EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 2

[Spider - Man]

Originally Posted by E-Man

There is a hyphen in E-Man. Just like another certain hero that spins webs any size and all that.

Let me explain what I mean by saying that black heroes are limited. You mentioned Batman. Good example there of a guy who doesn't have powers. But two things about him in relation to my argument.

1. He's not one of the very few representations of white heroes in comics, so him not having powers isn't a bad thing at all. There's still the rest of the Justice League originals who are white and insanely powerful next to him. With black people there aren't many representations, and their powers usually have some kind of glass ceiling on it. If you got the 6 minutes here is a funny video that talks about it a bit. It's not entirely accurate, but it's funny.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pB7DlcDto4Y

2. Batman frequently steps outside of his bounds. Even though he has no powers he always does things that he shouldn't because he's Batman. They do that whole Bat god thing where he does things alongside the JLA like it's nothing. Black Panther has done those types of things before, but Marvel never pushes it. It's always in the back corner of his own comic somewhere. I don't want him to do any stupid Batgod type **** that's ridiculous. That chicken wing on Silver Surfer was enough, but I do want him to actually do kingly stuff the way Dr. Doom does. Doom wouldn't be caught dead filling in for a superhero on vacation the way Black Panther did in Man Without Fear. Doom is a villain, but what about Black Bolt? Thor even? Black Panther has all that power in Wakanda, but he needed to test himself in freaking Hell's Kitchen?

I don't want all black characters to be all powerful. I just don't want that damn glass ceiling. Same thing with other races. All the uber powerful and elite comics characters are either white or some weird cosmic color.

Sorry, E-man, no disrespect intended, just a bad typer and usually in a hurry.

It doesn't matter (to me) if there are hundreds of white heroes. The ones I'm at all interested in don't even equal the number of black heroes represented. And that number grows smaller each day with the advent of each new stupid gimmick that the geniuses at Marvel come up with. Actually, I'm pretty much down to Amazing just for the sake of being complete (I'm soon to complete the entire run - a lifetime endeavour, I assure you!) due to not really being turned on by ANYTHING Marvel puts out now.

Again show me a hero whose powers don't have a glass ceiling (unless I'm still missing your meaning) - Spidey can only lift 10 tons, surely not in the elite for strength, he is smart but surely no Reed Richards (or T'challa for that matter)! You don't want a ceiling on black heroes' powers but you don't want them to be all-powerful...I can't think of how you can have one without the other. I'm not trying to be deliberately obtuse, I simply don't understand what you want the writers to do with these characters.

Now as for behavior, I couldn't agree more that NO WAY T'challa steps down from his throne in Wakanda to hassle criminals in Hells Kitchen! I'm not saying it is beneath him but surely he and DD aren't THAT close!

And again, how many other heroes are in the elite of being royalty? There is no glass ceiling there.

The video is hilarious. But I gotta tell you, I loved old school Cage and Prowler. I had a ski mask when I was a kid that looked very similar to Prowler's and would put it on and I try my best to make a set of claws like Hobie did in ASM so I could climb trees with them! Didn't work out so well but I had a blast trying. And after I read ASM 172, I was out on my skateboard trying to do some stuff an 11 year old boy should NEVER try to do! I loved the color scheme on Falcon's costume when he was in Cap's comic - red and white on black I thought was extremely dynamic! Got a near mint first issue of Luke Cage and the Essential No. 1 (still gotta get the Iron Fist and Heroes for Hire Essentials). These are some of the coolest characters from my childhood! I just don't get what there is not to like about them!

Again no hero always gets the best treatment. I've been so disappointed with Spidey these last 10 years or so - Clone saga, All the stuff with Norman and Gwen, the Spider Totem (which I guess they're still calling canon) - it just craps all over what I thought Spider-Man was - but it doesn't dim my enthusiasm for him as a character. I know who he is no matter how badly some hack tries to twist that.

[Incrediblejeff]

Very Interesting read on Black Panther and Black superhero films in general.

http://www.comicsalliance.com/2012/0...r-film-anyway/

[spideymouse]

Originally Posted by Spider - Man

Comics are a medium just like hiphop. Comics are created mostly by white guys where hiphop is created mostly by black people. They are both mediums that are enjoyed across many cultures and races. But whereas hiphop artists aren't asked to make changes or inclusions to appease any other ethnic or racial group, comic book creators are asked to do so and then get complaints when they don't do it just so. Honestly, the only way to get more diversity into comics is to get more diverse creators into comics. M&M raps the way he raps, he doesn't sound black and he makes his rap music his own. What if someone said to him, 'Man, you need to sound a little more black on that song.' Sounds silly, right? Yet, white writers get blasted because they can't quite get the black heroes they write just the way black readers want them to be.

Your comparison kind of breaks down. Creators are criticized for the contents of their work, and you can be sure that many black hip hop artists have been criticized for the contents of their work. And Eminem has absolutely gotten complaints about the contents of his. He raps about it a lot. So the question is, what are the contents of the works of white comic book creators? I'd say they are fictional worlds that are deliberately meant (especially by Marvel) to reflect the real world. While one could say "oh, racial disparity among superheroes actually parallels the inequality in the real world, so let's keep it that way!", should the fight against inequality not be fought in that fictional world as much as it should be fought in the real world? Or better yet, could a fictional world with superheroes to whom we look up actually set an example for our broken one?

I agree with you that there needs to be more diversity in the comic book industry, but it's easier said than done. For a long time, as the hip hop industry was becoming more mainstream, it was dominated by black males, and just like in comics, it was an uphill battle for minority artists to break into it. It ended up taking a black hip hop producer to open the doors for a white hip hop artist like Eminem to get his chance. Despite this one success story, I'm sure it is still an uphill battle for other minority artists to make it in the hip hop world. The same is likely true in traditionally white-dominated industries like the comic book industry.

Originally Posted by Spider - Man

You don;t see that eman said all black superheroes have a glass ceiling because they always come with a 'but' and I respond with Spidey as an example saying he has a but about EVERYTHING. He isn't the strongest, fastest, smartest, toughest...none of that. But no one complains that he has a glass ceiling.

What I still don't see is how your argument with E-Man relates to what I was talking about, which was that the black voice is not necessarily invalid just because other minorities are not as loud.

Originally Posted by Spider - Man

And how is he the 'everyman'? A science-genius orphan raised by his aunt and uncle (who gets murdered) is an 'everyman'? I'd say Kyle Raynor or Wally West would be much more of a quintessential 'everyman'. Heck, Johnny Storm has a more normal life (outside of his powers) than Peter.

You ask how he is the everyman, but you answer your question right above that: "he isn't the strongest, fastest, smartest, toughest...none of that." And I'll add to that how he has trouble with relationships, money, his family, doubts about himself, regrets, guilt, and yeah, tragedy like losing a loved one. He's really not that great at dealing with all of it, and that's what makes him so relatable to us. That's what makes him an everyman. You may say that those other characters' normal lives are even more "normal" than Peter's, but none of those guys have connected with their readers as much as Spider-Man has.

