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Old 07-22-2012, 08:42 PM   #251
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 2

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See how you do that? Let me enlighten you about something: being irrationally obessessed with ANYTHING is never a good thing but that doesn't allow you to twist it into being racism. Being 'defined' by rapping is never portrayd as positive? I'd say plenty of people in real life are defined by rapping without being portrayed as negative. If you did word association, I'm sure that the defining word for most rappers would be 'rapper'. How is that racist or somehow 'not portrayed as positive'? I personally find rap 'greatly annoying' but it doesn't have anything to do with race. There's the problem. A lot of people (you too, apparently) feel that if someone doesn't like something a black person does, it MUST be because of their race which just isn't the case. And I have pointed out repeatedly without any response, how can a black character be portrayed as 'black enough' to satisfy half the black comic reading population without including some black stereotype that would piss off the other half? THere is plenty of talk of this 'too black/not black enough' in the black superhero thread of which I am sure you are aware.



As I said earlier, white writers aren't obligated to write black characters and they sure as hell aren't obligated to 'put forth the effort to learn to write black characters as diverse human beings'. That has such a sound of entitlement to me. I'm sure most comic book writers don't enter the profession with the goal of being activists for any cause, black or otherwise. I don't think it is racist in the least if they don't feel like they have to burn the midnight oil trying to really 'get' what a black person wants their characters to be like. If for no other reason it isn't financially reasonable. As far as I know, not one black hero has been able to sustain a title of their own. Now you could say that this is due to writing and would probably insinuate that it is based on some sort of racist motive or at least white writers not understanding how to write a black person, but there have been black writers on BP titles whose series ended.

BUt for arguments sake, let's talk about 'diversity' among black characters in comics. T'challa is an African king, Cage is an ex-con turned PI, Mr. Terrific is a genius level intellect millionaire listed as 'third most intelligent person in th world', Rhodey (and Falcon I believe) are well-respected members of the armed forces, Storm one of the most powerful mutants worshipped as a goddess where she was from in Africa. Do those all sound the same? Is that not diversity? PLease tell me what would satisfy.



Well, mostly what I hear when a black character is written 'colorblind' is basically the 'he's just a white man with black coloered skin' type thing. I'll ask again, how can a black charatcer be written in such a way as to avoid that criticism without some form of sterotype?



And yet in the video provided by E-man, we hear the guy complaining 'why do black character even have to have 'black' in their name. So we have one person (you) saying 'black culture' is the defining aspect of the character while another complains ablout him even having 'black' in his name. I reiterate, no wonder white writers don;t know what black readers want. Even you guys can't come to an agreement on it. When you're not part of a culture, you don't think that would make it more difficult to write, especially the culture of another country?



AS I said, if I tried my best to write a black character only to get hit with this kind of criticism, I'd say screw ya'll, find someone else. You yourself said no one wants to write BP. Wonder why?

My view is, even if someone wrote BP (or any black character) exactly the way you wanted them to be written, they still wouldn't be able to sustain a title just because there aren't enough black readers (plus however many white readers might be interested in reading them) to financially sustain such a title. This isn't racism, just simple mathematics.

If you feel that every 'failed' attempt to write a black character is at least partially motivated by 'subconscious prejudice', I'm gonna say you have a dose of that yourself.
Virtually everyone has some amount of subconscious prejudice. Some people who have achieved great success inter culturally, such as writers, have learned to recognize and manipulate those prejudices in order to create something other than a negative stereotype.

Regardless, you're drifting off topic. I was pointing out how Naruto is racist and saying how rapping was not portrayed as something positive, and you begin to talk about how it is portrayed as something positive outside of Naruto. Do you not also feel entitled to see characters written as three dimensional and inspiring? I understand that the writers do not actually owe me anything, and that it is my job to not support them when they do not write well, but I choose to express my expectation in this way so that we can have a discussion about it, rather than me just going to my comic shop and choosing. In that way, writers are, in fact, obliged to give fans what they want, which is why they continually try to do so, which is part of why this discussion serves a purpose.

Also, you seem to count some complaints for more than they're worth. Falcon, Rhodey, Morpheus and Olivia Pope and countless others are all written colorblind, and they are wildly popular with many people, and virtually never maligned for being written so. So where do you, or anyone else, get the idea that writing colorblind is a criticism of any note? Contrast with characters like Luke Cage, Black Panther, Storm and John Stewart who are strongly tied to race, who are not criticized for their jive talk or afro-centrism, or their blackness, in fact. So the most popular black characters prove that writing colorblind, or being defined by race is not the problem. (But should they be written colorblind, it would be inconsistent, and thus be criticized).

