The Amazing Spider-Man v.2 - Part 3

[The Infernal]

Originally Posted by Czar Colossus

.......and poor MJ is deformed.

For the most part I like the art in the book, but MJ does look wonky quite a bit in the book. Not ever instance, there's a couple where she looks quite good, but she does often look quite weird in the book. Those cheek lines and weird jaw/chin and left eye being noticeably higher than the right at times. Not to mention her whole 'lollipop' head.

I should probably give Doc Ock a mention as well since he's another low point in the art for me. I get he's supposed to be withered and dying, but he looks like E.T.

[Themanofbat]

Originally Posted by CantThinkOfAName

I remember euroq saying the same thing about JMS, and look how that turned out

I'm not euroq... and JMS is certainly no Dan Slott...

[Themanofbat]

Originally Posted by Mr. Dent

not sure if you mean he left after only 7 years or he had a bad run because of OMD. I'm pretty sure Marvel had more to do with OMD than JMS himself.

JMS' run was VERY bad after JrJr left the book... his issue #500 was mediocre at best, and gave a total crapola on continuity...

He had a few gems in his 7 year stint... but his run on ASM was one of the weakest the book had ever seen...

[wobbly]

Originally Posted by Mr. Dent

not sure if you mean he left after only 7 years or he had a bad run because of OMD. I'm pretty sure Marvel had more to do with OMD than JMS himself.

I know OMD was an editorial mandate from Quesada (I think JMS refused the write the ending?) but wasn't 'Sins Past' all his idea?

Not sure if 'the Other' was his idea or not but that was another one that should never have seen print. Can't say I cared much for all that Spider Totem stuff he tried to shoehorn into Spidey's origin either (personally I think writers should leave well established origins for characters alone, but JMS went on to try and revise the FF's origin as well to his own vision so I guess that's just a thing with him).

Not saying there wasn't some good stories in his run, but the bad were really bad.

[Mr. Dent]

Yea Sins Past was his idea...one of the only things I really hold against him during his run. That was stupid. Didn't have much of a problem with "The Other" as some others did though.

[moraldeficiency]

500 was at least as good as 600 or 700. At least. Not that any of them were really good but 700 would have to be the low point of the 100's issues in recent times. 698 would be the high point for slott's run, with 699 and 700 getting steadily worse. The big twist already out it just seemed slott was happy with what seemed so self contained a story. Peter lost and lost on every level, out fought and out smarted completely. Any emotional punch? No, sadly the uncle ben thing has been done in the last three 100's issues so this was less touching then just something we had come to expect. For an issue with the death of peter parker, for an issue being the end of Spider-Man as we know it, it just didn't have the heart of so many many other "final" stories in Spider-Man history. That said it wasn't terrible, I was just expecting what slott said, "his best comic" what I got was a five and no where near as entertaining or with as much emotional impact as say an Arkham Asylum.

Say what you will about JMS, he's had some horrific issues, but his top issues and stories are vastly superior to slotts. Vastly.

[Themanofbat]

Originally Posted by moraldeficiency

Say what you will about JMS, he's had some horrific issues, but his top issues and stories are vastly superior to slotts. Vastly.

I disagree.

[Thwip!]

Originally Posted by wobbly

I know OMD was an editorial mandate from Quesada (I think JMS refused the write the ending?) but wasn't 'Sins Past' all his idea?

Not sure if 'the Other' was his idea or not but that was another one that should never have seen print. Can't say I cared much for all that Spider Totem stuff he tried to shoehorn into Spidey's origin either (personally I think writers should leave well established origins for characters alone, but JMS went on to try and revise the FF's origin as well to his own vision so I guess that's just a thing with him).

Not saying there wasn't some good stories in his run, but the bad were really bad.

From what i remember hearing was that he wrote Sins Past as a sort of conceptual arc for character exploration and he had been told that he wouldnt have to worry bout it staying in the continuity as the entire arc would end up being retconned...and then the editor decided to keep it as apart of the continuity...something i believe JMS himself is unhappy with

[Themanofbat]

Originally Posted by Thwip!

From what i remember hearing was that he wrote Sins Past as a sort of conceptual arc for character exploration and he had been told that he wouldnt have to worry bout it staying in the continuity as the entire arc would end up being retconned...

I don't believe that for a second...

[spideyboy_1111]

Originally Posted by Themanofbat

I don't believe that for a second...

Agrees....

[spideyboy_1111]

Originally Posted by Themanofbat

JMS' run was VERY bad after JrJr left the book... his issue #500 was mediocre at best, and gave a total crapola on continuity...

He had a few gems in his 7 year stint... but his run on ASM was one of the weakest the book had ever seen...

eh.... That's a bit of an overstatement ... He repudiated spidey at a time he needed it most.... The post clone saga up until jms got on the book was not only appauling but nearly unreadable... Jms was always a good story teller... And fantastic on dialogue, he just did a couple wtf ? Moments and wasn't as much if a continuity student as Dan is

[Czar Colossus]

.....and I just remembered that John Byrne suckfest Spider-man Chapter one!

