The Journey's Conclusion: The Fate of Gotham, the Wayne Legacy & Batman Symbol Thread

[Happy Jack]

Originally Posted by Sharkboy

This, it's either part of a cover, or a psychosomatic thing...his worn down mind makes him use a literal crutch, rather than his crutch with cape and cowl, I recall this line from DKR (as you should with this film)

This should be agony. I should be a mass of aching muscle — broken, spent, unable to move. And, were I an older man, I surely would... But I'm a man of 30 — of 20 again. The rain on my chest is a baptism. I'm born again.

Once he finally makes that choice, aided on by Bane and Gordons words in the hospital, he puts on the suit and feels like he's back to being a different man, the true man he is.

That's powerful.

[Sharkboy]

Originally Posted by rogue_agent

Yeah, you explained it better. I think it will be more psychological than physical, even the themes like Bruce using Batman to surpress his emotional pain, so when he finally retires due to peace time, all that emotional pain makes him reclusive. And Bane's mask surpresses physical pain. So the main hero will be more about emotional and a bit of physical too later on when he gets owned.

Yeah it definitely is the case, considering that Bane is a more literal representation of the theme of pain. His mask represses physical pain while Bruce's mask represses his emotional pain.

I think the first hour of the film will really tackle the meaning of Bruce's mask, and how much he needs it, it's going to be a lot more than just 40 minutes without Batman, it's going to build and build as gotham gets worse we are going to see how much Bruce needs and wants to put on this mask.

I can imagine that shot of the batsuit rising up in it's case (from the trailer) being the first time he suits up in the film, Bruce just going about it in his head for hours, walking naked (or semi i guess) to his cold cave realising he made it down there without using his cane, he's suddenly if magically physically fit, back to the man he was, and he finally suits up. Should be a hell of a moment.

[Cory]

I like this thread. I think Batman's identity will be revealed... the only problem I see there is no matter what the people think of him, he is an outlaw. But damn it, I would hate if the ending was him being arrested.

[CinematicESP]

Whatever happens to Bruce, I think he will share some sort of parallel with Bane. They both wear masks to quell pain. As far as we know, Bane can't survive without the mask. My guess is Batman's fate will either mirror that, and he will die as Batman, or what separates him from Bane is that he CAN survive without his mask, and will retire the Batman persona.

[mikey1974]

Originally Posted by rogue_agent

Yeah, you explained it better. I think it will be more psychological than physical, even the themes like Bruce using Batman to surpress his emotional pain, so when he finally retires due to peace time, all that emotional pain makes him reclusive. And Bane's mask surpresses physical pain. So the main hero will be more about emotional and a bit of physical too later on when he gets owned.

this is interesting too. Nolan talks about him finally having to get over the pain of his parent's death,and in many ways that WAS Batman, that little boy getting back at the criminal element that hurt him. but with as you said peace time in Gotham and Wayne retired from the cape and cowl,he's had nowhere to put that pain and anger,as it's quite obvious he still hasn't gotten over it. so it just festers,for all that time,til Bane shows up....that can actually be a disadvantage to Wayne. i won't say he goes out there " Half-cocked" , but perhaps he's not quite...shall we say "prepared",and is running more on emotion and pain rather than intellect,whereas Bane comes in with a meticulous plan already in place,primed and ready for The Dark Knight...

[Happy Jack]

Originally Posted by Sharkboy

I can imagine that shot of the batsuit rising up in it's case (from the trailer) being the first time he suits up in the film, Bruce just going about it in his head for hours, walking naked (or semi i guess) to his cold cave realising he made it down there without using his cane, he's suddenly if magically physically fit, back to the man he was, and he finally suits up. Should be a hell of a moment.

To then eventually get beaten down to hell by Bane. Rise and fall.

[Sharkboy]

Originally Posted by Happy Jack

To then eventually get beaten down to hell by Bane. Rise and fall.

Yep, it's because he's still using it as a crutch, as an anaesthetic for his pain, in turn he is the same anaesthetic for gothams pain. He's going around on some endless mission to wipe crime out by beating up criminals one by one and putting them in a box, a bastardization of Ra's work (ra's being the father of Batman so to speak) and completely ignoring the work Bruce's father Thomas did, in trying to aid the poor and desperate of gotham.

The comics are stuck at this point...they have to be because it's a continuing series but since Nolan is ending the story he's obviously decided to show a better way of ending criminality (one that actually works) and that is to follow his fathers footsteps in trying to heal the roots of it, helping the poor, but obviously that is just as futile...

[kvz5]

Originally Posted by Cory

I like this thread. I think Batman's identity will be revealed... the only problem I see there is no matter what the people think of him, he is an outlaw. But damn it, I would hate if the ending was him being arrested.