Even Blackface receives praise when done with understanding and respect, whether in the documentary Black/White or the comedy Tropic Thunder.

Then you have Killer B, Mr. Popo, Kiwi Black, Jar Jar Binks and others, and it becomes clear that showing blackness as a negative trait is what gets criticism, and why shouldn't it? What if Spider-Man being from New York was shown as a debilitating weakness? Fans would be in an uproar. And rightly so. That's stupid, and an insult to the millions of great people who live in New York.

And, as was said before, black people are not monolithic. A writer trying to figure out 'what black people want' as though all black people are the same problem is a kind of subconscious prejudice that inherently prevents them from writing blackness as something other than a problem.

Again, I agree that writers might feel like it's an unsolvable problem, but history shows that it is not. I agree that writers don't have an actual need to write black characters well. They can keep them as sidekicks and face-heel turns and such, and do very well for themselves. But those who want to do something great, to actually be great writers, should probably learn to not let skin color define what roles characters can fill.

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Old 07-22-2012, 09:12 PM   #252
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 2

I just got back from seeing TDKR. On one hand I'd love it if Black Panther got the same type of attention paid to Batman, although I'm realistic enough to know it won't ever happen, but one thing that I fear is that someone wants to do a half assed version of the Dark Knight trilogy if and when BP eventually gets a movie. I just hope that they don't try to simplify it by looking at the Nolan trilogy and try to cash in on what's popular. Not only are Black Panther and Batman two totally different characters, but there is no way you could do a semi "realistic" take on Black Panther like that. Wakanda on its own has so many mystical ties that can't be ignored.

And btw I really enjoyed the movie. I look forward to seeing it again when it comes out on DVD.

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Old 07-23-2012, 01:17 AM   #253
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 2

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Don't know if Priest and Stan Lee would be good in the realm of cinema, but having them around as consultants wouldn't be so bad. That way they can have input on what the character of T'Challa and Wakanda is like, but not so much influence that they take over the movie in an area where they aren't familiar.

Blomkamp might be good. I like District 9.

Cameron would be too expensive, but if they could get him on there I wonder how he would do it.
Actually I mean 'Spike' Lee,but having the other would not be bad either

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Old 07-23-2012, 01:23 AM   #254
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 2

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All I know is they better not, I repeat, better f***ing not make BP for the "urban audiences"
I seriously think they would go that route,because it cause more of an uproar.

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Old 07-23-2012, 01:36 AM   #255
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 2

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Just some ideas I have for BP

For director I don't know who I'd chose. The top 2 choices going through my head are Daniel Espinosa (he directed Safe House). He really can make some nice gritty action, although I doubt Marvel will really go for that. My other choice is Antoine Fuqua (he directed Training Day) he's hit or miss but I like some of his work

As for cast...
Aldis Hodge= T'Challa/Black Panter


Denzel Washington=T'Chaka 1) I dont think that, currently, Marvel could get Denzel 2) But if they do I probably wouldnt kill him off in the first act. Probably not until the end of the 2nd. Maybe have him kidnapped by Klaw


Vincent Cassel= Klaw. He'll need a huge costume redesign. Maybe have him working for AIM (that'd actually be really cool since Iron Man 3 has AIM) or Hydra


Jessica Lucas=Monica Lynne. As I said earlier, I'd reimagine her as something other than just a singer. Probably some kind of government agent, like CIA or something (not SHIELD though)


John Gallanger Jr=Everett K Ross. I'd liken him to Ryan Reynolds' character is Safe House...but not as trained in fighting


