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#226 | |
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It doesn't matter (to me) if there are hundreds of white heroes. The ones I'm at all interested in don't even equal the number of black heroes represented. And that number grows smaller each day with the advent of each new stupid gimmick that the geniuses at Marvel come up with. Actually, I'm pretty much down to Amazing just for the sake of being complete (I'm soon to complete the entire run - a lifetime endeavour, I assure you!) due to not really being turned on by ANYTHING Marvel puts out now. Again show me a hero whose powers don't have a glass ceiling (unless I'm still missing your meaning) - Spidey can only lift 10 tons, surely not in the elite for strength, he is smart but surely no Reed Richards (or T'challa for that matter)! You don't want a ceiling on black heroes' powers but you don't want them to be all-powerful...I can't think of how you can have one without the other. I'm not trying to be deliberately obtuse, I simply don't understand what you want the writers to do with these characters. Now as for behavior, I couldn't agree more that NO WAY T'challa steps down from his throne in Wakanda to hassle criminals in Hells Kitchen! I'm not saying it is beneath him but surely he and DD aren't THAT close! And again, how many other heroes are in the elite of being royalty? There is no glass ceiling there. The video is hilarious. But I gotta tell you, I loved old school Cage and Prowler. I had a ski mask when I was a kid that looked very similar to Prowler's and would put it on and I try my best to make a set of claws like Hobie did in ASM so I could climb trees with them! Didn't work out so well but I had a blast trying. And after I read ASM 172, I was out on my skateboard trying to do some stuff an 11 year old boy should NEVER try to do! I loved the color scheme on Falcon's costume when he was in Cap's comic - red and white on black I thought was extremely dynamic! Got a near mint first issue of Luke Cage and the Essential No. 1 (still gotta get the Iron Fist and Heroes for Hire Essentials). These are some of the coolest characters from my childhood! I just don't get what there is not to like about them! Again no hero always gets the best treatment. I've been so disappointed with Spidey these last 10 years or so - Clone saga, All the stuff with Norman and Gwen, the Spider Totem (which I guess they're still calling canon) - it just craps all over what I thought Spider-Man was - but it doesn't dim my enthusiasm for him as a character. I know who he is no matter how badly some hack tries to twist that. |
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#227 |
Still Incredible
Join Date: Aug 2004
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Very Interesting read on Black Panther and Black superhero films in general.
http://www.comicsalliance.com/2012/0...r-film-anyway/ |
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#228 | ||||||
Side-Kick
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I agree with you that there needs to be more diversity in the comic book industry, but it's easier said than done. For a long time, as the hip hop industry was becoming more mainstream, it was dominated by black males, and just like in comics, it was an uphill battle for minority artists to break into it. It ended up taking a black hip hop producer to open the doors for a white hip hop artist like Eminem to get his chance. Despite this one success story, I'm sure it is still an uphill battle for other minority artists to make it in the hip hop world. The same is likely true in traditionally white-dominated industries like the comic book industry. Quote:
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#229 | |
Cooler than your daddy.
