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Old 07-04-2012, 12:46 PM   #101
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Default Re: The Lizard - How does he compare with Spidey's other onscreen adversaries?

I would say Venom and Lizard would be a good battle.

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Old 07-04-2012, 12:55 PM   #102
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Default Re: The Lizard - How does he compare with Spidey's other onscreen adversaries?

1. Doc Ock
2a. Green Goblin
2b. The Lizard
3. Goblin 2
4. The Sandman
5. Venom


The origin of Lizard definitely feel similar to Doc Ock. I wish they could've at least hinted in the film that the serum for cross breeding can alter your personality, because that's what happened to Dr. Connors after he injected himself with it. As soon as the antidote was administered he was a good guy again.

Sandman could've been a much better villain if there's more backstory given in the movie. I wish Venom wasn't in SM3 that totally shortchanged both villains and made the movie seemed rushed. Just by removing one of the villains would have made the movie 10x better.

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Old 07-04-2012, 03:22 PM   #103
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Default Re: The Lizard - How does he compare with Spidey's other onscreen adversaries?

I have to say that going into the movie (and listening to what others had to say) I was kind of worried about the Lizard. However, I thought that he was portrayed well, mostly because he was so frickin' CREEPY. I love Doc Ock in SM2, but let's be real here. HE had a wacky plan. Connors' plan made every bit as much sense. To me Connors/Lizard was a combination of GG and Ock. Here's what I liked about him and made him a worthy adversary:
-Carving Spidey like a turkey dinner
-The regeneration and tail dropping
-The way he loomed over Stacy before killing him
-The CGI was well done and he looked pretty good
-The way Connors was pretty much forced to become the Lizard to save all of his research
-Looking into Connors' mind, I can understand why he was the way he was. I liked him a lot better than any SM3 villain and much more threatening adversary than Green Goblin. I'd rank him just below the Doc

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Old 07-04-2012, 03:32 PM   #104
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Default Re: The Lizard - How does he compare with Spidey's other onscreen adversaries?

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I love Doc Ock in SM2, but let's be real here. HE had a wacky plan. Connors' plan made every bit as much sense.
Didn't Lizard want to turn everyone into Lizard people? How is that less wacky than Ock wanting to rebuild his life's work, which was a fusion reactor?

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Old 07-04-2012, 03:45 PM   #105
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Default Re: The Lizard - How does he compare with Spidey's other onscreen adversaries?

I don't know if this is the right place, but SM3 is on FX right now and I just stopped to watch a few scenes before turning it off. While it is no doubt a much worse movie than TASM, I saw the crane scene (Spidey saves Gwen) and the first two Sandman fights in the streets and then in the subway/sewer and...

It really kind of bummed me about about how underused Lizard was. Lizard is my favorite Spidey baddie and is much cooler than Sandman. But Webb really did not bring the scope and energy to the action scenes Raimi did, even in the bad SM3. I still think Lizard as a character is better than how Sandman and Venom were written, but visually the action could have been a lot better, in my opinion.

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Old 07-04-2012, 03:50 PM   #106
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Default Re: The Lizard - How does he compare with Spidey's other onscreen adversaries?

I think he’s right up there with the better Spider-Man villains. He’s more or less a blend of the better elements of Dafoe’s Goblin, Molina’s Doc Ock.

Conners had the mentorship aspect Ock and Osborn had, he had altruistic motives, and he also had the connection to Peter’s parents. And he wasn’t schlock like Sandman or purely revenge driven like Venom.

That, and Ifans gave as good a performance as any of the previous villains. He was appropriately subtle and tortured as Conners, as Molina was as Ock, and he was over the top and animalistic in a way that certainly matched up to Dafoe’s Goblin.

He has imperfections as a character. He’s brilliant. He has a troubled past. He’s had to make some sacrifices, and seen his work appropriated and perverted. He undergoes a true evolution into the Lizard, VS a partial one like the other villains. His ultimate plan was both horrifying and altruistic. And he has the “mind issues’ that Ock and Goblin had to contend with. His “accident’ Is relevant to the key themes of the Spider-Man mythos VS the “energy” issue Ock was given, and
his motivations aren’t just power or money, as Osborn’s were, or success and fame. Instead of being on top of the world like Osborn and Ock when the film opens, he’s at the end of his rope a bit. Lost.