I think there can only be two approaches if his identity is revealed. Either he dies or he goes somewhere else with perhaps another identity (maybe even fake his death).

[Sharkboy]

Originally Posted by kvz5

I think there can only be two approaches if his identity is revealed. Either he dies or he goes somewhere else with perhaps another identity (maybe even fake his death).

I prefer the second option, if it's going to copy elements of DKR, it might as well copy my favourite aspect of it (the ending) and show bruce faking his death, and holed up somewhere with a league of new batman ready to safeguard the world.

[TinkerTailor]

Originally Posted by Cory

I like this thread. I think Batman's identity will be revealed... the only problem I see there is no matter what the people think of him, he is an outlaw. But damn it, I would hate if the ending was him being arrested.

I think a theme of this film is going to be people facing up to the truth of situations and taking personal responsibility for the state of things. With that in mind it would be interesting to see how this is approached.

Originally Posted by kvz5

I think there can only be two approaches if his identity is revealed. Either he dies or he goes somewhere else with perhaps another identity (maybe even fake his death).

There is a potential problem in the idea of Bruce faking his death, in that the film will already introduce the idea that peace built on a lie (Dent's nature and his death) is a brittle peace, that merely papers over the cracks rather than dealing with them. If his 'death' unites Gotham while he retires to another country, then the possibility of dissent could rise up again were the truth to be revealed.

[Sharkboy]

Originally Posted by TinkerTailor

There is a potential problem in the idea of Bruce faking his death, in that the film will already introduce the idea that peace built on a lie (Dent's nature and his death) is a brittle peace, that merely papers over the cracks rather than dealing with them. If his 'death' unites Gotham while he retires to another country, then the possibility of dissent could rise up again were the truth to be revealed.

I think the reveal of his identity unites Gotham, his death (fake or real) merely speeds up it's process. Harvey Dent ended up being a criminal, that takes away any reputation and love people had for him, Bruce Wayne is still batman...be he dead or alive, nothing changes the fact that he's still the rich spoilt kid who sacrificed 10 years of his life for the people of gotham. Also it's less about unifying gotham on a single martyr, but using it as an example for everyone to work towards a better gotham...truly inspiring people the way he meant to.

[rogue_agent]

Yeah, I think it will be just about finally succeeding in setting an example for others to derive strength from and become proactive in combating crime and corruption. I think anything more would be overly ambitious, at least in concept.

[TinkerTailor]

Originally Posted by Sharkboy

I think the reveal of his identity unites Gotham, his death (fake or real) merely speeds up it's process. Harvey Dent ended up being a criminal, that takes away any reputation and love people had for him, Bruce Wayne is still batman...be he dead or alive, nothing changes the fact that he's still the rich spoilt kid who sacrificed 10 years of his life for the people of gotham. Also it's less about unifying gotham on a single martyr, but using it as an example for everyone to work towards a better gotham...truly inspiring people the way he meant to.

It would need to be handled very well. Public opinion has always proven to be flakey around Batman, and it's certainly going to be anti-establishment and against the rich in TDKR. If Gotham unites behind this man who sacrificed everything, and then died in saving the city, then 5 years later they find out he's actually sunning himself up in Italy while they deal with the wreckage that his own actions put into place, I think quite a lot of people would be perturbed.

The world is too small for someone like Bruce Wayne to disappear

[Sharkboy]

Originally Posted by TinkerTailor

It would need to be handled very well. Public opinion has always proven to be flakey around Batman, and it's certainly going to be anti-establishment and against the rich in TDKR. If Gotham unites behind this man who sacrificed everything, and then died in saving the city, then 5 years later they find out he's actually sunning himself up in Italy while they deal with the wreckage that his own actions put into place, I think quite a lot of people would be perturbed.

It's not even about him dying, it's him starting something to save gotham, would they even care that he'd been found alive? no because things are better now, gotham has been rebuilt on a stronger foundation of unity between the two sides. That foundation isn't based on whether he lives or dies, it's based on the idea that he was batman this whole time. Him being dead or alive is irrelevant in the long run, if he fakes his death it will be certainly because he wouldn't be able to live any sort of life, crime fighting or playboy or philanthropist with the knowledge that he is batman, he'd have to go completely underground or on some tropical island somewhere to find some peace...or at least continue his crime fighting.

[NateHevens]

Originally Posted by Carnotaur3

Injuries like that get worse over time, especially if you don't treat it well. And we all know how Bruce tries to treat his injuries. "Whenever you stitch yourself up, you do leave a bloody mess."

Besides, I don't get why anyone would scoff at a 20-30 foot fall as a way to explain a handicap of this nature.

Because there are more elements to that fall that just the height.

