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Old 05-30-2012, 12:06 PM   #51
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Default Re: Could this be the Star Wars of comic movies?

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I took the OP to be referencing the avengers to star wars cultural impact and not so much on film innovation per se.

Superman 79 and batman 89 were big but they didn't lead to a shift in public tastes. There was no superhero boon in the 80's, like wise for most of the 90's they only had the continuing batman series.

Spider-man lead directly to the genre domination. TDK i've already explained. It terms of cultural impact i don't see the avengers in that way. It's a popular film people enjoy but i don't see much coming out of it's success as a whole on a cultural legacy.
I think a lot of that had to do with SFX restrictions. Had filmmakers in the 70's had the SFX to do Spider-man right they would have. And yes, you explained TDK, but as I've said, it still did nothing new.

Again, I'm comparing this to Star Wars in terms of impact. I'm not saying Spider-man and TDK didn't have a huge impact. They did. They most certainly did. But were they movies that redfined a genre (or practically invented it?) No, they weren't. They built on what had been done before, did it better, and made it more popular.

And I think it's a bit silly to try and say TA isn't a pop culture event. It is. I do think it will have some effect. You can bet other studios will take note of how well this cross-over project has worked. But again, a movie that makes as much money as TA is garunteed to be a pop culture event. Is it Star Wars? No. But TDK and Spider-man weren't either.

As I said above, I'd call TA this generations Indiana Jones. Did it do anyting new? No. But what it did it did extremely well, and was incredibly fun. And people and audiences really connected to it. Was Indy a pop culture event? Yep. Was Avengers? Definitely. Too many people have seen it for it not to be. It's on a list of films that were ALL pop culture events.

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Old 05-30-2012, 12:07 PM   #52
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Default Re: Could this be the Star Wars of comic movies?

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The academy didn't increase to 10 because of TDK not being nominated. It was a ratings grab, although yes WB execs did complain on it not being nominated. But to say that it changed the nomination process is a gross exaggeration of what happened.
It wasn't a coincidence the academy changed its nomination process from 5 to 10 pictures after not changing the formula once since 1945, the year after the TDK oscar snub controversy.

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Old 05-30-2012, 12:15 PM   #53
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Yes it had an effect, but as Ebert said it's about alienating the viewing public, which is about TV ratings.

That's really all the Oscars is about, generating TV ratings. I mean they could give out the awards without televising it. People tune in to watch, so they have to be aware of those things.

The Academy however doesn't care about TV ratings, they don't like blockbuster movies, and they want to give awards to lesser known films that are well made.
Well, TDK was the thing that most alienated the public. And they were worried that future responses similar to what happened to the situation with TDK would hurt ratings. So yes, there were other factors in there, but it's pretty clear that TDK was a very large reason for the change.

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Old 05-30-2012, 12:15 PM   #54
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I think a lot of that had to do with SFX restrictions. Had filmmakers in the 70's had the SFX to do Spider-man right they would have. And yes, you explained TDK, but as I've said, it still did nothing new.

Again, I'm comparing this to Star Wars in terms of impact. I'm not saying Spider-man and TDK didn't have a huge impact. They did. They most certainly did. But were they movies that redfined a genre (or practically invented it?) No, they weren't. They built on what had been done before, did it better, and made it more popular.

And I think it's a bit silly to try and say TA isn't a pop culture event. It is. I do think it will have some effect. You can bet other studios will take note of how well this cross-over project has worked. But again, a movie that makes as much money as TA is garunteed to be a pop culture event. Is it Star Wars? No. But TDK and Spider-man weren't either.

As I said above, I'd call TA this generations Indiana Jones. Did it do anyting new? No. But what it did it did extremely well, and was incredibly fun. And people and audiences really connected to it. Was Indy a pop culture event? Yep. Was Avengers? Definitely. Too many people have seen it for it not to be. It's on a list of films that were ALL pop culture events.
I'm purely comparing these 2 films to the avengers star wars comparison the OP is trying to make. I agree both spider-man, TDK and especially the avengers are not on the level of cultural impact of star wars.

However i am arguing spider-man and TDK on a level above the avengers in that comparison. Honestly you can't just use money as proof of impact anymore. With 3d tickets and inflation big money does not equal big lasting impact. I believe TDK still has more tickets sold than the avengers and spider-man is probably pretty close too.

In a world of billion dollar alice and wonderlands and POTC 4's, transformer 3's supposed "pop-culture events" are becoming a dime a dozen.

