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View Poll Results: How should the Avenger films be grouped
a trilogy 15 24.59%
a four movie set 6 9.84%
continuous (ongoing films without reboots) 40 65.57%
Voters: 61. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 05-31-2012, 01:44 PM   #76
Artistsean
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Default Re: Should Avengers be a trilogy, 4 movie set, or continuous

All you would need to keep the franchise going from the roster perspective is one or two members to stick around. If they add Ant Man and Wasp in Avegners 2 (which I think they should, once Wright has made Ant Man) then their contracts will have them signed up for 3 Avengers films. Which means that they will be signed up for Avengers 4 and 5. Then you can bring in more characters, a mythical character maybe to fill the void of Thor like Valkyrie or a Hulk type to fill the void of Hulk like She-Hulk. They can also bring in popular characters fans want to see like Scarlet Witch and Wonder Man, etc. So just to help I list some random Avengers to fill the roster.
You have Ant Man and Wasp, Valkyrie, She-Hulk, Black Panther, Wonder Man. And those actors would be signed up for Avengers 4, 5, and 6.
But Ant Man and Wasp would only be there till Avengers 5. So they leave the films and two or three more members are brought in.
Lets say that Vision, Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver are added to replace Ant Man and Wasp. And those new actors are signed up for three Avengers films too, Avengers 6, 7, and 8. (So now the roster is Valkyrie, She-Hulk, Black Panther, Wonder Man, Scarlet Witch, Vision, and Quicksilver.)
But the actors playing Valkyrie, She-Hulk, Black Panther, Wonder Man leave around 6 because their contracts are up. and the studio bring in four members to fill the void.
So lets say its Luke Cage, Swordsman, Spider-Woman, Ms. Marvel. And those actors are signed up for 3 Avengers films. Meaning there are signed for Avengers 7, 8, and 9. (Now the roster is Scarlet Witch, Quicksilver, Vision, Luke Cage, Swordsman, Spider-Woman, and Ms. Marvel.)
But Scarlet Witch, Vision, and Quicksilver are only around till 8, so they leave because their contract is up and three other actors are brought in playing other Avengers. Lets just say Bucky Cap, Namor, and Firestar are signed up for Avengers 9, 10, and 11. (my math might be breaking down). But the idea goes on and on. You can keep filling the space left by actors leaving with new Avengers without ever recasting someone. You would never have to recast Captain America because there are enough Avengers in the comics to use.

To further illustrate my idea, and to clear it up (or maybe to make it more confusing)
And again these are Avengers mostly picked at random:
Avengers 1 (2012): Captain America, Thor, Iron Man, Hawkeye, Black Widow, Hulk.
Avengers 2 (2014): Captain America, Thor, Iron Man, Hawkeye, Black Widow, Hulk, Ant Man and Wasp.
Avengers 3 (2016): Captain America, Thor, Iron Man, Hawkeye, Black Widow, Hulk, Ant Man and Wasp.
Avengers 4 (2018): Ant Man and Wasp, Valkyrie, She-Hulk, Black Panther, Wonder Man Vision.
Avengers 5 (2020): Valkyrie, She-Hulk, Black Panther, Wonder Man, Vision, Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver.
Avengers 6 (2022): Valkyrie, She-Hulk, Black Panther, Wonder Man, Vision, Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver.
Avengers 7 (2024): Scarlet Witch, Quicksilver, Luke Cage, Swordsman, Spider-Woman, and Ms. Marvel.
Avengers 8 (2026): Luke Cage, Swordsman, Spider-Woman, and Ms. Marvel, Namor, and Bucky Cap.
Avengers 9 (2028): Luke Cage, Swordsman, Spider-Woman, and Ms. Marvel, Namor, and Bucky Cap.
Avengers 10 (2030): Namor, Bucky Cap, Thunderstrike, Firestar, Falcon, Photon, and Hercules.
Avengers 11 (2032): Thunderstrike, Firestar, Falcon, Photon, Hercules, War Machine, Tigra, Moondragon.
Avengers 12 (2034): Thunderstrike, Firestar, Falcon, Photon, Hercules, War Machine, Tigra, Moondragon.
Avengers 13 (2038): War Machine, Tigra, Moondragon, 3D Man (Triathlon), Black Knight, Mokcingbird.
Avengers 14 (2040): 3D Man, Black Knight, Mockingbird, Goliath (Bill Foster), Mantis, Beta Ray Bill

Of coarse the plots would have to be king. You can't just make the show go on and on with terrible stories. You don't want it to turn into some B movie and take superhero movies back in time to the 80s and 90s where they aren't that good. But the Avengers have enough enemies and stories from the comics that they should never run low on inspiration. We could see all sorts of fan favorite bad guys from the comics in the movies. So as long as the plots are well done like Avengers 1, Iron Man 1, Captain America 1, and Thor 1, you can still keep the franchise going for years. I just set it for every 2 years since its rumored that Avengers 2 will be in 2014, so if they kept it going it could go past 2030 even.


