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Old 06-03-2012, 12:24 AM   #101
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Default Re: The Official Superman Thread - Part 4

Because 616 Cap is the paragon of superheroism.

Ult Cap is a home wrecking, gun-toting, illegitimate-child-having douche.

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Old 06-03-2012, 12:46 AM   #102
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Default Re: The Official Superman Thread - Part 4

So? They are two different characters symbolic of two different things. That doesn't make Ultimate Cap any less great of a character.

616 Cap has used guns in many issues as well, BTW.

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Old 06-03-2012, 12:48 AM   #103
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Default Re: The Official Superman Thread - Part 4

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Because 616 Cap is the paragon of superheroism.

Ult Cap is a home wrecking, gun-toting, illegitimate-child-having douche.
Oh yeah, Cap was definitely the one that ruined the Pyms' marriage.

If not for him, they would've been a perfect couple. Minus a few teeth for Janet.

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Old 06-03-2012, 12:51 AM   #104
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Default Re: The Official Superman Thread - Part 4

Yeah, giving Ult Hank the smack down was like the only good thing Ult Cap did.

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Old 06-03-2012, 01:07 AM   #105
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Default Re: The Official Superman Thread - Part 4

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So? They are two different characters symbolic of two different things. That doesn't make Ultimate Cap any less great of a character.

616 Cap has used guns in many issues as well, BTW.
Since Cap is basically one huge walking symbol, even an alternate universe's version of him need to live up to that symbol. He's the Marvel Universe's Superman, and he needs to act like it. Whether it's 616 Cap or Ultimate Cap.

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Old 06-03-2012, 01:28 AM   #106
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Default Re: The Official Superman Thread - Part 4

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Since Cap is basically one huge walking symbol, even an alternate universe's version of him need to live up to that symbol. He's the Marvel Universe's Superman, and he needs to act like it. Whether it's 616 Cap or Ultimate Cap.
Um no, because then he would've just been a tired rehash of 616 Cap.

Instead, Millar actually did the smart and creative thing of turning the whole concept on its ears, and gave us a Cap that - rather than being the perfect little propaganda piece for what America thinks of itself - is instead a reflexion of how the world views America.

Even if you don't agree that America is a brutish and out of touch meathead, it's still a very intriguing aspect to consider whether or not the rest of the world views us like that, and why.

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Old 06-03-2012, 01:54 AM   #107
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Default Re: The Official Superman Thread - Part 4

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Um no, because then he would've just been a tired rehash of 616 Cap.

Instead, Millar actually did the smart and creative thing of turning the whole concept on its ears, and gave us a Cap that - rather than being the perfect little propaganda piece for what America thinks of itself - is instead a reflexion of how the world views America.

Even if you don't agree that America is a brutish and out of touch meathead, it's still a very intriguing aspect to consider whether or not the rest of the world views us like that, and why.
I can see that perspective. I just don't know if I can believe that Millar did it on purpose, since he makes every character he writes seem completely unlikable to me. But Millar is Scottish, so maybe he was actually trying to make some statement as an outside observer.

I think it is important to show how the rest of the world would react to a Captain America. The idea of a nationalized superhero like that is incredibly vain, and America certainly has a reputation of that level of narcissism. But he could've done it in a way that doesn't make me actively hate Captain America.

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Old 06-03-2012, 05:52 AM   #108
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Default Re: The Official Superman Thread - Part 4

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I can see that perspective. I just don't know if I can believe that Millar did it on purpose, since he makes every character he writes seem completely unlikable to me. But Millar is Scottish, so maybe he was actually trying to make some statement as an outside observer.
Now that part is true. Millar only has like six character personalities he writes. When he writes a team, it really shows.

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Old 06-03-2012, 07:09 AM   #109
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Default Re: The Official Superman Thread - Part 4

Writers from the UK seem to be overflowing with pretty left-leaning political sentiment, though. I don't think the idea of satirizing the US as a jingoistic thug is quite as intelligent or revolutionary to them as Scarecrow's making it sound.

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Old 06-03-2012, 10:34 AM   #110
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Default Re: The Official Superman Thread - Part 4

To them it isn't, to us - and especially with Cap involved - it is.

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Old 06-03-2012, 11:09 AM   #111
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Default Re: The Official Superman Thread - Part 4

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I can see that perspective. I just don't know if I can believe that Millar did it on purpose, since he makes every character he writes seem completely unlikable to me. But Millar is Scottish, so maybe he was actually trying to make some statement as an outside observer.

I think it is important to show how the rest of the world would react to a Captain America. The idea of a nationalized superhero like that is incredibly vain, and America certainly has a reputation of that level of narcissism. But he could've done it in a way that doesn't make me actively hate Captain America.
1. You can never expect understated from Mark Millar.

2. I kind of think how overdone it is makes it even more interesting because it transcends the character into the realm of satirical farce. Which - on top of being rather hilarious at certain points - raises even more sociopolitical questions. Is the world's perception of the US as laughably inaccurate and over the top as Ult Cap is as a character? Or is there some sad truth in the joke that the character becomes? Is it merely meant to poke harmless fun at the US, or is there a deeper meaning and resentment behind it?