Join Date: Apr 2009
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I think the best way to explain that glass ceiling is that I want to see some of the minority do things on the big stage. Black Panther did do some cool stuff to Iron Man's armor and hide warships in the New York harbor, but it only happened in his title. Outside of when Johns wrote Avengers briefly BP didn't get those cool moments in other comics except when McDuffie wrote FF for a little while. Same thing with when McDuffie wrote JLA. He had the black characters doing well, but it seemed to stop there with him. I'd like to see more of an expansion. More faces in the elite group rather than the same ones. That's more than a color issue since I can say this about some of my other favorites like Nightwing and Colossus. With minority characters I want more prominence. Like we've said before. T'Challa is a king, but it doesn't feel like it sometimes. He should be far too prominent to be in the background. Same thing with Mr. Terrific in DC, Storm in the X-Men, and Blue Beetle as well. They've done okay by Blue Beetle, but it would be nice to see him take a leap to the JLA or JSA. The stupid DCNU might hurt that. I want the Avengers to look like a rainbow. That sounds fruity and stuff, but I'm a sexual tyrannosaurus, so I can say it comfortably. By the way, I thought Spidey lifted 25 tons. He gets chumped out more than he should in the strength department. They show his speed well, but they really underrate his strength. It's all over the place. One minute he can barely lift a car, then the next he's throwing buses at the Hulk. You're right about no hero getting the best treatment. In fact I've been dissing Hudlin's run all up in this thread. The guy made it so that Wakanda has the cure to cancer, but they don't want to share it with the world. That's done the character a ton of harm because some people just can't get past that. It's hard to see someone as a hero that does that. It would be interesting if they wrote T'Challa like a morally indifferent guy, but all Hudlin did with that was basically say that Wakanda's balls are bigger than the rest of the world's. ![]()
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#230 | |||||||
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http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Killer_B At a young age, B along with several other children were gathered in order to select a tag partner for A. Out of all the children gathered, B was the only person able to successfully perform the Double Lariat with A. As such he was given the name "B", and A stated they would be brothers from that day on. Killer B is very proud of his own power and very proud of who he is. Like Naruto Uzumaki, who has great overconfidence, Killer B can be quite cocky and stubborn, especially in terms of his own strength, demanding respect from others and asks to be called "Lord Jinchūriki" (人柱力様, Jinchūriki-sama) and his tailed beast be called "Lord Eight-Tails" (八尾様, Hachibi-sama). Now get ready cuz I'm gettin ready to lay on ya why he's considered an example of racism against black people: B has a special way of expressing his pride through song, more specifically in rap-style and tends to use "Bakayarō! Konoyarō !" (「バカヤロー!コノヤロー!) when referring or speaking to others. He will even write his rhymes in the middle of a fight, or during an important meeting, even if they are no good, which is usually the case. This sometimes causes the people around him to become greatly annoyed by him. B doesn't respect anyone who would make fun of rap or his lyrics. I googled 'naruto+racism' and this is what came back - he's a rapper. Really? He sonds like a totally cool character who is treated with respect and honor but because they made him a rapper, it's racist? I hate this term but it fits: weak sauce. And another fiene example of finding racism where I argue none exists. Quote:
Here's another example: Poor George Lucas (not LITERALLY poor but you get my meaning) has bent over backwards more than any white man I know of to appease black people (giving Jackson a [gaudy-lookin] purple light saber, paying to make Red Tails out of his own pocket and then appologizing to black film makers if in making that movie he somehow hurt their careers [still don't get that one]) so it seems beyond believability that he would deliberately try to make a racist character yet this is what many claimed he did with Jarjar Binks. And I don't even see how anyone perceived that binks was some rip on black people anyway. Another example of finding racism where there is none. I guess when you're not the big company risking being stuck with the racist label, it's easy enough to brush it off. I mean, if they make a BP film and someone cries racism (and they WILL) you're only out the cost of a movie ticket, right? No one (hopefully) will accuse GOTG of racist undertnes because it doesn't deal with black characters. I am not saying that there hasn't been examples of racism against blacks in film or even comics but I think that that they've grown so accustomed to looking for i that they often see racism where there is none. That's what I think Disney is afraid of. |
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#231 | ||||
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I didn't feel like looking up the actual entry (going thru all my boxes of comics) but what is sited in this page is where I originally got my info. Now this was back when "The Official Index of the Marvel Universe" first came out years ago so they may have changed it since then. I'm old school you know. Case in point: http://www.comicvine.com/spider-man/...-man/92-23583/ Spider-Man is able to life 10 tons. Which is strong enough that he could lift a tank over his head or kill most villians with a single punch if he didn't hold back on his punches. After "The Other" story, Spider-Man's strength was increased to 25 tons, but was returned back to 10 tons after "One More Day". Quote:
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#232 | |
Infinity Ammo
Join Date: Feb 2005
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I'm probably going to get flamed like crazy for saying this but at times I feel like Black Panther and Wakanda goes to far into presenting a positive black idealised nation and people that it sometimes strays into being a little annoying. Like we cured cancer or we brought and own large amounts U.S debt because we are so advanced and smarter than everyone else. It seems like they are trying way too hard at times. If it was a different racial group writing a character like this people would say its racist, propaganda or condescending and arrogant. I think Black Panther should be a powerful leader and Wakanda super advanced but not to the point where it makes them seem like scumbags.