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Old 05-30-2012, 12:22 PM   #55
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I'm purely comparing these 2 films to the avengers star wars comparison the OP is trying to make. I agree both spider-man, TDK and especially the avengers are not on the level of cultural impact of star wars.

However i am arguing spider-man and TDK on a level above the avengers in that comparison. Honestly you can't just use money as proof of impact anymore. With 3d tickets and inflation big money does not equal big lasting impact. I believe TDK still has more tickets sold than avengers and spider-man is probably pretty close too.

In a world of billion dollar alice and wonderlands and POTC 4's, transformer 3's supposed "pop-culture events" are becoming a dime a dozen.
I do agree, the billion dollar mark is not the same as it has been. But The Avengers is still in a club of movies that have ALL been culture events. The top 5 domestic. None of the films you mentioned (Alice, POTC, Transformers) have cracked that club. Now, currently, TDK is still ahead of TA in terms of adjusted ticket sales, but TA could very well beat that record as well.

I would say I think TA is definitely ahead of Spider-man in terms of cultural impact. However TDK is a harder one. TDK had the impact of Heath's death along with it being an amazing movie. However, Heath's untimely death also generated a lot of discussion and had an effect on pop culture by itself. TA doesn't have that. (No films have in terms of comic films).

So I could say that TDK was above TA in terms of pop culture events. But I would still definitely call TA a pop culture event. I think it's been ingrained in the public conciousness and will be remembered as a classic action/adventure film. Again, in the same vein as Indy.

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Old 05-30-2012, 12:26 PM   #56
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It wasn't a coincidence the academy changed its nomination process from 5 to 10 pictures after not changing the formula once since 1945, the year after the TDK oscar snub controversy.
I never said it was a coincidence. TDK was the straw that broke the camels back. The Oscars have a whole laundry list of films it's snubbed for lesser known films.

Ratings were going down and they snubbed a popular film. To say that they changed it just because TDK was snubbed is a gross overstatement of what happened. That had been building with the Oscars for decades.

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Old 05-30-2012, 12:30 PM   #57
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Default Re: Could this be the Star Wars of comic movies?

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I never said it was a coincidence. TDK was the straw that broke the camels back. The Oscars have a whole laundry list of films it's snubbed for lesser known films.

Ratings were going down and they snubbed a popular film. To say that they changed it just because TDK was snubbed is a gross overstatement of what happened. That had been building with the Oscars for decades.
LOTR had a lot to do with the updates to Oscar criteria.

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Old 05-30-2012, 12:48 PM   #58
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I have said even before the movie came out that there are so many Avengers in the comics, and so many stories in the comics, that they could keep the films going after Avengers 3 and they should. Once the contracts are up bring in the next group of Avengers (of coarse stagger the roster so that Giant Man and Wasp are working with Cap and Iron Man and once the original cast leaves you still have Giant Man and Wasp.) Just make sure that there is always a few Avengers left from the previous film when you bring in the next Avengers and you keep it going.
Have Pym and Wasp show up in movie 2 or 3 and they leave around movie 5 or 6. Bring in new Avengers after that and just keep going like this.

And from what they had planned they were going to use the Avengers movies in the AKA tv series that would have brought in Jessica Drew and Luke Cage as well as a cameo by Ms. Marvel. So they could have had the movie universe flow into the TV universe.
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I'd love to see that, but I hope the producers aren't thinking of it in terms of that. We'd get another Saw franchise which burned out near the end. It'd be better if they took it one movie at a time and really focus all their energies into it.

There will be an Avengers and a Batman remake/reboot some time in the following decades, just as there has been for Star Trek (Next Gen) and Star Wars (prequels). But both TA and TDK will remain the bench-mark even for them. THAT's popularity... THAT is influence.
I am not saying write it that way, I agree they should take it one movie at a time. But they could set it up this way just in case. In Avengers 2 bring in Ant Man and Wasp. Their contracts will naturally have them signed up for 3 Avengers films and one of those films will be after the original cast left. All this would take place behind the scenes really. This idea would only cover the roster, not the plots at all. The plots would have to be great to keep this franchise going. But with this idea the door is left open for more films.
And this idea wouldn't require a reboot to the franchise either. Look how long James Bond went without a reboot, and I don't know if its technically a reboot for him either. But the Avengers could be like Star Wars or James Bond, going for years and years, building on the characters and the story.