Danny Glover= N'Gassi


Adewale Akinnuoye-Agbaje= Zuri


Some different story ideas:
-Make it like a Bond, Mission Impossible spy movie. Different locations around the world, cool gadgets, tuxedos, all that good stuff
-Cameo from Captain America
-I'd have Monica and Everett going to Wakanda for another attempt from the US of diplomacy with Wakanda. They end up being in the wrong place at the wrong time and they end up getting swept up in the plot to stop Klaw
-I'd say have Klaw (arms dealer, terrorist) building some sort of device that needs different things from around the world, including vibranium (why he returns to Wakanda). He gets the vibranium after attacking Wakanda in the first act, which leads to T'Challa following him around the world
-T'Challa shouldnt have a lot of "fish out of water" stuff like in Thor.
-There has to be a free running chase. There has to be.
-For a team I'd say have: T'Challa, Zuri, Everett, and Monica chasing Klaw
-For locations, I think: Wakanda, Milan (Italy), Barcelona (Spain), NYC (I was debating between NYC or DC but I settled on DC because of the UN building)
-If by some miracle, BP ends up being a phase II film I would end it by setting up that T'challa will periodically spending time from Wakanda. Which sets him up for The Avengers 2

Great casting choices,especially for BP's father.

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Old 07-23-2012, 03:28 AM   #256
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 2

The basic fundamentals of Luke Cage is his a good man with terrible luck.

They forget Cage wasn't actually a poor hood rat.

His father is a doctor and his younger brother is a college student. If Cage didn't join a gang he could of been successful himself.

Before Bendis made Cage a manwhore and then had him marry Jessica Jones he had steady love intrests Dr. Claire Temple and Harmony Young (who Sabertooth put in hospital years beore he was a wolverine villain and the famous silverfox incident).

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Why is this the case?
Because it reinforces some peoples stereotypes and prejudice views of black people.

People make snap superficial judgements of characters, people, ect

Brian Azzarello's Thug Max Cage series is what people who don't usually read the character think his like.

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Old 07-23-2012, 04:23 AM   #257
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 2

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They get criticized for the offensive language which is actually one of the things that draws a lot of people to it. I doubt you can find an example of someone asking for it to be altered to better suit another racial or cultural group or to be more 'inclusive'. And no we should never stop fighting against it but I have no doubt it will always be there. As I aid earlier, at my son's school before he graduated, in the cafeteria, there were tables with black kids, tables with white kids and tables with Latino kids. There were a few exceptions but this was not because they were forced to be that way. The kids did this of their own choice. So you may think that you can show some commercials of kids all mixed together or keep 'fighting' to make it otherwise but as of right now, from what I can see, it isn't working.
Obviously I don't think that commercials that show diversity in them are going to "make it otherwise," but I also don't think it's a bad thing for companies to encourage ideas of open-mindedness, sharing, compromise, acceptance, and tolerance, even in their very small and insignificant way. And of course kids aren't forced to segregate by some law or something--it's not like this is a country with a history of doing that.

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Yeah probably still an uphill battle considering there's, you know, still only one white rapper. I'd argue there's more black representation in comics than white representation in hiphop music yet I seem to hear more complaints about the lack of black representation in comics. That seems to be a disparity to me. Do you see it otherwise?
What I don't see is the point of your argument. Because you perceive less complaining about the lack of ethnic diversity in a musical genre that only went mainstream 20 years ago, the underrepresentation or misrepresentation of minorities in comics somehow becomes unimportant, and not something to be discussed or encouraged?

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My point was that what you hear most concerning black characters is complaints. Are you saying they're all valid? Here's the challenge to the white writer writing a black character: if they include ANY black stereotype (black street vernacular, spouting Malcolm X, etc.) you hear complaints about that but if you remove all the stereotypes, you hear complaints that the character isn't 'black enough'. HOw can they win? You telling me these are valid complaints? And I gave other examples to show that I didn't think E-man's complaints were valid. My point is that where there seems to be a lack of complaints from racial/ethnic groups with more right to complain, there seems to be an over abundance of complaints about black characters that I just don't think have legitimate foundation. That is a disparity, something I thought you were against.
Yes, we were originally talking about the difference in the black voice vs. other minorities, but then you went off and quoted someone else's complaints, as if it added something to the discussion. If you want to talk about whether you think one individual's complaints were legitimate or not, that's your prerogative, but it has little to do with the lack of complaints from other minorities, or even with the amount of complaints about black comic book characters that you might find in a forum thread about a black comic book character.


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And yet if he was a black character, he would be 'getting dissed' for not being the elite in any of those things. What character HASN'T lost a loved one, had trouble with a relationships, had doubts about themselves? I'd say if Spidey has connected more, t is due the writing precedent that was set by Stan and Steve and faithfully carried on long enough to stick. I don't think if I was just starting to read Spidey today as a kid, I would feel nearly the affinity I felt for him when I first read him in the 70s.
Before Spider-Man, none of them. None of them was just the regular kid struggling with pretty much every aspect of his life. The everyman archetype for a superhero was not yet explored until Spider-Man came on the scene. While the continuity of the comics lasted a long time, his first appearance in Amazing Fantasy #15 was instantly so popular and successful that they started the series in the first place.

