The Journey's Conclusion: The Fate of Gotham, the Wayne Legacy & Batman Symbol Thread

[GENERAL RAAM582]

Those quotes made me more excited, what sorcery!?

[kvz5]

I'm not sure if Batman's identity will be revealed in the end but it is my hope that regardless of what happens, the Wayne legacy will live on and that in then end, what the Gothamites will remember of the Waynes is not the "playboy Bruce" persona that Bruce was doing before but the Bruce that wanted to change Gotham for the better.

[Just_Human]

Bruce will learn something about himself

That because of his pain and a spectrum of emotions, he didnt realize what impact he could have had


Growing pains.

In BB, he thinks that as Bruce Wayne, he can't inspire people unless he wears a mask.
As flesh and blood, he wouldnt have the same impact

In TDK, he thinks that a man who is just flesh and blood (Dent )is what he cant and will never be

In TDKR, he realizes that he can save Gotham as both Bruce Wayne and Batman

That he is mich more than a watchful protector and a silent guardian:
A leader


Gothamites, rich and poor alike, will be shaken out of their apathy for good, which means Mission accomplished for Bruce

He will hang the cowl

And in some way, I think he can thank Bane for that

[Metropolis_Man]

Originally Posted by Nevincer

What existing ones? The most similar ones I can think of were based off of a facet of the ending, or a newbie postulating their opinion on what they think should happen as it's own thread and users going off from there without any kind of structure or cohesion. I don't believe we've had a thread before that is both designed and focused on discussing the whole shebang, and if we did it was short lived just like all the others. I thought it was a travesty something like this was missing on page 1, and with the film so close I think it can endure in an official capacity as we'll all know the ending soon and be able to discuss it here.

Better this than necroing some crappy thread that got derailed by people bickering about each other's desires for the conclusion. There's no point for that kind of conflict here, it'll all soon be upon us.

I agree. I feel like this is one of the most relevant threads in the Bat area of the Hype forums. It's good to see what everyone thinks the significance of the previous movies will build upon until this last chapter. There have been so many good responses in here from everyone. Keep it up!

[Mandalore464]

Edit : Deleted

[Nevincer]

Just got time to read through most of this. Wow, some really thought provoking stuff to take away from MrWayne, Billy the Poet, Mandalore, NateHevens, and Jonnywhc. Even some of the briefer posts like kvz5 have made have been very insightful, after all no matter what happens I think Bruce and his mission is going to have to ultimately reach a carthasis and if it doesn't that could be the only disappointing ending IMO.

[rogue_agent]

I think Bruce's identity will be revealed and this will rekindle the Gothamites' admiration of the Wayne legacy. It won't just be about admiring Batman - it will be about Bruce Wayne.

The Journey of Bruce Wayne - initiated by his gradual proactiveness and his fiery desire to cause a storm in Gotham that would frighten the criminal underground and inspire the Gothamites' into fighting crime and corruption - will come to a bittersweet end. I think the end of Bruce's journey will pack an emotional punch that will solidify and hit home the fact that this is the end of Nolan's Dark Knight Legend.

[Batman jr.]

Originally Posted by Nevincer

What existing ones? The most similar ones I can think of were based off of a facet of the ending, or a newbie postulating their opinion on what they think should happen as it's own thread and users going off from there without any kind of structure or cohesion. I don't believe we've had a thread before that is both designed and focused on discussing the whole shebang, and if we did it was short lived just like all the others. I thought it was a travesty something like this was missing on page 1, and with the film so close I think it can endure in an official capacity as we'll all know the ending soon and be able to discuss it here.

Better this than necroing some crappy thread that got derailed by people bickering about each other's desires for the conclusion. There's no point for that kind of conflict here, it'll all soon be upon us.

Well, judging by The Guard's posts: it's very difficult for some people to be positive.

Anyway, I think Bruce will retire, not die. Batman will forever be the symbol he was GOING to be in the first movie already, so HE won: not Joker, not Bane (who dies too but Bats won't kill him directly). Bruce will be at peace and maybe he'll be at his parent's grave and saying something like: "I can finally rest now". The CGI ending could be... bats in the sky. The end...