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Old 05-30-2012, 12:49 PM   #59
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Default Re: Could this be the Star Wars of comic movies?

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I never said it was a coincidence. TDK was the straw that broke the camels back. The Oscars have a whole laundry list of films it's snubbed for lesser known films.

Ratings were going down and they snubbed a popular film. To say that they changed it just because TDK was snubbed is a gross overstatement of what happened. That had been building with the Oscars for decades.
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LOTR had a lot to do with the updates to Oscar criteria.



The LOTR was or at least ROTK was nominated/won however. I think what played a role was the fact that you had the Reader a film that not even critics enjoyed and almost no one saw be nominated for best picture due to behind the scenes wheelings and dealings with miramax and the academy, while a critically praised and highly popular film was not.

I think the oscars realized ppl were starting to call them on their bs and felt they had to act.

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Old 05-30-2012, 01:10 PM   #60
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I don't think TA could become a cultural phenomenon that Star Wars was; in fact, I don't think there will ever be another Star Wars, since not even the Prequels could duplicate OT's success despite sharing the same brand. However, I do believe TA will influence this generation like Star Wars had done 30 years ago, and they will grow up idolizing these superheroes like I did with Transformers, G.I.Joe, and Voltron.

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Old 05-30-2012, 01:45 PM   #61
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Imagine if they make the AKA show, and have Ms. Marvel cameo in it, and then Ms. Marvel could be in the Avengers, and eventually Luke Cage could become an Avenger. The AKA show could be part of the larger Avengers universe. Crossing over back and forth. They could sign the actors up for a few TV cameos as well as movie cameos.

And They could keep the steam going (from the build up leading to Avengers 1) by more solo movies. Ant Man and Wasp, Iron Man 3, Thor 2, Captain America 2, and then finally Avengers 2 with Ant Man and Wasp in it too.

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Old 05-30-2012, 01:57 PM   #62
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I don't think TA could become a cultural phenomenon that Star Wars was; in fact, I don't think there will ever be another Star Wars, since not even the Prequels could duplicate OT's success despite sharing the same brand. However, I do believe TA will influence this generation like Star Wars had done 30 years ago, and they will grow up idolizing these superheroes like I did with Transformers, G.I.Joe, and Voltron.
Star Wars was a one shot deal. I agree with whoever said that TA is more like this generations Indiana Jones.

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Old 05-30-2012, 06:01 PM   #63
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Star Wars was a one shot deal. I agree with whoever said that TA is more like this generations Indiana Jones.
Yep. That's what I've been saying. Indy was still a huge hit and definitely influenced pop culture for years to come (which I think Avengers will too), but it wasn't a "game changer" in the sense that Star Wars was. Indy didn't do anything new. It just did what it set out to do amazingly well. That's pretty much exactly how I feel about TA.

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Old 05-30-2012, 07:48 PM   #64
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I agree they need to kick Zak Penn to the curb (should have a loooong time ago), but I'm going to personally disagree that returning to the movie franchise will be a better business move than the TV series. For one, you have a GREAT writer-director already aboard, as I said, as opposed to having to find a new one for a film; and for another, the Hulk film franchise has been, shall we say, less than stellar. Even with Hulk unquestionably being a fan favorite after Avengers, there's still no evidence that Ruffalo would be able to carry a Hulk franchise all alone, and there's no evidence that audiences will be interested in watching another Hulk solo movie where the army hunts down the Big Green Monster. (Which, invariably, will be what we see. Again.)

Feige's latest comments don't seem to show any greater interest in returning to a Hulk film franchise. "We will see the Ruffalo Hulk in future. I don't know when or how, exactly, but he's an interesting character, and so many new avenues have opened up. But now in the movies, who's gonna pop up where? You're never quite sure."
In the The Avengers it was established that SHIELD kept the military off of Banner, and we saw Banner leave with Stark after everyone went their separate ways (presumably taking Stark up on his offer to go work for him) so I reckon that any Hulk film following the events of The Avengers would be very different from the two Hulk films we've already seen.

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Old 05-30-2012, 09:05 PM   #65
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I'd saw it more of a Star Trek. The movie was a lot like Star Trek 09. Opening action sequence with the arrival of the villain cut to the title of the movie with the theme played behind it. And Fury, Coulson, Widow, Hawkeye, and even Hill had their moments while the film still centered on Thor, Iron Man, Captain America, and Hulk. Just like Bones, Uhura, Chekov, and Sulu had their moments while it still centered on Kirk and Spock. Both of them are team films (And the earlier Star Trek films) While Star Wars is about Luke and everyone else is just supporting. Same with Indiana Jones films.