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Well you left off the rest of my quote which is 'at public schools today'. I wasn't aware that your school experience was going on as we speak but rather you made it sound as if it were in the past tense ('my groups of friends in high school were pretty diverse' and even above 'was not' ) but I'll admit that maybe what I see isnt the norm. Still doesn't change that it exists IN SPITE of the massive effort to make it otherwise.
Yeah, I was in high school about a decade ago. But I have worked with high school students in the past year, so I'm also aware of what it's like now. I'm not saying that segregation no longer happens in many parts of this country. But I am saying that the norm very probably has shifted over the past 40-50 years. And let me reiterate: it would be foolish to think that commercials promoting diversity is going to "make it otherwise."

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I criticize where I perceive complaining that no solution will satisfy. Again how can a black characer be portrayed as 'black enough' without any stereotype? YOu know I went and looked at some of Cosmic's examples of racism against black people in media.
So you criticize when commercials encourage diversity in their small way just because they aren't doing the job that parents and teachers are supposed to be doing? (That's what I was commenting on in the first place.)

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sigh* You know, there are even examples I have pointed to you in this very thread of the kind of stuff that'll be spouted if a BP film is made. I've pointed you to phantom x's post multiple times without any comment from you. Read the article that incrediblejeff links in his post and read some of the comments below it.
Dude. I wasn't denying the fact that there are and will be a bunch of doubts and pessimism surrounding this movie. I've already called it a gamble that will be doubted (just like every other Marvel movie that has been made and is being made). But I was saying that there would be a lot of optimism as well, especially for the fact that Marvel, not Fox or Sony or Lionsgate, owns the rights to the character. If you can't see that, please take some time to see the posts by excited fans, as well as the complaints.

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Old 07-23-2012, 01:31 PM   #258
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Spider-Man,

A few things:

-Black people are not monolithic. We don't all think the same or see the same things in the same way, which I think you can see on this thread and others on the website or others. And issues of what's positive and negative a lot of times when it comes to depictions of blacks can be boiled down to individual knowledge and tastes.
I'm not trying to argue what black is and black ain't. I think if you re-read my comments you see that I think anything BUT black people all think the same. Otherwise how could I state that some say a character is 'too black' while others argue they're 'not black enough'.

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-I don't see what your deal is with 'complaining'. That's what almost everyone on SHH does at one point or another. Do you go into every thread and make this point that people shouldn't complain? While I do agree with ShredderX in terms of looking elsewhere if he/she is not satisfied with what they are getting from mainstream comics, I disagree with your assertion that complaining is a waste of time. Sometimes complaining does get the attention of the creators because obviously they want to put a product out there that people are going to support. So I think we should have people taking the mainstream comics to task in addition to seeking out alternatives.
Well it's really two-fold. One is complaining about the things that black readers have been complaining about forever and yet nothing changes. At some point I think I'd take shredder's idea and go where the gold is. Seems a lot more satisfying and fruitful than complainign continually about things that the complaining has done nothing to fix.

Second is complaining about racist undertones when there may not even be any. And again, I have stated that if you write a character a certain way (colorblind) you have half the black audience complaining that he isn't black enough ( I was reading this a while back in the black superheroes thread) but if they tweak him to make him a little more identifiable as black, the other half accuses that he is a stereotype (I read that in that thread as well). It is the reason, IMO, that Disney is so hesitant to put out a BP film and instead go with safer options. They don't face that danger with any of the other movies they say they're releasing. I have stated it repeatedly (apparently to deaf ears) that whether it matters to black readers or not, or whether they even believe it, a big company will bend over backwards to avoid getting hit with the racist label. I have pointed out examples of people already making remarks about things that are in the comics that they better not put in the movie because it would be construed as racist. If Disney is faced with being labeled as racist either way (either for not putting out a BP film or putting one out that someone (guaranteed) will find something racist against black people in, I'd say they'd probably just take the easier option and not worry about putting out a BP film especially when there are so many safer options (and I don't mean financially safer - I know GOTG is going into new territory) where the racist label is not a risk. As I said, when someone is damned if they do and damned if they don't, they usually don't bother.

