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Old 04-29-2012, 01:40 PM   #301
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Default Re: The Official 'Hulk in Avengers' thread. - Part 8

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Also, in my opinion :

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Some people claim that the fight between Thor and Hulk resulted in a stalemate, but I disagree. I think it was clear that Thor was outmatched as the fight progressed. I think if the fight had continued for much longer I think Hulk would have done serious damage to Thor, at least that's the impression I was given.
Honestly, I really didn't have that impression.

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Old 04-29-2012, 01:41 PM   #302
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Default Re: The Official 'Hulk in Avengers' thread. - Part 8

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How do you know that? Thor bled from the mouth early on in the fight. Hulk seemed unfazed, even when hit with the hammer. Without his hammer it's clear Thor was physically outmatched. Right up to the point where the fighter jet started firing at Hulk, Thor was being owned.

One can speculate and say the circumstances would have been different in an open environment, but they were not. So again, extend the fight by another minute, Thor without his hammer, what do you think will be the outcome of this fight?
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I can't really speak to what Whedon intended but I know the characters very well and their power levels. It was hinted in interviews that there wasn't supposed to be a clear victor in that fight. Besides that I feel Thor underestimated him initially and Hulk was being the aggressor. A bloody nose or whatever isn't that big of a deal. Thor is also nigh invulnerable.

I concede though that in the movieverse, Hulk has an advantage if Thor doesn't have Mjolnir.

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Old 04-29-2012, 01:44 PM   #303
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Default Re: The Official 'Hulk in Avengers' thread. - Part 8

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I concede though that in the movieverse, Hulk has an advantage if Thor doesn't have Mjolnir.
And in the comic world (since I'm no guru), if Hulk fought Thor without the hammer, what would the result be, hypothetically speaking?

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Old 04-29-2012, 01:45 PM   #304
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Default Re: The Official 'Hulk in Avengers' thread. - Part 8

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Thor still seemed pretty fit to me, even after the major stomping he got, before the Jet attacked. The only time we ever really see Thor hurt, is when Loki stabs him in the gut. I guess no one argues, that if the fight had continued, that physically Hulk would have gained the upper hand. Because, well, that's what the Hulk is all about. Getting stronger as he gets angrier. But what we shouldn't forget, is that Thor knew that Banner was inside the Hulk and was more concerned with calming him down. That's why we get something like Thor riding on his back, trying to subdue him instead of continuously smashing Hulk's face with the hammer.

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Old 04-29-2012, 01:47 PM   #305
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Default Re: The Official 'Hulk in Avengers' thread. - Part 8

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I'd say, had he been really serious, the first thing Thor would have done is to take the fight outside.
I disagree, maybe in a later fight, but I think this time he wants to fight Hulk in a brawl, he's not used to getting outmatched physically and wants to test himself. I feel the power level of these two is on par though
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Hulk is stronger (Him generally overpowering Thor) and more durable (taking the bullets from the jet without flinching while Thor dives and takes cover, as well as surviving the fall, we don't know if Thor would have survived) but Thor has his weather manipulating, he obliterated two leviathans as well as several alien cruisers with his lightning at the same time
So their power strengths are just in different areas of expertise so to speak

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Old 04-29-2012, 01:50 PM   #306
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Default Re: The Official 'Hulk in Avengers' thread. - Part 8

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A bloody nose or whatever isn't that big of a deal. Thor is also nigh invulnerable.
I assume Thor has similar resistance to injury as other Asguardians do. Loki stabbed him in the movie. He showed obvious signs of discomfort, which one would feel after being stabbed by a knife.

If someone put a gun to his head and pulled the trigger, would that bullet penetrate through his flesh?

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Old 04-29-2012, 01:51 PM   #307
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Default Re: The Official 'Hulk in Avengers' thread. - Part 8

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I disagree, maybe in a later fight, but I think this time he wants to fight Hulk in a brawl, he's not used to getting outmatched physically and wants to test himself. I feel the power level of these two is on par though
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Hulk is stronger (Him generally overpowering Thor) and more durable (taking the bullets from the jet without flinching while Thor dives and takes cover, as well as surviving the fall, we don't know if Thor would have survived) but Thor has his weather manipulating, he obliterated two leviathans as well as several alien cruisers with his lightning at the same time
So their power strengths are just in different areas of expertise so to speak
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I'm pretty sure the Jet fire wouldn't have hurt Thor. It's just that he's not stupid enough to take chances. He hasn't been around earth long enough, he doesn't know what a Jet is packing. If someone dares to attack the Hulk, you'd assume they'd only do it if they think they can hurt him.

