EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 2

[chamber-music]

I want to see Ant-Man and Black Panther.

Marvel have not said we are only getting one or the other and Kevin Feige has said with Ant-Man they are willing to let it be their first third movie in a year film.

Black Panther not getting off the ground is down to the Marvel dragging their feet on the movie it doesn't have anything to do with release date availability. If Marvel have a great script and director with a good vision for the character ready to go they will make the space for Black Panther.

[Spider - Man]

Originally Posted by RockSP

Actually you said "this is something black writers don't have to deal with" like you definitively know that. Which is what I find funny.


Reginald Hudlin. He was accused of making all the white people racist and evil in his first BP arc. He was also accused of making Dr. Doom a racist.

For the last time, I didn't say 'writing white characters as racists'. I said, writing white characters WRONG for RACIST REASONS (not yelling, just emphasizing). Remember back when (I think it might have been during the Clone Saga fiasco) Mary Jane came in to look for Peter and she found he had webbed himself into a giant cucoon on the ceiling to hide himself away from the world and all his problems? That is Spidey written sooo wrong. But I didn't immediately say, "Let me see if a black guy wrote this because if so, he must've written him this way because he's a racist!" I actually saw a quote from a black reader that said something to the effect of 'white guys won't be happy 'til BP gets his ass whipped by every white character so white folk don't feel so emasculated.' Really? 'White folk' base their personal feelings of adequacy on how a character is portrayed in a comic with respect to their race? When I hear complaints that BP or Cage is written a certain way, there is almost always someone saying it is in some way due to racism on the writer's part. Even Cosmic says he thinks it's some 'subconscious racism'. I have never seen a black writer accused of being racist for the way they write a character. And before you respond with some 'Hudlin is a racist because he wrote Doom...' link, in the 'Hudlin+racism in comic writing' Google search I did (in response to your reply because I was unaware of the content of the Hudlin BP run) most of the links were just on Hudlin being racist, period, without any justification based on his comic book writing. My accusation is about someone who is otherwise not thought to be racist UNTIL they write a comic character wrong and then that's the first thought as to why.

[ShredderX]

Originally Posted by Blackman

Am I the only one hoping that Ant-Man doesnt meet the 2014 schedule and BP is made as the 3rd 2014 film instead

I thought I was the only one who felt like that.

[R_Hythlodeus]

Originally Posted by Blackman

Am I the only one hoping that Ant-Man doesnt meet the 2014 schedule and BP is made as the 3rd 2014 film instead

Nope. But I do hope they cancel GotG in favour of a Dr. Strange movie

[RockSP]

Originally Posted by Spider - Man

For the last time, I didn't say 'writing white characters as racists'. I said, writing white characters WRONG for RACIST REASONS (not yelling, just emphasizing)

And that's what he was accused of. He was accused of writing Dr. Doom wrong (in that particular case as being racist)...for racist reasons (because he himself is a racist and hates white people).

But really that's just the incident that came to mind. Hell anyone that ventured onto the DC message boards when McDuffie was writing JLA couldn't help but see multiple threads about McDuffie's racism. I remember one from another message board titled "Can McDuffie Write Whitey?"

I have never seen a black writer accused of being racist for the way they write a character. And before you respond with some 'Hudlin is a racist because he wrote Doom...' link, in the 'Hudlin+racism in comic writing' Google search I did (in response to your reply because I was unaware of the content of the Hudlin BP run) most of the links were just on Hudlin being racist, period, without any justification based on his comic book writing. My accusation is about someone who is otherwise not thought to be racist UNTIL they write a comic character wrong and then that's the first thought as to why.

What you don't seem to get is that traditionally all black comic writers (there haven't been that many) of mainstream comics get accused of being racist. I remember Hudlin on his message board saying how either Priest or McDuffie (or both) told him when he started writing comics to be prepared to be called a racist for whatever he does because that is what a certain vocal fanboy segment does to a writer they know is black. Priest and/or McDuffie obviously had plenty of experience with that.