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Originally Posted by DarKush
-Regarding Luke Cage, perhaps people focus on the convict aspect of Cage because of the proliferation of the image of the black convict in the mass media. I can definitely relate to why some people would be tired of seeing that image being the main image projected of black males or the black experience.
I wonder how many black people listen to Straight Outta Compton while stating they don't like the proliferation of the image of the black convict in the mass media.

As someone said, this is only a small part (the negative, if you will) of the Luke Cage story compared to the much more positive (Cage rising above his past, making the right choices in a spot where it might be easier to be bitter and go down the wrong path) but some want to focus in on that one little negative. This is exactly the mentality that I think Marvel fears in trying to do a BP film. They could try their best to put out the best BP film they could but some hypervigilant viewers are bound to find something in the film they will claim is racist and it doesn't take a lot to fan those flames. There's a saying: 'when all you look at is race, all you see is racism'.

And as I stated before, I thought what black readers wanted was to show diversity among the black heroes. In fact of the black heroes I can think of, who else other than Cage even has a criminal past? So it's ok to have an African king, a super-genius millionaire, a high-ranking military officer, an African queen/goddess but not someone with a criminal background (even if they were framed to receive that)? What exactly is your definition of diversity?

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I once heard a quote, which I can't remember verbatim, that said something like whites are judged by the best of their race but blacks are judged by the worst. And I think some blacks don't want that image projected onto themselves, their families, or their communities. Because I still do believe their is a tendency to lump blacks together. That's why we're talking about stop and frisk and racial profiling even though a black man sits in the White House.
When I think of black people I think of Michael Jordan, Herman Caine, Chris Rock off the top of my head. I can't think of who would be 'the worst' among black populace - Tiger Woods? I mean, everyone screws up sometimes and it seems he has gotten past all that and risen again so there's that.

I like what JB-the-hunter said earlier. You should go back and read it. I have black friends who tell me exactly the same thing. Being black for them isn't a hassle just because they're black. They don't allow anyone to lump them together into one identity. They are individuals and they don't let themselves get angry over the silly ignorance of others. They take responsibility for everything that goes on in their lives and their actions and understand that just because everything doesn't always go the way they want it to, it isn't attributible to someone hating them. As I said if you're always looking for/at that kind of stuff, you're always going to see it.

I don't know if your remark about judging is true or not but it certainly could explain why there seems to be a push in the media to make every white male appear like a complete buffoon who can't do anything without his wife or his black associate. I think the media's ridiculous regardless and however they want to portray people racially in advertising makes no difference to me with the exception that I find it amusing how different reactions would be if the rolls were reversed.

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Originally Posted by DarKush
Further, I do think a Luke Cage film could be a profound one if it could be tied to issues of mass incarceration and the continuing racism in the criminal justice system. But Marvel would never touch those hot button issues, and they would take his wrongful conviction as an individual case and perhaps not part of a larger issue of how blacks have been mistreated in the criminal justice system since day one on this continent. If a Luke Cage film is made I do hope they make a strong point to remember that Cage was wrongly convicted. Personally I don't have a problem with a Luke Cage film especially if they make him a three dimensional character, give him so good villains, a love interest, and have a good story. I like variety and explorations of the black experience warts and all. Though the problem has been too much of a focus on the warts.
I think that would be a fantastic idea.

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Originally Posted by DarKush
Also, I could see why some blacks would take issue with a Luke Cage film getting put out first. Whereas you have all kinds of whites-billionaires, scientists, hot shot pilots, etc., getting the green light, the first major black character, since Blade (not counting Halle's Catwoman), is going to be an ex-con?
I don't think you've got anything to worry about.

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Originally Posted by DarKush
Why not a teacher like Black Lightning, model like Vixen, a cop like Monica Rambeau, an architect/Marine like John Stewart, or student like Static? Better yet a king like T'Challa? Despite the limited number of black characters in the mainstream comics, there's still are ones that franchises could be built around that could expand imaginations of all races to the boundlessness of black possibility.
I think this would be awesome! Bring 'em all on!

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Old 07-23-2012, 01:35 PM   #259
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 2

LOL, so basically you're saying it's ok to ***** about stuff you don't like, so long as it's not racial.