Originally Posted by Spider - Man

Then you and your friends were in the minority (no pun intended) because I see what it's really like at public schools today. There is basically self-segregation with very few exceptions.

And therefore my experience was not "what it's really like"? Or somehow this type of thing happening in real life is something to balk at? So yes, self-segregation happens at public schools. But what are you trying to say? That it's something to be encouraged or perpetuated?

Originally Posted by Spider - Man

And we live in a much more Orwellian society thatn most people will admit. And the broadcast media has realized what kind of power it truly wields in the last few years. And they paint pretty pictures of these groupings of kids you'd only find in fantasy land (or at your school I suppose) but the reality is they'll have to get more sinister with their methods because what they're showing ain't having the effect they wish it would. I'm not saying it's a bad thing. On the contrary I get a chuckle every time I see such an example.

I can see that you do see what's wrong with the world, but it seems like you're arguing that we accept it and do nothing about it except criticize people who do complain about it.

Originally Posted by Spider - Man

Exactly my point. Possibility? Try certainty. I guess you chose to ignore the post I referred you to above by phantom x. That's nothing compared to what is coming with the release of a BP film.

And that's the way it goes. Initial elation then preemptive complaining.

Initial elation then preemptive complaining AND preemptive excitement/optimism. Marvel Studios has already made several movies that were considered big gambles at the time: making an Iron Man movie (an unknown pre-2008) and casting RDJ as Tony Stark; making a Thor movie (even lesser known than Iron Man); making an Avengers movie. And they've all paid off. They are continuing to roll the dice with Ant-Man and Guardians of the Galaxy, and a hugely ambitious crossover event with Thanos in the future. Yes, the risks, the criticisms will be there, but if there's a studio that I believe would have enough faith in their properties and roll the dice on a Black Panther movie, it would be Marvel Studios.

[E-Man]

Originally Posted by Spider - Man

Sorry, E-man, no disrespect intended, just a bad typer and usually in a hurry.

It doesn't matter (to me) if there are hundreds of white heroes. The ones I'm at all interested in don't even equal the number of black heroes represented. And that number grows smaller each day with the advent of each new stupid gimmick that the geniuses at Marvel come up with. Actually, I'm pretty much down to Amazing just for the sake of being complete (I'm soon to complete the entire run - a lifetime endeavour, I assure you!) due to not really being turned on by ANYTHING Marvel puts out now.

Again show me a hero whose powers don't have a glass ceiling (unless I'm still missing your meaning) - Spidey can only lift 10 tons, surely not in the elite for strength, he is smart but surely no Reed Richards (or T'challa for that matter)! You don't want a ceiling on black heroes' powers but you don't want them to be all-powerful...I can't think of how you can have one without the other. I'm not trying to be deliberately obtuse, I simply don't understand what you want the writers to do with these characters.

Now as for behavior, I couldn't agree more that NO WAY T'challa steps down from his throne in Wakanda to hassle criminals in Hells Kitchen! I'm not saying it is beneath him but surely he and DD aren't THAT close!

And again, how many other heroes are in the elite of being royalty? There is no glass ceiling there.

The video is hilarious. But I gotta tell you, I loved old school Cage and Prowler. I had a ski mask when I was a kid that looked very similar to Prowler's and would put it on and I try my best to make a set of claws like Hobie did in ASM so I could climb trees with them! Didn't work out so well but I had a blast trying. And after I read ASM 172, I was out on my skateboard trying to do some stuff an 11 year old boy should NEVER try to do! I loved the color scheme on Falcon's costume when he was in Cap's comic - red and white on black I thought was extremely dynamic! Got a near mint first issue of Luke Cage and the Essential No. 1 (still gotta get the Iron Fist and Heroes for Hire Essentials). These are some of the coolest characters from my childhood! I just don't get what there is not to like about them!

Again no hero always gets the best treatment. I've been so disappointed with Spidey these last 10 years or so - Clone saga, All the stuff with Norman and Gwen, the Spider Totem (which I guess they're still calling canon) - it just craps all over what I thought Spider-Man was - but it doesn't dim my enthusiasm for him as a character. I know who he is no matter how badly some hack tries to twist that.

I think the best way to explain that glass ceiling is that I want to see some of the minority do things on the big stage. Black Panther did do some cool stuff to Iron Man's armor and hide warships in the New York harbor, but it only happened in his title. Outside of when Johns wrote Avengers briefly BP didn't get those cool moments in other comics except when McDuffie wrote FF for a little while. Same thing with when McDuffie wrote JLA. He had the black characters doing well, but it seemed to stop there with him. I'd like to see more of an expansion. More faces in the elite group rather than the same ones. That's more than a color issue since I can say this about some of my other favorites like Nightwing and Colossus.

With minority characters I want more prominence. Like we've said before. T'Challa is a king, but it doesn't feel like it sometimes. He should be far too prominent to be in the background. Same thing with Mr. Terrific in DC, Storm in the X-Men, and Blue Beetle as well. They've done okay by Blue Beetle, but it would be nice to see him take a leap to the JLA or JSA. The stupid DCNU might hurt that. I want the Avengers to look like a rainbow. That sounds fruity and stuff, but I'm a sexual tyrannosaurus, so I can say it comfortably.


By the way, I thought Spidey lifted 25 tons. He gets chumped out more than he should in the strength department. They show his speed well, but they really underrate his strength. It's all over the place. One minute he can barely lift a car, then the next he's throwing buses at the Hulk.

You're right about no hero getting the best treatment. In fact I've been dissing Hudlin's run all up in this thread. The guy made it so that Wakanda has the cure to cancer, but they don't want to share it with the world. That's done the character a ton of harm because some people just can't get past that. It's hard to see someone as a hero that does that. It would be interesting if they wrote T'Challa like a morally indifferent guy, but all Hudlin did with that was basically say that Wakanda's balls are bigger than the rest of the world's.

[Spider - Man]

Originally Posted by spideymouse

Your comparison kind of breaks down. Creators are criticized for the contents of their work, and you can be sure that many black hip hop artists have been criticized for the contents of their work. And Eminem has absolutely gotten complaints about the contents of his. He raps about it a lot. So the question is, what are the contents of the works of white comic book creators? I'd say they are fictional worlds that are deliberately meant (especially by Marvel) to reflect the real world. While one could say "oh, racial disparity among superheroes actually parallels the inequality in the real world, so let's keep it that way!", should the fight against inequality not be fought in that fictional world as much as it should be fought in the real world? Or better yet, could a fictional world with superheroes to whom we look up actually set an example for our broken one?