Last edited by Artistsean; 05-31-2012 at 02:02 PM.
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Old 06-01-2012, 01:20 AM   #77
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Default Re: Should Avengers be a trilogy, 4 movie set, or continuous

I have been thinking about this for a while now, and I think that the Avengers should be Five films... With the Fifth being the end to this Marvel Cinematic Universe!!

No wait before you jump down my throat!! Marvel talking about recasting Downey as Tony Bond style and stuff which I feel is wack..

I think the Avengers 2 and 3 should still have this team of Avengers or at least keep the core of the team together, with the 4th film really having a whole new team. The 5th film will still have the new team but when things escalate ALL the Avengers return to fight... End the Universe...

What Marvel should do after, take 5 year break, then start building the Marvel Cinematic Universe based on story arcs for example Avengers Dissambled and House of M could be the story arc for the next 10 years, with team up films as well as solo films in between,

Plus Marvel will be getting Fantastic Four, Spider-Man and X-Men rights back sometime in the future, and instead of Forcing them in this continuity universe, they leave them out. And when they start the first Cinematic Story Arc, they build a world with everybody already In it.

Then we can have 10years House of M, 5 Year break, Civil War for next 10 years, 5 Year break, secret invasion next 10 years and so on...

Then charcaters are recast for each different story arc, so essentially it's not like the actor is replacing another actor in the role it's more like, this dude is the Civil War Spidey's, that Dude is the House of M Spidey!! Of course you don't have to recast all the roles, you could for instances have Iron Man come from the future played by Downey Jr now a 70year old man to whoever is playing Tony in the present!

Or whatever, I just think the Movies aren't the comics to keep it continuous hasn't that great because people in real life become old, and I don't want to see Downey, Hemsworth, Hiddleston or whoever recast in this universe. So rather finish this universe, then start story arcs, where each actor playing a hero will be rememebered for his/her interpretation of the character in that particular arc!

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Old 06-01-2012, 05:57 AM   #78
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Default Re: Should Avengers be a trilogy, 4 movie set, or continuous

it would be a big mistake in the movieverse to have a team without the big 3 (big 4 actually) that's not the avengers for me. heck, even Bendis who proved every issue that he has no idea what the avengers are about got one thing right which was the inclusion of at least 2 of the big 3 in every incarnation of his bendisvengers.

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Old 06-01-2012, 06:34 AM   #79
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Default Re: Should Avengers be a trilogy, 4 movie set, or continuous

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it would be a big mistake in the movieverse to have a team without the big 3 (big 4 actually) that's not the avengers for me. heck, even Bendis who proved every issue that he has no idea what the avengers are about got one thing right which was the inclusion of at least 2 of the big 3 in every incarnation of his bendisvengers.
Yep.

As usual, it continues to boggle my mind that a few posters here think a recast would be unacceptable. When all kinds of films and TV shows --- including *superhero* films --- continue to prove that GA and fanboys alike accept superhero recasts and move on with their lives. Bruce Banner, Bruce Wayne, Col. James Rhodes, etc.

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Old 06-01-2012, 10:13 AM   #80
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Default Re: Should Avengers be a trilogy, 4 movie set, or continuous

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Yep.

As usual, it continues to boggle my mind that a few posters here think a recast would be unacceptable. When all kinds of films and TV shows --- including *superhero* films --- continue to prove that GA and fanboys alike accept superhero recasts and move on with their lives. Bruce Banner, Bruce Wayne, Col. James Rhodes, etc.
The standard fanboy shield against logic is their belief that THEY have insight as to how General Audiences think and feel. They apply this belief as though it some how ratifies their own prejudices and opinions.

It's shocking to me considering these are people who are fans of a medium that is constantly in a state of creative flux. Comicbook characters are regularly reinterpreted and modified by an endless parade of writers. Entire histories are completely reconned or flatout ignored in favor of what works currently.

Kind of ironic that so many are so inflexible and narrowminded in what they believe is acceptable.

However, I guess I can be accused of being guilty of the same in my belief that the Hulk should not be handled as a straight up hero. Although I don't often invoke the power of the GA to enforce my opinion.

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Old 06-01-2012, 12:02 PM   #81
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Default Re: Should Avengers be a trilogy, 4 movie set, or continuous

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Originally Posted by cherokeesam View Post
Yep.

As usual, it continues to boggle my mind that a few posters here think a recast would be unacceptable. When all kinds of films and TV shows --- including *superhero* films --- continue to prove that GA and fanboys alike accept superhero recasts and move on with their lives. Bruce Banner, Bruce Wayne, Col. James Rhodes, etc.
I don't mind when characters are recast for a different series (such as Garfield replacing Maguire in the reboot of Spider-Man). But when a sequel to a film has a new cast member portraying the same character, it ruins the illusion.

