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Old 08-12-2012, 08:32 PM   #301
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 2

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Who ever plays Klaw has to have the "Red Skull" attitude and not be afraid to be wearing prosthetics for most of the movie.
Not necessarily, it really depends how they present Klaw. Instead of an energy creature made out of sound, he might simply be a dangerous psychopath with a sonic weapon. That's not out of the question, I remember Hudlin presented Klaw as just a psychopath with cybernetic enhancements, rather then an energy creature.

The energy creature aspect would cause the budget to balloon and I'm not sure how necessary it is.

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Old 08-12-2012, 08:35 PM   #302
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 2

Yeah, ethereal and/or energy creatures as villains suck. It sucked when they did it in Ang Lee's Hulk, it sucked in Fantastic Four: Rise of the Silver Surfer, and it sucked in Green Lantern. Klaw as a cyborg would be vastly preferable to that insubstantial energy creature crap.

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Old 08-12-2012, 08:49 PM   #303
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 2

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Not necessarily, it really depends how they present Klaw. Instead of an energy creature made out of sound, he might simply be a dangerous psychopath with a sonic weapon. That's not out of the question, I remember Hudlin presented Klaw as just a psychopath with cybernetic enhancements, rather then an energy creature.

The energy creature aspect would cause the budget to balloon and I'm not sure how necessary it is.
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Yeah, ethereal and/or energy creatures as villains suck. It sucked when they did it in Ang Lee's Hulk, it sucked in Fantastic Four: Rise of the Silver Surfer, and it sucked in Green Lantern. Klaw as a cyborg would be vastly preferable to that insubstantial energy creature crap.

Yeah, the idea of Klaw as an energy creature has always bored me. It even sucked in A:EMH when they did it imo. I'd rather them go the route of him being a cyborg as well.

And good points in your Panther post, Captain.

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Old 08-12-2012, 09:53 PM   #304
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 2

Keep KLAW the way he is suppose to be, made of solidified sound, when did they re-con [or re-yawn] him into a Cyborg? Boring!

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Old 08-12-2012, 10:10 PM   #305
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 2

Lame. I like the idea of him with a hand that transforms into different weapons, one of which being a sonic cannon.



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Old 08-12-2012, 10:38 PM   #306
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 2

I just find it interesting that some want to take the most unique element of Klaw's character and toss it away, and replace it with something that's pretty much been done to death in comics, movies, t.v., etc....

But I do like the Romita art above - he's still got it!

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Old 08-12-2012, 10:44 PM   #307
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 2

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And they're definitely not going to cancel Guardians of the Galaxy in favor of Dr. Strange. As above, they appear to be actively working on the former, not the latter. Moreover, Guardians of the Galaxy appears to fit into their plans for Phase 2, what with Thanos and all. Dr. Strange, on the other hand, doesn't fit into those plans at all. Dr. Strange would be a nice addition down the road, but not at the expense of advancing the Thanos plotline.
Not at the *expense* of a Thanos plotline; but Dr. Strange would certainly *complement* it. Strange was an integral part of the defeat of Thanos, and the Avengers (and humanity in general) will certainly need the kind of reality-altering firepower that The Doctor brings to this particular fight.

I wouldn't be surprised if Dr. Strange turns out to be a late addition to Phase II, releasing in Q1 2015 before Avengers 2.

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Old 08-12-2012, 11:11 PM   #308
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Eh, Dr. Strange isn't necessary at all. He certainly wasn't integral. All he added was the ability to breathe in space, and transportation, which they could get anywhere (Particularly if they have the Guardians of the Galaxy helping them out with Knowhere providing teleportation). He wasn't even involved in the initial fight, and only actually turned up when Nebula had the Infinity Gauntlet. And his entire contribution in that fight was casting a single spell to try to help Warlock grab the gauntlet off of her. That was it. That's hardly what anybody could call an integral part of the story.