[Phantom X]

I just wanna say that Marvel has already made movies with Black heroes and villains in them and the characters seemed to be written based on the motivations and relationships they had rather than racial stereotypes. There doesn't seem to be a problem.

Lotta folks have wanted to see a Black Panther movie for awhile and are scared it may be a let down. If it is life goes on.

Hey, why they have to call him the BLACK Panther!? We know he's Black! Dang it!

Hehehe. Anyways, if I were Marvel and read how racially concerned people are about BP I'd just say forget it and go with Ant-Man.

[Spider - Man]

Originally Posted by RockSP

And that's what he was accused of. He was accused of writing Dr. Doom wrong (in that particular case as being racist)...for racist reasons (because he himself is a racist and hates white people).

Well, as I've said, I see Hudlin being accused of being racist much more in a general way than as regards his comic book writing. It would be like if David Duke wrote a black character and someone said, "He's racist because he wrote this character wrong!" No, he's racist bcause he hates black people and this has been known long before he ever wrote the comic. THAT'S my point with Hudlin.

Originally Posted by RockSP

But really that's just the incident that came to mind. Hell anyone that ventured onto the DC message boards when McDuffie was writing JLA couldn't help but see multiple threads about McDuffie's racism. I remember one from another message board titled "Can McDuffie Write Whitey?"

I am a Marvel guy, never had a lot of use for DC (prpbably comes from when as a kid, all the DC characters seemed basically to have the exact same personality with no real depth to their characterization or stories) but I did watch (and have all the seasons on dvd) the JL tv series which I think Mcduffie at least was story editor if not writer for every episode. I saw nothing that could be construed as racist in the way he wrote the white characters nor in the way he wrote GL. I guess I'll have to take your word for whatever was on DC boards in the past but all I know is as of right now, I figure SHH is basically a microcosm/cross-section, what have you, of the superhero/comics/movies world and on here, though I see quite a few allusions to racism against black people with regard to the way a black character is/has been/may be presented, I have yet to see one post by someone claiming to be white about a black writer who wrote a white superhero in a way that was perceived as negative as a direct result of the writer's racism towards white people. My feling is that if it were happeneing there would be some example of it here on these boards. YOu're right though, I shouldn;t have said 'something black writers don;t have to deal with without the qualifier 'In my experience' which is considerable but even so...I am not a Star Wars 'person' but even I know only Sith speak in absolutes!

Originally Posted by RockSP

What you don't seem to get is that traditionally all black comic writers (there haven't been that many) of mainstream comics get accused of being racist. I remember Hudlin on his message board saying how either Priest or McDuffie (or both) told him when he started writing comics to be prepared to be called a racist for whatever he does because that is what a certain vocal fanboy segment does to a writer they know is black. Priest and/or McDuffie obviously had plenty of experience with that.

Again, IMO, if it were so prevalent, I would have to think there would be some evidence of that here on SHH and I have not seen it (and I've been on here in one form or another since around 2000 when it was Spider-ManHype. I will point out that there is a difference between being told to 'be prepared to be called a racist' and actually being called so.

[Project862006]

watching cloud atlas trailer David Gyasi looks like how panther should look dont know if he is a good actor tho

[RockSP]

Originally Posted by Spider - Man

Well, as I've said, I see Hudlin being accused of being racist much more in a general way than as regards his comic book writing. It would be like if David Duke wrote a black character and someone said, "He's racist because he wrote this character wrong!" No, he's racist bcause he hates black people and this has been known long before he ever wrote the comic. THAT'S my point with Hudlin.

There is no comparing Duke to Hudlin. Duke is a career racist, that is his whole shtick. Hudlin is a filmmaker, and has no history of espousing racial hatred.. The people calling him racist were doing so mostly because they didn't like how he wrote Panther and the white characters he interacted with.

Again, IMO, if it were so prevalent, I would have to think there would be some evidence of that here on SHH and I have not seen it (and I've been on here in one form or another since around 2000 when it was Spider-ManHype.

SHH isn't the only board out there, but I've seen it here too...though not recently. The mods have probably tightened up on such things over the years.