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#233 | |
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#234 | |
MYTH SMITH ∞!!!
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Indeed. This quote from Geoffrey Thorne in the comments sums it up nicely, I think. Especially the boldface section.
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"We're living in a world where we're having our rights taken away by giant corporations, and [fanboys] were cheering for another corporation to eventually take our rights away...because we'll get superhero movies!" --writer Brandon Easton on the Disney/Fox merger https://www.facebook.com/MythworldeMedia/ |
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#235 | ||
Professor of Power
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: In the Moment
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![]() The casting is very good, the only problem I would point out is that because they're all much smaller names, it inspires the idea of a lower-budget movie. Of course, that always has the potential to be awesome if they get 'lost' in the parts, but while BP is an awesome concept, if Thor or Hulk can't be sold purely on their own merits, I don't think BP can either. But the actual quality of the casting is great. If I were to step in as the proverbial marketing-minded producer, I would suggest upgrades for the parts of Ross, Monica Lynne and Klaw, though the tone of the casting is spot on. Storywise, the traveling has grown on me, but I wouldn't use two European locations. I think an Asian location would be a nice switch up and India is pretty easy to fake, honestly. While the jet setting idea is good, and a great way to show it's not just a black thing, I think using more than one Tuxedo scene would be pushing it too far from spy territory. He's a superhero, the vast majority of his action scenes should be in his superhero costume, and there's something kinda cool, at least to me, about showing up in African traditional clothing at a big chateau-type soiree. But overall, Klaw leaving Wakanda makes a lot of sense, and you can save the Wakanda being taken over type storyline for the sequel (and then Wakanda at War for the three-quel). Very nice. I like Lynne as CIA, especially if Ross is just state department, and Lynne is posing as an ordinary diplomat when in fact she's there to help protect Ross and get close to panther, but then he finds her out... adds a cool level to her. Then the singing thing can just be a moment that deepens her character. She could be a love interest that actually works as a character in her own right! Anything's possible! I also agree, a free running scene is a must. It's gotta be flyer than the one in Casino Royale, so it can't be man vs man, it's gotta be like, man vs helicopter with multiple people involved or some craziness like that.
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X-Men TV Show Ideas With a Ph.D in Metascience
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#236 | |
Professor of Power
Join Date: Jun 2011
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I see your point that white writers can feel caught in a catch 22, but that doesn't in anyway invalidate the claims set against them. They can genuinely be wrong two ways, that is possible. The truth is though, they can put forth the effort to learn to write black characters as diverse human beings, and many talented writers have done so and met with minimal criticism. Certainly Storm isn't a character who is criticized for... anything, really, except marrying BP. Luke Cage is accepted as a stereotype, and while it may not make him the most interesting character, his writers aren't maligned like BP's are. To say nothing of the plentiful black television and film characters that do not meet with racial criticism. Some writers have taken the time to learn and view black cultures as something positive and interesting, and others have simply written colorblind, and have met with success in either path. The issue with BP is that black culture is in many ways the defining aspect of his character and so maligning his character is perceived as maligning the black culture... and how can it not be, when there's nothing else about him other than being awesome and black (African specifically)? What other motivation is there to say Black Panther is difficult other than black culture being difficult? What other reason is there to not write/promote Black Panther other than one doesn't want to write/promote an African country? Now why it's motivated, we don't know. It's some conflagration of business and familiarity and subconscious prejudice, I suspect. But to say that the complaints aren't valid... or that it is typical of black characters? I'm not seeing that.