I don't think you should mention Bruce Wayne. He was recast for Batman Forever, and once again in Batman & Robin, sequels to the Tim Burton films (and look how bad those were). Then he was recast for BB, but that was a reboot, not a sequel.... so I don't really count that.

Recasting Rachel in TDK ruined it for me a little, and same for James Rhodes in Iron Man 2. I hate when characters are recast in sequels. Just my opinion.

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Old 06-01-2012, 01:27 PM   #82
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Default Re: Should Avengers be a trilogy, 4 movie set, or continuous

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I don't mind when characters are recast for a different series (such as Garfield replacing Maguire in the reboot of Spider-Man). But when a sequel to a film has a new cast member portraying the same character, it ruins the illusion.

I don't think you should mention Bruce Wayne. He was recast for Batman Forever, and once again in Batman & Robin, sequels to the Tim Burton films (and look how bad those were). Then he was recast for BB, but that was a reboot, not a sequel.... so I don't really count that.

Recasting Rachel in TDK ruined it for me a little, and same for James Rhodes in Iron Man 2. I hate when characters are recast in sequels. Just my opinion.
I'm sorry but recasts are in no way different than another srtist taking over a comic book or another writer giving a character a new twist. It is something inherent to the genre and somehow it is nice that this part of the comic reading experience is part of the cinematic universe. Because after all the MCU is just that. A cinematic version of a comic book universe with all its rules, restrictions or charms.

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Old 06-01-2012, 04:28 PM   #83
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Default Re: Should Avengers be a trilogy, 4 movie set, or continuous

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it would be a big mistake in the movieverse to have a team without the big 3 (big 4 actually) that's not the avengers for me. heck, even Bendis who proved every issue that he has no idea what the avengers are about got one thing right which was the inclusion of at least 2 of the big 3 in every incarnation of his bendisvengers.

Like I showed, the Avengers have been without the Cap/IM/Thor trio plenty of times. Heck, by issue 16 of Stan Lee's original Avengers run Iron Man and Thor had already left to do their own things. Saying that they're required is honestly just kind of wrong, since the Avengers have been the Avengers without them in the past.

That doesn't mean that I think that Cap, Thor or Iron Man should NEVER be in another Avengers after they've had their original run. In fact I even said they should come back after having been recast - and even all of this would likely only be after we've already had an Avengers 2 or 3 with the big three.

There are just other Avengers characters that I like and dynamics that I would like to see explored that can't be really done if we adhere slavishly towards the first film's roster. Honestly, the idea all three of them NEED TO BE THERE OR ITS NOT AVENGERS strikes me as just as inflexible and narrow-minded thinking as saying NO RECASTS.

As for Bendis: his Mighty Avengers only had Iron Man. His post Civil War New Avengers had NONE of the them and Dark Reign New Avengers only had Cap (and it wasn't Steve Rogers), so no his Avengers did not always have 2-3 of the big three. Far from it.

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Old 06-01-2012, 05:35 PM   #84
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Default Re: Should Avengers be a trilogy, 4 movie set, or continuous

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I'm sorry but recasts are in no way different than another srtist taking over a comic book or another writer giving a character a new twist. It is something inherent to the genre and somehow it is nice that this part of the comic reading experience is part of the cinematic universe. Because after all the MCU is just that. A cinematic version of a comic book universe with all its rules, restrictions or charms.
Well you have your opinion and I have mine. Not saying I will not accept a recast at all, but just saying it does ruin the illusion for me. That's just how I feel.

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Old 06-01-2012, 05:36 PM   #85
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Default Re: Should Avengers be a trilogy, 4 movie set, or continuous

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
All you would need to keep the franchise going from the roster perspective is one or two members to stick around. If they add Ant Man and Wasp in Avegners 2 (which I think they should, once Wright has made Ant Man) then their contracts will have them signed up for 3 Avengers films. Which means that they will be signed up for Avengers 4 and 5. Then you can bring in more characters, a mythical character maybe to fill the void of Thor like Valkyrie or a Hulk type to fill the void of Hulk like She-Hulk. They can also bring in popular characters fans want to see like Scarlet Witch and Wonder Man, etc. So just to help I list some random Avengers to fill the roster.
You have Ant Man and Wasp, Valkyrie, She-Hulk, Black Panther, Wonder Man. And those actors would be signed up for Avengers 4, 5, and 6.
But Ant Man and Wasp would only be there till Avengers 5. So they leave the films and two or three more members are brought in.
Lets say that Vision, Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver are added to replace Ant Man and Wasp. And those new actors are signed up for three Avengers films too, Avengers 6, 7, and 8. (So now the roster is Valkyrie, She-Hulk, Black Panther, Wonder Man, Scarlet Witch, Vision, and Quicksilver.)
But the actors playing Valkyrie, She-Hulk, Black Panther, Wonder Man leave around 6 because their contracts are up. and the studio bring in four members to fill the void.
So lets say its Luke Cage, Swordsman, Spider-Woman, Ms. Marvel. And those actors are signed up for 3 Avengers films. Meaning there are signed for Avengers 7, 8, and 9. (Now the roster is Scarlet Witch, Quicksilver, Vision, Luke Cage, Swordsman, Spider-Woman, and Ms. Marvel.)
But Scarlet Witch, Vision, and Quicksilver are only around till 8, so they leave because their contract is up and three other actors are brought in playing other Avengers. Lets just say Bucky Cap, Namor, and Firestar are signed up for Avengers 9, 10, and 11. (my math might be breaking down). But the idea goes on and on. You can keep filling the space left by actors leaving with new Avengers without ever recasting someone. You would never have to recast Captain America because there are enough Avengers in the comics to use.