The fact is, Batman didn't fall from a height of 20-30 feet. Dent was literally thrown off that height. Batman held on to a piece of wood sticking out from the ledge, before falling at a much slower speed feet-first. So the length of the fall was then shortened by Batman's height with his arm sticking up straight. The impact itself would have been minimized both by the armored Batsuit and Harvey's body, which Batman did fall partially on top of. So he didn't hit the ground anywhere near as hard as Harvey did.

What killed Harvey was not just the fall. He was already in horrible shape, not only because half his face and upper body had been burnt off, but because he had just before survived a car crash that killed Maroni and his driver. Add on to that the fact that Batman threw him off, which means his falling-pace was already quicker than a normal fall from that height would have been, and now you have what killed Harvey.

The fact is, Batman's fall simply was not as bad as Harvey's. Bruce was also in absolutely incredible shape... the kind of shape a lot of weight-lifters can only dream about. I could see Bruce Wayne needing perhaps a couple months to heel from that in total, but we also know that Batman "has no limits", as Bruce said in TDK. Chances are, if he did continue on for another year or three, then he probably only allowed himself the shortest amount of time out of action that he could get away with, which means he didn't heel properly.

I'm not saying that fall doesn't play a role in him needing the cane; I simply find it impossible to believe that it would be the only reason, considering we're talking about eight years later. It's amazing how many people don't seem to realize just how long eight years really is.

In reality, if you're on a cane because of an injury you suffered eight years prior, chances are you didn't get up from that injury when it happened, adrenaline be damned. Don't over-estimate the power of adrenaline.

Originally Posted by Happy Jack

It's certainly possible and even likely, but it seems like a rather weak reason to me. His physical fall wasn't emphasized very much in the film and his limp when running from the cops wasn't too noticeable even though it was there.

Exactly.

My bigger question is actually what happens to the cane once Bruce comes back as Batman. Does he make a modification to the suit to make up for the injury?

Despite my previous argument, I do have to agree with rogue, here:

Originally Posted by rogue_agent

I think Bruce with Cane will be at least partly psychosomatic - more psychological rather than physical.

If Bruce retires the cowl for even two years, he'll eventually have physically heeled to the point where the cane is not that important anymore. But he could still be suffering psychologically, meaning the cane is less of a physical crutch and more of a mental crutch.

Originally Posted by Sharkboy

This, it's either part of a cover, or a psychosomatic thing...his worn down mind makes him use a literal crutch, rather than his crutch with cape and cowl, I recall this line from DKR (as you should with this film)

This should be agony. I should be a mass of aching muscle — broken, spent, unable to move. And, were I an older man, I surely would... But I'm a man of 30 — of 20 again. The rain on my chest is a baptism. I'm born again.

Once he finally makes that choice, aided on by Bane and Gordons words in the hospital, he puts on the suit and feels like he's back to being a different man, the true man he is.

I imagine, after Bruce returns from the pit, this is exactly the kind of thing he'll be thinking.

Originally Posted by Cory

I like this thread. I think Batman's identity will be revealed... the only problem I see there is no matter what the people think of him, he is an outlaw. But damn it, I would hate if the ending was him being arrested.

I doubt he'd be arrested. If Bruce does obviously survive and doesn't bother to hide it from the people of Gotham, I wouldn't be surprised if the new Mayor gave Bruce a full pardon, declaring him, Gordon, Blake, Lucius and maybe even Selina heroes and giving them keys to the city or something like that, along with statues and so on.

[Sharkboy]

Originally Posted by NateHevens

I imagine, after Bruce returns from the pit, this is exactly the kind of thing he'll be thinking.

I meant it as his first endevor as batman in the film, I think by the time he gets out of the pit, he's already gotten himself back to his prime fitness physically as well as mentallly. First time round, no matter how good he feels in the suit, you can't just go back into that life after 8 years of inactivity. It's ring rust.

[TinkerTailor]

Originally Posted by Sharkboy

It's not even about him dying, it's him starting something to save gotham, would they even care that he'd been found alive? no because things are better now, gotham has been rebuilt on a stronger foundation of unity between the two sides. That foundation isn't based on whether he lives or dies, it's based on the idea that he was batman this whole time. Him being dead or alive is irrelevant in the long run, if he fakes his death it will be certainly because he wouldn't be able to live any sort of life, crime fighting or playboy or philanthropist with the knowledge that he is batman, he'd have to go completely underground or on some tropical island somewhere to find some peace...or at least continue his crime fighting.

I think that comes back to my initial post in this thread. Some people are going to be both against the things that Bruce Wayne supposedly stands for in this film, and what Batman supposedly stands for so the two being revealed as one and the same may intensify that hatred. I'm just really interested in how they're going to resolve that conflict in the fabric of Gotham's soul as it were.