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#237 | ||
C'mon Son
Join Date: Oct 2008
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Yeah I was thinking instead of my original locations that it should be Wakanda to Cairo to Italy to Rio de Janeiro to NYC IN terms of casting, I realize that a lot of the people I chose arent big names but I figured if they get Denzel then that would be fine. Denzel is a big BO draw and having his name attatched to BP, along with it being a MArvel film, could really help with the BO. And I actually think keeping it lower budget (but not cheap) would help a lot Who would you cast Last edited by Blackman; 07-21-2012 at 08:16 PM. |
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#238 | |||||
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BUt for arguments sake, let's talk about 'diversity' among black characters in comics. T'challa is an African king, Cage is an ex-con turned PI, Mr. Terrific is a genius level intellect millionaire listed as 'third most intelligent person in th world', Rhodey (and Falcon I believe) are well-respected members of the armed forces, Storm one of the most powerful mutants worshipped as a goddess where she was from in Africa. Do those all sound the same? Is that not diversity? PLease tell me what would satisfy. Quote:
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My view is, even if someone wrote BP (or any black character) exactly the way you wanted them to be written, they still wouldn't be able to sustain a title just because there aren't enough black readers (plus however many white readers might be interested in reading them) to financially sustain such a title. This isn't racism, just simple mathematics. If you feel that every 'failed' attempt to write a black character is at least partially motivated by 'subconscious prejudice', I'm gonna say you have a dose of that yourself. |
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#239 | |
Infinity Ammo
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He started out a blaxploitation homage character but out grew those things over the years. I think Luke is a more positive down to earth black superhero. A guy who turned his back on crime as a teenager and tried to make a good life for himself after seeing the effects his criminal life was having on his family only to be framed by his best friend and sent to prison where he was beaten, racially abused and yet he didn't break or return to crime. Even though he was a hero for hire he didn't collect money alot of the time if he was helping people who really needed his help.
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#240 | |
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I'll say this is valid IF you can show me where white people accuse a black writer of writing a white character 'wrong' for racist reasons. This is something black writers just don't have to deal with. So, no, it isn't horse excrement.
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ONe thing maybe someone can clear up for me: I thought blaxploitation films were both made by black people and liked by black people (Foxy Brown, Shaft, etc.) but listening to some talk on here, it seems that they are looked on negatively by black people. Can someone clear that up for me? |
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#241 | |
Side-Kick
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Last edited by ShredderX; 07-22-2012 at 02:52 PM. Reason: spelling |
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#242 | |
Side-Kick
Join Date: Mar 2012
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I think some Black People get offended with these movies because these movies usually glorify or make the pimp, hustler, drug dealer the hero (even though the only movie I know which did this was Superfly, Black Ceaser and The Mack). Other than that, I love the genre. |
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#243 |
Infinity Ammo
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The convict part is what people focus on but the whole point was he was Carl Lucas/Luke Cage is innocent.
Cage was in juvie as a teenager a few times but he never served time in an adult prison because he quit his crime by the time he was in his late teens. Even in the comics Cage never used a weapon when he was in a gang instead he just used his fists. His gang only commited petty crime as well which in the comics they don't specify all that much other that he was a teenager, worked for the local crimelord. ![]() Thats what sucked for Cage he had turned his life around only to get thrown in prison anyway. He had a reason for being an angry black man at the beginning.
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#244 |
Infinity Ammo
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Blaxploitation were originally made to show black heroes. They were made and financed by black people aimed at a black audience but then when stuff like Shaft got sucessful people tried to cash in and thats when the genre went downhill fast.
To some people it was black empowerment which then descended into racist stereotyping. It mirrors Hip Hop in that way in some peoples eyes.
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#245 | |
Side-Kick
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#246 | |
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You, my friend, have risen above the petty need to complain about what you dont feel you're getting from one sourse and efficiently moved on to one that will give you what you desire. IMO, complaining never leads to any real solution. I bet you would be very successful as a business entrepreneur. It's that kind of rationale based on logic instead of emotion that leads to true breakthroughs! As to your other post, that is what always happens. To be honest, I am absolutely floored that the superhero movie genre has sustaned as long as it has with no real sign of weakening due to cheap knockoffs flooding the market. |
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#247 |
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Why is this the case?