They get criticized for the offensive language which is actually one of the things that draws a lot of people to it. I doubt you can find an example of someone asking for it to be altered to better suit another racial or cultural group or to be more 'inclusive'. And no we should never stop fighting against it but I have no doubt it will always be there. As I aid earlier, at my son's school before he graduated, in the cafeteria, there were tables with black kids, tables with white kids and tables with Latino kids. There were a few exceptions but this was not because they were forced to be that way. The kids did this of their own choice. So you may think that you can show some commercials of kids all mixed together or keep 'fighting' to make it otherwise but as of right now, from what I can see, it isn't working.

Originally Posted by spideymouse

I agree with you that there needs to be more diversity in the comic book industry, but it's easier said than done. For a long time, as the hip hop industry was becoming more mainstream, it was dominated by black males, and just like in comics, it was an uphill battle for minority artists to break into it. It ended up taking a black hip hop producer to open the doors for a white hip hop artist like Eminem to get his chance. Despite this one success story, I'm sure it is still an uphill battle for other minority artists to make it in the hip hop world. The same is likely true in traditionally white-dominated industries like the comic book industry.

Yeah probably still an uphill battle considering there's, you know, still only one white rapper. I'd argue there's more black representation in comics than white representation in hiphop music yet I seem to hear more complaints about the lack of black representation in comics. That seems to be a disparity to me. Do you see it otherwise?

Originally Posted by spideymouse

What I still don't see is how your argument with E-Man relates to what I was talking about, which was that the black voice is not necessarily invalid just because other minorities are not as loud.

My point was that what you hear most concerning black characters is complaints. Are you saying they're all valid? Here's the challenge to the white writer writing a black character: if they include ANY black stereotype (black street vernacular, spouting Malcolm X, etc.) you hear complaints about that but if you remove all the stereotypes, you hear complaints that the character isn't 'black enough'. HOw can they win? You telling me these are valid complaints? And I gave other examples to show that I didn't think E-man's complaints were valid. My point is that where there seems to be a lack of complaints from racial/ethnic groups with more right to complain, there seems to be an over abundance of complaints about black characters that I just don't think have legitimate foundation. That is a disparity, something I thought you were against.

Originally Posted by spideymouse

You ask how he is the everyman, but you answer your question right above that: "he isn't the strongest, fastest, smartest, toughest...none of that." And I'll add to that how he has trouble with relationships, money, his family, doubts about himself, regrets, guilt, and yeah, tragedy like losing a loved one. He's really not that great at dealing with all of it, and that's what makes him so relatable to us. That's what makes him an everyman. You may say that those other characters' normal lives are even more "normal" than Peter's, but none of those guys have connected with their readers as much as Spider-Man has.

And yet if he was a black character, he would be 'getting dissed' for not being the elite in any of those things. What character HASN'T lost a loved one, had trouble with a relationships, had doubts about themselves? I'd say if Spidey has connected more, t is due the writing precedent that was set by Stan and Steve and faithfully carried on long enough to stick. I don't think if I was just starting to read Spidey today as a kid, I would feel nearly the affinity I felt for him when I first read him in the 70s.

Originally Posted by spideymouse

And therefore my experience was not "what it's really like"? Or somehow this type of thing happening in real life is something to balk at? So yes, self-segregation happens at public schools. But what are you trying to say? That it's something to be encouraged or perpetuated?

Well you left off the rest of my quote which is 'at public schools today'. I wasn't aware that your school experience was going on as we speak but rather you made it sound as if it were in the past tense ('my groups of friends in high school were pretty diverse' and even above 'was not' ) but I'll admit that maybe what I see isnt the norm. Still doesn't change that it exists IN SPITE of the massive effort to make it otherwise.

Originally Posted by spideymouse

I can see that you do see what's wrong with the world, but it seems like you're arguing that we accept it and do nothing about it except criticize people who do complain about it.

I criticize where I perceive complaining that no solution will satisfy. Again how can a black characer be portrayed as 'black enough' without any stereotype? YOu know I went and looked at some of Cosmic's examples of racism against black people in media. Do yu know anything about Killer B from Naruto? Let me enlighten you:

http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Killer_B

At a young age, B along with several other children were gathered in order to select a tag partner for A. Out of all the children gathered, B was the only person able to successfully perform the Double Lariat with A. As such he was given the name "B", and A stated they would be brothers from that day on.

Killer B is very proud of his own power and very proud of who he is. Like Naruto Uzumaki, who has great overconfidence, Killer B can be quite cocky and stubborn, especially in terms of his own strength, demanding respect from others and asks to be called "Lord Jinchūriki" (人柱力様, Jinchūriki-sama) and his tailed beast be called "Lord Eight-Tails" (八尾様, Hachibi-sama).

Now get ready cuz I'm gettin ready to lay on ya why he's considered an example of racism against black people:

B has a special way of expressing his pride through song, more specifically in rap-style and tends to use "Bakayarō! Konoyarō !" (「バカヤロー!コノヤロー!) when referring or speaking to others. He will even write his rhymes in the middle of a fight, or during an important meeting, even if they are no good, which is usually the case. This sometimes causes the people around him to become greatly annoyed by him. B doesn't respect anyone who would make fun of rap or his lyrics.

I googled 'naruto+racism' and this is what came back - he's a rapper. Really? He sonds like a totally cool character who is treated with respect and honor but because they made him a rapper, it's racist? I hate this term but it fits: weak sauce. And another fiene example of finding racism where I argue none exists.

Originally Posted by spideymouse

Initial elation then preemptive complaining AND preemptive excitement/optimism. Marvel Studios has already made several movies that were considered big gambles at the time: making an Iron Man movie (an unknown pre-2008) and casting RDJ as Tony Stark; making a Thor movie (even lesser known than Iron Man); making an Avengers movie. And they've all paid off. They are continuing to roll the dice with Ant-Man and Guardians of the Galaxy, and a hugely ambitious crossover event with Thanos in the future. Yes, the risks, the criticisms will be there, but if there's a studio that I believe would have enough faith in their properties and roll the dice on a Black Panther movie, it would be Marvel Studios.

sigh* You know, there are even examples I have pointed to you in this very thread of the kind of stuff that'll be spouted if a BP film is made. I've pointed you to phantom x's post multiple times without any comment from you. Read the article that incrediblejeff links in his post and read some of the comments below it.

Here's another example: Poor George Lucas (not LITERALLY poor but you get my meaning) has bent over backwards more than any white man I know of to appease black people (giving Jackson a [gaudy-lookin] purple light saber, paying to make Red Tails out of his own pocket and then appologizing to black film makers if in making that movie he somehow hurt their careers [still don't get that one]) so it seems beyond believability that he would deliberately try to make a racist character yet this is what many claimed he did with Jarjar Binks. And I don't even see how anyone perceived that binks was some rip on black people anyway. Another example of finding racism where there is none.