There is the possibility that Gotham is going to be completely levelled by the conclusion of TDKR. In terms of Wayne's legacy is it not more heroic, and more in keeping with the nature of the character and the message of personal responsibility if Bruce were to remain for the rebuilding process? The symbol of Batman may be broken by the revelation of his identity, but would it not be an even greater example to the city to show that even as a man he is still incorruptible and unbeaten after all he's been through.

I'm not saying that one is my personal preference over the other; I know this thread isn't for that purpose, and I don't even have an opinion one way or the other, because a story is all in the telling, but I'm just really fascinated about all the ways that Nolan could potentially bring this together, and all the little potential bumps in the road he has to navigate.

[Sharkboy]

Thing is, there is so much potential in this film to have some of the richest thematic and character based material in a long time in terms of a continuation and a stand alone film, but on a technical level this film is dazzling me so far, from the cinematography, the score, imax, the visual effects, practical stunts etc etc

If Nolan can hit those scenes perfectly and the cast bring their A game...I don't think beating TDK's quality will be a question, it will be a certainty.

[TinkerTailor]

Originally Posted by Sharkboy

Thing is, there is so much potential in this film to have some of the richest thematic and character based material in a long time in terms of a continuation and a stand alone film, but on a technical level this film is dazzling me so far, from the cinematography, the score, imax, the visual effects, practical stunts etc etc

If Nolan can hit those scenes perfectly and the cast bring their A game...I don't think beating TDK's quality will be a question, it will be a certainty.

Completely agreed. The idea of a battle for Gotham's soul constantly bubbling away is one of my favourite things about Nolan's interpretation when compared to previous adaptations. It's kind of perfect that for his final film he's going to explore the ramifications of an all out civil war. I love how tied Bruce and Gotham's fates are at this point, and can't wait to see how he's going to leave both Bruce and the idea of the Wayne legacy that Alfred fought so hard for him to protect in BB (just watched it again today, and it really hit home).

[AnneFan]

Originally Posted by Cory

I like this thread. I think Batman's identity will be revealed... the only problem I see there is no matter what the people think of him, he is an outlaw. But damn it, I would hate if the ending was him being arrested.

Originally Posted by rogue_agent

I think Bruce's identity will be revealed and this will rekindle the Gothamites' admiration of the Wayne legacy. It won't just be about admiring Batman - it will be about Bruce Wayne.

I agree. I don't think faking his death makes sense after going through with the Dent cover-up after TDK. I am assuming he goes somewhere else afterwards and has a proper retirement. With a more sound peace of mind this time, compared to firing arrows and beating himself up. I can see him walking away more easier, and with a bigger sense of the job is done.

[JackWhite]

Originally Posted by Sharkboy

Thing is, there is so much potential in this film to have some of the richest thematic and character based material in a long time in terms of a continuation and a stand alone film, but on a technical level this film is dazzling me so far, from the cinematography, the score, imax, the visual effects, practical stunts etc etc

If Nolan can hit those scenes perfectly and the cast bring their A game...I don't think beating TDK's quality will be a question, it will be a certainty.

QFT.

I remember back in 2009/2010 thinking Batman would still be active at the start of, then called, Batman 3; and the Riddler would be the main villain. I had no idea Nolan would jump start the film 8 years in the future while having a retired/semi retired Batman. And when Bane was announced I knew the potential with the Knightfall storyline would be just huge for the films source material selection.

But yeah, I really didn't think TDKR was going to look this stunning when we finally saw the third trailer, MTV footage, and the Nokia trailer.

I'm still going into TDKR with expectations below TDK but higher than BB. I'm not doubting the greatness that this film could very well achieve but I just want to lower the bar of expectations a bit. I know Nolans Bat-Trilogy is something special, almost beyond comprehension. Not just because of what it has done for the comic book genre, but it's looking to be one of those great, unforgettable trilogy's. But with that being said, Spider-Man 3 ruined my life, so I want to keep myself in check until I see the film, lol.

[TDKR2012]

BRUCE WILL GO BACK TO OXFORD!!!!!!! he never finished his schooling!

[Karem-Knight]

Originally Posted by TDKR2012

BRUCE WILL GO BACK TO OXFORD!!!!!!! he never finished his schooling!

Wasn't it Princeton?

[Thoix]

Originally Posted by Karem-Knight

Wasn't it Princeton?

Doesn't matter, they didn't like him anyway.

[Nevincer]

Originally Posted by TDKR2012

BRUCE WILL GO BACK TO OXFORD!!!!!!! he never finished his schooling!

If you wouldn't mind please have the courtesy to refrain from these kinds of posts in the future, I'd like a standard of conduct and quality in this thread as opposed to the clutter of spam and nonsense that is present in most of the others. I hope that's not too much to ask.