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#248 | |
Side-Kick
Join Date: Mar 2012
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#249 |
Side-Kick
Join Date: Mar 2006
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Spider-Man,
A few things: -Black people are not monolithic. We don't all think the same or see the same things in the same way, which I think you can see on this thread and others on the website or others. And issues of what's positive and negative a lot of times when it comes to depictions of blacks can be boiled down to individual knowledge and tastes. -Regarding blaxploitation, it was not completely done by blacks or for blacks. Initially some of those films might have been, but I also think some of those early films, at least ones like Shaft, were viewed by blacks, whites, and others. And Hollywood made a lot of money off of these films. But I do think the genre overall was a mixed bag. I think some blacks revered them because they had never seen black men or women as heroes, as taking charge, as fighting against corrupt or oppressive whites or blacks, etc., and were willing to swallow the negative stereotypes that went along with it. But eventually, IMO, the stereotypical stuff outweighed the positives, similar to what has become of commercial hip hop, like Chamber-Music said. But also some blacks don't mind stereotypical depictions or have internalized stereotypical images after being fed a diet of them. Also, other blacks just don't invest that much thought into the movies and take them at a surface level. While others might enjoy some of the outrageous stuff that happened in some of those films or the sometime cool aesthetics, not to mention a lot of the great music that came from some of those soundtracks. We aren't monolithic. -I don't see what your deal is with 'complaining'. That's what almost everyone on SHH does at one point or another. Do you go into every thread and make this point that people shouldn't complain? While I do agree with ShredderX in terms of looking elsewhere if he/she is not satisfied with what they are getting from mainstream comics, I disagree with your assertion that complaining is a waste of time. Sometimes complaining does get the attention of the creators because obviously they want to put a product out there that people are going to support. So I think we should have people taking the mainstream comics to task in addition to seeking out alternatives. -Regarding Luke Cage, perhaps people focus on the convict aspect of Cage because of the proliferation of the image of the black convict in the mass media. I can definitely relate to why some people would be tired of seeing that image being the main image projected of black males or the black experience. I once heard a quote, which I can't remember verbatim, that said something like whites are judged by the best of their race but blacks are judged by the worst. And I think some blacks don't want that image projected onto themselves, their families, or their communities. Because I still do believe their is a tendency to lump blacks together. That's why we're talking about stop and frisk and racial profiling even though a black man sits in the White House. Further, I do think a Luke Cage film could be a profound one if it could be tied to issues of mass incarceration and the continuing racism in the criminal justice system. But Marvel would never touch those hot button issues, and they would take his wrongful conviction as an individual case and perhaps not part of a larger issue of how blacks have been mistreated in the criminal justice system since day one on this continent. If a Luke Cage film is made I do hope they make a strong point to remember that Cage was wrongly convicted. Personally I don't have a problem with a Luke Cage film especially if they make him a three dimensional character, give him so good villains, a love interest, and have a good story. I like variety and explorations of the black experience warts and all. Though the problem has been too much of a focus on the warts. Also, I could see why some blacks would take issue with a Luke Cage film getting put out first. Whereas you have all kinds of whites-billionaires, scientists, hot shot pilots, etc., getting the green light, the first major black character, since Blade (not counting Halle's Catwoman), is going to be an ex-con? Why not a teacher like Black Lightning, model like Vixen, a cop like Monica Rambeau, an architect/Marine like John Stewart, or student like Static? Better yet a king like T'Challa? Despite the limited number of black characters in the mainstream comics, there's still are ones that franchises could be built around that could expand imaginations of all races to the boundlessness of black possibility. Last edited by DarKush; 07-22-2012 at 07:55 PM. |
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#250 | |
MYTH SMITH ∞!!!
Join Date: May 2003
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Hilarious. First, how would you know that? Just in terms of comic writers I'll take Priest, McDuffie, Hudlin, etc. at their word when they say otherwise. Hell I've seen it myself over the years on various message boards.
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