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Old 05-14-2012, 12:07 PM   #301
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Default Re: "Whosoever holds this hammer, if he be Hemsworthy, shall possess the power of Tho

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I stand by what I said. He was a puppet and a puppet can't stand on its own two legs never mind be badass. Its always the puppetmaster that gets the credit
I'll let you know when I care, especially considering the fact that most of King Thor's power displays happened before he got married.

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Old 05-14-2012, 12:36 PM   #302
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Default Re: "Whosoever holds this hammer, if he be Hemsworthy, shall possess the power of Tho

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Nothing about that exchange bothered me because Thor and Loki aren't gods, they are aliens. Aliens who brought death and devastation to the Earth, I might add. Even Fury referred to them as such when he was explaining that he developed WMDs based on the Tesseract because they destroyed Puente Antiguo. It was only natural for the WSC to want to see Loki punished on Earth for his crimes, just as they would for anyone who committed crimes against humanity. Thor was the arrogant one, assuming that the lives and rights of human beings are less meaningful than that of his warped, serial killer brother.


I daresay the council would have preferred a secret tribunal try and convict Loki, and then to have the military spend a few decades trying to find creative (and painful) ways to execute him. And why not? He killed thousands of innocent civilians so he deserves the same in return.
The only thing that makes a god a god is belief and worship, so Thor and Loki are gods in addition to being aliens. Also, Loki's punishment on Asgard is bound to be worse than whatever we could thing up. He's probably going to wind up in that ****ed up snake venom in the eye scenario.

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Old 05-14-2012, 12:41 PM   #303
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Default Re: "Whosoever holds this hammer, if he be Hemsworthy, shall possess the power of Tho

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jeez, your getting really snippy about this!



I'll take your word for it. I'm sure you know all about Asgardian engineering.

Well, your the one saying that he changes because the casket is in his hand. So, your explanation is that when touches frost gianty things Odin's enchantment fails? Because that makes more sense to you than a character known to change shape being chameleon-esque?

I remember that line. I'm sure tales are told of stupid idiots who attack behemoths with no plan and then get massacred. I'm sure the Asgardian kids get around the fire and laugh at such tales.

I just can't even fathom that some people just didn't get the theme of the movie that was so blatant. Selvig doesn't believe in kids stories and magic, Jane believes that science and magic are the same thing, Thor says that science and magic are the same thing 'because you're right' and we are still having this conversation. I'm an English grad, I've heard weird explanations for things in my time but this is a whole new realm of incomprehension.

I'm with you on this. When Thor explained that what seems like magic to humans is Asgardian science, that settled the matter for me. That is obviously how it is in the Marvel Cinematic Universe, which, as we know, differs from the comic books in significant ways. What seems to be magic is science in the MCU, and beings who were once believed to be gods are actually advanced aliens from another universe. That is how Marvel explained it in the film and that is how I view it.


The comics universe and the MCU are totally different constructs, with different ground rules. I don't get why that's so hard to accept.

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Old 05-14-2012, 12:42 PM   #304
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Default Re: "Whosoever holds this hammer, if he be Hemsworthy, shall possess the power of Tho

I loved the look on Hawkeye's face when he was looking at Loki at the end.

It's like he was saying "Oh man, you're gonna get it when you get home."

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Old 05-14-2012, 01:12 PM   #305
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Default Re: "Whosoever holds this hammer, if he be Hemsworthy, shall possess the power of Tho

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The only thing that makes a god a god is belief and worship, so Thor and Loki are gods in addition to being aliens. Also, Loki's punishment on Asgard is bound to be worse than whatever we could thing up. He's probably going to wind up in that ****ed up snake venom in the eye scenario.

If you truly believe that definition of godhood, then you have to accept that there are human beings who are or were actually gods because other people believed that they were and worshiped them as such. Jim Jones and a whole lot of dictators and kings might agree with you, the rest of humanity not so much.

