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Old 05-07-2013, 02:48 PM   #176
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Default Re: Guy Pearce is Aldrich Killian

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Apples and oranges. The Ten Rings were not mentioned AT ALL in Iron Man 3. Only their symbol was. There no verbal reference to these guys being the ones involved in what happened with Tony in IM1, or working with Stane etc.

Not a whisper. Whereas TDKR talks heavily about it's link to the villain of Batman Begins, Ra's Al Ghul. It also talks heavily about Harvey Dent, and all the repercussions because of him and what Joker did to him, the cover up etc weigh heavily on TDKR, too.

That's why TDKR is better. It feels like a real trilogy because it takes a lot of things from both previous movies and ties them together as one complete story. It doesn't rely on Chris Nolan telling us something we should know just by watching the movie on a special feature.



But that's just it, it's not a running theme in the trilogy because nobody would have a clue they were in IM2. A theme is noticeable. In this case it's not.
Errr you can watch Batman begins and TDKR back to back with no confusion at all save for you not knowing why Bruce quit or why Rachel is dead. League of shadows has NOTHING to do with TDK... how is that any different than 10 rings in IM1 and IM3?

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Old 05-07-2013, 02:50 PM   #177
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To be fair, the crime scene resconstruction in Iron Man 3 made sense. Even after a dozen viewings, I still have no damn idea how Wayne acquired fingerprints from a computer manipulation of a hole in a wall. And I like The Dark Knight; it is just that that scene gives me a headache,the same way the chase scenes does for some people.
He reconstructed bullet fragments and found a fingerprint from who loaded the round... However this would only make sense for caseless ammunition as you'd only get a partial at best on the bullet itself

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Old 05-07-2013, 03:10 PM   #178
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Default Re: Guy Pearce is Aldrich Killian

Oh, I get it now. I was wondering why people were so worked up over the Ten Rings involvement/lack of involvement. We're making this a Marvel vs DC thing. Yep, that's totally appropriate!

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Old 05-07-2013, 03:14 PM   #179
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But how do you know that? How do you know they were not concentrated at that camp? Why would Stane bother to kill them all if he wasn't trying to remove any witnesses or loose ends? If there was more of them out there they could easily seek retribution against Stane for that.
it's known from the news coverage in IM1

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Old 05-07-2013, 04:33 PM   #180
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Killian didn't need ten rings. He was able to nearly kill Tony, blow up his house, put him out of comission as Iron Man for a while and lead him, Iron Patriot and the entire US Governmen to chase their tails all while never lifting a finger and doing all his work behind the scenes without interference.

Now THAT'S a bad guy.

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Old 05-07-2013, 04:49 PM   #181
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Default Re: Guy Pearce is Aldrich Killian

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Errr you can watch Batman begins and TDKR back to back with no confusion at all save for you not knowing why Bruce quit or why Rachel is dead. League of shadows has NOTHING to do with TDK... how is that any different than 10 rings in IM1 and IM3?
Not that this is the Batman forums, but what you're saying is beyond ridiculous. Even the reasons why Bruce quits and why Rachel is dead are very important and addressed several times throughout the movie, and I challenge you to find someone who hasn't seen the trilogy, let them see BB and then TDKR and tell me they weren't confused...

Just to think about it, even the little things would be confusing - one ends with a young Bruce Wayne who just started as Batman, with a brand new Bat-signal on the roof of GPD, the next one begins with a much older Bruce, with an old destroyed Bat-signal.

As Joker said, TDKR is a perfect example of a third film following up and building on themes and elements from both previous movies, shaping up a complete trilogy. IM3 (and the IM trilogy in general) is NOTHING, and I mean NOTHING like that.

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Old 05-07-2013, 05:19 PM   #182
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Default Re: Guy Pearce is Aldrich Killian

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it's known from the news coverage in IM1
Which one?

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Errr you can watch Batman begins and TDKR back to back with no confusion at all save for you not knowing why Bruce quit or why Rachel is dead. League of shadows has NOTHING to do with TDK... how is that any different than 10 rings in IM1 and IM3?
I never said the LOS was in TDK. Neither did Chris Nolan. That's the difference. Nolan's not claiming some obscure random character is an LOS agent somewhere in TDK, unlike where IM2 supposedly has a Ten Rings member helping Vanko.

Furthermore if you watched BB and TDKR back to back, you'd have no clue about who Harvey Dent was, what this cover up is about regarding him, why is Blake saying Batman killed a bunch of people, why Gordon's feeling so guilty, Rachel's death, the fall out between Alfred and Bruce over some letter Rachel wrote, why is Bruce limping with a cane, the Cops chasing Batman because he's "the son of a b&tch who killed Harvey Dent", Bane exposing the Dent cover up on TV etc.

There's a ton of baggage carried over from TDK. Heck the very first scene in TDKR is Gordon talking about Dent at his funeral. Now with Iron Man 1 and 3, you could skip over 2, because the only things you'd need to know from 2 was Rhodey becoming War Machine and Pepper getting a CEO promotion. All the main storylines in 2 are irrelevant.