BUT:

I do think there's a slight possibility that we'll see another Batmanmovie with Bale. Maybe not by Nolan, but I don't know... for some reason I've always been thinking that.

[The Guard]

Well, judging by The Guard's posts: it's very difficult for some people to be positive.

I don't see my statements in this thread as particularly negative.

I am both positive and negative. Positive about the things that work, and negative about the things that don't.

It could be worse. I could only see one or the other, as some posters do.

[Llama_Shepherd]

Personally, I'm thinking firstly: Bruce will survive. Batman may or may not appear to die, though he would be entirely willing to, but in any case, he'll be gone in a tangible way.

As for Gotham's fate, as well as Bruce's and Batman's symbol?

What I'm thinking is that Bruce, Gordon and Blake will become a new triumvirate. A better one than what was seen in The Dark Knight, where they each hid from each other and had their own agendas. Because it fell apart and only "papered over the cracks", this new one will have to be legitimate, and open, and I believe Batman's stand against Bane will be the force that galvanizes it, and the city.

It may seem cheesy, but Bruce would be a philanthropist, who, like his father, nearly bankrupts his business trying to repair the city after Bane's rule, Gordon would be Mayor and putting Bruce's money to good use, and Blake as Commissioner would keep the signal lit, showing the criminality in Gotham that there is nowhere to hide. Batman is everywhere.

[TinkerTailor]

I'm really interested to see how Nolan manages to credibly show all of Gotham's good uniting behind Batman. It appears that some of Bane's army are no more than civilians who have grown tired of the current situation in the city: economic downturns, and The Harvey Dent Act introducing a borderline police state (as per the Mayor's comments) being two examples. If these civilians align themselves with Bane because they're angry at how the city currently is, then what would make those civilians then move towards uniting behind Batman when he was the man that implemented all of this by covering up Dent's crimes. I suppose I'm intrigued to see how the population views Wayne, because at a distance, without personal knowledge of all Bruce's struggles that we as the audience know, then he has so far appeared to be a very selfish, typical billionaire playboy... the very person who has remained financially safe while Gotham suffers. In a way, disgruntled citizens could quite easily say: one of the catalysts leading us to this point is Batman covering up Dent's crimes, and while Gotham's normal populace suffered, the wealthy were protected, so Bruce/Batman was just protecting himself.

I know this isn't actually the case, but the public perception of Batman so far in these movies has hardly been a one that would give him the benefit of the doubt. I know that Bane himself will be a far worse option once Gotham is in ruins, but I doubt it's Nolan's intention to show Bruce's altruism as merely the lesser of two evils when compared to a monster such as Bane. It's at this point where we really need to know that Gotham truly realises Bruce is a hero.

There are so many thin lines to tread. This is probably more of a personal view, but I think evil, criminality and selfishness are inherent in any society, so the idea that Gotham could have a shining bright future where Batman is no longer needed at the end of the film is going to be very hard to pull off.

I think the argument that Bruce remaining as Batman is some kind of poor conclusion is as big a fallacy as the argument saying him retiring is a poor conclusion. However Nolan chooses to end it, it's all in the build up throughout the film as well as the execution of the ending itself. Bruce remaining as Batman, but also finding inner peace and facing the demons that have haunted him since the night his parents died could be wonderful, and satisfying, or it could be terrible depending on how it's done. Something similar could be said of the idea that Bruce reveals his identity to Gotham and then dies. When written down so starkly the second option has far more weight, I'll admit that.

Wow... I rambled.

[Batman jr.]

Originally Posted by TinkerTailor

I'm really interested to see how Nolan manages to credibly show all of Gotham's good uniting behind Batman. It appears that some of Bane's army are no more than civilians who have grown tired of the current situation in the city: economic downturns, and The Harvey Dent Act introducing a borderline police state (as per the Mayor's comments) being two examples. If these civilians align themselves with Bane because they're angry at how the city currently is, then what would make those civilians then move towards uniting behind Batman when he was the man that implemented all of this by covering up Dent's crimes. I suppose I'm intrigued to see how the population views Wayne, because at a distance, without personal knowledge of all Bruce's struggles that we as the audience know, then he has so far appeared to be a very selfish, typical billionaire playboy... the very person who has remained financially safe while Gotham suffers. In a way, disgruntled citizens could quite easily say: one of the catalysts leading us to this point is Batman covering up Dent's crimes, and while Gotham's normal populace suffered, the wealthy were protected, so Bruce/Batman was just protecting himself.