I will point out that there is a difference between being told to 'be prepared to be called a racist' and actually being called so.

Seriously, dude? They weren't saying it "just because". They were relaying their experiences.

[Phantom X]

Maybe Marvel can put the Panther rights into Sony's or Fox's hands. I'm betting either Ant-man or Namor will be the pick for an Avengers tie in. The reason I say that is because Panther is already similar to Black Widow and Captain America.

With Sony he can interact with Spidey and his villains.

With Fox he can reunite with the Fantastic Four and Dr Doom.

The Avengers wasn't as awesome as they said it was anyway, just a bunch of superhero hype.

[Blackman]

I dont see Marvel giving up the rights to Sony or Fox and I dont see Namor coming anytime soon either

And Panther is not similar to Cap or BW.

[Lightning Strykez!]

What about Morris Chestnut for T'Challa?

[Phantom X]

I hope you're right. I admit I'd rather see him with the Avengers. But if you had to choose, which company do you think would do a better job with the character?

[spideymouse]

Originally Posted by Phantom X

I hope you're right. I admit I'd rather see him with the Avengers. But if you had to choose, which company do you think would do a better job with the character?

MS all the way. I don't trust Fox or Sony with Marvel characters, even despite their recent turnarounds.

[DarKush]

My apologies for being away for so long. But since you did reply to my last post, I felt a need to respond. I'm no expert with this multiple reply thing so my replies will be in bold.

Originally Posted by Spider - Man

I'm not trying to argue what black is and black ain't. I think if you re-read my comments you see that I think anything BUT black people all think the same. Otherwise how could I state that some say a character is 'too black' while others argue they're 'not black enough'.


Well it's really two-fold. One is complaining about the things that black readers have been complaining about forever and yet nothing changes. At some point I think I'd take shredder's idea and go where the gold is. Seems a lot more satisfying and fruitful than complainign continually about things that the complaining has done nothing to fix.

Second is complaining about racist undertones when there may not even be any. And again, I have stated that if you write a character a certain way (colorblind) you have half the black audience complaining that he isn't black enough ( I was reading this a while back in the black superheroes thread) but if they tweak him to make him a little more identifiable as black, the other half accuses that he is a stereotype (I read that in that thread as well). It is the reason, IMO, that Disney is so hesitant to put out a BP film and instead go with safer options. They don't face that danger with any of the other movies they say they're releasing. I have stated it repeatedly (apparently to deaf ears) that whether it matters to black readers or not, or whether they even believe it, a big company will bend over backwards to avoid getting hit with the racist label. I have pointed out examples of people already making remarks about things that are in the comics that they better not put in the movie because it would be construed as racist. If Disney is faced with being labeled as racist either way (either for not putting out a BP film or putting one out that someone (guaranteed) will find something racist against black people in, I'd say they'd probably just take the easier option and not worry about putting out a BP film especially when there are so many safer options (and I don't mean financially safer - I know GOTG is going into new territory) where the racist label is not a risk. As I said, when someone is damned if they do and damned if they don't, they usually don't bother.

First off, I think we have to define what is 'complaining'. It seems that you take any criticism to be complaining, which by implication, is something illegitimate and unworthy of discussion and debate.

Though I agree with you that not many companies want to be labeled with the tag 'racist' I don't think that's stopping any companies or many people that are accused of being racist. FOX News is going strong, Imus has a new show, and the Bachelor has weathered the charges made against it so far, for example. Hollywood continues rolling even after annual charges about how non-diverse TV and movies are. So I don't think the charge of racism has the sting or have people cowering in fear like you seem to think. If anything I think we there have been effective counters against the charge of racism, such as the usage of the term 'playing the race card', or of blacks' or non-whites's having 'grievances', or the muddying of what racism is so that now some whites believe that blacks are racist for mentioning racism, so it's not as clear and companies or others who might be labeled racist can thrive in that ambiguity.