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Old 05-07-2013, 05:36 PM   #183
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Default Re: Guy Pearce is Aldrich Killian

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I never said the LOS was in TDK. Neither did Chris Nolan. That's the difference. Nolan's not claiming some obscure random character is an LOS agent somewhere in TDK, unlike where IM2 supposedly has a Ten Rings member helping Vanko.

Furthermore if you watched BB and TDKR back to back, you'd have no clue about who Harvey Dent was, what this cover up is about regarding him, why is Blake saying Batman killed a bunch of people, why Gordon's feeling so guilty, Rachel's death, the fall out between Alfred and Bruce over some letter Rachel wrote, why is Bruce limping with a cane, the Cops chasing Batman because he's "the son of a b&tch who killed Harvey Dent", Bane exposing the Dent cover up on TV etc.

There's a ton of baggage carried over from TDK. Heck the very first scene in TDKR is Gordon talking about Dent at his funeral. Now with Iron Man 1 and 3, you could skip over 2, because the only things you'd need to know from 2 was Rhodey becoming War Machine and Pepper getting a CEO promotion. All the main storylines in 2 are irrelevant.
All very true. TDKR carries as much elements from TDK as it does from BB. I would agree that it's easier to skip BB and go directly to TDK, but TDKR is very much dependent on both the first and the second film.

IM3 on the other hand depends more on TA than on IM2.

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Old 05-07-2013, 11:26 PM   #184
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Default Re: Guy Pearce is Aldrich Killian

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Killian didn't need ten rings. He was able to nearly kill Tony, blow up his house, put him out of comission as Iron Man for a while and lead him, Iron Patriot and the entire US Governmen to chase their tails all while never lifting a finger and doing all his work behind the scenes without interference.

Now THAT'S a bad guy.
You do realise that he was able to do that because of the smokescreen of the Ten Rings and Mandarin, right?

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Old 05-07-2013, 11:32 PM   #185
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Default Re: Guy Pearce is Aldrich Killian

The Ten Rings wasn't a ' smokescreen'.

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Old 05-08-2013, 04:58 AM   #186
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The Ten Rings wasn't a ' smokescreen'.
How do you figure? They worked for the Mandarin which was Killain's alias with Kinglsey's character as the public face. I don't see anything that points to them knowing they really worked for Killian and AIM.

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Old 05-08-2013, 07:29 AM   #187
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Default Re: Guy Pearce is Aldrich Killian

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You do realise that he was able to do that because of the smokescreen of the Ten Rings and Mandarin, right?

And you do realize that they all answer to Killian, the real Mandarin, right?

Ergo, Killian --- i.e., The Mandarin --- is still one hell of a bad guy.

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Old 05-08-2013, 09:39 AM   #188
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Back to topic, I thought Pearce was the highlight of the movie. Unfortunately, I must've missed what he was trying to accomplish with his grand plan besides blowing stuff up.

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Old 05-08-2013, 09:41 AM   #189
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How do you figure? They worked for the Mandarin which was Killain's alias with Kinglsey's character as the public face. I don't see anything that points to them knowing they really worked for Killian and AIM.
The term 'smokescreen' implies to me that Killian merely appropriated the Ten Rings organization and their associated ideology as part of his scheme and wasn't actually affiliated with the group even by proxy (Slattery), which isn't the way Marvel approached things.

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Old 05-08-2013, 09:50 AM   #190
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Back to topic, I thought Pearce was the highlight of the movie. Unfortunately, I must've missed what he was trying to accomplish with his grand plan besides blowing stuff up.
He said it on screen. The Vice president (who he wanted to make president by offing the current) in one hand and the world's most feared terrorist in the other. He said he would control supply and demand for his extremist soldiers and their buddies, profit off both sides of the war.

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Old 05-08-2013, 01:46 PM   #191
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You do realise that he was able to do that because of the smokescreen of the Ten Rings and Mandarin, right?
Exactly my point. That illusion he created is what got them all to chase their own tails while he did all I mentioned.

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Old 05-09-2013, 06:14 AM   #192
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And you do realize that they all answer to Killian, the real Mandarin, right?

Ergo, Killian --- i.e., The Mandarin --- is still one hell of a bad guy.
Show me where I said otherwise.


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The term 'smokescreen' implies to me that Killian merely appropriated the Ten Rings organization and their associated ideology as part of his scheme and wasn't actually affiliated with the group even by proxy (Slattery), which isn't the way Marvel approached things.
No, it doesn't. Where did you come up with that? Smokescreen just means to conceal something. http://www.thefreedictionary.com/smokescreen

Killian created the Mandarin and the Ten Rings so he could commit acts of terrorism without people connecting him and AIM to them. Killian concealed his presence through the Mandarin and the Ten Rings (i.e. a smoke screen). I've yet to hear anything that says the Ten Rings existed before Killian and AIM.


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Exactly my point. That illusion he created is what got them all to chase their own tails while he did all I mentioned.
Fair enough, but you did say he didn't need the Ten Rings. He clearly did as they were a crucial part of his plans for profiteering off both sides of the war against terror.

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Old 05-09-2013, 07:44 AM   #193
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He needed SOME group to take credit for the terrorism so yes Ten Rings was a smokescreen.