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Old 04-29-2012, 01:53 PM   #308
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Default Re: The Official 'Hulk in Avengers' thread. - Part 8

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Well Thor did use two hands. Even then, he was struggling.
Well sh**, when you put it like that, my nan could've done it

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Old 04-29-2012, 01:55 PM   #309
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Default Re: The Official 'Hulk in Avengers' thread. - Part 8

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I'm pretty sure the Jet fire wouldn't have hurt Thor.
But he was stabbed in the gut. So a knife can penetrate his flesh but not bullets? From a Jet?

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Old 04-29-2012, 01:55 PM   #310
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Default Re: The Official 'Hulk in Avengers' thread. - Part 8

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And in the comic world (since I'm no guru), if Hulk fought Thor without the hammer, what would the result be, hypothetically speaking?
In the comics Thor is generally Hulks equal in strength and durability even without Mjolnir. The advantage Hulk has is he can keep getting stronger. Different writers have had it go both ways at times with sometimes bad writing all together.

IMO though, with years of following them is that they are generally at a standstill with each other and one would be really hard pressed to defeat the other under normal circumstances. Thor is "overall" more powerful and I think could defeat Hulk if he truly cut loose, but in a straight up fist fight Hulk would eventually overtake him after a truly long fight. The end average result is pretty even though, to close to call.

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Thor still seemed pretty fit to me, even after the major stomping he got, before the Jet attacked. The only time we ever really see Thor hurt, is when Loki stabs him in the gut. I guess no one argues, that if the fight had continued, that physically Hulk would have gained the upper hand. Because, well, that's what the Hulk is all about. Getting stronger as he gets angrier. But what we shouldn't forget, is that Thor knew that Banner was inside the Hulk and was more concerned with calming him down. That's why we get something like Thor riding on his back, trying to subdue him instead of continuously smashing Hulk's face with the hammer.
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Yea, Thor was holding back and Hulk was not. I think Thor also underestimated him initially. Hubris makes you do that.

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Old 04-29-2012, 01:57 PM   #311
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Default Re: The Official 'Hulk in Avengers' thread. - Part 8

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Well sh**, when you put it like that, my nan could've done it
But I think you know what I was getting at. Thor was struggling to hold up Hulks fist, with two hands. He eventually managed to get out of that situation, barely. Still, it's an impressive strength feat considering Hulk was just standing there. Hulk could have used his other fist or something.

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Old 04-29-2012, 01:59 PM   #312
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Default Re: The Official 'Hulk in Avengers' thread. - Part 8

Part of the problem here is we truly don't know what Thors power set is exactly in the movieverse. Especially his raw strength and durability. We know its high but not really how high. We are left to make assumption about much of it based on the comics.

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Old 04-29-2012, 02:00 PM   #313
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Default Re: The Official 'Hulk in Avengers' thread. - Part 8

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But he was stabbed in the gut. So a knife can penetrate his flesh but not bullets? From a Jet?
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It is a knife used by Loki. It could have been made of a very hard alien material, and Loki is a guy who can lift 30-35 ton. I don't think that an ordinary knife used by an ordinary human guy would have hurt Thor.

Besides, yes Thor showed some discomfort, but then he shakes off that wound quite easily. It doesn't seem as if he's having much problems later in the film.

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Old 04-29-2012, 02:00 PM   #314
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Default Re: The Official 'Hulk in Avengers' thread. - Part 8

Do you think in this movie, that Thor without the hammer could go toe to toe with Superman? Heck, would this Hulk go toe to toe with Superman? All these hypothetical situations have to lead somewhere. I just couldn't help myself as Superman usually gets thrown into the mix.

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Old 04-29-2012, 02:04 PM   #315
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Default Re: The Official 'Hulk in Avengers' thread. - Part 8

True^

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Old 04-29-2012, 02:07 PM   #316
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Default Re: The Official 'Hulk in Avengers' thread. - Part 8

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It is a knife used by Loki. It could have been made of a very hard alien material, and Loki is a guy who can lift 30-35 ton. I don't think that an ordinary knife used by an ordinary human guy would have Thor.

Besides, yes Thor showed some discomfort, but then he shakes off that wound quite easily. It doesn't seem as if he's having much problems later in the film.
Agreed, something that's annoyed me in the comics is how wolverine can pierce anyone's (Hulk) skin with just because his claws are made of adamantium. He doesn't have enough force behind it considering what Hulks skin can take, it's like us trying to stab a tree with a steel knife, we can agree that steel is harder than wood, but we wouldn't get the knife very deep at all because we don't have enough force behind it, if Wolverine had super strength it would be a different story. It's the most used PIS in comics.

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Old 04-29-2012, 02:10 PM   #317
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Default Re: The Official 'Hulk in Avengers' thread. - Part 8

Agreed. It always annoyed me, just because Wolverine's claws are adamantium, that he can cut through almost anything, with little to no effort. If if you have indestructible metal grafted to your claws, you still need to apply the required force to cut through certain materials.

