, yes, Bruce grew up quickly in the comics, and yet, still seems to be wandering around confused about many things in these movies. It's just a difference between the two.

[redfirebird2008]

Originally Posted by The Guard

Of course Bruce could be a self made "man", in terms of "Batman". If he himself comes up with the idea that he must be more than a man, if he himself comes up with the idea that he must frighten criminals and become a symbol...and if he himself seeks out the training/knowledge to do so. BATMAN BEGINS works, but the nature of Bruce's origins is not nearly as compelling as whats in the comics, which Nolan and Goyer drew heavily from to begin with. Much of the good stuff in the origin is drawn right out of the comic book mythology.



Changed how?

How does FIRST CLASS evidence this? It has a villain every bit as thin as other comic book movies have had, the characters are mostly cyphers, except for Charles and Erik, which is to be expected, but even then, there's no great exploration of their concepts. The reason its a period film is that its largely held over from an abandoned X-MEN ORIGINS: MAGNETO script, one that existed before THE DARK KNIGHT was even written.

Vaughn didn't even cite TDK, but rather BB as an influence. He felt Nolan's "grounded" approach would work well for his X-Men movie, so went with a similar tone.

[OutOfBoose]

Originally Posted by The Guard

To me, it's BATMAN BEGINS that was the game changer. That's the film whose influence is most widely felt, even outside the superhero genre.

The Dark Knight is a game changer on personal level. I just can't watch any other super-hero movies anymore. The Avengers trailer makes me vomit. So did Cap. America, Green Lantern, G.I. Joe and Iron Man 2. Not sure about the new Spider-man for now. Probably, from the same league.

Batman Begins was great, but it didn't change anything. We got plenty of typical super-hero movies after that. Spider-man movies, Daredevil, Hulk movies and other. Beautiful, nice FX, but empty.

Probably, overall, the real game changer is X-Men or Spider-man. They started the decade of endless comic book movies.

[doobie]

I thought Watchmen was a good example of a film that tried to emulate TDKs tone and failed to be good. I am not a fan of the Watchmen movie for a few reasons.

To be a game changer though, does that mean there is going to be lots of big, philosophical superhero movies? I think Begins is the movie that gets copied most, for example I thought Hulk 08 and Iron Man were both hugely similar to Begins.

[Excelsior.]

Spider-man got his powers from a radioactive Spider. Did he even do one push up to earn it? What a jerk. How unheroic.

[Nevincer]

Originally Posted by MrWayne

65??!! Wow, thats a long walk... we've got a lot of nothing to talk about till then LOL

Not sure about Kane, but I was talking about the trailer hitting itself. No doubt this place will get trampled by the time it's simply announced.

[doobie]

I think the main admirable things that Bruce acheives in BB is to overcome his fear and shake off Ra's influence/control. Fat lot of good it did though as it just attracted Joker and Bane.

[Travesty]

Originally Posted by doobie

I thought Watchmen was a good example of a film that tried to emulate TDKs tone and failed to be good. I am not a fan of the Watchmen movie for a few reasons.

I don't see how Watchmen emulated TDK at all.

[Nevincer]

Originally Posted by doobie

To be a game changer though, does that mean there is going to be lots of big, philosophical superhero movies? I think Begins is the movie that gets copied most, for example I thought Hulk 08 and Iron Man were both hugely similar to Begins.

It's funny, if anything I thought the exact opposite. It was Ang Lee's Hulk that was similar to Begins IMO.

[The Joker]

Didn't they say The Man of Steel was being inspired by The Dark Knight in some way? I also recall Spidey director, Sam Raimi, saying TDK raised the bar for the superhero genre: http://www.cleveland.com/movies/inde...says_dark.html

[Excelsior.]

I thought Watchmen was a good example of a film that tried to emulate TDKs tone

Watchmen was in post production as Dark Knight came out so it would've had the same tone regardless.

[gorillanesthsia]

Originally Posted by doobie

I thought Watchmen was a good example of a film that tried to emulate TDKs tone and failed to be good. I am not a fan of the Watchmen movie for a few reasons.

To be a game changer though, does that mean there is going to be lots of big, philosophical superhero movies? I think Begins is the movie that gets copied most, for example I thought Hulk 08 and Iron Man were both hugely similar to Begins.

Why did you post this same thing in the JGL thread, delete it, and then post it here?

Whatever, I'll say the same thing anyways. Just because a movie is dark tonally doesn't mean it is copying Nolan. That's what I hated about all the things about the new Spider-Man mobie buzz. "They are copying Nolan!" "Marvel is stealing from the Batman franchise!" "Vigilante on the run? HA! Owned by DC!"

Spider-Man has his parents die, is a vigilante, uses tech. to help defeat villains, has a love interest that knows who he really is, is a detective, is a genius and all that was in the comics way before Nolan movies.

Comic book writers just copied each other.

[Eggyman]

Originally Posted by The Joker

Ditto. A lot of valid points made there.

Btw Eggy where have you been hiding yourself?

I'm always around, Lois.

I'm just less enthusiastic than I once was, mate. I watch, but I don't know a lot of the posters now, so find it hard committing to the cause the way I used to.

[The Guard]

Vaughn didn't even cite TDK, but rather BB as an influence. He felt Nolan's "grounded" approach would work well for his X-Men movie, so went with a similar tone.

I'm not sure what "tone" this is, other than taking the characters seriously. The characters still had had fantastic powers and were doing ridiculous feats. There was no overt attempt to ground the film in any kind of scientific reality. And if Vaughn grounded the film in reality, he did so about as well as Bryan Singer did, who had done it ten years prior, and eight years prior to TDK.

BATMAN BEGINS had a pretty clear impact on superhero origin film structures and origin film structures, period. You started to see a lot more origin movies and prequels, period, after BATMAN BEGINS and a couple other origin movies came out.