How can one be certain regarding racist undertones not being present in some suspect works? The history of Hollywood and mass media was built off racist depictions of people of color, its ingrained into the very DNA of the entertainment industry. So while there might or might not be racist intent on the part of some creators today, I don't think it's beyond the pale to check, critique, and question the depictions of people of color, especially when the people who are mainly devising these depictions are not people of color.

Regarding what is black enough or what isn't, why do you think that portraying characters as 'more black' would be necessarily stereotypical? I think you need to take a look at what you consider is the black normal or standard. Also what does 'colorblind' mean to you, a white person with brown skin?

I don't see a problem with depicting blacks as three-dimensional characters with a some sense of cultural awareness and knowledge of their history. I don't get why that is so hard to do. However when we have one group (white males) largely creating media representations of all groups, we have this racial/ethnic/cultural disconnect.


I wonder how many black people listen to Straight Outta Compton while stating they don't like the proliferation of the image of the black convict in the mass media.

I listen to Straight Outta Compton. But I also like to Kind of Blue. And Johnny Cash and Muddy Waters and Etta James and Donny Hathaway and Katy Perry and Norah Jones, etc. The issue is not censoring images of black criminals, but the overrepresentation of those images vis-a-vis other images.

As someone said, this is only a small part (the negative, if you will) of the Luke Cage story compared to the much more positive (Cage rising above his past, making the right choices in a spot where it might be easier to be bitter and go down the wrong path) but some want to focus in on that one little negative. This is exactly the mentality that I think Marvel fears in trying to do a BP film. They could try their best to put out the best BP film they could but some hypervigilant viewers are bound to find something in the film they will claim is racist and it doesn't take a lot to fan those flames. There's a saying: 'when all you look at is race, all you see is racism'.

I look at race because of racism, not the other way around. I know that's an idea some whites-and blacks-like to tell themselves to explain away the racial disparities that continue to plague our society. But it makes little sense when you look at history, and I think this is an ahistorical retort.

And as I stated before, I thought what black readers wanted was to show diversity among the black heroes. In fact of the black heroes I can think of, who else other than Cage even has a criminal past? So it's ok to have an African king, a super-genius millionaire, a high-ranking military officer, an African queen/goddess but not someone with a criminal background (even if they were framed to receive that)? What exactly is your definition of diversity?

I think this is an interesting reply. How many white heroes are convicts? White heroes can run the gamut, and most of it positive background depictions, yet blacks have to accept a "diversity" that plays into stereotypes of black male behavior? I don't mind Luke Cage, but I would definitely like to see other heroes get a movie before him. I want to expand the media narrative of who black people are and what they can be. Your argument would be a little easier to swallow if we just didn't have another movie season where genius white male billionaires save us all in the Avengers and Dark Knight Rises.


When I think of black people I think of Michael Jordan, Herman Caine, Chris Rock off the top of my head. I can't think of who would be 'the worst' among black populace - Tiger Woods? I mean, everyone screws up sometimes and it seems he has gotten past all that and risen again so there's that.

I like what JB-the-hunter said earlier. You should go back and read it. I have black friends who tell me exactly the same thing. Being black for them isn't a hassle just because they're black. They don't allow anyone to lump them together into one identity. They are individuals and they don't let themselves get angry over the silly ignorance of others. They take responsibility for everything that goes on in their lives and their actions and understand that just because everything doesn't always go the way they want it to, it isn't attributible to someone hating them. As I said if you're always looking for/at that kind of stuff, you're always going to see it.

I can't discount the experiences of your friends, but those are not might my experiences. For example, I was stopped by a cop for what I call "walking while black" and a group of my friends were pulled over for no other reason than we were a group of black males in a car and they were on a fishing expedition for drugs or some contraband. I don't think it does our society any good to ignore continued racial disparities, or unequal justice like mass incarceration and racial profiling. You ignore it at your own peril. I definitely think you should be vigilant about such things, you should look for such things. President Reagan said "trust but verify" and when you have a nation with a history of racial discrimination to act like even the possibility of racism is impossible to conceive just doesn't make much sense to me. It sounds more like wishful thinking than a real examination of the state of where our country is today.