To further illustrate my idea, and to clear it up (or maybe to make it more confusing)
And again these are Avengers mostly picked at random:
Avengers 1 (2012): Captain America, Thor, Iron Man, Hawkeye, Black Widow, Hulk.
Avengers 2 (2014): Captain America, Thor, Iron Man, Hawkeye, Black Widow, Hulk, Ant Man and Wasp.
Avengers 3 (2016): Captain America, Thor, Iron Man, Hawkeye, Black Widow, Hulk, Ant Man and Wasp.
Avengers 4 (2018): Ant Man and Wasp, Valkyrie, She-Hulk, Black Panther, Wonder Man Vision.
Avengers 5 (2020): Valkyrie, She-Hulk, Black Panther, Wonder Man, Vision, Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver.
Avengers 6 (2022): Valkyrie, She-Hulk, Black Panther, Wonder Man, Vision, Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver.
Avengers 7 (2024): Scarlet Witch, Quicksilver, Luke Cage, Swordsman, Spider-Woman, and Ms. Marvel.
Avengers 8 (2026): Luke Cage, Swordsman, Spider-Woman, and Ms. Marvel, Namor, and Bucky Cap.
Avengers 9 (2028): Luke Cage, Swordsman, Spider-Woman, and Ms. Marvel, Namor, and Bucky Cap.
Avengers 10 (2030): Namor, Bucky Cap, Thunderstrike, Firestar, Falcon, Photon, and Hercules.
Avengers 11 (2032): Thunderstrike, Firestar, Falcon, Photon, Hercules, War Machine, Tigra, Moondragon.
Avengers 12 (2034): Thunderstrike, Firestar, Falcon, Photon, Hercules, War Machine, Tigra, Moondragon.
Avengers 13 (2038): War Machine, Tigra, Moondragon, 3D Man (Triathlon), Black Knight, Mokcingbird.
Avengers 14 (2040): 3D Man, Black Knight, Mockingbird, Goliath (Bill Foster), Mantis, Beta Ray Bill

Of coarse the plots would have to be king. You can't just make the show go on and on with terrible stories. You don't want it to turn into some B movie and take superhero movies back in time to the 80s and 90s where they aren't that good. But the Avengers have enough enemies and stories from the comics that they should never run low on inspiration. We could see all sorts of fan favorite bad guys from the comics in the movies. So as long as the plots are well done like Avengers 1, Iron Man 1, Captain America 1, and Thor 1, you can still keep the franchise going for years. I just set it for every 2 years since its rumored that Avengers 2 will be in 2014, so if they kept it going it could go past 2030 even.


Of coarse the characters chosen would be well thought out when picked and not random like I did. So maybe Ms. Marvel is picked because of the Kree being used. And the characters brought in would be well written too and some may even start out in their own solo films like the big three did. But I think saying that you MUST include Captain America, Iron Man, and Thor, or there should be no Avengers limits the films possibilities greatly. That eliminates any chance for more interesting characters to pass through. That means in a team movie (which are hard to make in the first place) you have to have three characters. Plus I heard that Evans was never really that interested in playing Captain America, but was told by RDJ that it was a good career move. So he is playing all he is signed up for but once his contract is up I am sure he will leave. Which probably means that after he does 3 Cap movies and 3 Avengers movies he will leave the role of Cap behind just like RDJ is leaving after Iron Man 3 and probably after Avengers 3 (I imagine he is signed up for 3 Avengers films too, but maybe he isn't.)
Forcing recasting on a character can be a bad idea too, but if its set up right it can work like with James Bond without rebooting. Because movies aren't like comics, the reader will let more things slide in a comic since they already know its not reality but a movie is an imitation of reality so any alteration to reality will be quickly noticed, including recasting. So to force Captain America in the Avengers, even if it means recasting is, in my opinion, a bad idea. Sure if the Marvel movie universe sets up that recasting is going to happen to each and every character including Iron Man, Thor, and Captain America, then thats OK but the characters should only be in the story if its suits the story. The plot needs to come first.
I am not saying I am apposed to recasting, or keeping a character in the movies as long as they can. If the plot calls for it and the recasts have already been set up I could see Captain America returning to the Avengers in later sequels.
But to say that the Marvel movie universe must end at Avengers 3 or 5 or 6 limits what can be done. You miss out on stuff that could eventually be included. Maybe some day we can have Wonder Man in the Avengers. Maybe some day Hank Pym and the Avengers can fight Ultron. Maybe eventually She Hulk can join the team, or maybe the Avengers can deal with Hank Pym's breakdown and multiple personalities. Maybe Captain America can tell the Avengers he is retiring and giving the mantel of Captain America to his buddy Bucky Barnes, the Winter Soldier. Maybe Marvel will do the AKA show and have Ms. Marvel cameo (she could then be in the Avengers movie and the TV show) and then also bring Luke Cage from the show to the movies and have him join the Avengers. If they expand the movie universe into the TV show and make it one big universe that could keep things going and fresh. If the Avengers films are limited to 3 that means Avengers 1 was about Loki and his alien invasion started by Thanos. And Avengers 2 or 3, or both, will have to deal with Thanos, meaning you miss out on what other stories could be done. Meaning that Avengers will never face Kang the Conquerer, and meaning that Hercules or the Vision will never join the team.