He may not be as cool actionwise as Goblin, Ock and Sandman were, but he's every bit as interesting a character.

I think people overlooked a lot about him as a character in this film.

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Old 07-04-2012, 04:23 PM   #107
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Default Re: The Lizard - How does he compare with Spidey's other onscreen adversaries?

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Didn't Lizard want to turn everyone into Lizard people? How is that less wacky than Ock wanting to rebuild his life's work, which was a fusion reactor?
Haha no, it is no less wacky. However, there are some similarities. For both the culmination of their life's work consumes them and they feel that they are doing a great service to humanity.

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Old 07-04-2012, 04:32 PM   #108
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Default Re: The Lizard - How does he compare with Spidey's other onscreen adversaries?

Doc Ock believed he could use his experiment to create some sort of self sustaining nuclear power. He just couldn't get to work due to miscalculations. Connors went from trying to help people with disabilities to regenerate limbs to just turning every innocent being into an actual Lizard. That is by far more bizarre than any motive by any other villain in this franchise.

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Old 07-04-2012, 04:32 PM   #109
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Default Re: The Lizard - How does he compare with Spidey's other onscreen adversaries?

So now that I have finally seen TASM, here is how I rank the villains:

1. Doc Ock
2. Green Goblin
3. The Lizard
4. New Goblin
5. Sandman
6. Venom

Just as I predicted! Doc Ock was just so well done in Spider-Man 2, and seeing the tentacles come to life was just amazing. Alfred Molina did an excellent job. I chose Green Goblin for second place because I think he was done really well for the first movie. Willem Dafoe's acting was great as usual.

I chose the Lizard over all the Spider-Man 3 villains because... well I can't really say any of them were better than the Lizard now can I? New Goblin was hit over the head and conveniently knocked out for most of the movie to let the others get their screen time. Sandman was pointless. And I am not going to discuss Venom.

The Lizard was visually really cool, and I have no complaints about a lack of a snout. My complaints would be that all of his fight scenes were really short, and I feel like there is a missed opportunity with the character. We see him turn a SWAT team into Lizards, but they don't do anything. They turn into Lizards, and then turn back to people. That's all. They should have been fighting Spider-Man along with Connors at the top of Oscorp.

I only deducted points from the movie because of Lizard to be honest. I loved everything else, and give it a score of 9/10.

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Old 07-04-2012, 04:49 PM   #110
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Default Re: The Lizard - How does he compare with Spidey's other onscreen adversaries?

1. Dr. Octopus - By far the best in the entire series. The hospital scene is just a great way to set him up and made him an instant threat. I also LOVE the scene where he kidnaps Mary Jane "Bring me Spider-man or I'll peel the flesh off her bone"

2. Green Goblin - Another good villain, I wish he was a little more evil and not so sympathetic.

3. The Lizard - Meh. He could have been SO much better. The Lizard should be absolutely terrifying and yet I was left less than impressed

4. Sandman - Bad villain. No characterization, I did like the birth of sandman scene though but besides that he was worthless

5. Venom - Absolutely HORRIBLE character. Nothing more to say.

So overall, I'd say there were two good spidey villains and one okay one. Was it wise to use Lizard in the first movie? Not at all imo. One thing that makes lizard such a powerful character is our sympathy for Dr.Connors. When we don't get to know him much and don't see his personal life (such as his family), how are we expected to care? Also having his lab coat on for only two seconds served to dehumanize him even more. He could've been a great villain...oh well

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Old 07-04-2012, 05:42 PM   #111
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Default Re: The Lizard - How does he compare with Spidey's other onscreen adversaries?