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Old 05-09-2013, 08:00 AM   #194
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Show me where I said otherwise.




No, it doesn't. Where did you come up with that? Smokescreen just means to conceal something. http://www.thefreedictionary.com/smokescreen

Killian created the Mandarin and the Ten Rings so he could commit acts of terrorism without people connecting him and AIM to them. Killian concealed his presence through the Mandarin and the Ten Rings (i.e. a smoke screen). I've yet to hear anything that says the Ten Rings existed before Killian and AIM.




Fair enough, but you did say he didn't need the Ten Rings. He clearly did as they were a crucial part of his plans for profiteering off both sides of the war against terror.
Did SHIELD or the Air Force or anybody else have any intel on Ten Rings at the start of IM1? It's been awhile since I cherrypicked the movie, but it seems to me that Ten Rings wasn't a known terrorist group at the time of Stark's abduction.

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Old 05-09-2013, 08:22 AM   #195
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Did SHIELD or the Air Force or anybody else have any intel on Ten Rings at the start of IM1? It's been awhile since I cherrypicked the movie, but it seems to me that Ten Rings wasn't a known terrorist group at the time of Stark's abduction.
Well they were in the news

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Old 05-09-2013, 09:05 AM   #196
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Ten rings appeared with their symbol in the news casts before Tony kicked everybody's butt in the Mark III. And the dropping of the plotline from Iron Man is the only real bit that I would consider a failure with the bad guys. I think it can be implied they were still working as AIM's henchmen when they captured Stark, but a throw away line would have been nice.

And yeah, Pierce was an effective villain and a guy you loved to hate. His biggest weakness execution wise was the distinct lack of iconography that usually identifies a super villain. They did a great job of costuming up Ben Kingsley in a nice suit and surrounding him with dynamic images, while Killian only looks like the real Mandarin once he's lost his shirt at the very end. So Killian was a great villain, but he kind of got less time to show it and to wow us with his presence. Some people are still going to call this guy "Guy Pierce's bad guy," while baddies like the Red Skull or Loki will still seem cooler and better portrayed.

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Old 05-09-2013, 01:48 PM   #197
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Ten rings appeared with their symbol in the news casts before Tony kicked everybody's butt in the Mark III. And the dropping of the plotline from Iron Man is the only real bit that I would consider a failure with the bad guys. I think it can be implied they were still working as AIM's henchmen when they captured Stark, but a throw away line would have been nice.

And yeah, Pierce was an effective villain and a guy you loved to hate. His biggest weakness execution wise was the distinct lack of iconography that usually identifies a super villain. They did a great job of costuming up Ben Kingsley in a nice suit and surrounding him with dynamic images, while Killian only looks like the real Mandarin once he's lost his shirt at the very end. So Killian was a great villain, but he kind of got less time to show it and to wow us with his presence. Some people are still going to call this guy "Guy Pierce's bad guy," while baddies like the Red Skull or Loki will still seem cooler and better portrayed.
See, I think over the top can be over used. I love Loki, he's my favorite. But Killian has to be my second favorite because of the fact he's hiding out in the open. Not every villain should be over the top. Killian only became over the top once he decided brute force was needed.

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Old 05-09-2013, 02:37 PM   #198
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Default Re: Guy Pearce is Aldrich Killian

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Did SHIELD or the Air Force or anybody else have any intel on Ten Rings at the start of IM1? It's been awhile since I cherrypicked the movie, but it seems to me that Ten Rings wasn't a known terrorist group at the time of Stark's abduction.
I'm not sure they ever went into how notable a terrorist organisation the Ten Rings were in IM1. Though similarly it's been a long time since I've watched it. I'm not sure what your point is either.

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He needed SOME group to take credit for the terrorism so yes Ten Rings was a smokescreen.
And the Ten Rings filled that gap. So what's the problem?

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Old 05-09-2013, 07:12 PM   #199
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Default Re: Guy Pearce is Aldrich Killian

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I'm not sure they ever went into how notable a terrorist organisation the Ten Rings were in IM1. Though similarly it's been a long time since I've watched it. I'm not sure what your point is either.



And the Ten Rings filled that gap. So what's the problem?
Why does everything have to be a "point"? I was just asking a simple question.

I was just wondering about just exactly how long Killian has been "The Mandarin." i.e., I was wondering if Ten Rings existed before Killian, or if he actually created them as part of "the ruse," making it even more elaborate and twisted.

Personally, I think the scheme and backstory just makes a lot more sense if we assume that Ten Rings was a legit al-Qaeda style organization, but Killian didn't get involved with them until he decided he needed them to create a smokescreen for the exploding test subjects.

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Old 05-09-2013, 08:30 PM   #200
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Did SHIELD or the Air Force or anybody else have any intel on Ten Rings at the start of IM1? It's been awhile since I cherrypicked the movie, but it seems to me that Ten Rings wasn't a known terrorist group at the time of Stark's abduction.
seemed to me that they were a stand-in for the Taliban. given their diverse membership, they couldn't have started up over night. they'd need a reputation to amass so many recruits. Yinsen seemed to know all about them. and, of course, Stane knew.

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