It is my opinion that the best thing to do would be to stagger the roster rotation and keep the films going as long as the plots are great enough. Set up recasting with Iron Man and eventually the rest but don't make it mandatory that the big three must be in every Avengers film. And the movies should not end just because they aren't in them. I want to see the Avengers face Ultron, Kang, Thanos, a savage Hulk, an anti Avengers team like the Masters of Evil or the Dark Avengers, and so on. I don't want it to be limited. It took this long to get a movie like the Avengers, why end it's potential?


Last edited by Artistsean; 06-01-2012 at 05:42 PM.
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Old 06-01-2012, 07:45 PM   #86
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Default Re: Should Avengers be a trilogy, 4 movie set, or continuous

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Like I showed, the Avengers have been without the Cap/IM/Thor trio plenty of times. Heck, by issue 16 of Stan Lee's original Avengers run Iron Man and Thor had already left to do their own things. Saying that they're required is honestly just kind of wrong, since the Avengers have been the Avengers without them in the past.

That doesn't mean that I think that Cap, Thor or Iron Man should NEVER be in another Avengers after they've had their original run. In fact I even said they should come back after having been recast - and even all of this would likely only be after we've already had an Avengers 2 or 3 with the big three.

There are just other Avengers characters that I like and dynamics that I would like to see explored that can't be really done if we adhere slavishly towards the first film's roster. Honestly, the idea all three of them NEED TO BE THERE OR ITS NOT AVENGERS strikes me as just as inflexible and narrow-minded thinking as saying NO RECASTS.

As for Bendis: his Mighty Avengers only had Iron Man. His post Civil War New Avengers had NONE of the them and Dark Reign New Avengers only had Cap (and it wasn't Steve Rogers), so no his Avengers did not always have 2-3 of the big three. Far from it.

No offense, but I don't think you understand much about the Avengers in the comics.

Let me begin by addressing your last paragraph: the reason that "The Big Three" don't appear in the Bendisvengers post-Civil War is because the team was famously split up. And killed, in some cases. The Mighty Avengers became the core "guvmint" group under Iron Man and Carol Danvers' leadership, but Cap's group went on the run as an underground team called the New Avengers. And, of course, Cap got assassinated very early on in the story. You *do* realize that the Avengers have factionalized into MANY subgroups with their own comic book titles since 2005-2007's Civil War, don't you.....?


And back to the point of appearances of the Big Three in Avengers over the decades since 1963....I'll refer you to an excellent series of infographics some dude with a LOT of time on his hands put together, showing ALL the appearances of EVERY possible Avenger from 1963 to 2011, and every chart shows Cap absolutely DOMINATING the number of appearances, followed pretty closely by Iron Man, Thor, Wasp, Scarlet Witch, Vision, and Hank Pym (in various costumes/guises).

http://blog.blprnt.com/blog/blprnt/a...ualized-part-1

And again, you're confusing factionalism with "lack" of appearances in the Avengers proper....back in the 80s, the team spun off another popular title and moved a branch out to Cali in West Coast Avengers, which included Iron Man, Hawkeye, Hank Pym and other core Avengers. But you're mistakenly discounting them as Avengers, and that's not even remotely accurate.....they were still very much Avengers, just in L.A. instead of N.Y.

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Old 06-01-2012, 08:00 PM   #87
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Default Re: Should Avengers be a trilogy, 4 movie set, or continuous

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No offense, but I don't think you understand much about the Avengers in the comics.

Let me begin by addressing your last paragraph: the reason that "The Big Three" don't appear in the Bendisvengers post-Civil War is because the team was famously split up.
And if you will take note I was actually responding to the following comment:

"even Bendis who proved every issue that he has no idea what the avengers are about got one thing right which was the inclusion of at least 2 of the big 3 in every incarnation of his bendisvengers,"

I fully know the reasons behind the roster changes, I was pointing out however that contrary to the claim made the various Bendisvenger teams over the years did not in fact include 2-3 of the big three.