[spideyboy_1111]

Originally Posted by Czar Colossus

.....and I just remembered that John Byrne suckfest Spider-man Chapter one!

Yup ..... Relaunch #1 .... Reset the numbers and gave us a single peter parker ...

Between that and "reborn" both happening within a couple years it sounds awfully familiar to what's happening now.... #marvel now

[Themanofbat]

Originally Posted by spideyboy_1111

eh.... That's a bit of an overstatement ... He repudiated spidey at a time he needed it most.... The post clone saga up until jms got on the book was not only appauling but nearly unreadable... Jms was always a good story teller... And fantastic on dialogue, he just did a couple wtf ? Moments and wasn't as much if a continuity student as Dan is

In my opinion, he was one of the books weakest writers over 50 years...

Here's my list with the ASM writers from best to worst... filler issues don't count...

1. Stan Lee
2. Marv Wolfman
3. Roger Stern
4. Gerry Conway
5. Len Wein
6. Dan Slott
7. Tom Defalco (first run)
8. J. M. Dematteis
9. Spider-Brain Trust
10. David Michelinie
11. JMS
12. Tom Defalco (second run)
13. Denny O'Neil
14. Howard Mackie

JMS' strength was his characterization, which I found he nailed with Peter, MJ & Aunt May... it's too bad he didn't expand into the other supporting cast... he could have written an awesome JJJ... but at the end of the day, aside from a few really fun stories; Morlun, conversation, MJ reunion, Digger, Loki team-up (which he didn't really write), and the NA arc... the rest of his stuff just blew donkey balls... he set up these great stories only to fumble the ball in "Part 6"...

And of course the stuff prior to JMS stunk... it was DeFalco's second run and Mackie... 2 of the 3 writers that rank BELOW JMS....

It's just my personal list... feel free to make your own... but when I look back at all these "runs", I like them the most in the order of the writers that wrote them

[runawayboulder]

Paul Jenkins needs an honorable mention. He may have never wrote ASM but damned if he didn't write some of the absolute best "one and done" Spidey stories (plural...as in much more than one) of all time.

[Themanofbat]

Originally Posted by runawayboulder

Paul Jenkins needs an honorable mention. He may have never wrote ASM but damned if he didn't write some of the absolute best "one and done" Spidey stories (plural...as in much more than one) of all time.

I agree... as would Peter David... and Bill Mantlo & Chris Claremont (they wrote some of the best MTU's)...

[JewishHobbit]

I think people criticize JMS's run WAY too much. I actuallly enjoyed his entire run. Through the death of Ezekiel, it was just fantastic. We had the story with Charlie Neiderman, which I thought was a great intro to an interesting new villain. After that we had the New Avengers arc, which was great. Sins Past was shocking but all in all I didn't mind it. I don't blame JMS much either because he wanted the kids to be Peter's not Normans... I put that on editorial. The Other... which was very enjoyable and a great ode to Peter's importance to the other heroes of the Marvel Universe. We had the Civil War stuff, which I liked a great deal. Back In Black was phenominal. That led to OMD, which was decent for the first issue or two but then collapsed into the worst comic book story I've ever read... and hey, JMS was against that.

[moraldeficiency]

Originally Posted by Themanofbat

I disagree.

As you will, the 911 issue, Peter revealing to aunt may who he really was, the new avengers arc, all were just better stories as far as major stories go. I mean JMS just had a more competent Peter Parker, one that wasn't in amazement that he could save the day one that just did it.

Slott's top stories? Good but more clever good. They didn't emotionally impact me in any way I can really say was effective. The nerd in me loved the continuity that was honored (although he did get a bit weird with that on occasion). But if you look at the characters themselves? Peter and most of the supporting cast had just plain voices which weren't distinguishable from others. The fights had Peter as a subpar effective spider-man at best and frankly I got annoyed at how "shocked" peter was whenever he won or other heroes trusted him (how many times do you have to save the world, universe, reality before you should expect people to have a bit of faith in you?). Peter's using his brain to save the day? It didn't really read right. Either he was just putting on some magical brain helmet (ASM 600, Spider-Island) which just used his brain power to fuel things or his other brilliant ideas like using the octobots in Spider-Island didn't even come from him (Smythe's idea, it just took peter forever to figure out what smythe thought up easily). I'm not saying the stories weren't good, but they just weren't amazing. Peter was average and treading water as a hero a few steps back from competence and maturity. I can't say Peter Parker during slott's run had a specific voice of did anything which will stand out as far as writers go. Good or bad and that I guess is the problem. The stories were ok, but they lacked that emotional punch, that wit and that feeling of heroics that make me like the character so much. As for a last issue, the death of spider-man did you really feel the emotional impact of the story? Did 700 really feel to you like slott's best work as he thinks (or story he's most proud of as he said)? I know you avoided the spoilers but really after reading 698 and knowing 700 would be the last issue of amazing with a "new superior spider-man" coming in, you didn't really learn much new did you? The twist ending had already come and gone and what we all expected since then happened. Peter lost intellectually and physically. The back up stories weren't anything I can say did much for me or was worth the extra money. The only part I really liked I think was the ock/MJ talk, that was pretty fun especially ock ordering her to "explain".