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Old 05-30-2012, 10:07 PM   #66
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In the The Avengers it was established that SHIELD kept the military off of Banner, and we saw Banner leave with Stark after everyone went their separate ways (presumably taking Stark up on his offer to go work for him) so I reckon that any Hulk film following the events of The Avengers would be very different from the two Hulk films we've already seen.

Doubtful. Invariably, it'll come back to the fact that Hulk is just way too dangerous to play well with others. Hell, they may even pull an Illuminati conspiracy and say they have to kick him off the planet (Planet Hulk style) or something equally drastic "for the safety of humanity."

I doubt the GA or fanboys want to see Hulk the Friendly Neighborhood Policeman. Hulk has always worked as misunderstood, hunted and hounded. That's the Hulk that people have paid for for 50+ years.

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Old 05-30-2012, 10:51 PM   #67
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Except they *haven't*, given the poor performance of the two movies to date. That's a good argument for doing *anything but* "Hulk hounded by military again."

He was a super hero in Avengers, and the audience loved it. How about trying that for a change?

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Old 05-31-2012, 07:09 AM   #68
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Except they *haven't*, given the poor performance of the two movies to date. That's a good argument for doing *anything but* "Hulk hounded by military again."

He was a super hero in Avengers, and the audience loved it. How about trying that for a change?

....maybe because that's *not* who the character is....?

Why not do a Punisher movie where Frank Castle is a by-the-book Law & Order SVU-type cop? Why not do a Spider-Man movie where he's duly deputized by the NYPD and works hand-in-glove with the police commissioner and answers distress calls with a nifty Spider-Signal in the night sky?

Hulk is Hulk.

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Old 05-31-2012, 08:13 AM   #69
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Funny thing is...in the comics, i friggin' hate the Hulk.

Well..since the world war Hulk storyline anyway. Since it's such a Hulk fan service that they made the character steamrolled over everybody in the Marvel universe.

I mean... he beat the friggin' Sentry!...c'mon now!

But i like the current marvel movie-verse Hulk.

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Old 05-31-2012, 10:21 AM   #70
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....maybe because that's *not* who the character is....?

Why not do a Punisher movie where Frank Castle is a by-the-book Law & Order SVU-type cop? Why not do a Spider-Man movie where he's duly deputized by the NYPD and works hand-in-glove with the police commissioner and answers distress calls with a nifty Spider-Signal in the night sky?

Hulk is Hulk.
The Hulk has spent years and years of entirely popular runs as an intelligent, rational character who largely does super hero stuff. There is nothing about the Hulk's concept that requires that he *always* be hunted by the military, non-stop, no changes ever. The core concept of the Hulk is a mix of Jekyll/Hyde and Frankenstein; having a story where "Jekyll and Hyde" come to some accommodation, and Frankenstein actually finds a place, is a totally valid progression of events. Particularly seeing as Marvel has *already moved in that direction*, which means reverting to the prior status quo would be a really bad idea from a dramatic perspective ( and a "selling tickets to audiences" perspective ).

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Old 05-31-2012, 11:45 AM   #71
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I'd saw it more of a Star Trek. The movie was a lot like Star Trek 09. Opening action sequence with the arrival of the villain cut to the title of the movie with the theme played behind it. And Fury, Coulson, Widow, Hawkeye, and even Hill had their moments while the film still centered on Thor, Iron Man, Captain America, and Hulk. Just like Bones, Uhura, Chekov, and Sulu had their moments while it still centered on Kirk and Spock. Both of them are team films (And the earlier Star Trek films) While Star Wars is about Luke and everyone else is just supporting. Same with Indiana Jones films.
I was talking in terms of cultural influence, not the actual story composition. In terms of story, yes, it's definitely more similar to ST, because TA is a team movie. But in terms of cultural impact, I think Indy is the best comparison.

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Old 05-31-2012, 12:29 PM   #72
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....maybe because that's *not* who the character is....?

Why not do a Punisher movie where Frank Castle is a by-the-book Law & Order SVU-type cop? Why not do a Spider-Man movie where he's duly deputized by the NYPD and works hand-in-glove with the police commissioner and answers distress calls with a nifty Spider-Signal in the night sky?