Heck, Slott's Mighty Avengers team which many heralded as the TRUE Avengers team during this period did not have Cap, IM or Thor as well.

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And back to the point of appearances of the Big Three in Avengers over the decades since 1963....I'll refer you to an excellent series of infographics
I never said that Cap, Thor or Iron Man did not have plenty of Avenger appearances.

I did point out the fact that there were periods and stretches of the series that either had one or none of them and nevertheless were still very much the Avengers. What you posted doesn't contradict that.

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Old 06-01-2012, 08:11 PM   #88
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Default Re: Should Avengers be a trilogy, 4 movie set, or continuous

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Originally Posted by Upset Spideyfan View Post
And if you will take note I was actually responding to the following comment:

"even Bendis who proved every issue that he has no idea what the avengers are about got one thing right which was the inclusion of at least 2 of the big 3 in every incarnation of his bendisvengers,"

I fully know the reasons behind the roster changes, I was pointing out however that contrary to the claim made the various Bendisvenger teams over the years did not in fact include 2-3 of the big three.

Heck, Slott's Mighty Avengers team which many heralded as the TRUE Avengers team during this period did not have Cap, IM or Thor as well.



I never said that Cap, Thor or Iron Man did not have plenty of Avenger appearances.

I did point out the fact that there were periods and stretches of the series that either had one or none of them and nevertheless were still very much the Avengers. What you posted doesn't contradict that.
What "stretches?" Seriously, I want to know.....I subscribed to Avengers religiously from 1972 through 1996, and have caught up on most of the rest of them online via MDCU since then. I've read almost every single issue of any comic book with "Avengers" in the name, sans Great Lakes, which I confess I never really got into. And I don't recall *any* stretch at any time that didn't feature at least one of the Big Three in the cast. What issues are you talking about? What time period?

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Old 06-01-2012, 08:19 PM   #89
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Default Re: Should Avengers be a trilogy, 4 movie set, or continuous

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Originally Posted by cherokeesam View Post
And I don't recall *any* stretch at any time that didn't feature at least one of the Big Three in the cast. What issues are you talking about? What time period?
Well to be specific I said,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Upset Spideyfan View Post
I did point out the fact that there were periods and stretches of the series that either had one or none of them

But in any case:



Just off the top of my head:

Avengers #16-65

The team was initially comprised of:

Captain America
Hawkeye
Scarlet Witch
Quicksilver

with Black Panther, Vision and Giant Man being added and Cap leaving during this period.



Edit:

A similar point was some pretty big swaths of Avengers 235-299.


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Old 06-01-2012, 10:11 PM   #90
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Default Re: Should Avengers be a trilogy, 4 movie set, or continuous

I said: "And I don't recall *any* stretch at any time that didn't feature at least one of the Big Three in the cast."

The issues you're referring to still very much have Cap as "at least one of the Big Three." You're referencing Cap's "Kooky Quartet" period in that first group, but he still represents the core Avengers; and that second group doesn't count because, again, as I stated in the previous post, you're trying to pretend that West Coast Avengers (which Iron Man is heading up during the same period) doesn't count as "official," and nothing could be further from the truth. West Coast ARE Avengers, period --- they're still under the same charter, everything.

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Old 06-01-2012, 10:17 PM   #91
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Default Re: Should Avengers be a trilogy, 4 movie set, or continuous

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The issues you're referring to still very much have Cap as "at least one of the Big Three." You're referencing Cap's "Kooky Quartet" period in that first group, but he still represents the core Avengers; and that second group doesn't count because, again, as I stated in the previous post, you're trying to pretend that West Coast Avengers (which Iron Man is heading up during the same period) doesn't count as "official," and nothing could be further from the truth. West Coast ARE Avengers, period --- they're still under the same charter, everything.
I honestly don't even know why are you are bringing up West Coast Avengers?

I think they count as Avengers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cherokeesam View Post
I said: "And I don't recall *any* stretch at any time that didn't feature at least one of the Big Three in the cast."

The issues you're referring to still very much have Cap as "at least one of the Big Three."
And there were in fact stretches of those periods in which Cap was not in them. Cap's Kooky Quartet became a quintet when Giant Man joined back up and then Cap left and Panther took command of the team. The book suddenly didn't stop being Avengers. The same goes for Namor's team, I in fact posted covers from those issues: notice that Cap is not in them.

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Old 06-01-2012, 11:15 PM   #92
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Default Re: Should Avengers be a trilogy, 4 movie set, or continuous

You're talking about a handful of books, at best. Cap has always been the heart of the team, with Iron Man ranking a close second, and Thor's presence always hovered over the group even when he wasn't there. That's why Avengers fans have always referred to them as the Big Three, and they definitely form the team's center. I've often heard it referred to on a certain Avengers fansite as Iron Man being the brains, Thor being the brawn, and Cap being the heart and soul of the Avengers.