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Old 05-14-2012, 01:26 PM   #306
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Default Re: "Whosoever holds this hammer, if he be Hemsworthy, shall possess the power of Tho

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If you truly believe that definition of godhood, then you have to accept that there are human beings who are or were actually gods because other people believed that they were and worshiped them as such. Jim Jones and a whole lot of dictators and kings might agree with you, the rest of humanity not so much.
You're too literal in your thinking. But sure, they can be gods for all I care. Godhood is meaningless. From my point of view there are no real gods at all, the only thing that makes a god is people believing in them. This is more of an argument about the truth of fiction and so on. But I would still argue that the Asgardians are gods, but not the only gods as we know the Greek gods also exist in the Marvel Universe in addition to other gods and demons.

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Old 05-14-2012, 01:45 PM   #307
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Default Re: "Whosoever holds this hammer, if he be Hemsworthy, shall possess the power of Tho

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I'm with you on this. When Thor explained that what seems like magic to humans is Asgardian science, that settled the matter for me.

Well, what he said allows for some ambiguity, but I think it can be understood more along the lines of: what humans have identified separately as "magic" and "science" are actually two ways of thinking about the same thing.

If anything, now that the more fantastical elements of the MCU are established, I expect to see more magic in the future. A Dr. Strange movie is inevitable. So, Asgardian knowledge would draw on both magic and tech. For humans, Tony Stark and Dr. Strange work in different domains, but not so for the Asgardians.

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Old 05-14-2012, 01:56 PM   #308
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Default Re: "Whosoever holds this hammer, if he be Hemsworthy, shall possess the power of Tho

To ME it's just having the capacity to understand "magic". It's the reverse idea of Gods understanding Humanity, there for the Blake link in the comics.

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Old 05-14-2012, 02:37 PM   #309
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Default Re: "Whosoever holds this hammer, if he be Hemsworthy, shall possess the power of Tho

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Originally Posted by Flemm View Post
Well, what he said allows for some ambiguity, but I think it can be understood more along the lines of: what humans have identified separately as "magic" and "science" are actually two ways of thinking about the same thing.

If anything, now that the more fantastical elements of the MCU are established, I expect to see more magic in the future. A Dr. Strange movie is inevitable. So, Asgardian knowledge would draw on both magic and tech. For humans, Tony Stark and Dr. Strange work in different domains, but not so for the Asgardians.
I'm with you on this

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Captain America - Because I can hear it.
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Old 05-14-2012, 02:48 PM   #310
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Default Re: "Whosoever holds this hammer, if he be Hemsworthy, shall possess the power of Tho

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I'm with you on this
And I second you, mate.

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Old 05-14-2012, 02:51 PM   #311
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Default Re: "Whosoever holds this hammer, if he be Hemsworthy, shall possess the power of Tho

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There ISN"T any mechanical stuff IN Destroyer. It was mentioned somewhere movie-wise that the ARMOUR is Hollow and Filled the the Odin-Force energy. Basically Odin has but to THINK to control it. Tho I personally think His Spear controls that energy or Loki wouldn't have been able to use Destroyer.
Your misunderstanding me. By "mechanism" I don't mean gears and pistons. By "mechanism" I mean "an intrinsic property designed into the device that causes it to function, according to rational principles."

The thing can be filled with Odin-energy and still be perfectly scientific, so long as that Odin-energy follows rationally understandable laws. Its not different than a computer seeming to be magical because you can't find where the gears or fire are.

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Old 05-14-2012, 02:54 PM   #312
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Default Re: "Whosoever holds this hammer, if he be Hemsworthy, shall possess the power of Tho

And really, the whole "are they gods or aliens" question, the correct answer is "yes." Is Odin an alien from another dimension? Yes. Is he the guy the Norse worshipped? Yes. Again, the two questions are not diametric, or even related at all.

( and if you try to disprove the Asgardian's godhood on the grounds that they come from another world, are fairly physical beings, and can die, you run into the problem that, none of these would actually contradict the original Norse understanding of the Aesir. . . )

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Old 05-14-2012, 03:07 PM   #313
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Default Re: "Whosoever holds this hammer, if he be Hemsworthy, shall possess the power of Tho

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And really, the whole "are they gods or aliens" question, the correct answer is "yes." Is Odin an alien from another dimension? Yes. Is he the guy the Norse worshipped? Yes. Again, the two questions are not diametric, or even related at all.