I know this isn't actually the case, but the public perception of Batman so far in these movies has hardly been a one that would give him the benefit of the doubt. I know that Bane himself will be a far worse option once Gotham is in ruins, but I doubt it's Nolan's intention to show Bruce's altruism as merely the lesser of two evils when compared to a monster such as Bane. It's at this point where we really need to know that Gotham truly realises Bruce is a hero.

There are so many thin lines to tread. This is probably more of a personal view, but I think evil, criminality and selfishness are inherent in any society, so the idea that Gotham could have a shining bright future where Batman is no longer needed at the end of the film is going to be very hard to pull off.

I think the argument that Bruce remaining as Batman is some kind of poor conclusion is as big a fallacy as the argument saying him retiring is a poor conclusion. However Nolan chooses to end it, it's all in the build up throughout the film as well as the execution of the ending itself. Bruce remaining as Batman, but also finding inner peace and facing the demons that have haunted him since the night his parents died could be wonderful, and satisfying, or it could be terrible depending on how it's done. Something similar could be said of the idea that Bruce reveals his identity to Gotham and then dies. When written down so starkly the second option has far more weight, I'll admit that.

Wow... I rambled.

Soldier. Spy.

Interesting post, "midnight rambler'.

[Bat]

What if Gotham isn't saved?

[Nevincer]

Originally Posted by Bat

What if Gotham isn't saved?

Not ruling anything out, but that would be a depressing end and leave Bruce's actions for naught.

[Batman jr.]

Originally Posted by Bat

What if Gotham isn't saved?

There are good people there.

[Nevincer]

Originally Posted by Batman jr.

BUT:

I do think there's a slight possibility that we'll see another Batmanmovie with Bale. Maybe not by Nolan, but I don't know... for some reason I've always been thinking that.

I don't see them really being able to pull it off, and there could potentially be a backlash from the fanbase as well if WB made that move.

[NateHevens]

Originally Posted by Mandalore464

Was it not confirmed that Bane puts him on the cane?

He has the cane at the beginning of the film, before Bane shows up.

If Bruce is still trying to overcome the grief of Rachel's loss, it seems pretty logic that he would have quit right after her death, or a few weeks after, and therefore was gone the full eight years.

Nolan's Batman is pretty much the quitter anyway. He spends TDK pondering over the day he'll have to hang up the cape, and drools all over the idea of Dent becoming a legal Batman instead of him. Rachel's death will give him a reason not to hang up, but only when he manages to complete his mourning period.

I don't think it's such a bad thing that if he really was gone for the full eight years, he will only have been Batman for a year and a few weeks total. That's a pretty long time for such an extreme way of life.

Maybe, but it doesn't work with the character.

Plus, as I always say, his fall with Dent cannot be the reason he's on a cane eight years later. I don't buy it.

As much as I hate the idea of Batman's identity being revealed, that particular theory could be made into something real good.

You have to remember... Nolan wrote a real Batman. No man in reality could keep up such a charade for his lifetime. It's not possible. It may be in comics, but not in real life, and while Nolan is using lots of technology that doesn't yet exist, not only is that technology plausible in the real world (some of it even being tested in or researched by the military today), but the whole story asks the question "what would the world of Batman be like if it happened in reality?"

Batman being unmasked actually fits with the story Nolan's telling very well. It seems to me that this is where Nolan is going.

[Carnotaur3]

Originally Posted by NateHevens

Plus, as I always say, his fall with Dent cannot be the reason he's on a cane eight years later. I don't buy it.

Injuries like that get worse over time, especially if you don't treat it well. And we all know how Bruce tries to treat his injuries. "Whenever you stitch yourself up, you do leave a bloody mess."

Besides, I don't get why anyone would scoff at a 20-30 foot fall as a way to explain a handicap of this nature.

[Happy Jack]

Originally Posted by Carnotaur3

Injuries like that get worse over time, especially if you don't treat it well. And we all know how Bruce tries to treat his injuries. "Whenever you stitch yourself up, you do leave a bloody mess."