I guess when you're not the big company risking being stuck with the racist label, it's easy enough to brush it off. I mean, if they make a BP film and someone cries racism (and they WILL) you're only out the cost of a movie ticket, right? No one (hopefully) will accuse GOTG of racist undertnes because it doesn't deal with black characters. I am not saying that there hasn't been examples of racism against blacks in film or even comics but I think that that they've grown so accustomed to looking for i that they often see racism where there is none. That's what I think Disney is afraid of.

[Spider - Man]

Originally Posted by E-Man

I think the best way to explain that glass ceiling is that I want to see some of the minority do things on the big stage. Black Panther did do some cool stuff to Iron Man's armor and hide warships in the New York harbor, but it only happened in his title. Outside of when Johns wrote Avengers briefly BP didn't get those cool moments in other comics except when McDuffie wrote FF for a little while. Same thing with when McDuffie wrote JLA. He had the black characters doing well, but it seemed to stop there with him. I'd like to see more of an expansion. More faces in the elite group rather than the same ones. That's more than a color issue since I can say this about some of my other favorites like Nightwing and Colossus.

With minority characters I want more prominence. Like we've said before. T'Challa is a king, but it doesn't feel like it sometimes. He should be far too prominent to be in the background. Same thing with Mr. Terrific in DC, Storm in the X-Men, and Blue Beetle as well. They've done okay by Blue Beetle, but it would be nice to see him take a leap to the JLA or JSA. The stupid DCNU might hurt that.

As I said before, I think the only answer is to have black writers handle black characters. Maybe there will still be complaints (just like with any character) but at least there won't be the uderlying thought that they were given a glas ceiling or not made prominent enough just because of their skin color.

Originally Posted by E-Man

I want the Avengers to look like a rainbow. That sounds fruity and stuff, but I'm a sexual tyrannosaurus, so I can say it comfortably.

There's conflcting schools on trex: one that he was a predator and another that he was a scavenger. So are you a sexual predator or a sexual scavenger. Either way, probably best you only admit that as a faceless poster on the internet! j/k. If you say so, man. You would certainly be an anomaly: a sexual tyrannosaur who hangs out on a comic book forum (they do say reading comics builds testosterone)!

Originally Posted by E-Man

By the way, I thought Spidey lifted 25 tons. He gets chumped out more than he should in the strength department. They show his speed well, but they really underrate his strength. It's all over the place. One minute he can barely lift a car, then the next he's throwing buses at the Hulk.

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/in...4144821AAydYJf

I didn't feel like looking up the actual entry (going thru all my boxes of comics) but what is sited in this page is where I originally got my info. Now this was back when "The Official Index of the Marvel Universe" first came out years ago so they may have changed it since then. I'm old school you know.

Case in point:
http://www.comicvine.com/spider-man/...-man/92-23583/
Spider-Man is able to life 10 tons. Which is strong enough that he could lift a tank over his head or kill most villians with a single punch if he didn't hold back on his punches. After "The Other" story, Spider-Man's strength was increased to 25 tons, but was returned back to 10 tons after "One More Day".

Originally Posted by E-Man

You're right about no hero getting the best treatment. In fact I've been dissing Hudlin's run all up in this thread. The guy made it so that Wakanda has the cure to cancer, but they don't want to share it with the world. That's done the character a ton of harm because some people just can't get past that. It's hard to see someone as a hero that does that. It would be interesting if they wrote T'Challa like a morally indifferent guy, but all Hudlin did with that was basically say that Wakanda's balls are bigger than the rest of the world's.

I didn't read Hudlin's run, but I can't imagine making an Africa king more 'street' to appeal to a more amrican black audience. And of equal importance in terms of the context of the current discussion, do you think if a white writer had done this there would have been MORE complaints? If so, why?

[chamber-music]

Originally Posted by E-Man

You're right about no hero getting the best treatment. In fact I've been dissing Hudlin's run all up in this thread. The guy made it so that Wakanda has the cure to cancer, but they don't want to share it with the world. That's done the character a ton of harm because some people just can't get past that. It's hard to see someone as a hero that does that. It would be interesting if they wrote T'Challa like a morally indifferent guy, but all Hudlin did with that was basically say that Wakanda's balls are bigger than the rest of the world's.

I agree.

I'm probably going to get flamed like crazy for saying this but at times I feel like Black Panther and Wakanda goes to far into presenting a positive black idealised nation and people that it sometimes strays into being a little annoying.

Like we cured cancer or we brought and own large amounts U.S debt because we are so advanced and smarter than everyone else. It seems like they are trying way too hard at times. If it was a different racial group writing a character like this people would say its racist, propaganda or condescending and arrogant.

I think Black Panther should be a powerful leader and Wakanda super advanced but not to the point where it makes them seem like scumbags.

[D.P.]

Originally Posted by Incrediblejeff

Very Interesting read on Black Panther and Black superhero films in general.

http://www.comicsalliance.com/2012/0...r-film-anyway/

I read this, everyone else should as well.

[RockSP]

Originally Posted by D.P.

I read this, everyone else should as well.

Indeed. This quote from Geoffrey Thorne in the comments sums it up nicely, I think. Especially the boldface section.

Originally Posted by Geoffrey Thorne

No. The writer's job is not to figure out the geopolitics in this case. Kirby and Lee, Hudlin and, of course, Priest, have given any writer of the Panther decades of interesting political stuff to choose from. Cake walk. Hell, it's a cakewalk on its way to another cakewalk.

The Wakandas (Wakandans) are a unique tribal group having kept themselves clear of outsiders since pre-Roman times and, possibly, since pre-civilization. So, again, no need to worry about local languages, religions, tribes, etc. Wakanda is as African as Gotham and Metropolis are American.

Wakanda doesn't give a damn about the rest of Africa or the rest of the world and that is the jump off point. They consider themselves (and with considerable evidence to support the claim) to be superior to the rest of us. Sort of like Paradise Island. Only with black people instead of scantily clad hot chicks.

So what happens when a prince, obsessed with equality and the outside world, breaks with tradition and decides to pitch in and help? I don't know but the model worked well enough with Iron Man and I hear there's a Bat franchise closing up about a prince who is trying to help as well.

nope. no matter which route you take it circles back to the focus of the film being about a hyper capable, truly heroic black man who is not an ex-con, ex-drunk or ex-drug addict. Why should such a character be at all controversial. 90% of black men fall into that category. More, probably.

As for a white writer being "worried" about blowback for writing a black character poorly, that dodge should be put to rest today because it's horse excrement.

1) I'm a black writer and I spend a good portion of my time writing white characters. people pay me lots of money to do it and I think I do it pretty well. Why? Because I just write characters. That's my job. Write people. And it would be the job of any screenwriter assigned to write the Black Panther, whatever their gender or ethnicity, to do the same. If they can't, they shouldn't claim the job title. I wonder how many gay writers out there are currently writing exclusively straight characters? How many women are writing mostly men?