I'm looking forward to buying superior spider-man as I think slott's voice for villians is vastly superior to his heroes and it should be a much more enjoyable read, but looking back at his ASM I can only say it was ok. Nothing terrible (that would go to Guggheim's issues of BND) but nothing amazing either. JMS definitely wrote worse stories, but he also definitely had better ones that had me feeling actual emotions, issues I'll always remember. Other than 698 I can't say any of slott's have had that effect. Definitely not 600, definitely not 700 and definitely not as good as his work on say Arkham Asylum or AtI.

[JewishHobbit]

I think that dream issue after Marla Jameson died was emotionally good, but I can't comment beyond that.

As for favorite Amazing Spider-Man writer... it's always been David Michelinie. J.M. Dematteis would likely be my favorite Spidey writer in general but as far as ASM alone, it'd be Michelinie.

[spideyboy_1111]

Originally Posted by Themanofbat

In my opinion, he was one of the books weakest writers over 50 years...

Here's my list with the ASM writers from best to worst... filler issues don't count...

1. Stan Lee
2. Marv Wolfman
3. Roger Stern
4. Gerry Conway
5. Len Wein
6. Dan Slott
7. Tom Defalco (first run)
8. J. M. Dematteis
9. Spider-Brain Trust
10. David Michelinie
11. JMS
12. Tom Defalco (second run)
13. Denny O'Neil
14. Howard Mackie

JMS' strength was his characterization, which I found he nailed with Peter, MJ & Aunt May... it's too bad he didn't expand into the other supporting cast... he could have written an awesome JJJ... but at the end of the day, aside from a few really fun stories; Morlun, conversation, MJ reunion, Digger, Loki team-up (which he didn't really write), and the NA arc... the rest of his stuff just blew donkey balls... he set up these great stories only to fumble the ball in "Part 6"...

And of course the stuff prior to JMS stunk... it was DeFalco's second run and Mackie... 2 of the 3 writers that rank BELOW JMS....

It's just my personal list... feel free to make your own... but when I look back at all these "runs", I like them the most in the order of the writers that wrote them

Jms also wrote ezekial very well (at first... ) Infact the first ezekial arc was acclaimed, and i remember having to buy that back issue at 3times the retail price because of it....

The 9/11 issue was also fantastic, the issue of auntmay finding out, actually... Id say no one has written the may/peter relationship better than jms ... The scene at the airport with peter aunt may is literally the best moment between the two I've ever read.

[Shockdingo]

Ah, I'll always look fondly on the Aunt May reveal. It was just so great, warm and lacked melodrama; it just felt grounded to me. The fact that they were both in tears and laughing at one point (how Pete asked if she ever suspected, and May said something along the lines of thinking Pete may have been hiding some things, but not something major like this) really made it feel natural and memorable. Instead of some melodramatic storming out, May really connected with Pete, and their relationship strengthened immensely.

I regret that that's been removed, I think it's just unfair. It would also make a great moment, if say, Spectacular Spider-man wasn't cancelled and this was a season 5 cliffhanger and season 6 opener.

[runawayboulder]

Originally Posted by JewishHobbit

I think that dream issue after Marla Jameson died was emotionally good, but I can't comment beyond that.

As for favorite Amazing Spider-Man writer... it's always been David Michelinie. J.M. Dematteis would likely be my favorite Spidey writer in general but as far as ASM alone, it'd be Michelinie.

Michelinie was the only guy that made the marriage work well. Everybody else since him did their best to deconstruct it in some fashion by making MJ a nagging b***h.

[Themanofbat]

Personally, I think that only J.M. Dematteis had a good handle on the "marriage"... as well as JMS...

ASM #471 is one of my personal faves of JMS' run (the one where Spidey has to save Dr.Doom and Pete & MJ reunite)

[runawayboulder]

I liked the early JMS issues, and some of the early stuff when Pete and MJ were back together. JMS did and extraordinary job dealing with the two of them tip-toeing around each other physically after they reconciled.

I was always kinda blah on the Ezekiel totem stuff. It was ok at first but then got too be too much. It wasn't long before Sins Past and the unmasking and I got sick of him. I know a lot of it wasn't all his fault but anyway...

[Themanofbat]

I agree... his first 30 issues were really good... quite refreshing after the DeFalco (second stint) & Mackie era... ugh... but it all went to hell with the very disappointed end of the Book of Ezekiel, which followed Sins Past, and Skin Deep... etc...