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Old 08-12-2012, 11:13 PM   #309
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 2

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I just find it interesting that some want to take the most unique element of Klaw's character and toss it away, and replace it with something that's pretty much been done to death in comics, movies, t.v., etc....

But I do like the Romita art above - he's still got it!
What, the hand that transforms into different weapons? I like it because he reminds me of a 007 villain that way for some reason. Him as a being of solidified sound just seems boring to me.

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Old 08-12-2012, 11:16 PM   #310
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 2

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Not at the *expense* of a Thanos plotline; but Dr. Strange would certainly *complement* it. Strange was an integral part of the defeat of Thanos, and the Avengers (and humanity in general) will certainly need the kind of reality-altering firepower that The Doctor brings to this particular fight.

I wouldn't be surprised if Dr. Strange turns out to be a late addition to Phase II, releasing in Q1 2015 before Avengers 2.
I doubt it, Marvel seems to be doing small-scale movies with large-scale movies yearly. 2013 has IM3 as the small-scale and Thor 2 as the large-scale, while 2014 has CA2 in IM3's place and GOTG in Thor 2's place along with a possible Ant-Man movie. I can't see them releasing Dr. Strange, which would probably have a huge budget, along with The Avengers 2 in the same year.

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Old 08-12-2012, 11:22 PM   #311
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 2

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Keep KLAW the way he is suppose to be, made of solidified sound, when did they re-con [or re-yawn] him into a Cyborg? Boring!
1. It happened during the Hudlin run on Black Panther. He retconned a few things, but I don't think other writers have continued with his retcons, but I kinda like some of the things he did with Klaw.

2. What does Klaw as an energy creature add to the story of the movie, besides a big CGI fight near the of the movie? That just the budget the balloon and adds something that has not worked out well for super hero movies, as noted fights with energy creatures have been pretty lame in other super hero movies. Instead of BP fighting an energy creature, wouldn't look better and cost less to have to have BP fight a guy with a sonic weapon?

I think more practical effects and less CGI would work well for BP, it would look better and cost less. BP isn't a super well known character, so keeping the budget to a reasonable level, at least in his first movie, would be a good idea. Besides isn't it contrived that Klaw just happens to become an energy creature just in time for the climax for the film? Doesn't it highlight his scientific abilities if his powers came from devices of his own creation?

Besides comic book movies change villains all the time: was it wrong to have Sebastian Shaw work for the Nazis, have Whiplash be a Russian scientist, to have William Stryker work with the Weapon X program and to have to Joker get his look from makeup instead of from a vat of chemicals? If nothing was wrong with those changes, why would it be wrong to have Klaw not be an energy creature, that has precedent then any of those other changes in the comics. Its changing Klaw's gimmick a bit, his personality would be the same. What's the problem with that. Is there any good reason to have Klaw as an energy creature, besides the fact that's what happened to him in the 60s?

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Old 08-12-2012, 11:56 PM   #312
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 2

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1. It happened during the Hudlin run on Black Panther. He retconned a few things, but I don't think other writers have continued with his retcons, but I kinda like some of the things he did with Klaw.

2. What does Klaw as an energy creature add to the story of the movie, besides a big CGI fight near the of the movie? That just the budget the balloon and adds something that has not worked out well for super hero movies, as noted fights with energy creatures have been pretty lame in other super hero movies. Instead of BP fighting an energy creature, wouldn't look better and cost less to have to have BP fight a guy with a sonic weapon?

I think more practical effects and less CGI would work well for BP, it would look better and cost less. BP isn't a super well known character, so keeping the budget to a reasonable level, at least in his first movie, would be a good idea. Besides isn't it contrived that Klaw just happens to become an energy creature just in time for the climax for the film? Doesn't it highlight his scientific abilities if his powers came from devices of his own creation?