2) While I'd prefer a black writer write the Black Panther, as I said, I live in the real world and I know the likelihood of that is close to zero. So. Get Bendis. Get Aaron Sorkin. Get David Goyer. Get John Rogers. There are a lot of white writers, those who actually know what the job is and can actually do it, who could shoulder this project. If they need a list I can whip one up for them. And one of black writers who can do it too. Real writers don't have this "problem."

There is simply no business, social or moral justification for the policy adopted by Marvel on this score as they have stated it. And their explanation is both depressing and insulting to the intelligence of anyone in their audience with a brain. Marvel's answer should have been, "We're working on it."

Even if they're not.

[DrCosmic]

Originally Posted by Phantom X

Here's a REAL conversation I had with a buddy today:

Me: Hey, I hear they're finally gonna make that Black Panther superhero movie!

Anthony: So what's that about?

Me: An African king from an advanced society who also a superhero. Cool huh?

Anthony: Yeah, I'd like to see that. So what's gonna happen in it?

Me: Not sure but I think he's going to be fighting the Man-Ape.

Anthony: Man-Ape!? The hell is that?

Me: Some angry militant African in a monkey suit who worships the great white gorilla... Hey, where you goin?

Anthony: I'm gonna call the NAACP. We gotta boycott this $#it!!

Yeah, using Man-Ape would be a severe mistake, at least, calling him Man-Ape would be.

Originally Posted by Blackman

Just some ideas I have for BP

For director I don't know who I'd chose. The top 2 choices going through my head are Daniel Espinosa (he directed Safe House). He really can make some nice gritty action, although I doubt Marvel will really go for that. My other choice is Antoine Fuqua (he directed Training Day) he's hit or miss but I like some of his work

As for cast...
Aldis Hodge= T'Challa/Black Panter


Denzel Washington=T'Chaka 1) I dont think that, currently, Marvel could get Denzel 2) But if they do I probably wouldnt kill him off in the first act. Probably not until the end of the 2nd. Maybe have him kidnapped by Klaw


Vincent Cassel= Klaw. He'll need a huge costume redesign. Maybe have him working for AIM (that'd actually be really cool since Iron Man 3 has AIM) or Hydra


Jessica Lucas=Monica Lynne. As I said earlier, I'd reimagine her as something other than just a singer. Probably some kind of government agent, like CIA or something (not SHIELD though)


John Gallanger Jr=Everett K Ross. I'd liken him to Ryan Reynolds' character is Safe House...but not as trained in fighting


Danny Glover= N'Gassi


Adewale Akinnuoye-Agbaje= Zuri


Some different story ideas:
-Make it like a Bond, Mission Impossible spy movie. Different locations around the world, cool gadgets, tuxedos, all that good stuff
-Cameo from Captain America
-I'd have Monica and Everett going to Wakanda for another attempt from the US of diplomacy with Wakanda. They end up being in the wrong place at the wrong time and they end up getting swept up in the plot to stop Klaw
-I'd say have Klaw (arms dealer, terrorist) building some sort of device that needs different things from around the world, including vibranium (why he returns to Wakanda). He gets the vibranium after attacking Wakanda in the first act, which leads to T'Challa following him around the world
-T'Challa shouldnt have a lot of "fish out of water" stuff like in Thor.
-There has to be a free running chase. There has to be.
-For a team I'd say have: T'Challa, Zuri, Everett, and Monica chasing Klaw
-For locations, I think: Wakanda, Milan (Italy), Barcelona (Spain), NYC (I was debating between NYC or DC but I settled on DC because of the UN building)
-If by some miracle, BP ends up being a phase II film I would end it by setting up that T'challa will periodically spending time from Wakanda. Which sets him up for The Avengers 2

Just commenting on your stuff, in case someone wants a less sociopsychological conversation. Fuqua is a great choice, but he needs a strong script to start from. I wish I knew directors to give a lot more options/ideas, but Fuqua seems solid.

The casting is very good, the only problem I would point out is that because they're all much smaller names, it inspires the idea of a lower-budget movie. Of course, that always has the potential to be awesome if they get 'lost' in the parts, but while BP is an awesome concept, if Thor or Hulk can't be sold purely on their own merits, I don't think BP can either. But the actual quality of the casting is great. If I were to step in as the proverbial marketing-minded producer, I would suggest upgrades for the parts of Ross, Monica Lynne and Klaw, though the tone of the casting is spot on.

Storywise, the traveling has grown on me, but I wouldn't use two European locations. I think an Asian location would be a nice switch up and India is pretty easy to fake, honestly. While the jet setting idea is good, and a great way to show it's not just a black thing, I think using more than one Tuxedo scene would be pushing it too far from spy territory. He's a superhero, the vast majority of his action scenes should be in his superhero costume, and there's something kinda cool, at least to me, about showing up in African traditional clothing at a big chateau-type soiree. But overall, Klaw leaving Wakanda makes a lot of sense, and you can save the Wakanda being taken over type storyline for the sequel (and then Wakanda at War for the three-quel). Very nice.

I like Lynne as CIA, especially if Ross is just state department, and Lynne is posing as an ordinary diplomat when in fact she's there to help protect Ross and get close to panther, but then he finds her out... adds a cool level to her. Then the singing thing can just be a moment that deepens her character. She could be a love interest that actually works as a character in her own right! Anything's possible!

I also agree, a free running scene is a must. It's gotta be flyer than the one in Casino Royale, so it can't be man vs man, it's gotta be like, man vs helicopter with multiple people involved or some craziness like that.

[DrCosmic]

Originally Posted by Spider - Man

B has a special way of expressing his pride through song, more specifically in rap-style and tends to use "Bakayarō! Konoyarō !" (「バカヤロー!コノヤロー!) when referring or speaking to others. He will even write his rhymes in the middle of a fight, or during an important meeting, even if they are no good, which is usually the case. This sometimes causes the people around him to become greatly annoyed by him. B doesn't respect anyone who would make fun of rap or his lyrics.

I googled 'naruto+racism' and this is what came back - he's a rapper. Really? He sonds like a totally cool character who is treated with respect and honor but because they made him a rapper, it's racist? I hate this term but it fits: weak sauce. And another fiene example of finding racism where I argue none exists.

There's a reason you get hits when you google 'naruto+racism.' It's not because he's a rapper, it's because he's irrationally obsessed with and defined by rapping, a trait which is never portrayed as positive. The article seems exceptionally clear to me that he is not respected, but greatly annoying even in the way he demands respect, but that may be because I have seen the show, and can certify that he is not, in fact, a totally cool respected character. The character is nothing more than a stereotype (and a powerset), in the tradition of a minstrel show. That deserves genuine criticism. This is a well known fact. The show is wildly successful anyway.

I see your point that white writers can feel caught in a catch 22, but that doesn't in anyway invalidate the claims set against them. They can genuinely be wrong two ways, that is possible. The truth is though, they can put forth the effort to learn to write black characters as diverse human beings, and many talented writers have done so and met with minimal criticism.

