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Old 05-10-2012, 08:29 PM   #251
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Default Re: The Captain America/Chris Evans Thread - Part 2

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IM's simplistic arc is that he changes the perception SHIELD has of him.
Aaaand I think we can leave it at that.

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Old 05-10-2012, 08:31 PM   #252
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Default Re: The Captain America/Chris Evans Thread - Part 2

I know the comics he was "suspended" in animations for like 10-20 years...I think it was more dramatic that in the movie universe he was "suspended" in animation for atleast 70 years..think the point was well better understood since the world really was a lot more different then it was during the WWII era..and yes to bad there is no deleted scene where fury tells Cap about how Howard Starks son running around in an armored suit haha

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Old 05-10-2012, 08:45 PM   #253
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Default Re: The Captain America/Chris Evans Thread - Part 2

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Would you have preferred "I smashed his little red face in with my striped shield of justice and then pulverized him with my star spangled fists!!1!" :j
If you read this in the Tick's voice it's pretty awesome.

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Old 05-10-2012, 09:13 PM   #254
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Totally. lol

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Old 05-10-2012, 11:02 PM   #255
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Default Re: The Captain America/Chris Evans Thread - Part 2

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Personally, I loved his "we disagreed" line.
Yeah, I loved that line, because it was pretty much the understatement of a lifetime - which was the point of the quip.

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Old 05-10-2012, 11:03 PM   #256
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Default Re: The Captain America/Chris Evans Thread - Part 2

On the topic of the disagreed line, I mostly like it because it implies that once you disagree with Cap you're going to get your ass handed to you lol.

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Old 05-10-2012, 11:25 PM   #257
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Default Re: The Captain America/Chris Evans Thread - Part 2

Definitely a good quote..

Evans was awesome as Cap. Period.

I thought the Cap/Stark interactions were great. Evans built on his great performance from TFA and I'm sure he'll build on this one and take his character to another level in the next CA movie.

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Old 05-11-2012, 02:41 AM   #258
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Default Re: The Captain America/Chris Evans Thread - Part 2

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I'm so glad I can thoroughly enjoy movies without the need to dissect every line of dialogue. Lord all mighty.
Same here

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To me, that was a good thing...they had been minutes before standing nose to nose preparing to battle each other (and he knew that Cap was serious when he said he would fight Tony in his suit)...but now Cap was following his orders without hesitation because Cap knew Tony knew more about what they were trying to achieve at that moment than he did.
Bingo, even Captain America can't call the shots ALL the time.

That would be like if the Avengers getting lost in Asgard, I'm pretty sure Thor would do most of the leading since he's far more familiar with the realm.

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Old 05-11-2012, 02:50 AM   #259
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Default Re: The Captain America/Chris Evans Thread - Part 2

A good leader knows how and when to defer to his teammates.

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Old 05-11-2012, 02:57 AM   #260
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Default Re: The Captain America/Chris Evans Thread - Part 2

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A good leader knows how and when to defer to his teammates.
Exactly, every good leader knows when to follow.

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Old 05-11-2012, 04:10 AM   #261
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Default Re: The Captain America/Chris Evans Thread - Part 2

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I really didn't see her being rude to him...to me she was just being the reserved BW that we have seen before.
Like I said, a bit rude. To be honest with you, it stuck with me because in no other scene before that one had I seen a behavior like that from her. I may be wrong but she was even being a bit friendlier toward Bruce.

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To me, it didn't really SHOW Thor gaining respect for him, but rather it's implied it because he took his massive blow and stood up to look him in the eye.
Fair enough. But no leadership earning points there.

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To me, that was a good thing...they had been minutes before standing nose to nose preparing to battle each other (and he knew that Cap was serious when he said he would fight Tony in his suit)...but now Cap was following his orders without hesitation because Cap knew Tony knew more about what they were trying to achieve at that moment than he did.
Well yes, it was a good thing. And I'm glad it was played out that way. This isn't really an argument against Cap having earned the leadership. More like an observation.

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There really didn't need to be a scene between Hawkeye and Cap before now. It was established that Clint worked closely with Fury and knew a lot about SHIELD's going ons, he had to have read up on Cap, and as such respected him without having actually talked to him.
At this point I'd like to say that I didn't need every character to be individually persuaded in some way by Cap in order to accept him as a leader. But since Hafizbat (sp?) tried to point out how each character individually came to see Cap as a leader, I made that argument. So, what hafizbat said about Hawk doesn't really make me see how Cap earned the position personally from the archer.

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As I said earlier...I feel that Cap earned Tony's respect earlier when he (1) stood up to him and (2) put aside his own feelings to follow Tony's directions when it was needed. So when the big battle began in New York, Tony knew that it was time to turn the reigns over to a seasoned experienced soldier.

You have to remember...Tony says earlier in the movie about his dad talking all the time about Cap. Now he was being condescending and derisive to him at the time...but Tony acts that way towards everyone.....but you have to know that some of the talk his dad did about Caps bravery, honesty, leadership, etc had to stay with him.
That is a good argument and I can see that.