( and if you try to disprove the Asgardian's godhood on the grounds that they come from another world, are fairly physical beings, and can die, you run into the problem that, none of these would actually contradict the original Norse understanding of the Aesir. . . )
Great post. That always been my views on the subject.

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Old 05-14-2012, 03:11 PM   #314
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Default Re: "Whosoever holds this hammer, if he be Hemsworthy, shall possess the power of Tho

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And really, the whole "are they gods or aliens" question, the correct answer is "yes." Is Odin an alien from another dimension? Yes. Is he the guy the Norse worshipped? Yes. Again, the two questions are not diametric, or even related at all.

( and if you try to disprove the Asgardian's godhood on the grounds that they come from another world, are fairly physical beings, and can die, you run into the problem that, none of these would actually contradict the original Norse understanding of the Aesir. . . )
Bingo

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Spider-Man - It's the end of the world, I'M FREAKING OUT...why aren't you freaking out?
Captain America - Because I can hear it.
Spider-Man - Hear what?
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*cue Thor's grand entrance*
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Old 05-14-2012, 03:34 PM   #315
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Default Re: "Whosoever holds this hammer, if he be Hemsworthy, shall possess the power of Tho

On the same topic, I think what we saw in Thor was somewhat influenced by nervousness about whether or not Thor would fit into the movie-verse established in the IM movies, as well as concerns about how viewers would react to the mythological/otherwordly elements.

I think we are going to see a lot less nervousness about that in future Thor/Marvel movie-verse films. They've tested the waters, it works, so now they are free to open up the floodgates, so to speak.

I expect them to retain a science element (important especially for Jane Foster's involvement), but a lot of the stuff we will see in the nine worlds will be pure myth/high fantasy, I imagine.

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Old 05-14-2012, 04:01 PM   #316
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Default Re: "Whosoever holds this hammer, if he be Hemsworthy, shall possess the power of Tho

No doubt about it, Flemm. I believe the myth/fantasy aspects will be present in Taylor's more ''organic'' approach about the Realms.

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Old 05-14-2012, 04:14 PM   #317
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Default Re: "Whosoever holds this hammer, if he be Hemsworthy, shall possess the power of Tho

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On the same topic, I think what we saw in Thor was somewhat influenced by nervousness about whether or not Thor would fit into the movie-verse established in the IM movies, as well as concerns about how viewers would react to the mythological/otherwordly elements.

I think we are going to see a lot less nervousness about that in future Thor/Marvel movie-verse films. They've tested the waters, it works, so now they are free to open up the floodgates, so to speak.

I expect them to retain a science element (important especially for Jane Foster's involvement), but a lot of the stuff we will see in the nine worlds will be pure myth/high fantasy, I imagine.
Yeah, I want to see some bona-fide magic in THOR II to finally get people to shut up about this "advanced tech" nonesense.

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THE AVENGERS
Spider-Man - It's the end of the world, I'M FREAKING OUT...why aren't you freaking out?
Captain America - Because I can hear it.
Spider-Man - Hear what?
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*cue Thor's grand entrance*
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Old 05-14-2012, 04:17 PM   #318
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Default Re: "Whosoever holds this hammer, if he be Hemsworthy, shall possess the power of Tho

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Yeah, I want to see some bona-fide magic in THOR II to finally get people to shut up about this "advanced tech" nonesense.
Well, it should be really interesting, because I expect Thor will go with Jane to Asgard. So, we should see Jane exploring/getting used to the Asgardian culture, a bit like Thor recently did on earth.

I believe the whole magic/science relationship will inevitably be addressed again for that reason.