Certainly Storm isn't a character who is criticized for... anything, really, except marrying BP. Luke Cage is accepted as a stereotype, and while it may not make him the most interesting character, his writers aren't maligned like BP's are. To say nothing of the plentiful black television and film characters that do not meet with racial criticism. Some writers have taken the time to learn and view black cultures as something positive and interesting, and others have simply written colorblind, and have met with success in either path.

The issue with BP is that black culture is in many ways the defining aspect of his character and so maligning his character is perceived as maligning the black culture... and how can it not be, when there's nothing else about him other than being awesome and black (African specifically)? What other motivation is there to say Black Panther is difficult other than black culture being difficult? What other reason is there to not write/promote Black Panther other than one doesn't want to write/promote an African country?

Now why it's motivated, we don't know. It's some conflagration of business and familiarity and subconscious prejudice, I suspect. But to say that the complaints aren't valid... or that it is typical of black characters? I'm not seeing that.

[Blackman]

Originally Posted by DrCosmic

Just commenting on your stuff, in case someone wants a less sociopsychological conversation. Fuqua is a great choice, but he needs a strong script to start from.

Yeah this stuff has kinda made the thread boring to me lol. It's important stuff to talk aobut but I'd rather talk story ideas, casting choices, etc.

I wish I knew directors to give a lot more options/ideas, but Fuqua seems solid.

The casting is very good, the only problem I would point out is that because they're all much smaller names, it inspires the idea of a lower-budget movie. Of course, that always has the potential to be awesome if they get 'lost' in the parts, but while BP is an awesome concept, if Thor or Hulk can't be sold purely on their own merits, I don't think BP can either. But the actual quality of the casting is great. If I were to step in as the proverbial marketing-minded producer, I would suggest upgrades for the parts of Ross, Monica Lynne and Klaw, though the tone of the casting is spot on.

Storywise, the traveling has grown on me, but I wouldn't use two European locations. I think an Asian location would be a nice switch up and India is pretty easy to fake, honestly. While the jet setting idea is good, and a great way to show it's not just a black thing, I think using more than one Tuxedo scene would be pushing it too far from spy territory. He's a superhero, the vast majority of his action scenes should be in his superhero costume, and there's something kinda cool, at least to me, about showing up in African traditional clothing at a big chateau-type soiree. But overall, Klaw leaving Wakanda makes a lot of sense, and you can save the Wakanda being taken over type storyline for the sequel (and then Wakanda at War for the three-quel). Very nice.

I like Lynne as CIA, especially if Ross is just state department, and Lynne is posing as an ordinary diplomat when in fact she's there to help protect Ross and get close to panther, but then he finds her out... adds a cool level to her. Then the singing thing can just be a moment that deepens her character. She could be a love interest that actually works as a character in her own right! Anything's possible!

I also agree, a free running scene is a must. It's gotta be flyer than the one in Casino Royale, so it can't be man vs man, it's gotta be like, man vs helicopter with multiple people involved or some craziness like that.

Yeah I was thinking instead of my original locations that it should be Wakanda to Cairo to Italy to Rio de Janeiro to NYC

IN terms of casting, I realize that a lot of the people I chose arent big names but I figured if they get Denzel then that would be fine. Denzel is a big BO draw and having his name attatched to BP, along with it being a MArvel film, could really help with the BO. And I actually think keeping it lower budget (but not cheap) would help a lot

Who would you cast

[Spider - Man]

Originally Posted by DrCosmic

There's a reason you get hits when you google 'naruto+racism.' It's not because he's a rapper, it's because he's irrationally obsessed with and defined by rapping, a trait which is never portrayed as positive. The article seems exceptionally clear to me that he is not respected, but greatly annoying even in the way he demands respect, but that may be because I have seen the show, and can certify that he is not, in fact, a totally cool respected character. The character is nothing more than a stereotype (and a powerset), in the tradition of a minstrel show. That deserves genuine criticism. This is a well known fact. The show is wildly successful anyway.

See how you do that? Let me enlighten you about something: being irrationally obessessed with ANYTHING is never a good thing but that doesn't allow you to twist it into being racism. Being 'defined' by rapping is never portrayd as positive? I'd say plenty of people in real life are defined by rapping without being portrayed as negative. If you did word association, I'm sure that the defining word for most rappers would be 'rapper'. How is that racist or somehow 'not portrayed as positive'? I personally find rap 'greatly annoying' but it doesn't have anything to do with race. There's the problem. A lot of people (you too, apparently) feel that if someone doesn't like something a black person does, it MUST be because of their race which just isn't the case. And I have pointed out repeatedly without any response, how can a black character be portrayed as 'black enough' to satisfy half the black comic reading population without including some black stereotype that would piss off the other half? THere is plenty of talk of this 'too black/not black enough' in the black superhero thread of which I am sure you are aware.

Originally Posted by DrCosmic

I see your point that white writers can feel caught in a catch 22, but that doesn't in anyway invalidate the claims set against them. They can genuinely be wrong two ways, that is possible. The truth is though, they can put forth the effort to learn to write black characters as diverse human beings, and many talented writers have done so and met with minimal criticism.

As I said earlier, white writers aren't obligated to write black characters and they sure as hell aren't obligated to 'put forth the effort to learn to write black characters as diverse human beings'. That has such a sound of entitlement to me. I'm sure most comic book writers don't enter the profession with the goal of being activists for any cause, black or otherwise. I don't think it is racist in the least if they don't feel like they have to burn the midnight oil trying to really 'get' what a black person wants their characters to be like. If for no other reason it isn't financially reasonable. As far as I know, not one black hero has been able to sustain a title of their own. Now you could say that this is due to writing and would probably insinuate that it is based on some sort of racist motive or at least white writers not understanding how to write a black person, but there have been black writers on BP titles whose series ended.

BUt for arguments sake, let's talk about 'diversity' among black characters in comics. T'challa is an African king, Cage is an ex-con turned PI, Mr. Terrific is a genius level intellect millionaire listed as 'third most intelligent person in th world', Rhodey (and Falcon I believe) are well-respected members of the armed forces, Storm one of the most powerful mutants worshipped as a goddess where she was from in Africa. Do those all sound the same? Is that not diversity? PLease tell me what would satisfy.

Originally Posted by DrCosmic

Certainly Storm isn't a character who is criticized for... anything, really, except marrying BP. Luke Cage is accepted as a stereotype, and while it may not make him the most interesting character, his writers aren't maligned like BP's are. To say nothing of the plentiful black television and film characters that do not meet with racial criticism. Some writers have taken the time to learn and view black cultures as something positive and interesting, and others have simply written colorblind, and have met with success in either path.

Well, mostly what I hear when a black character is written 'colorblind' is basically the 'he's just a white man with black coloered skin' type thing. I'll ask again, how can a black charatcer be written in such a way as to avoid that criticism without some form of sterotype?