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Old 07-23-2012, 01:49 PM   #260
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DarKush beat me to the punch re: blacks aren't monolithic, but in addition to that your statement reads like you think white writers who write black characters are doing it only for black readers. I'm assuming they do it because the world isn't all white, and they chose to show that. Anyone regardless of race should be able to enjoy a fictional character regardless of the race of that character. Milestone didn't make Xombi hoping only asians would read it. The new Blue Beetle isn't meant strictly for latinos.
Well it seems (from what I read) black readers are the only segment of the reading population who have a problem, in general, with how white writers write black characters (and really the only vocal segment concerning how race is portrayed, period). Maybe they're not only writing for black readers but it certainly seems that the expectation is that they write black characters strictly to the satisfy (obviously, in vain)black readers. Yes, anyone should be able to enjoy a character regardless of race. It just doesn't seem to work out that way hence the long discussion about it in this and other threads.

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Hilarious. First, how would you know that? Just in terms of comic writers I'll take Priest, McDuffie, Hudlin, etc. at their word when they say otherwise. Hell I've seen it myself over the years on various message boards.
No, what's funny is I stated 'show me where' and all you respond with is 'I've seen it myself' without even giving any details. Just for kick's (I won't even ask for a reference) give me one example of a white character any of those writers wrote that a white person accused them of writing 'wrong' for racist reasons (my direct statement you were responding to) since, you know, they say otherwise and you've seen it.

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Old 07-23-2012, 02:50 PM   #261
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 2

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Yeah this stuff has kinda made the thread boring to me lol. It's important stuff to talk aobut but I'd rather talk story ideas, casting choices, etc.
Yeah, race arguments can't really go anywhere, because at the end of the day, there's nothing to say it's not coincidence except the end result, so it just goes round and round.

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Yeah I was thinking instead of my original locations that it should be Wakanda to Cairo to Italy to Rio de Janeiro to NYC

IN terms of casting, I realize that a lot of the people I chose arent big names but I figured if they get Denzel then that would be fine. Denzel is a big BO draw and having his name attatched to BP, along with it being a MArvel film, could really help with the BO. And I actually think keeping it lower budget (but not cheap) would help a lot

Who would you cast
Wakanda, Cairo (doing the Egyptian/Ancient African Uber Kingdom and Panther God/Bast connection) followed by Rio and NYC sounds great.

A lower budget could be fine, and honestly, Panther is the type that doesn't need a great deal of money in order to shine. He's a few great fight scenes, some free running and three or four gadgets away from awesomeness. What could eat up the budget is all those locales, but I don't know how well or easily some can be simulated, so... who knows?

I really like Aldis Hodge, and for an origin, and six movie deal, it seems like the 'right' way to go. Denzel would be ideal for T'Chaka, and definitely put butts in seats. I think your casting is all in the ideal direction, but say for Klaw, Sean Bean would be a bigger name European evil guy.



And I love me some Jessica Lucas, but someone like Zoe Saldana is definitely able to bring home the CIA agent in a subversive way and probably would add more "bam" to the marquee.



Ross is a bit harder, and honestly he doesn't need to, and maybe shouldn't, be a bigger name than Hodge. Also, I've never seen Gallanger in anything, so maybe he fits the bill, but I'd like to see someone who can be played more for comedy as the out-of-his-element pencil pusher. I can't think of anyone, at least, not anyone light haired and young. I may come back to this later.

But you can't really beat Glover or Triple A on any count, so, yeah, not even touching those.

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Old 07-23-2012, 03:03 PM   #262
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I just got back from seeing TDKR. On one hand I'd love it if Black Panther got the same type of attention paid to Batman, although I'm realistic enough to know it won't ever happen, but one thing that I fear is that someone wants to do a half assed version of the Dark Knight trilogy if and when BP eventually gets a movie. I just hope that they don't try to simplify it by looking at the Nolan trilogy and try to cash in on what's popular. Not only are Black Panther and Batman two totally different characters, but there is no way you could do a semi "realistic" take on Black Panther like that. Wakanda on its own has so many mystical ties that can't be ignored.

And btw I really enjoyed the movie. I look forward to seeing it again when it comes out on DVD.
I dont think we have to worry about that. Marvel's films are completely different in their tone, how their shots, stories, etc. Not to insult them, because I really enjoy them but tone wise they are "safe"

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Yeah, race arguments can't really go anywhere, because at the end of the day, there's nothing to say it's not coincidence except the end result, so it just goes round and round.