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Old 05-14-2012, 04:35 PM   #319
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Default Re: "Whosoever holds this hammer, if he be Hemsworthy, shall possess the power of Tho

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Yeah, I want to see some bona-fide magic in THOR II to finally get people to shut up about this "advanced tech" nonesense.
Yeah from the solo movie to TA I wasn't that distracted by it and Thor is my fave Avenger so I don't see the problem.

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Old 05-14-2012, 04:52 PM   #320
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Default Re: "Whosoever holds this hammer, if he be Hemsworthy, shall possess the power of Tho

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Well, it should be really interesting, because I expect Thor will go with Jane to Asgard. So, we should see Jane exploring/getting used to the Asgardian culture, a bit like Thor recently did on earth.

I believe the whole magic/science relationship will inevitably be addressed again for that reason.

Unless Jane accidentally ends up in another Realm and Thor has to go there to save her. Oy. I really hope that doesn't happen.

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Old 05-14-2012, 04:54 PM   #321
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Default Re: "Whosoever holds this hammer, if he be Hemsworthy, shall possess the power of Tho

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Nah, I prefer Thor's complete WTF introduction from the other members when he just comes out of nowhere and steals Loki without even a word.
Me too. I fist pumped. Not even an "introduction". Just lands on top of the quinjet. Comes in, decks ironman, grabs Loki by the neck, and leaves. I loved that entrance

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Old 05-14-2012, 04:59 PM   #322
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Default Re: "Whosoever holds this hammer, if he be Hemsworthy, shall possess the power of Tho

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Nothing about that exchange bothered me because Thor and Loki aren't gods, they are aliens. Aliens who brought death and devastation to the Earth, I might add. Even Fury referred to them as such when he was explaining that he developed WMDs based on the Tesseract because they destroyed Puente Antiguo. It was only natural for the WSC to want to see Loki punished on Earth for his crimes, just as they would for anyone who committed crimes against humanity. Thor was the arrogant one, assuming that the lives and rights of human beings are less meaningful than that of his warped, serial killer brother.


I daresay the council would have preferred a secret tribunal try and convict Loki, and then to have the military spend a few decades trying to find creative (and painful) ways to execute him. And why not? He killed thousands of innocent civilians so he deserves the same in return.
I disagree with you strongly. But due to my exhaustion, and my waiting for my friend to pick me up, and my current laziness,/ I am not going to explain my difference of opinion. So, just..carry on :P

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Old 05-14-2012, 05:01 PM   #323
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Default Re: "Whosoever holds this hammer, if he be Hemsworthy, shall possess the power of Tho

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I don't believe they're gods in the MCU, but I'm fine with them being referred to as such. As for the Council wanting to keep Loki and not let Thor take him away, that's just typical political aggrandizement. In stories such as this, people in places of authority on Earth think that makes them something special, even when confronted with beings far more powerful than themselves.

I mean, granted, Loki did commit criminal acts on Earth and against human beings, but his crimes against Asgard supersede them, I'd say.

Took the words right out of my mouth. thank you for explaining what I was trying to say in a much simpler, more understandable way

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Old 05-14-2012, 05:08 PM   #324
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Default Re: "Whosoever holds this hammer, if he be Hemsworthy, shall possess the power of Tho

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But where does it say that? It doesn't.
Exactly. But here is my point. Is there anything saying that it is an enchantment? Nope. Anything saying that it is truely mechanical, and a high tech machine? Nope either. Bare with me here on what I am about to say. But

In the MCU we don't know if it was enchanted, or a high tech robot. It is not clarified. There isn't a way to be 100% sure. SO, with that being said, with the Destroyer being enchanted armor in the comics, and it is a comic book movie, I am just going to go ahead and say that the Destroyer was enchanted armor, until it is proven otherwise. Cause thats how it is in the comics, we don't know if its any different in the movies, so as far as I am concerned, since we can't be sure, I will give it the benefit of the doubt.

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Old 05-14-2012, 07:50 PM   #325
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I just took it as a moment where he is grieving to all the horrors his brother has caused.
I agree, Loki, his brother had just attempted to kill him! And having the power of Thor is a part of the issue.

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