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Old 05-10-2012, 01:45 AM   #76
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Default Re: For those of you who've seen it, talk awards recognition

Don't get me wrong Hiddleston is great and he absolutely brings vulnerability to Loki which given the sort of character that he is a feat in itself, but personally I think that Fassbender,Mckellen and Ledger really took it to another level. Those guys made you think that not only that they will win, but also maybe that they should win.
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Prior to Ledger, McKellen undoubtedly held the number one spot. One the greatest on-screen villains. EVER.
Absolutely, Mckellen's Magneto seemed like a man that has suffered so much pain in his life that he's been made into this force of boiling anger. The man just emitted intensity.

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Old 05-10-2012, 03:26 AM   #77
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I can understand thinking Ledger was a superior Joker to Hiddleston's Loki, but I can't quite understand saying Nicholson's Joker is superior. Mainly because Ledger seemed liked a chameleon in that role, yet all I saw in the 89' Batman was Jack Nicholson playing Jack Nicholson.

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Old 05-10-2012, 03:39 AM   #78
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TDK is not sacred. It's my all-time favorite CBM but I've had my own criticisms with the film. In fact, I have list, but Ledger's Joker is perhaps the greatest performance in the CBM genre to date, and while Hiddleston's portrayal of Loki was exceptional, he was nowhere near Heath's Joker.
In your opinion. In mine, Ledger got a nomination because it was his last major performance and he was robbed of the Best Actor Oscar for Brokeback Mountain. The Academy does that sort of thing a lot. In my opinion, Hiddleston's Loki was a far more nuanced and masterful performance than was Ledger's. Loki's psychological manipulation of all of the other characters, and his deep understanding of their drives and motivations, put him a step above Joker.

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Old 05-10-2012, 03:58 AM   #79
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I don't even know what an oscar worthy movie is anymore
Roles such as prostitutes, drug-addicts, corrupt cops and not full-retard.

The day a CBM wins best picture is the day we are all old farts. TA will probably win a Saturn award. Besides if you could choose between breaking Box-Office records (the love of the movie going public) or winning Oscars (the love of a select few who do not represent what most people like, besides they snubbed the legendary Hitchcock) which would you choose? I go for the BO.


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Old 05-10-2012, 04:26 AM   #80
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Default Re: For those of you who've seen it, talk awards recognition

SFX and that's it, imo. I didn't see anything or anyone else that was Oscar-worthy.

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Old 05-10-2012, 04:58 AM   #81
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Default Re: For those of you who've seen it, talk awards recognition

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It has nothing to do with the timing. My issue is that he implies we prefer him to be dead so he can have an Oscar.

Uhhh, no, that's not what I'm implying. I'm implying that if HL had not died he would not have gotten the award.

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Old 05-10-2012, 04:59 AM   #82
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Roles such as prostitutes, drug-addicts, corrupt cops and not full-retard.

The day a CBM wins best picture is the day we are all old farts. TA will probably win a Saturn award. Besides if you could choose between breaking Box-Office records (the love of the movie going public) or winning Oscars (the love of a select few who do not represent what most people like, besides they snubbed the legendary Hitchcock) which would you choose? I go for the BO.

Agreed.

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Old 05-10-2012, 05:11 AM   #83
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Uhhh, no, that's not what I'm implying. I'm implying that if HL had not died he would not have gotten the award.
You worded it quite badly then. "I prefer him alive"? That can be interpreted that other people were okay with him dying because it helped his Oscar chances.

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Old 05-10-2012, 05:28 AM   #84
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In your opinion. In mine, Ledger got a nomination because it was his last major performance and he was robbed of the Best Actor Oscar for Brokeback Mountain. The Academy does that sort of thing a lot.
I agree with that!

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Old 05-10-2012, 05:50 AM   #85
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You worded it quite badly then. "I prefer him alive"? That can be interpreted that other people were okay with him dying because it helped his Oscar chances.
Fair enough.

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Old 05-10-2012, 07:42 AM   #86
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Default Re: For those of you who've seen it, talk awards recognition

I hope the thread isn't shut down or faced with mass post-deletions by mods, as there's actually some pretty good debate going on here save for one person bringing the tone of things down and trying to turn it into Avengers VS TDK mudslinging.