I don't know if your remark about judging is true or not but it certainly could explain why there seems to be a push in the media to make every white male appear like a complete buffoon who can't do anything without his wife or his black associate. I think the media's ridiculous regardless and however they want to portray people racially in advertising makes no difference to me with the exception that I find it amusing how different reactions would be if the rolls were reversed.

I have read criticism about the depiction of white males, though generally the articles just say males, since white is considered the default in our society, and though it is generally looked at in gender rather than racial terms, I have no problem if someone looked at it through that prism. I do have my issues with the the generally undeveloped black assistants, bosses, or black best friends on TV and in movies today that exists mainly to amuse or comfort the main white characters. Sometimes the black bosses are there solely to provide an easily surmountable obstacle. Though the point you bring up about white males being depicted as buffoons highlights that not just blacks but other people of color as well do have issues with their depictions, you've just got to know where to look, like sites like Racialicious. And some whites also have criticisms, like Italian-Americans, have long had issues with the mafia depictions and now the Jersey Shore stuff.

[DarKush]

A few other things:

I don't think any writer (black, white, or otherwise) can ever depict the summation of any particular racial/ethnic group, but I do think any good writer should do their homework to try to make their depictions as authentic as possible. And to invest their characters with the requisite humanity.

And when you add the history of racism in the media that we've had in this country and in comic books, I do think it the onus is on the comic book companies and the creators to be empathetic to the concerns of the people of color they are depicting to get it as right as possible for that community but also for other communities, and not to fall back on stereotypes.

Regarding black characters, I have to wonder if some of the problems crop up because these white creators don't know many black people in their personal lives, or have asked them about their experiences in a real, nonjudgmental, non-defensive way, or done the research into the black experiences. Or tried to reach out to black people to see if what they are writing makes sense. One thing that heartened me about the Batwing series was Judd Winick talking about going to an African studies professor, in addition to doing his own research, to make sure he was depicting Batwing appropriately.

I like the fact that he made the effort, that he reached out. Now I might not like everything he's done on the book thus far, but for the most part I've enjoyed it, but the main thing is he just didn't watch the news or TV shows or movies about Africa, which are likely to be skewered, but he went to more authoritative sources. This is one way I think we can get better depictions of black characters and other characters of color from white creators. Though I think the best way is more people of color working in the comic book industry as creators, writers, artists, but mainly as editors, and other people behind the scenes.

[Captain Marvel]

I can't discount the experiences of your friends, but those are not might my experiences. For example, I was stopped by a cop for what I call "walking while black"

Is that really a common thing, though? You say it happened to you once. Is that enough to assume that it was because you were black? I was stopped by a cop while walking around, too, and I'm not black. I'm hispanic and so was the cop, so I very much doubt there was a racial element to that. It certainly wasn't because I was dressed like a criminal in any way. I had a plain red t-shirt on with black slacks and sneakers. The cop still asked me if I was affiliated with any gangs, though (I never nearly shot back that I was a member of a gang called the "Checkerboards", and our colors are red and black, but I kept my mouth shut :P). Point is, if it happened to you repeatedly then you'd have a point. But once is hardly cause to assume that it was racial profiling.

[DarKush]

^
For one, why does it have to happen more than once for it to be real to you? The white cop who stopped me said he was looking a guy who stole a TV. I had a small bag with some CDs I had just purchased. I was wearing a black shirt and some jeans. No gang colors I'm aware of. Why else did he stop me? What else might make me look suspicious to him but that I was a black male.

Two, I was looking at my experiences in light of other experiences shared by many black and brown people in how too many have dealt with by the police. Just because a police officer shares your racial/ethnic background doesn't mean that they can't single you out because of said background. If anything, I wonder if minority cops aren't under pressure to appear to give 'non-preferential' treatment to minorities, so they might be more zealous. You also ignored that when I mentioned being pulled over by the cops in a car.

I would advise you to look into stop and frisk laws and racial profiling in general.