And in a film series, I just can't see how you or anyone else could be lobbying for removal of these three, even for only one or two movies. One or two movies marks a span of 2-6 years....I don't see Avengers maintaining at all through that without them. Like I said elsewhere, if you turn this franchise into Power Rangers with a new set of heroes and actors every phase, you might as well kiss it goodbye.

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Old 06-02-2012, 01:38 AM   #93
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Default Re: Should Avengers be a trilogy, 4 movie set, or continuous

We're already going to have to deal with new actors every phase when they undergo recasts, that's already going to happen so I don't see the harm in taking advantage of the transition. And I think if anything the last set of Marvel flicks have shown us that the general audiences are willing to embrace new characters that they are unfamiliar with provided they are done well.

Anyway by the time Avengers 3 rolls around each of them will at least have been in 6 movies total, new characters and new dynamics will bring some fresh blood and keep the movies from becoming static.

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Old 06-02-2012, 07:19 AM   #94
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Default Re: Should Avengers be a trilogy, 4 movie set, or continuous

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We're already going to have to deal with new actors every phase when they undergo recasts, that's already going to happen so I don't see the harm in taking advantage of the transition. And I think if anything the last set of Marvel flicks have shown us that the general audiences are willing to embrace new characters that they are unfamiliar with provided they are done well.

Anyway by the time Avengers 3 rolls around each of them will at least have been in 6 movies total, new characters and new dynamics will bring some fresh blood and keep the movies from becoming static.
The Marvel movies have also shown us that audiences are willing to embrace recasts of major characters (Bruce Banner, James Rhodes) without having to scrap or reboot those characters.

And adding new characters without taking away the existing characters keeps things fresh, too, wouldn't you say? That's the way the comics did it, and Joss has proven that there's nothing wrong with the way the comics did it.

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Old 06-02-2012, 11:45 AM   #95
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Default Re: Should Avengers be a trilogy, 4 movie set, or continuous

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and I would be VERY disappointed if it's only a trilogy.
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Originally Posted by cherokeesam View Post
Ditto.

"Trilogy" is blinders-on, old school Hollywood thinking. Marvel has vision (literally), and is in the business of making long-lasting franchises, not creating projects with expiration dates.

Why? At this point, Hemsworth IS Thor, RDJ IS Ironman, etc...is it worth it to have different actors play these characters just for the sake of constant continuity? I say no. Its sad. RDJ, Hemsworth, Evans, these guys ARE the avengers. They have become their characters. They will not keep reappearing in these movies after their contract to star in them. So the next thing to do would be to re-cast them.

Now excuse me for being, apparently ridiculous. But HOW the HELL are you all okay with that? Seriously!? You guys got me scratching my head. These guys have all made an impact as the characters they are playing. To see an on going franchise, having someone else play thor, someone else play stark, someone else play cap, that is heart breaking. Seeing the movie and its a different actor playing the heroes we got used to loving, and seeing the faces we got so used to portraying them?

How are you guys okay with that? I think it would ruin it, simply because recasting in the same universe is always a mistake, Ruffalo is the exception, because we didn't really get a Hulk franchise.

It just doesn't make sense. These actors ARE the heroes they are playing. And to see the avengers franchise go beyond 3 movies will most likely mean a re cast. And to me, to go into the theater, and see the avengers, and seeing all new actors playing the characters we love, AFTER being so used to the guys who brought the characters to life, well that would just be a very sad, and in all honesty, to me, heartbreaking. I wouldn't be able to watch it with the same excitement. In my opinion, letting this happen for the sake of having an ongoing franchise, is just not worth it.

And for heaven's sake, it is absolutely beyond me, how the hell I am literally the ONLY person who feels this way!!! Im in awe, seriously. Keep it trilogy, no more avengers movies with different casts playing already existing characters, thats too painful to watch in my opinion, its sad, and it will just feel wrong.

I really don't understand how I am the only one who feels this way.

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Old 06-02-2012, 11:47 AM   #96
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Default Re: Should Avengers be a trilogy, 4 movie set, or continuous

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Originally Posted by Upset Spideyfan View Post
We're already going to have to deal with new actors every phase when they undergo recasts, that's already going to happen so I don't see the harm in taking advantage of the transition. And I think if anything the last set of Marvel flicks have shown us that the general audiences are willing to embrace new characters that they are unfamiliar with provided they are done well.

Anyway by the time Avengers 3 rolls around each of them will at least have been in 6 movies total, new characters and new dynamics will bring some fresh blood and keep the movies from becoming static.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cherokeesam View Post
The Marvel movies have also shown us that audiences are willing to embrace recasts of major characters (Bruce Banner, James Rhodes) without having to scrap or reboot those characters.

And adding new characters without taking away the existing characters keeps things fresh, too, wouldn't you say? That's the way the comics did it, and Joss has proven that there's nothing wrong with the way the comics did it.
read my post I just posted, and its different though, those are minor characters. Bruce is not, but Bruce has not really had his own franchise, we have had 2 movies 5 years apart, then another one 4 years later.