As far as Heath Ledger's Joker VS Tom Hiddleson's Loki goes, all I'll point out is: just because a character isn't multi-dimensional or conflicted, doesn't mean it's a great performance. Hannibal Lecter: one of the greatest screen villains ever, but there's very little development or change there. More recently, Javier Bardem won an Oscar for his portrayal of Anton Chigurh, very much a one-note force of primal evil. The Joker doesn't have a character arc. He's a fixed point who tears through the film, and facillitates the character development of others. But in the execution of that, Heath Ledger was utterly mesmerising, totally convincing in this role, one of the all-time great screen villains.

Tom Hiddleston's Loki was great too. Certainly the best comic book movie villain SINCE The Joker. But Heath Ledger still holds the #1 spot in my opinion, and I don't see that changing any time soon. That's not an anti Marvel/Avengers statement, by the way. I don't see Tom Hardy's Bane or Michael Shannon's Zod challenging him either, even though both Hardy and Shannon are top-notch actors.

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Old 05-10-2012, 08:22 AM   #87
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Default Re: For those of you who've seen it, talk awards recognition

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I wish people would stop using the term "nowhere near" it's stupid. If Tom Hiddleston's Loki is "nowhere near" McKellen/Fassbender or even Ledger then I truly wonder if people even know what acting is anymore.
Yes, we do.

But, are all we going to do a list of things we want the rest to stop saying in their posts?


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I can understand thinking Ledger was a superior Joker to Hiddleston's Loki, but I can't quite understand saying Nicholson's Joker is superior. Mainly because Ledger seemed liked a chameleon in that role, yet all I saw in the 89' Batman was Jack Nicholson playing Jack Nicholson.
And how is that a bad thing? Do people really think that good acting = chameleon? Not always. That's just one way to do it. Jack Nicholson playing Jack Nicholson is like Elvis Presley singing like Elvis Presley. Cannot think what's wrong with that. And I'm pretty sure Jack Nicholson doesn't kill people, gas people or laugh like that in his personal life. Actors usually say the most difficult part is always either your next role or yourself.



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In your opinion. In mine, Ledger got a nomination because it was his last major performance and he was robbed of the Best Actor Oscar for Brokeback Mountain. The Academy does that sort of thing a lot.
And Brokeback Mountain's role was more difficult that both Joker and Loki.



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In my opinion, Hiddleston's Loki was a far more nuanced and masterful performance than was Ledger's. Loki's psychological manipulation of all of the other characters, and his deep understanding of their drives and motivations, put him a step above Joker.
The character implies those haracteristics, but where were they on screen? He felt more like a super-powered manipulator than someone with a skilfull manipulating ability. And give me a break, like Joker didn't have a deep understanding of other character's drives and motivations... but he manipulated without a magic stick.



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Uhhh, no, that's not what I'm implying. I'm implying that if HL had not died he would not have gotten the award.
Something we are dying to hear the evidence of.

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Old 05-10-2012, 10:09 AM   #88
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Default Re: For those of you who've seen it, talk awards recognition

Hiddleston was good, and he certainly brought a little bit of nuance to Loki, and clearly had fun. But it wasn't anything close to an Oscar caliber performance. He played the character very broadly, and somewhat over the top.

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Old 05-10-2012, 10:17 AM   #89
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Yeah, Hiddleston was great, clearly had a lot of fun in the role and, for me, still is the perfect choice to play Loki. You can tell he really cares about his character. With that said, there wasn't anything "above and beyond" about his or anyone else's performances in the film.

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Old 05-10-2012, 10:30 AM   #90
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It should get an Oscar nomination for Costume Design, no doubt in my mind, especially for Thor's and Loki's costumes.

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Old 05-10-2012, 10:59 AM   #91
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Default Re: For those of you who've seen it, talk awards recognition

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In your opinion. In mine, Ledger got a nomination because it was his last major performance and he was robbed of the Best Actor Oscar for Brokeback Mountain. The Academy does that sort of thing a lot. In my opinion, Hiddleston's Loki was a far more nuanced and masterful performance than was Ledger's. Loki's psychological manipulation of all of the other characters, and his deep understanding of their drives and motivations, put him a step above Joker.
This is true, and it's no insult to Heath to say so. It happens all the time with the Oscars, for example Julie Andrews was given best actress for Mary Poppins, because Audrey Hepburn was cast in the movie production of My Fair Lady, which won best picture (and Rex Harrison best actor), even though Julie Andrews was in the roll for the Broadway production and sang most of the songs on the soundtrack that were lip synced by Hepburn.