Wakanda, Cairo (doing the Egyptian/Ancient African Uber Kingdom and Panther God/Bast connection) followed by Rio and NYC sounds great.

A lower budget could be fine, and honestly, Panther is the type that doesn't need a great deal of money in order to shine. He's a few great fight scenes, some free running and three or four gadgets away from awesomeness. What could eat up the budget is all those locales, but I don't know how well or easily some can be simulated, so... who knows?

I really like Aldis Hodge, and for an origin, and six movie deal, it seems like the 'right' way to go. Denzel would be ideal for T'Chaka, and definitely put butts in seats. I think your casting is all in the ideal direction, but say for Klaw, Sean Bean would be a bigger name European evil guy.



And I love me some Jessica Lucas, but someone like Zoe Saldana is definitely able to bring home the CIA agent in a subversive way and probably would add more "bam" to the marquee.



Ross is a bit harder, and honestly he doesn't need to, and maybe shouldn't, be a bigger name than Hodge. Also, I've never seen Gallanger in anything, so maybe he fits the bill, but I'd like to see someone who can be played more for comedy as the out-of-his-element pencil pusher. I can't think of anyone, at least, not anyone light haired and young. I may come back to this later.

But you can't really beat Glover or Triple A on any count, so, yeah, not even touching those.

I like Saldana...but I just cant buy her as an action star outside of Avatar. If she bulks up sure, but it's always laughable to me when I see clips from Columbiana or The Losers where it seems that a gust of wind will blow her away.

As far as Bean for Klaw goes Bean is not a bigger name that Cassel or if he is it's not by that big of a margin. I was toying with some other ideas but i couldnt think of another actor who I'd want for Klaw.


And Gallanger actuallly fits the bill of "comedy...the out-of-his-element pencil pusher". He plays that role in the new show "The Newsroom" on HBO. That's actually why I picked him. His character on Newsroom is competent, but kinda awkward and funny like I expect Ross to be


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Old 07-23-2012, 06:35 PM   #263
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 2

I dunno... Bean's been in more and bigger movies, and is on a big popular TV show currently. Maybe not big enough to matter, but he's "That (bad) guy guy" rather than just "that guy from Ocean's Thirteen/Black Swan"

But yeah, I didn't know you were going for Monica Lynne as an action star. I definitely wouldn't put her on sidekick status. She knows how to shoot a gun and doesn't flip out when things get crazy, but beyond that, she should be outclassed by everything T'Challa deals with. A more action-oriented version might have me prefer a Naomie Harris, who's playing a perhaps too similar part in Skyfall, or alternately Rosario Dawson can kick my butt anytime she likes. Again, that's just from the idea of using names to sell the movie as opposed to letting the actors disappear into the characters, which can make for a better, cheaper, less watched film.

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Old 07-23-2012, 07:12 PM   #264
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Who ever plays Klaw has to have the "Red Skull" attitude and not be afraid to be wearing prosthetics for most of the movie.

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Old 07-23-2012, 07:46 PM   #265
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I dunno... Bean's been in more and bigger movies, and is on a big popular TV show currently. Maybe not big enough to matter, but he's "That (bad) guy guy" rather than just "that guy from Ocean's Thirteen/Black Swan"

But yeah, I didn't know you were going for Monica Lynne as an action star. I definitely wouldn't put her on sidekick status. She knows how to shoot a gun and doesn't flip out when things get crazy, but beyond that, she should be outclassed by everything T'Challa deals with. A more action-oriented version might have me prefer a Naomie Harris, who's playing a perhaps too similar part in Skyfall, or alternately Rosario Dawson can kick my butt anytime she likes. Again, that's just from the idea of using names to sell the movie as opposed to letting the actors disappear into the characters, which can make for a better, cheaper, less watched film.
Again, I don't think Bean is any bigger than Cassel. Fellowship of the Ring was the biggest movie he was in (also flashbacks in the other 2 LOTR films). He hadn't done anything else of note to the GA until Game of Thrones, which he isnt on anymore. I dont really think he's that big of a draw
Cassel other than the Ocean films hasnt been in anything huge either.

If we're arguing star power between the two it's kinda pointless because neither have that much. It's not like we're debating a big name star vs someone like Cassel or Bean.