I'm sure Millar wasn't intelligent enough to consider any of that inherent subtext in the character, but much like a thousand monkeys locked in a room full of typewriters, I think the man legitimately and accidentally spit out a bit of greatness with Ult Cap.

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Old 06-03-2012, 11:22 AM   #112
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Default Re: The Official Superman Thread - Part 4

I fully believe Millar's intelligent enough to have come up with everything Ultimate Cap represents. It fits right in with the type of cynicism I get from a lot of his work. Ask him to tell us a story about why the 616 Cap or Superman is great and he'd falter or provide something really basic and amateurish; but something with vague political overtones in a form tailor-made to appeal to adolescents who just want to see violence for violence's sake? He's kind of a master at that.

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Old 06-03-2012, 11:27 AM   #113
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Default Re: The Official Superman Thread - Part 4

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I fully believe Millar's intelligent enough to have come up with everything Ultimate Cap represents. It fits right in with the type of cynicism I get from a lot of his work.
This.

Plus, we need to remember that this was before Millar became a hack and a sad joke on what he once was.

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Old 06-03-2012, 11:28 AM   #114
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Default Re: The Official Superman Thread - Part 4

The Michael Bay of comic books.

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Old 06-03-2012, 11:44 AM   #115
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Default Re: The Official Superman Thread - Part 4

I feel like he's a modern day Frank Miller, except he was never as good.

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Old 06-03-2012, 12:09 PM   #116
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Default Re: The Official Superman Thread - Part 4

He co-wrote some good Flash comics with Grant Morrison. Not sure what the split was on the work between them. I hear his Authority stuff is good, too.

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Old 06-03-2012, 12:10 PM   #117
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Default Re: The Official Superman Thread - Part 4

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I fully believe Millar's intelligent enough to have come up with everything Ultimate Cap represents. It fits right in with the type of cynicism I get from a lot of his work. Ask him to tell us a story about why the 616 Cap or Superman is great and he'd falter or provide something really basic and amateurish; but something with vague political overtones in a form tailor-made to appeal to adolescents who just want to see violence for violence's sake? He's kind of a master at that.
Except that not a single one of the other Ultimates cast members have any level of the subtext that Cap has. Instead, they're all just bombastic charactures. He could've done very similar things with Tony and Thor but wasn't able to grasp them nearly as well.

Ult Cap's brilliance was luck on Millar's part. I'm sure he planned for him to be a political allegory and all of that, but it was luck that it turned out just as well - and in some ways, tasteful - as it did.

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Old 06-03-2012, 12:12 PM   #118
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Default Re: The Official Superman Thread - Part 4

Wow, I've never heard anyone call Ultimate Cap "tasteful" before.

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Old 06-03-2012, 12:13 PM   #119
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Default Re: The Official Superman Thread - Part 4

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He co-wrote some good Flash comics with Grant Morrison. Not sure what the split was on the work between them. I hear his Authority stuff is good, too.
His Authority was my favorite run on the Book.

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Old 06-03-2012, 12:15 PM   #120
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Default Re: The Official Superman Thread - Part 4

Sorry, I missed the "as" in your post earlier. I thought you said Millar was never good, period.

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Old 06-03-2012, 12:16 PM   #121
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Default Re: The Official Superman Thread - Part 4

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Except that not a single one of the other Ultimates cast members have any level of the subtext that Cap has. Instead, they're all just bombastic charactures. He could've done very similar things with Tony and Thor but wasn't able to grasp them nearly as well.

Ult Cap's brilliance was luck on Millar's part. I'm sure he planned for him to be a political allegory and all of that, but it was luck that it turned out just as well - and in some ways, tasteful - as it did.
I got the feeling that he left the rest of the characters alone so that Ultimates would have some semblance of an Avengers book to try to draw in their fans. I'm sure he (and Marvel) had some fear that if he drastically changed all of the characters it might alienate his target audience.

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Old 06-03-2012, 12:28 PM   #122
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Default Re: The Official Superman Thread - Part 4

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Sorry, I missed the "as" in your post earlier. I thought you said Millar was never good, period.
Ahh. No, what I meant by that post was that his early work was great, but he eventually became a parody of what had made him successful.

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Old 06-03-2012, 01:24 PM   #123
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Default Re: The Official Superman Thread - Part 4

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Yeah, giving Ult Hank the smack down was like the only good thing Ult Cap did.
Damn straight.

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Old 06-03-2012, 02:36 PM   #124
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Default Re: The Official Superman Thread - Part 4

oopsie. sorry to get off topic about ult. Cap, but cause Anubis brought up Kingdom come I had to read this again the other day..

Supes is/ always will be just the man!!
carry on.

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Old 06-03-2012, 04:51 PM   #125
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Default Re: The Official Superman Thread - Part 4

I've seen that the new DC Animated film "Superman vs. the Elite" is based on that story. It sounds really good. Is the story just one issue?

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