It's not that Heath didn't deserve it for the Joker, but there is defintely a sense of "it's your turn now" to giving out Oscars and when Heath didn't get it for BBM, the thought was, he's young and he'll have plenty of more chances. Had he been alive, he would have been nominated, but they probably would have given the oscar to someone else. Again this is no knock on Heath it's just how the Oscars work.

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Old 05-10-2012, 11:02 AM   #92
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The Academy changed the ruling last year. They longer have to nominate 10 pictures anymore, but if they want and think that there are enough great movies in a year to warrant recognition, they can do so up to 10 movies. So if they deem there are only 6 or 7 worthy candidates, they will nominate only those 6 or 7, and not 10. A Best Picture nod for The Avengers is out of the question.
I did not know that. Thanks for the update. As I said I only gave that a slim chance. I think they do look at those picutres, and I think there was pressure to nominate the Dark Knight when it came around, and also there was alot of talk that they were going to nominate the Abrams Star Trek movie when they were forced to 10 films. But yeah I'm not expecting this.

I do think supporting actor, and screen play are still possibilities. Obviously I don't expect them to win in any of those even if they are nominated.

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Old 05-10-2012, 11:11 AM   #93
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Actually Best Picture seems more likely than Best Director or any acting awards. There are plenty of good performances in the film, but nothing is above and beyond the norm. It could get a Best Picture nod simply because they CAN nominate up to 10 films and they can get more views and better TV ratings(which the plus 10 rule was added simply for after TDK debacle) simply by nominating The Avengers with no intention of giving it the award.

Also Loki only had one menacing scene(acting wise) in the whole film and that was when he talks with Black Widow. There wasn't enough non-action screen time for Tom to flex his acting muscles, where as Heath had gobs of non-action screen time for him to strut his stuff.

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Old 05-10-2012, 11:33 AM   #94
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Actually Best Picture seems more likely than Best Director or any acting awards. There are plenty of good performances in the film, but nothing is above and beyond the norm. It could get a Best Picture nod simply because they CAN nominate up to 10 films and they can get more views and better TV ratings(which the plus 10 rule was added simply for after TDK debacle) simply by nominating The Avengers with no intention of giving it the award.

Also Loki only had one menacing scene(acting wise) in the whole film and that was when he talks with Black Widow. There wasn't enough non-action screen time for Tom to flex his acting muscles, where as Heath had gobs of non-action screen time for him to strut his stuff.
I can see this, but that's why I say best supporting actor. Because that seems to be the Academy's sympathy award catagory. For example Sean Connery was nominated for the untouchables for best supporting actor, when he probably should have won for several other roles he did over the years. Same goes for last year with Christopher Plummer, and Max von Sydow.

But the TDK debacle came from the fact that they were giving Heath the acting award, so they figured that was it's due.

The Academy hates big budget blockbusters, and given the choice between a small art house film and film like TDK/Avengers, they will pick the arthouse movie 9 times out of 10.

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Old 05-10-2012, 11:34 AM   #95
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Default Re: For those of you who've seen it, talk awards recognition

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In your opinion. In mine, Ledger got a nomination because it was his last major performance and he was robbed of the Best Actor Oscar for Brokeback Mountain. The Academy does that sort of thing a lot. In my opinion, Hiddleston's Loki was a far more nuanced and masterful performance than was Ledger's. Loki's psychological manipulation of all of the other characters, and his deep understanding of their drives and motivations, put him a step above Joker.
Talk about favoritism.

It is unquestionably your opinion, but I gotta tell you, I don't know how you could rank Hiddleston's Loki higher Ledger's Joker. Hiddleston was overshadowed by the ensemble cast and the material he was working with wasn't as emotionally engaging and menacing as it was in Thor.