And Naomi Harris is hardly a big name, same (to a lesser extent) for Rosario Dawson. I dont think casting them over someone like Jessica Lucas is gonna be that big of a deal for movie goers. Saldana on the other hand is something different

And I dont think that just because a blockbuster is cheaper doesnt mean it's less watched.

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Who ever plays Klaw has to have the "Red Skull" attitude and not be afraid to be wearing prosthetics for most of the movie.
Would he need a lot? I think only his hand?


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Old 07-23-2012, 10:22 PM   #266
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Would he need a lot? I think only his hand?
His entire face is transformed as seen in FF #56, after the events at the end of FF #53.

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Old 07-23-2012, 10:30 PM   #267
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i was thinking they just go with the EMH route of a normal looking guy with a cybernetic hand for Klaw

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Old 07-23-2012, 10:52 PM   #268
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i was thinking they just go with the EMH route of a normal looking guy with a cybernetic hand for Klaw
Not sure what "the EMH route" is but a "normal looking guy" sounds pretty dull - one of the things the Marvel movies have gotten right is the fact that they are not afraid to look like comic book movies.

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Old 07-23-2012, 11:23 PM   #269
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 2

I like this article even though I disagree w/some of the things he wrote.

I like this idea:

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K.I.S.S

Keep it simple stupid!

Do not…I repeat, Do not stray from the Black Panther Costume in the books. No Power Rangers helmet (Ah-la the Green Goblin ) or shinny metal claws like in the god awful second Ultimate Avengers DVD. Keep it simple. The Black panther like Batman has enough toys, weapons and paraphernalia to make James Bond Jealous. Use that as your playground to explore new ideas. Did I mention not to F@#K with the suit? Keep the full mask with matching black Vibranium weave suit and same color ( anti-metal ) claws built into his gauntlets. If you like you can add the small cape ( Not my favorite ) or other accessories from BP past. Just make sure that when we see him, we can identify him as the Black Panther right away.


http://thepeoplesmic.blogspot.com/20...w-to-turn.html

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Old 07-24-2012, 12:30 AM   #270
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sounds good to me...

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Old 07-24-2012, 02:43 AM   #271
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 2

Concern about how the Panther will be portrayed from a racial standpoint? Well, let's consider how Marvel has handled characters so far.

Nick Fury: Seems well played to me. Lying about the bloody Cap cards was just wrong, but that's just how Fury is.

Warmachine: Standard military guy. Couldn't fight or handle booze very well, what kinda soldier is that?

Storm: Well... She looked FINE. Only problem is she didn't have a scene where she could shake her booty like a rap queen. Oh well, I guess dignity is alright too.

Blade: Coolest comic character persona, atleast in the first movie.

Wilson fisk: A decent Black man just tryin to make a living and Marvel trying to make him out to be some kinda kingpin thug. That ain't right. Decent performance though.

So far the track record is fine.

Since the Panther is royalty he'll most likely get celebrity status with people constantly asking to take photos with him and chick flirting constantly. But I don't think dignitaries mingle with common folk. When British royalty comes out here there's very little contact, likewise Panther would probably be insulated.

A king fighting in the streets... Oh the shame! I think the film will be fine

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Old 07-24-2012, 10:41 AM   #272
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Am I the only one hoping that Ant-Man doesnt meet the 2014 schedule and BP is made as the 3rd 2014 film instead

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Old 07-24-2012, 11:01 AM   #273
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Am I the only one hoping that Ant-Man doesnt meet the 2014 schedule and BP is made as the 3rd 2014 film instead
You are not alone. Although, I don't give a **** either way about Ant-Man schedule (it should be an awesome movie as well). I just want a Panther movie. If Ant-Man's production failure is what gives that to us, so be it.

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Old 07-24-2012, 09:26 PM   #274
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No, what's funny is I stated 'show me where' and all you respond with is 'I've seen it myself' without even giving any details.
Actually you said "this is something black writers don't have to deal with" like you definitively know that. Which is what I find funny.

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Just for kick's (I won't even ask for a reference) give me one example of a white character any of those writers wrote that a white person accused them of writing 'wrong' for racist reasons (my direct statement you were responding to) since, you know, they say otherwise and you've seen it.
Reginald Hudlin. He was accused of making all the white people racist and evil in his first BP arc. He was also accused of making Dr. Doom a racist.

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Old 07-24-2012, 09:39 PM   #275
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Can't wait for Onyxcon next month !!!
See you there

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