Hulk is Hulk.
I've beat this horse to death Cherokee. Some people don't a have a true grasp of what makes the Hulk as a character truly great. He is a tortured soul and an outcast who can never truly be accepted. Even during the relatively short periods as Professor Hulk he was never completely trusted and didn't fit on any team for long.

Some will point to the Pantheon (his longest "active" team membership), but that experiment ended in Banner losing control of the Hulk and being ejected. In fact, just about every extended team participation ended with the Hulk berserking.

As you say, the Hulk is the Hulk. He is the strongest there is and what he does is smash! He can't be contained for long in any team dynamic.

I still feel he can serve a sequel best as a reluctant antagonist. Maybe being manipulated by Thanos. I really don't want him as a straight up good guy. His unpredictable nature provide lots of good conflict that writers can exploit for dramatic effect.

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Old 05-31-2012, 05:47 PM   #73
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But you do agree that it was a pop-cultural milestone in the superhero genre?

You could hate it, I hate a lot of the more popular stuff myself (the Harry Potter films as opposed to the books) but i'd certainly acknowledge their popularity.

I keep watching these superhero films and everytime I find something new and personal to connect with -- I wasn't a big fan of Spidey 2 when it came out but over the years it has grown to be one of my favourite films in the genre. And THIS GENRE is the one I'm most passionate about among all the different film genres that are out there. So yeah.



I'd love to see that, but I hope the producers aren't thinking of it in terms of that. We'd get another Saw franchise which burned out near the end. It'd be better if they took it one movie at a time and really focus all their energies into it.

There will be an Avengers and a Batman remake/reboot some time in the following decades, just as there has been for Star Trek (Next Gen) and Star Wars (prequels). But both TA and TDK will remain the bench-mark even for them. THAT's popularity... THAT is influence.

I'm not b.s.ing about the future, it's just apparent. You never steered away from the original Star Wars trilogy or the original Star Trek series. I'm sure the same can be said with these franchises -- whatever comes along in the future will definitely be overtly conscious about the success (critical and box-office) of these films.



Yeah i never got that... Zak Penn is TERRIBLE. Why's he Marvel's golden boy? Heck, David Hayter writes better than him and he spends half his time fighting metal gears in different eras and practice the Kurt Russell school of scowl.
Well, I don't really. To me, it was more popularity. Opposed to really, creating the template of the superhero genre, or the milestone.

To me, its like the beatles. They were a big thing popularity wise, their music was loved, but their impact on the rock and roll industry, in my opinion, was MUCH less than the impact and influence of the stones, the who, and led zeppelin.

To me the dark knight was just,, in a lot of people's eyes, a very good movie, with batman. As far as the Avengers are concerned, based on what I am seeing around here, the dark knights impact, in terms of super hero film is miniscule compared to the avengers. Everyone around here, that is the ultimate super hero movie. And it is. Not to hate on TDK, but if I watch a movie with comic book characters, god damn, I want it to have a comic book feel, thats what it is. And that is what the Dark knight was not.

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Old 05-31-2012, 09:02 PM   #74
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Default Re: Could this be the Star Wars of comic movies?

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Funny thing is...in the comics, i friggin' hate the Hulk.

Well..since the world war Hulk storyline anyway. Since it's such a Hulk fan service that they made the character steamrolled over everybody in the Marvel universe.

I mean... he beat the friggin' Sentry!...c'mon now!

But i like the current marvel movie-verse Hulk.
He didn't beat Ghost Rider.

Plus, I support Hulk beating Sentry. Screw him, I hope that OP assclown stays in the sun for the rest of eternity.

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Old 05-31-2012, 09:35 PM   #75
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Default Re: Could this be the Star Wars of comic movies?

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The Hulk has spent years and years of entirely popular runs as an intelligent, rational character who largely does super hero stuff. There is nothing about the Hulk's concept that requires that he *always* be hunted by the military, non-stop, no changes ever. The core concept of the Hulk is a mix of Jekyll/Hyde and Frankenstein; having a story where "Jekyll and Hyde" come to some accommodation, and Frankenstein actually finds a place, is a totally valid progression of events. Particularly seeing as Marvel has *already moved in that direction*, which means reverting to the prior status quo would be a really bad idea from a dramatic perspective ( and a "selling tickets to audiences" perspective ).
Yes. We should change characters into their opposite if that sells tickets. There's no reason to keep the characters being what they are.

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