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1. Dr. Octopus - By far the best in the entire series. The hospital scene is just a great way to set him up and made him an instant threat. I also LOVE the scene where he kidnaps Mary Jane "Bring me Spider-man or I'll peel the flesh off her bone"

2. Green Goblin - Another good villain, I wish he was a little more evil and not so sympathetic.

3. The Lizard - Meh. He could have been SO much better. The Lizard should be absolutely terrifying and yet I was left less than impressed

4. Sandman - Bad villain. No characterization, I did like the birth of sandman scene though but besides that he was worthless

5. Venom - Absolutely HORRIBLE character. Nothing more to say.

So overall, I'd say there were two good spidey villains and one okay one. Was it wise to use Lizard in the first movie? Not at all imo. One thing that makes lizard such a powerful character is our sympathy for Dr.Connors. When we don't get to know him much and don't see his personal life (such as his family), how are we expected to care? Also having his lab coat on for only two seconds served to dehumanize him even more. He could've been a great villain...oh well
How about New Goblin?

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Old 07-04-2012, 06:02 PM   #112
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Default Re: The Lizard - How does he compare with Spidey's other onscreen adversaries?

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How about New Goblin?
New Goblin was good for about the 5 or 6 minutes that he lasted but I didn't exactly view him as an actual villain.

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Old 07-04-2012, 06:04 PM   #113
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Default Re: The Lizard - How does he compare with Spidey's other onscreen adversaries?

Doc Ock wasn't that well developed either. In fact his backstory screentime might be just about the same the Lizard got. Doc Ocks was just paced a little better. Once they became their alter-egos, they were both pretty much motivated by those alternate personalities, and became one dimensional villans motivated by a single purpose. Again, the execution was different.

I love how during the school fight, The Lizard mixes those two chemicals togther in the lab, to flush Spider-Nan out from inside the wall. It shows that he was still intelligent and not some brain-less creature.

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Old 07-04-2012, 06:06 PM   #114
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Default Re: The Lizard - How does he compare with Spidey's other onscreen adversaries?

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Doc Ock wasn't that well developed either. In fact his backstory screentime might be just about the same the Lizard got. Doc Ocks was just paced a little better. Once they became their alter-egos, they were both pretty much motivated by those alternate personalities, and became one dimensional villans motivated by a single purpose. Again, the execution was different.

I love how during the school fight, The Lizard mixes those two chemicals togther in the lab, to flush Spider-Nan out from inside the wall. It shows that he was still intelligent and not some brain-less creature.
You do make an excellent point. The pacing of the Lizard was really his biggest flaw. However, I wish he did have a family like he did in the comic books.

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Old 07-04-2012, 06:15 PM   #115
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How about New Goblin?
I don't really consider him a villain. He had a vendetta against Spider-man for very understandable reasons. He never tried to hurt anyone besides Spider-man and at the end of the film he even became a hero.

If I had to rank him though, I guess right below sandman. I like Harry as a character but didn't like new goblin

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Old 07-04-2012, 06:25 PM   #116
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Default Re: The Lizard - How does he compare with Spidey's other onscreen adversaries?

I like the fact that Conner's is noble but fills his physical void by embracing something corruptive but Parker starts off selfish but fills his psychological void by embracing a greater purpose.

Yes SM2 uses these concepts but ASM better explores these voids with more potent symbolism. The Lizard ruins a good person like an addictive drug. Spider-man saves a selfish teen by being there for people with no one to save them like Uncle Ben did for Peter Parker.

Also the Lizard fights were sick. So intense I feared for Parker's safety every time.


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Old 07-04-2012, 06:39 PM   #117
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Default Re: The Lizard - How does he compare with Spidey's other onscreen adversaries?

Other than excluding his family, the biggest missed opportunity with the Lizard was hinting at but not showing his control of other reptiles. I would have preferred Lizzy as the king of the sewers with an entourage of mutant alligators & snakes. If they were going the crazy monster movie route than don't go halfway.

Poisoning the water supply to make everyone into his reptilian slave would have also made more sense in the context of the story and have been a huge shout out to the Lizard's first appearance in the swamps of Florida.