I think my main problem originates from fan expectations. When one fan asks another about one of Cap's main traits as part of the Avengers, and that is leadership, it really draws attention to that trait.

In other, simpler words, at no point in the movie did I feel even a subtle subplot of Cap slowly earning the position of leadership among the team. However, exactly because there was no such subplot, there was no expectation from me. So, I didn't mind that he didn't become the leader, nor did I smile when I realized he actually became that... because it jsut wasn't there. It was only when someone here asked "Did Cap earn the position?" that I thought about this and in no way do I think he did. But it's not some artistic fault or sloppy omission, I think they just didn't touch upon that. Which is good, because it's a great element to explore in A2!

PS: Ironically, now that I remember it, there was a moment where Cap earns leadership points, but not among the team. It was with the 2 cops, when he orders them, they question his orders, he kicks some Chitauri butt and they immediately listen to him. I understand that you and others saw subtler ways of him earning the right to lead, but to me they were leadership moments, not earning points, that's all.


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Old 05-11-2012, 08:37 AM   #262
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Default Re: The Captain America/Chris Evans Thread - Part 2

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Like I said, a bit rude. To be honest with you, it stuck with me because in no other scene before that one had I seen a behavior like that from her. I may be wrong but she was even being a bit friendlier toward Bruce.
I didn't see Natasha being rude to the Captain, it was more like she was annoyed by Coulson's fanboy reaction to S.H.I.E.L.D discovering Rogers in the arctic. If you read "Fury's Big Week" Coulson reaction to the discovery of Cap is pretty fanboyish and not professional for a an agent.

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Old 05-11-2012, 08:42 AM   #263
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Default Re: The Captain America/Chris Evans Thread - Part 2

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I didn't see Natasha being rude to the Captain, it was more like she was annoyed by Coulson's fanboy reaction to S.H.I.E.L.D discovering Rogers in the arctic. If you read "Fury's Big Week" Coulson reaction to the discovery of Cap is pretty fanboyish and not professional for a an agent.
I understand, but I'm going strictly by what the movie gave to me. As I'm not seeing this movie again I can't really iterate specifics for her reaction, but it was the first thing that I noticed about her. It was confirmed the second time I watched it.

However, I'm sure she didn't think ill of Cap or anything. Just that she was, at the very least, ultra typical towards him.

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Old 05-11-2012, 11:46 AM   #264
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Default Re: The Captain America/Chris Evans Thread - Part 2


I like that Rogers is the second to last shot we see (before Stark and Pepper in Avengers Tower) and he looks happy as if to say he's found his place in the modern world.

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Old 05-11-2012, 11:46 AM   #265
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There's no time to spend re-establishing some of Tony's more selfish qualities. They do it in the form of the conversation about Cap having read his file, btw which is coming from the same source who previously determined he wasn't fit for the Avengers.
So they can't "show" it, either? Weave it into his actions.

I don't buy that there's "no time" to set up such a key element. If it was a well handled arc, the film would have made time to establish these elements. Having Tony joke about people, giving them nicknames, and being reckless...doesn't a well handled established selfish character make.

And again, basing it on what the report at the end of Iron Man 2 said doesn't work well, because, again, it doesn't jive with what actually happens in the previous two films. That, Natasha's assessment of Stark, is a somewhat flawed element of the MCU. Its just "saying" a character is something, but there's no real basis for it. It's not well conceived.

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BTW, this idea that we can't draw from the IM films is nonsense. Those are essential prequels to this film. They're important to the buildup much like you see in other franchises.
Show me where he's being consistently selfish in the first two movies, other than his initial character potrayal. Not "having fun". Not "being reckless" and "taking things lightly". Selfish.

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IM's simplistic arc is that he changes the perception SHIELD has of him.
That is indeed simplistic. Like I said, it's a teen movie's level of character potrayal. But it's not really a quality character arc, or even a character arc. That's just the perception Cap and SHIELD have of him changing based on one of Iron Man's actions at the end of the movie. A perception which, if they paid any attention at all to what Iron Man has done, they should not have had in the first place. It's an incredibly thin "conflict" to bring to the film.

As far as Cap developing into a leader goes...Cap never really "developed" into a leader even in CAPTAIN AMERICA. He just suddenly was one already. It was kind of a foregone conclusion, because it was expected. There was no subtle arc there either. There was a key scene where he suddenly decided to lead, and became a leader.

Does Cap prove himself a good leader for the team in AVENGERS? More or less, he's certainly displaying the traits of one. Does he "earn" it? More or less. Is it a particularly well handled aspect of the film? Not really. There's no real development of it. Stuff just happens that shows its already there, but his character doesn't change in any interesting way, nor does the team's perception of him as a whole really change.

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Old 05-11-2012, 11:50 AM   #266
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Default Re: The Captain America/Chris Evans Thread - Part 2

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Show me where he's being consistently selfish in the first two movies
Umm, like, just about the entirety of them?

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Old 05-11-2012, 11:53 AM   #267
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Where?

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Old 05-11-2012, 11:59 AM   #268
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That is indeed simplistic. Like I said, it's a teen movie's level of character potrayal.
To you.