This isn't anti-Marvel nonsense (how could it be if I had McKellen as my number one CBM villain before the arrival of Heath's Joker), it's our honest opinions and views. So while Tom had a noteworthy and excellent performance, it wasn't paramount and unparalleled. How much so? Take a look back. The Joker took 2008 by storm. Virtually every critic was praising Heath's acting abilities. Acting acclamation and death don't go hand-by-hand. If so, Heath's role in The Imaginarium of Doctor Parnassus would have garnered gushing reviews as well.

In my honest opinion, Ledger's performance can be topped by another gifted actor (with fantastic material) down the road but it wasn't done by Tom Hiddleston and Joss Whedon.

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Old 05-10-2012, 01:39 PM   #96
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Hiddleston has gotten a lot of praise as well. It's true that it's not as unanimous as Ledger, who I agree was better, but it's also somewhat to do with having a stronger ensemble cast, meaning Downey, Ruffalo, and Johannson are also getting some of the acting acclaim, whereas with Dark Knight any mention of a stand out performance went straight to Ledger.

That being said, I do agree that Hiddleston doesn't have the impact of Ledger overall, but I also think it points to how ludicrous it is to compare any performances, even "villain in comic book movie" performances, when there are so many other factors (the character they are playing, they way they are written, the tone of the film, etc.) in play. I will say that Hiddleston manages to go toe to toe with both SMJ and RDJ in the film and more than holds his own, which not many actors can do. His scenes with Hemsworth are very strong too.

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Old 05-10-2012, 01:48 PM   #97
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It should get an Oscar nomination for Costume Design, no doubt in my mind, especially for Thor's and Loki's costumes.
Iron Man's suit(s) are up there too.

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Old 05-10-2012, 02:07 PM   #98
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I would not be surprised if Hiddleston got an Oscar nom.

Another best villain in my mind are Danny De Vito as Penguin (I could not believe it was him to this day). Probably his most unique role.

Not villains, but I felt Mickey Rourke as Marv in Sin City as well as Jackie Earle Haley as Rorshach in Watchmen were Oscar nom worthy.

But the sad reality is that CBM, Action, Sci-Fi and Horror are largely ignored by the academy. I guess that's why there exists the Saturn awards.

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Old 05-10-2012, 02:21 PM   #99
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Default Re: For those of you who've seen it, talk awards recognition

Shadowlord X, I didn't see your comment until today, but guess what...saying you prefer Hiddleston alive was a direct attack on Nolan fans, and if you didn't see my announcement, that earned you a probation for 3 months and an infraction.

Also, if you guys haven't figured it out yet....STOP THE STUPID EGO CONTEST BETWEEN NOLAN FANS AND AVENGERS FANS!!! IF YOU CAN'T MENTION EITHER WITHOUT BEING A MORON, THEN LEAVE PEACEFULLY OR I WILL FORCE YOU TO LEAVE...POSSIBLY FOREVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Old 05-10-2012, 02:25 PM   #100
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Default Re: For those of you who've seen it, talk awards recognition

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Hiddleston has gotten a lot of praise as well. It's true that it's not as unanimous as Ledger, who I agree was better, but it's also somewhat to do with having a stronger ensemble cast, meaning Downey, Ruffalo, and Johannson are also getting some of the acting acclaim, whereas with Dark Knight any mention of a stand out performance went straight to Ledger.

That being said, I do agree that Hiddleston doesn't have the impact of Ledger overall, but I also think it points to how ludicrous it is to compare any performances, even "villain in comic book movie" performances, when there are so many other factors (the character they are playing, they way they are written, the tone of the film, etc.) in play. I will say that Hiddleston manages to go toe to toe with both SMJ and RDJ in the film and more than holds his own, which not many actors can do. His scenes with Hemsworth are very strong too.
Oh, no doubt. The ensemble cast was absolutely filled with stellar actors but TDK's cast was no less stellar than The Avengers. Heath Ledger had to contend with the likes of Christian Bale, Gary Oldman, Aaron Eckhart, Morgan Freeman and Michael Caine. While no easy feat, Ledger stole the spotlight from these academy-nominated and award-winning actors.

The problem with why Hiddleston didn't shine the way he did in Thor was more than just RDJ, Ruffalo and Hemsworth, it was the script that limited Tom. Joss had to balance a large number of characters in The Avengers, so there had to be trimming of character's arc (compared to Heath's and Nolan's Joker where the role was built around with more prolific writing).

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