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Old 04-29-2012, 02:16 PM   #318
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Default Re: The Official 'Hulk in Avengers' thread. - Part 8

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To be honest, I'm surprised that :

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Loki was able to take the amount of physical punishment that he did from the Hulk and live. I understand Asgardians are tougher than human beings, but Loki was violently smashed into concrete, multiple times ... and lived.

Also, he took an explosion to the face after he caught the arrow from Hawkeye. No blood, no bruises either, which surprised me. The guy isn't Superman. He was tackled by Hulk, the force knocked him against a wall, managed to get up without any problems. Just surprised at the level of physical punishment he was able to endure. His endurance and durability levels seemed abnormally high.

Also, Captain America was thrown around like a rag doll by Loki. Another surprise. Never thought Loki would be as strong as Captain America but it appeared he was much stronger than him in The Avengers.
Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
Not only did he live but he wasn't even knocked out, just hurt and shocked. Still his durability was on show more than that time in the movie since he didn't even care when SHIELD agents shot at him.

You also saw how strong he is when he easily caught Cap's punch. Asgardians are very tough physically and he seems to be on their level, regardless of parenthood.


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Also, in my opinion :

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
Some people claim that the fight between Thor and Hulk resulted in a stalemate, but I disagree. I think it was clear that Thor was outmatched as the fight progressed. I think if the fight had continued for much longer I think Hulk would have done serious damage to Thor, at least that's the impression I was given.
Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
Hulk was throwing Thor around at the end but you have to look at the context. Hulk is in full rage because Loki has affected him so he's in his best shape, trying to kill. Thor is trying to calm him down and when he starts fighting he doesn't use his big powers. We saw what happens when he hits hard with Mjolnir on Cap's shield and when he uses his powers when he strikes as he killed his third leviathan (the one where Hulk helps).

I don't think Thor was very close to being really hurt. He gets a little bloodied but just smiles. Still he of course won't win by solely playing Hulk's game.

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Old 04-29-2012, 02:23 PM   #319
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Default Re: The Official 'Hulk in Avengers' thread. - Part 8

So replace Hulk with Superman. In the same environment, who wins?

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Old 04-29-2012, 02:29 PM   #320
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Default Re: The Official 'Hulk in Avengers' thread. - Part 8

It's like 'The Big Bang Theory' meets Comic Book Guy from 'The Simpsons'.

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Old 04-29-2012, 02:31 PM   #321
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Default Re: The Official 'Hulk in Avengers' thread. - Part 8

The list of Thor's abilities...with Mule-near is pretty freaking insane. Of course the Hulk's feats of health and strength are just as insane. I think it's always going to be one of those issues that never gets answered.

At least we know The Flash would beat Superman in a footrace for certain.

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Old 04-29-2012, 02:40 PM   #322
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Default Re: The Official 'Hulk in Avengers' thread. - Part 8

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So replace Hulk with Superman. In the same environment, who wins?
Depends on the writing. I put them in the same category, power wise, but Supes has been written ridiculously overpowered at times. Thor has too lately at times as well.

It also depends on how "magic" affects superman. If it was like in some comics then Supes would have the same trouble with Thor that he has with Shazam, without the "Batson" weakness to exploit. Supes would be in trouble.

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Old 04-29-2012, 02:40 PM   #323
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Default Re: The Official 'Hulk in Avengers' thread. - Part 8

Comic guru's, answer me this. If Superman wanted to rip Loki, limb from limb, could he do it? If he wanted to pull his head off, could he do it? I know he doesn't use his full power unless it's against extremely dangerous opponents, it's just a hypothetical question.

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Old 04-29-2012, 02:43 PM   #324
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Default Re: The Official 'Hulk in Avengers' thread. - Part 8

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Depends on the writing. I put them in the same category, power wise, but Supes has been written ridiculously overpowered at times.
So Thor is as strong as Superman?

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Old 04-29-2012, 02:48 PM   #325
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Default Re: The Official 'Hulk in Avengers' thread. - Part 8

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Not at all. Zeus can hang with Odin but i'm not sure either can "negate" the others powers, just have comparable abilities themselves.
I kind if think of it like Odin created a lock for Thor's Hammer and Hera created a lock pick. Negate was a bad word. Bypass makes more since.

I'm so used to looking at animes. They love to explain things like this out in detail. Think about Naruto. All of the Kages (leaders of the major villages) have developed difference seals to imprison the tailed beast inside there host (Naruto, Gaara, ect...). No one other then the creators of the seals and those they taught how to open the seals can do anything to them. Madara Uchiha figured out a way to bypass the seal in order to get the tailed beast. He uses rinnegan to summon the Demonic Statue of the Outer Path which as the ability removes soul and bypass the way the seals operate.

So in my mind Hera's enchantment shielded Ares' identity from Mjölnir and Mjölnir allowed Ares posses Thor to left it. Her powers allowed for a bypass of the requirement of the hammer.

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