[ThePowerCosmic]

Originally Posted by Blackman

Am I the only one hoping that Ant-Man doesnt meet the 2014 schedule and BP is made as the 3rd 2014 film instead

Nope, that would be fantastic. I'm pretty excited for the Ant-Man movie, but a Panther movie would have me way more excited.

[ThePowerCosmic]

Originally Posted by R_Hythlodeus

Nope. But I do hope they cancel GotG in favour of a Dr. Strange movie

That's not gonna happen. GOTG seems like it's ready to go.

[Captain Marvel]

I thought you said it was your friends who got pulled over, not you. Still, getting stopped by a cop once while walking is hardly something to get bent out of shape over. Why did he stop you? I don't know. Why was I stopped? Who cares. It's hardly a life-altering event.

As for Black Panther and Ant-Man, I doubt that'd happen. They're only making two movies per year but they're willing to make an exception for Ant-Man if Wright gets it done in time. More than that, they're not actively working on Black Panther as they are on Ant-Man, so would a Black Panther rushed out the door really be something people want to see? The last thing we need is for them to say "Crap, Ant-Man's not going to make it, so let's churn out a Black Panther movie to fill the slot we had planned for it."

And they're definitely not going to cancel Guardians of the Galaxy in favor of Dr. Strange. As above, they appear to be actively working on the former, not the latter. Moreover, Guardians of the Galaxy appears to fit into their plans for Phase 2, what with Thanos and all. Dr. Strange, on the other hand, doesn't fit into those plans at all. Dr. Strange would be a nice addition down the road, but not at the expense of advancing the Thanos plotline.

[Phantom X]

Originally Posted by DarKush

^
For one, why does it have to happen more than once for it to be real to you? The white cop who stopped me said he was looking a guy who stole a TV. I had a small bag with some CDs I had just purchased. I was wearing a black shirt and some jeans. No gang colors I'm aware of. Why else did he stop me? What else might make me look suspicious to him but that I was a black male.

Two, I was looking at my experiences in light of other experiences shared by many black and brown people in how too many have dealt with by the police. Just because a police officer shares your racial/ethnic background doesn't mean that they can't single you out because of said background. If anything, I wonder if minority cops aren't under pressure to appear to give 'non-preferential' treatment to minorities, so they might be more zealous. You also ignored that when I mentioned being pulled over by the cops in a car.

I would advise you to look into stop and frisk laws and racial profiling in general.

When I went to see the Avengers I thought Sam Jackson's character was well depicted and I think the Panther would be handled well also. It's easy to see how messed up and creepy the real world is but it's nice to go to a movie and just forget about it for awhile.

People can make a point to treat others with compassion and respect regardless of being in a world of creeps. The main thing, I think, is to hold ourselves to a higher standard, and if there are things we can do to make the world a better place for everyone then there's our path.

I don't want to go to the Panther movie (if it happens) and see T'challa pulled over and asked about a stolen TV set, just want to see him save the world. I can deal with reality, or try to anyways, once the movie is over.

[ThePowerCosmic]

For Phase 3 I fully expect Black Panther and Dr. Strange movies.

[Captain Marvel]

Originally Posted by ThePowerCosmic

For Phase 3 I fully expect Black Panther and Dr. Strange movies.

Definitely. I really, really want to see Marvel get back the rights to Ghost Rider so that the Dr. Strange movie can be the start of setting up a Midnight Sons movie with Dr. Strange, Ghost Rider, and Blade (And their coming together should be a mystical occurence, not a team founded by SHIELD. That'd be stupid).

I was also thinking that it might be worthwhile to research real world African cultures which existed in the parts of Africa where Wakanda is supposed to be located prior to the arrival of Europeans. If one wants to create a realistic and unique Wakanda then their cultural mores and style of dress would serve as a good basis for Wakanda, as Wakandan culture would be influenced by its neighbors and vice versa. Take that, throw in specific Wakandan cultural elements from the comics like the Black Panthers and worship of the Panther God, the introduction of Vibranium and the resultant technological growth from that, and extrapolate their society from there.

[Phantom X]

^ Excellent! Let's just hope it happens.