You have extremely high standards in these matters. Considering the movie we got, the amount of characters, and pacing issues it had to deal with I felt they handled it fine.

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Old 05-11-2012, 11:59 AM   #269
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Default Re: The Captain America/Chris Evans Thread - Part 2

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Where?
I just told you...

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Old 05-11-2012, 12:10 PM   #270
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To you.
No...it's...the type of development that a lot of simpler movies, teen comedies, etc, have.

It's not really an opinion I have, it's an inherent similarity.

"I don't like you because I can't be bothered to learn about you".
"I will prove you wrong"
"I like you well enough to work together now".

It's thin. It's not subtle.

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You have extremely high standards in these matters. Considering the movie we got, the amount of characters, and pacing issues it had to deal with I felt they handled it fine
Yeah, I don't really have high standards or expectations. I'm well aware of what we're likely to get. There's what I'd like to see, which is something that absolutely honors the characters and their mythos, and there's what commercialy likely. I didn't even expect character development with so many heroes to juggle, so I'm happy with a lot of the character work we got. But I will definitely not accept that there's some kind of brilliant, subtle character work going on in AVENGERS just because people say so.

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Old 05-11-2012, 12:17 PM   #271
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Default Re: The Captain America/Chris Evans Thread - Part 2

Is it mentioned at all in Avengers that it was Hulk who lead to discovery of Cap in the ice? I've only seen this once and can't re-call any dialogue that supports that.

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Old 05-11-2012, 12:17 PM   #272
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No...it's...the type of development that a lot of simpler movies, teen comedies, etc, have.

It's not really an opinion I have, it's an inherent similarity.

"I don't like you because I can't be bothered to learn about you".
"I will prove you wrong"
"I like you well enough to work together now".

It's thin. It's not subtle.



Yeah, I don't really have high standards or expectations. I'm well aware of what we're likely to get. There's what I'd like to see, which is something that absolutely honors the characters and their mythos, and there's what commercialy likely. I didn't even expect character development with so many heroes to juggle, so I'm happy with a lot of the character work we got. But I will definitely not accept that there's some kind of brilliant, subtle character work going on in AVENGERS just because people say so.
Comparing this to teen comedy? I can't take you seriously when you say stuff like that. Were you twiddling your mustache and sipping tea as you typed that out? LOL j/k

You've mentioned what this movie fails to do and refuse to include anything established in the previous solo films, which are a huge piece to this movie. The film is meant to function both as a sequel and on it's own for people who haven't seen the previous work ..... hence how someone might think the arcs are a little thin. It's impossible to cram the entire mythos into one film, that's what we got the prequel stand alones for. Again, the # of characters and pacing issues pretty much get in the way of that.

We got some simple arcs that had really great moments to them .... that's how I would deem it.


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Old 05-11-2012, 12:23 PM   #273
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Is it mentioned at all in Avengers that it was Hulk who lead to discovery of Cap in the ice? I've only seen this once and can't re-call any dialogue that supports that.
No. That scene was never used in TIH (wish it had been). Remember the SHIELD team discovered Cap at the beginning of CA:TFA when some people in the area notified them.

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Old 05-11-2012, 01:21 PM   #274
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Default Re: The Captain America/Chris Evans Thread - Part 2

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Is it mentioned at all in Avengers that it was Hulk who lead to discovery of Cap in the ice? I've only seen this once and can't re-call any dialogue that supports that.
You never saw Cap's movie?

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Old 05-11-2012, 01:52 PM   #275
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Comparing this to teen comedy? I can't take you seriously when you say stuff like that. Were you twiddling your mustache and sipping tea as you typed that out? LOL j/k
Then don't. Structurally, the type of character development/interaction in this film is similar to the way a teen comedy handles ensemble "conflict".

And I shaved my mustache last night.

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You've mentioned what this movie fails to do and refuse to include anything established in the previous solo films, which are a huge piece to this movie.
I've pointed out why I don't feel he's a selfish person and character. I have yet to see a single example from someone that isn't "But dude, he's selfish in the previous film".

Saying "It happened" doesn't show me where it happened.

I know he STARTS as a selfish character in IRON MAN, but he evolves beyond that, and is clealry not a selfish person for the most part in the latter part of both the Iron Man movies.

Huge piece? Well, if the movie relies on what another movie did, then I would still say that THIS movie's development was not well handled. Because I'm talking about THIS movie. Not how it "built" from a previous film (which it didn't do well, either).

Technically, the previous films failed to really develop him much as a character past the main development scenes of IRON MAN, but that's beside the point...

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The film is meant to function both as a sequel and on it's own for people who haven't seen the previous work ..... hence how someone might think the arcs are a little thin. It's impossible to cram the entire mythos into one film, that's what we got the prequel stand alones for. Again, the # of characters and
pacing issues pretty much get in the way of that.
I'm not asking for the entire mythos. I'm saying, if you're going to have your lead characters' arc revolve around him being selfish, and overcoming that, then you'd damn well better show him actually being selfish. They didn't, as far as I can see.

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