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Old 07-04-2012, 06:59 PM   #118
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Poisoning the water supply to make everyone into his reptilian slave would have also made more sense in the context of the story and have been a huge shout out to the Lizard's first appearance in the swamps of Florida.
I think involving Oscorp Tower was important symbolically since it was supposed represent the Tower of Babylon.

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Old 07-04-2012, 07:06 PM   #119
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I think involving Oscorp Tower was important symbolically since it was supposed represent the Tower of Babylon.
Oscorp Tower could have played a role with Lizard wanting more formula from his lab and led to a final confrontation in the sewers where Lizzy has home field advantage. He almost got Spidey the one time they fought there.

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Old 07-04-2012, 07:28 PM   #120
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Default Re: The Lizard - How does he compare with Spidey's other onscreen adversaries?

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I love how during the school fight, The Lizard mixes those two chemicals togther in the lab, to flush Spider-Nan out from inside the wall. It shows that he was still intelligent and not some brain-less creature.
I agree, cool moment.

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Old 07-04-2012, 07:32 PM   #121
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Default Re: The Lizard - How does he compare with Spidey's other onscreen adversaries?

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I think involving Oscorp Tower was important symbolically since it was supposed represent the Tower of Babylon.
What? How does Oscorp Tower represent the Tower of Babylon? There were not any inherent biblical themes in this movie as far as I know

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Old 07-04-2012, 07:41 PM   #122
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What? How does Oscorp Tower represent the Tower of Babylon? There were not any inherent biblical themes in this movie as far as I know
The movie isn't overly religious but Oscorp Tower represent the corruptive naturr of mankind's advancements.

Marc Webb makes the link between Oscorp Tower and the Tower of Babel.

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Old 07-04-2012, 07:50 PM   #123
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Default Re: The Lizard - How does he compare with Spidey's other onscreen adversaries?

Yeah I think Webb said OsCorp is like the Tower of Babel because it's the source of all evil in the movie.

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Old 07-04-2012, 09:22 PM   #124
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Default Re: The Lizard - How does he compare with Spidey's other onscreen adversaries?

I’ll never understand The Green Goblin being ranked second by fans. Dafoe’s performance range, Dafoe’s character itself, his pverall creepiness/scariness, his relevance and testing of Spider-Man, his ultimate aims, the various layers of his character, it just blows Ock away in my mind. His connection to the Parkers, to Mary Jane and Harry, his impact on Peter’s life, his son’s issues, all just far more compelling than Ock. There was just more to him. Ock has one very good scene with Peter, and then he’s a generic mad scientist/supervillain the rest of the fil until he redeems himself. The only real edge Ock had was the action sequences, thanks to his arms.

Quote:
Other than excluding his family, the biggest missed opportunity with the Lizard was hinting at but not showing his control of other reptiles. I would have preferred Lizzy as the king of the sewers with an entourage of mutant alligators & snakes. If they were going the crazy monster movie route than don't go halfway.
I’m pretty sure that the lizards on the webbing was The Lizard controlling them in a sense.

Quote:
Poisoning the water supply to make everyone into his reptilian slave would have also made more sense in the context of the story and have been a huge shout out to the Lizard's first appearance in the swamps of Florida.
Eh, the whole "Lizard army" would have been out of place when The Lizard himself wasn’t necessarily evil. He wanted to cure genetic imperfections, not enslave people or take over the world.

I also like that the Lizard wasn’t a one trick pony. He had multiple skills and methods of attack and defense. And
regeneration.

Oh, and I like the idea that we could potentially see him again.

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Old 07-04-2012, 10:21 PM   #125
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Default Re: The Lizard - How does he compare with Spidey's other onscreen adversaries?

I really do hope that the Lizard comes back for the third film or so. I could see why they killed off Green Goblin in SM1, since we had MJ instead of Gwen and they got the ball rolling on the Harry Osborn story. But Raimi didn't have to kill off Doc Ock, and they could have saved him again for future films, but the problem is that he did not plan too well for sequels.

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