Originally Posted by DrCosmic

The issue with BP is that black culture is in many ways the defining aspect of his character and so maligning his character is perceived as maligning the black culture... and how can it not be, when there's nothing else about him other than being awesome and black (African specifically)? What other motivation is there to say Black Panther is difficult other than black culture being difficult? What other reason is there to not write/promote Black Panther other than one doesn't want to write/promote an African country?

And yet in the video provided by E-man, we hear the guy complaining 'why do black character even have to have 'black' in their name. So we have one person (you) saying 'black culture' is the defining aspect of the character while another complains ablout him even having 'black' in his name. I reiterate, no wonder white writers don;t know what black readers want. Even you guys can't come to an agreement on it. When you're not part of a culture, you don't think that would make it more difficult to write, especially the culture of another country?

Originally Posted by DrCosmic

Now why it's motivated, we don't know. It's some conflagration of business and familiarity and subconscious prejudice, I suspect. But to say that the complaints aren't valid... or that it is typical of black characters? I'm not seeing that.

AS I said, if I tried my best to write a black character only to get hit with this kind of criticism, I'd say screw ya'll, find someone else. You yourself said no one wants to write BP. Wonder why?

My view is, even if someone wrote BP (or any black character) exactly the way you wanted them to be written, they still wouldn't be able to sustain a title just because there aren't enough black readers (plus however many white readers might be interested in reading them) to financially sustain such a title. This isn't racism, just simple mathematics.

If you feel that every 'failed' attempt to write a black character is at least partially motivated by 'subconscious prejudice', I'm gonna say you have a dose of that yourself.

[chamber-music]

Originally Posted by Geoffrey Thorne

As for a white writer being "worried" about blowback for writing a black character poorly, that dodge should be put to rest today because it's horse excrement.

1) I'm a black writer and I spend a good portion of my time writing white characters. people pay me lots of money to do it and I think I do it pretty well. Why? Because I just write characters. That's my job. Write people. And it would be the job of any screenwriter assigned to write the Black Panther, whatever their gender or ethnicity, to do the same. If they can't, they shouldn't claim the job title. I wonder how many gay writers out there are currently writing exclusively straight characters? How many women are writing mostly men?

This

Originally Posted by DrCosmic

Certainly Storm isn't a character who is criticized for... anything, really, except marrying BP. Luke Cage is accepted as a stereotype, and while it may not make him the most interesting character, his writers aren't maligned like BP's are. To say nothing of the plentiful black television and film characters that do not meet with racial criticism. Some writers have taken the time to learn and view black cultures as something positive and interesting, and others have simply written colorblind, and have met with success in either path.

Luke Cage isn't a stereotype though. People who say his a black sterotype haven't read enough Luke Cage comics.

He started out a blaxploitation homage character but out grew those things over the years. I think Luke is a more positive down to earth black superhero.

A guy who turned his back on crime as a teenager and tried to make a good life for himself after seeing the effects his criminal life was having on his family only to be framed by his best friend and sent to prison where he was beaten, racially abused and yet he didn't break or return to crime.

Even though he was a hero for hire he didn't collect money alot of the time if he was helping people who really needed his help.

[Spider - Man]

Originally Posted by chamber-music

This

I'll say this is valid IF you can show me where white people accuse a black writer of writing a white character 'wrong' for racist reasons. This is something black writers just don't have to deal with. So, no, it isn't horse excrement.

Originally Posted by chamber-music

Luke Cage isn't a stereotype though. People who say his a black sterotype haven't read enough Luke Cage comics.

He started out a blaxploitation homage character but out grew those things over the years. I think Luke is a more positive down to earth black superhero.

A guy who turned his back on crime as a teenager and tried to make a good life for himself after seeing the effects his criminal life was having on his family only to be framed by his best friend and sent to prison where he was beaten, racially abused and yet he didn't break or return to crime.

Even though he was a hero for hire he didn't collect money alot of the time if he was helping people who really needed his help.

See? You guys can't even agree on whether he's a stereotype or not. Some black readers look on Cage negatively (why did he have to be a convict?) and others look on him positively (he rose above his circumstances and chose to do the right thing).

ONe thing maybe someone can clear up for me: I thought blaxploitation films were both made by black people and liked by black people (Foxy Brown, Shaft, etc.) but listening to some talk on here, it seems that they are looked on negatively by black people. Can someone clear that up for me?

[ShredderX]

Originally Posted by Incrediblejeff

Very Interesting read on Black Panther and Black superhero films in general.

http://www.comicsalliance.com/2012/0...r-film-anyway/

Great Article. Even though I love Marvel, their decision to make Guardians over BP, has prompted me to move on and support independent comics created by black artists and writers featuring black heros. Can't wait for Onyxcon next month !!!

[ShredderX]

Originally Posted by Spider - Man

I'll say this is valid IF you can show me where white people accuse a black writer of writing a white character 'wrong' for racist reasons. This is something black writers just don't have to deal with. So, no, it isn't horse excrement.



See? You guys can't even agree on whether he's a stereotype or not. Some black readers look on Cage negatively (why did he have to be a convict?) and others look on him positively (he rose above his circumstances and chose to do the right thing).

ONe thing maybe someone can clear up for me: I thought blaxploitation films were both made by black people and liked by black people (Foxy Brown, Shaft, etc.) but listening to some talk on here, it seems that they are looked on negatively by black people. Can someone clear that up for me?

I'm black, and I often wondered this myself. I love movies like Sweet Sweetback's Badass song, Shaft, Black Ceaser, Three the Hard Way, etc.

I think some Black People get offended with these movies because these movies usually glorify or make the pimp, hustler, drug dealer the hero (even though the only movie I know which did this was Superfly, Black Ceaser and The Mack). Other than that, I love the genre.

[chamber-music]

The convict part is what people focus on but the whole point was he was Carl Lucas/Luke Cage is innocent.

Cage was in juvie as a teenager a few times but he never served time in an adult prison because he quit his crime by the time he was in his late teens.

Even in the comics Cage never used a weapon when he was in a gang instead he just used his fists. His gang only commited petty crime as well which in the comics they don't specify all that much other that he was a teenager, worked for the local crimelord.



Thats what sucked for Cage he had turned his life around only to get thrown in prison anyway. He had a reason for being an angry black man at the beginning.

[chamber-music]

Blaxploitation were originally made to show black heroes. They were made and financed by black people aimed at a black audience but then when stuff like Shaft got sucessful people tried to cash in and thats when the genre went downhill fast.

To some people it was black empowerment which then descended into racist stereotyping.

It mirrors Hip Hop in that way in some peoples eyes.

[ShredderX]

Originally Posted by chamber-music

Blaxploitation were originally made to show black heroes. They were made and financed by black people aimed at a black audience but then when stuff like Shaft got sucessful people tried to cash in and thats when the genre went downhill fast.

To some people it was black empowerment which then descended into racist stereotyping.