Besides, I don't get why anyone would scoff at a 20-30 foot fall as a way to explain a handicap of this nature.

It's certainly possible and even likely, but it seems like a rather weak reason to me. His physical fall wasn't emphasized very much in the film and his limp when running from the cops wasn't too noticeable even though it was there.

My bigger question is actually what happens to the cane once Bruce comes back as Batman. Does he make a modification to the suit to make up for the injury?

[Sharkboy]

I'm in the camp that Bruce's identity will be revealed to the public, anyone who's seen Fritz Lang's Metropolis will understand why.

"The mediator between head and hands must be the heart!" and Bruce Wayne is that "heart".

[Nevincer]

Originally Posted by Happy Jack

My bigger question is actually what happens to the cane once Bruce comes back as Batman. Does he make a modification to the suit to make up for the injury?

This is also something I'm rather curious about.

[rogue_agent]

I think Bruce with Cane will be at least partly psychosomatic - more psychological rather than physical.

[Sharkboy]

Originally Posted by rogue_agent

I think Bruce with Cane will be at least partly psychosomatic - more psychological rather than physical.

This, it's either part of a cover, or a psychosomatic thing...his worn down mind makes him use a literal crutch, rather than his crutch with cape and cowl, I recall this line from DKR (as you should with this film)

This should be agony. I should be a mass of aching muscle — broken, spent, unable to move. And, were I an older man, I surely would... But I'm a man of 30 — of 20 again. The rain on my chest is a baptism. I'm born again.

Once he finally makes that choice, aided on by Bane and Gordons words in the hospital, he puts on the suit and feels like he's back to being a different man, the true man he is.

[mikey1974]

i keep going back to what the filmakers have said,how it sorta comes "full circle" to Batman Begins,and 1 thing keeps popping in my mind:

"If you make yourself more than just a man,and devote yourself to an ideal, then you become something else entirely. A LEGEND, Mr. Wayne."

all along ,yes,Bruce has been working to make Gotham better,but only in piecemeal,only going after the criminals and unjust. while not tackling the TRUE problem - that ALL of Gotham is corrupt! from the high-rollers down to the homeless,almost everyone is out to get what they can,and only cares for themselves. granted,now,there ARE exceptions - Alfred,Wayne himself, Rachel,Dent,Gordon - but there's an underlying problem with all of Gotham basically not caring.thye were happy to let Batman,and Gordon,and Dent clean up the problems for them.

BUT,once Bruce devotes himself to the ideal he should have in the 1st place - healing Gotham ,bringing the city,and ALL it's citizens, together for a greater good - then he will finally be more than just a man. he will finally be that Legend. The Legend that united Gotham to stand up for itself,and to inspire the good in everyone to not only stand up and FIGHT for their city,and take it back form the evil that has destroyed it, but to also care for each other,and work together for a better future,and a better city. this,i think,will be the legacy Bruce Wayne AND Batman will leave in the end,whether still alive or not at the end.

now,HOW this happens i'm not gonna speculate on,just that i do think he will unite the city in a way never before. hell,you can see some of that in the riot scenes, Batman,cops,and citizens fighting together against Bane,his henchmen,and the criminals let loose. good vs evil.

[rogue_agent]

Originally Posted by Sharkboy

This, it's either part of a cover, or a psychosomatic thing...his worn down mind makes him use a literal crutch, rather than his crutch with cape and cowl, I recall this line from DKR (as you should with this film)

This should be agony. I should be a mass of aching muscle — broken, spent, unable to move. And, were I an older man, I surely would... But I'm a man of 30 — of 20 again. The rain on my chest is a baptism. I'm born again.

Once he finally makes that choice, aided on by Bane and Gordons words in the hospital, he puts on the suit and feels like he's back to being a different man, the true man he is.

Yeah, you explained it better. I think it will be more psychological than physical, even the themes like Bruce using Batman to surpress his emotional pain, so when he finally retires due to peace time, all that emotional pain makes him reclusive. And Bane's mask surpresses physical pain. So the main hero will be more about emotional and a bit of physical too later on when he gets owned.