Hemsworth IS Thor. RDJ IS Ironman. Evans IS Cap. Recasting those guys, to me, is just a mistake, I would have a hard time watching that, and would probably have a feeling of sadness watching the movies.

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Old 06-02-2012, 12:24 PM   #97
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Default Re: Should Avengers be a trilogy, 4 movie set, or continuous

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And adding new characters without taking away the existing characters keeps things fresh, too, wouldn't you say? That's the way the comics did it, and Joss has proven that there's nothing wrong with the way the comics did it.

Of course the dilemma is as you add characters you inevitably start to take away screen time from other characters. It was amazing that Whedon managed to develop each of the Avengers as much as he did, but you can't maintain that balance as the movie becomes increasingly busier with a larger cast. I think the maximum size of an Avengers film roster should be no more than 7 (compared to the 6 we already have) simply for the sake of being able to showcase each of them sufficiently.

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Old 06-02-2012, 07:12 PM   #98
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Default Re: Should Avengers be a trilogy, 4 movie set, or continuous

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Why? At this point, Hemsworth IS Thor, RDJ IS Ironman, etc...is it worth it to have different actors play these characters just for the sake of constant continuity? I say no. Its sad. RDJ, Hemsworth, Evans, these guys ARE the avengers. They have become their characters. They will not keep reappearing in these movies after their contract to star in them. So the next thing to do would be to re-cast them.

Now excuse me for being, apparently ridiculous. But HOW the HELL are you all okay with that? Seriously!? You guys got me scratching my head. These guys have all made an impact as the characters they are playing. To see an on going franchise, having someone else play thor, someone else play stark, someone else play cap, that is heart breaking. Seeing the movie and its a different actor playing the heroes we got used to loving, and seeing the faces we got so used to portraying them?

How are you guys okay with that? I think it would ruin it, simply because recasting in the same universe is always a mistake, Ruffalo is the exception, because we didn't really get a Hulk franchise.

It just doesn't make sense. These actors ARE the heroes they are playing. And to see the avengers franchise go beyond 3 movies will most likely mean a re cast. And to me, to go into the theater, and see the avengers, and seeing all new actors playing the characters we love, AFTER being so used to the guys who brought the characters to life, well that would just be a very sad, and in all honesty, to me, heartbreaking. I wouldn't be able to watch it with the same excitement. In my opinion, letting this happen for the sake of having an ongoing franchise, is just not worth it.

And for heaven's sake, it is absolutely beyond me, how the hell I am literally the ONLY person who feels this way!!! Im in awe, seriously. Keep it trilogy, no more avengers movies with different casts playing already existing characters, thats too painful to watch in my opinion, its sad, and it will just feel wrong.

I really don't understand how I am the only one who feels this way.
Hemsworth is not Thor, nor Chris Evans Cap, nor Jeremy Renner Hawkeye, any more than Edward Norton "is" Hulk. A lot of people *****ed about the Ruffalo recast; and now I hear nary a word about it. The same people who hated on Ruffalo now love him, it seems. And they'll love whoever replaces him. Or Hemsworth. Or Evans.

Nobody's advocating recasting these guys right now. Least of all me. And when their contracts expire, I firmly believe very few (if any) of them are going to go quietly into that good night. RDJ just got FIFTY FREAKIN' MILLION DOLLARS for his role in Avengers. RDJ didn't create Iron Man; Iron Man created *him*. The role literally saved his life, resurrected his career, and made him the superstar he is today. When his contract expires, HE WILL NOT WALK. Trust me. Contracts are made to be renegotiated, and RDJ will do his goddamnedest to renegotiate and stay in the role.

These guys are fine actors, one and all. They've done a great job in defining their roles. But if you think they *created* these roles, you're off your rocker. These roles were created fifty years ago. Before most of these guys were even born. And these roles will live on long after these actors are gone.

I'm in awe, seriously. It's just sad; it doesn't make sense; and I really don't understand how you or anyone else could think that these ICONIC CHARACTERS who make up the very heart of the Marvel Universe should cease to exist as soon as their respective actors end their contracts.

Avengers without Iron Man? Without Cap? Without Thor? The Marvel Universe without these icons?
Holy ****. Just.....wow.
Really?

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Old 06-02-2012, 08:13 PM   #99
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Default Re: Should Avengers be a trilogy, 4 movie set, or continuous

Just to make it clear, I am with you on this account; I am not against recasts in the slightest.

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Old 06-02-2012, 09:21 PM   #100
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Default Re: Should Avengers be a trilogy, 4 movie set, or continuous

I know. And I was overexaggerating with my reply to jaqua, but it's just that he was so *flabbergasted* that anyone could think it's okay to recast these roles (eventually); so I'm telling him that I'm *flabbergasted* that anyone could think it's *not* okay to recast.

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