It mirrors Hip Hop in that way in some peoples eyes.

I agree 100%.

[Spider - Man]

Originally Posted by ShredderX

Great Article. Even though I love Marvel, their decision to make Guardians over BP, has prompted me to move on and support independent comics created by black artists and writers featuring black heros. Can't wait for Onyxcon next month !!!

This is the first rational, intelligent solution to this entire issue I've heard so far. Again, I wish as much as anyone else that there were more black, Asian, LAtino characters in comics. I wish they could be done in a way that would make each race of readers that they respectively represent happy. Sadly it seems that that hasn't really happened yet. I feel that it is due as I said to simple mathematics: there isn't a big enough market for these titles for a big company like Marvel or DC to justify sustaining.

You, my friend, have risen above the petty need to complain about what you dont feel you're getting from one sourse and efficiently moved on to one that will give you what you desire. IMO, complaining never leads to any real solution. I bet you would be very successful as a business entrepreneur. It's that kind of rationale based on logic instead of emotion that leads to true breakthroughs!

As to your other post, that is what always happens. To be honest, I am absolutely floored that the superhero movie genre has sustaned as long as it has with no real sign of weakening due to cheap knockoffs flooding the market.

[Spider - Man]

Originally Posted by chamber-music

The convict part is what people focus on

Why is this the case?

[ShredderX]

Originally Posted by Spider - Man

This is the first rational, intelligent solution to this entire issue I've heard so far. Again, I wish as much as anyone else that there were more black, Asian, LAtino characters in comics. I wish they could be done in a way that would make each race of readers that they respectively represent happy. Sadly it seems that that hasn't really happened yet. I feel that it is due as I said to simple mathematics: there isn't a big enough market for these titles for a big company like Marvel or DC to justify sustaining.

You, my friend, have risen above the petty need to complain about what you dont feel you're getting from one sourse and efficiently moved on to one that will give you what you desire. IMO, complaining never leads to any real solution. I bet you would be very successful as a business entrepreneur. It's that kind of rationale based on logic instead of emotion that leads to true breakthroughs!

As to your other post, that is what always happens. To be honest, I am absolutely floored that the superhero movie genre has sustaned as long as it has with no real sign of weakening due to cheap knockoffs flooding the market.

Thanks. Like I said, I still love Marvel, and will continue to buy other titles, but will start getting my black super hero fix from the independent black creators. After all, if you want authenic mexican food, you go to a mexican restaurant owned and operated by real mexicans. You don't go to Taco Bell.

[DarKush]

Spider-Man,

A few things:

-Black people are not monolithic. We don't all think the same or see the same things in the same way, which I think you can see on this thread and others on the website or others. And issues of what's positive and negative a lot of times when it comes to depictions of blacks can be boiled down to individual knowledge and tastes.

-Regarding blaxploitation, it was not completely done by blacks or for blacks. Initially some of those films might have been, but I also think some of those early films, at least ones like Shaft, were viewed by blacks, whites, and others. And Hollywood made a lot of money off of these films. But I do think the genre overall was a mixed bag. I think some blacks revered them because they had never seen black men or women as heroes, as taking charge, as fighting against corrupt or oppressive whites or blacks, etc., and were willing to swallow the negative stereotypes that went along with it. But eventually, IMO, the stereotypical stuff outweighed the positives, similar to what has become of commercial hip hop, like Chamber-Music said. But also some blacks don't mind stereotypical depictions or have internalized stereotypical images after being fed a diet of them. Also, other blacks just don't invest that much thought into the movies and take them at a surface level. While others might enjoy some of the outrageous stuff that happened in some of those films or the sometime cool aesthetics, not to mention a lot of the great music that came from some of those soundtracks. We aren't monolithic.

-I don't see what your deal is with 'complaining'. That's what almost everyone on SHH does at one point or another. Do you go into every thread and make this point that people shouldn't complain? While I do agree with ShredderX in terms of looking elsewhere if he/she is not satisfied with what they are getting from mainstream comics, I disagree with your assertion that complaining is a waste of time. Sometimes complaining does get the attention of the creators because obviously they want to put a product out there that people are going to support. So I think we should have people taking the mainstream comics to task in addition to seeking out alternatives.

-Regarding Luke Cage, perhaps people focus on the convict aspect of Cage because of the proliferation of the image of the black convict in the mass media. I can definitely relate to why some people would be tired of seeing that image being the main image projected of black males or the black experience.

I once heard a quote, which I can't remember verbatim, that said something like whites are judged by the best of their race but blacks are judged by the worst. And I think some blacks don't want that image projected onto themselves, their families, or their communities. Because I still do believe their is a tendency to lump blacks together. That's why we're talking about stop and frisk and racial profiling even though a black man sits in the White House.

Further, I do think a Luke Cage film could be a profound one if it could be tied to issues of mass incarceration and the continuing racism in the criminal justice system. But Marvel would never touch those hot button issues, and they would take his wrongful conviction as an individual case and perhaps not part of a larger issue of how blacks have been mistreated in the criminal justice system since day one on this continent. If a Luke Cage film is made I do hope they make a strong point to remember that Cage was wrongly convicted. Personally I don't have a problem with a Luke Cage film especially if they make him a three dimensional character, give him so good villains, a love interest, and have a good story. I like variety and explorations of the black experience warts and all. Though the problem has been too much of a focus on the warts.

Also, I could see why some blacks would take issue with a Luke Cage film getting put out first. Whereas you have all kinds of whites-billionaires, scientists, hot shot pilots, etc., getting the green light, the first major black character, since Blade (not counting Halle's Catwoman), is going to be an ex-con?

Why not a teacher like Black Lightning, model like Vixen, a cop like Monica Rambeau, an architect/Marine like John Stewart, or student like Static? Better yet a king like T'Challa? Despite the limited number of black characters in the mainstream comics, there's still are ones that franchises could be built around that could expand imaginations of all races to the boundlessness of black possibility.

[RockSP]

Originally Posted by Spider - Man

I reiterate, no wonder white writers don;t know what black readers want. Even you guys can't come to an agreement on it.

DarKush beat me to the punch re: blacks aren't monolithic, but in addition to that your statement reads like you think white writers who write black characters are doing it only for black readers. I'm assuming they do it because the world isn't all white, and they chose to show that. Anyone regardless of race should be able to enjoy a fictional character regardless of the race of that character. Milestone didn't make Xombi hoping only asians would read it. The new Blue Beetle isn't meant strictly for latinos.

Originally Posted by Spider - Man

I'll say this is valid IF you can show me where white people accuse a black writer of writing a white character 'wrong' for racist reasons. This is something black writers just don't have to deal with. So, no, it isn't horse excrement.

Hilarious. First, how would you know that? Just in terms of comic writers I'll take Priest, McDuffie, Hudlin, etc. at their word when they say otherwise. Hell I've seen it myself over the years on various message boards.