Besides comic book movies change villains all the time: was it wrong to have Sebastian Shaw work for the Nazis, have Whiplash be a Russian scientist, to have William Stryker work with the Weapon X program and to have to Joker get his look from makeup instead of from a vat of chemicals? If nothing was wrong with those changes, why would it be wrong to have Klaw not be an energy creature, that has precedent then any of those other changes in the comics. Its changing Klaw's gimmick a bit, his personality would be the same. What's the problem with that. Is there any good reason to have Klaw as an energy creature, besides the fact that's what happened to him in the 60s?
Why would KLAW be a CGI heavy character - he's a guy in a cool costume and prosthetic make-up - not unlike the Red Skull. I do not mind them following the FF rout, where he's human for most of the encounter, and becomes the sound being in the last act. Maybe that would satisfy both parties here?

Whiplash may have been given Russian roots, but he still had whips - not sure what Shaw's powers were in the X-Men comics but I assume they were something like in the movie, but I can not say for sure if they were true to them or not, but his being a Nazi was not who he was, just an excuse to have him in Magneto's past. So make Klaw Dutch or what ever, but do not change his core concept, otherwise call him something else.

Hey, while we are making pointless changes, why not make the Panther something other than African? Maybe because it's not who the character is?

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Old 08-12-2012, 11:59 PM   #313
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 2

Klaw's weapon attacks would be CG at the most. He doesn't need to turn into a giant sound creature or whatever, but makeup should give him kind of a creepy look as his body takes on the properties of it.

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Old 08-13-2012, 12:03 AM   #314
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 2

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Why would KLAW be a CGI heavy character - he's a guy in a cool costume and prosthetic make-up - not unlike the Red Skull. I do not mind them following the FF rout, where he's human for most of the encounter, and becomes the sound being in the last act. Maybe that would satisfy both parties here?

Whiplash may have been given Russian roots, but he still had whips - not sure what Shaw's powers were in the X-Men comics but I assume they were something like in the movie, but I can not say for sure if they were true to them or not, but his being a Nazi was not who he was, just an excuse to have him in Magneto's past. So make Klaw Dutch or what ever, but do not change his core concept, otherwise call him something else.

Hey, while we are making pointless changes, why not make the Panther something other than African? Maybe because it's not who the character is?
I wouldn't want to see him transform into the solidified soundwaves at all. Watching characters fight beings like that has always bored me, don't think it'll change anytime soon. Cool costume? Klaw's costume is one of the most hilarious that I've seen. I'd much rather they go with his human look.

Even though Klaw would be a cyborg for the movie, he would still have his sonic cannon. Same as your Whiplash statement.

The only makeup I'd want to see on Klaw are claw marks left behind from a past confrontation with T'Chaka or T'Challa, like he had in the Hudlin run.


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Old 08-13-2012, 12:24 AM   #315
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 2

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Why would KLAW be a CGI heavy character - he's a guy in a cool costume and prosthetic make-up - not unlike the Red Skull. I do not mind them following the FF rout, where he's human for most of the encounter, and becomes the sound being in the last act. Maybe that would satisfy both parties here?
Those powers would still be pretty CGI heavy and frankly it would be pretty easy to have those prosthetic look ridiculous, its way easier to change just someone's head, instead of their entire body. Frankly I really don't care for Klaw's look in the comics, so just seems to add more expense and effort to recreate something that I don't think is that great to begin with. There are better places to spend time on than trying to make Klaw look exactly like he does in the comics.

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Whiplash may have been given Russian roots, but he still had whips - not sure what Shaw's powers were in the X-Men comics but I assume they were something like in the movie, but I can not say for sure if they were true to them or not, but his being a Nazi was not who he was, just an excuse to have him in Magneto's past. So make Klaw Dutch or what ever, but do not change his core concept, otherwise call him something else.
Except this change actually happened in the comics at one point, so it is more true to character then any of those changes.

If Klaw has sonic weapons, he would still sound based powers, its just the source of his power in his weapons instead of his body. If he is using a sonic weapon. Exactly how does making him a sound creature more interesting, it seems kinda gimmicky and contrived to me. Clearly other people think the same way in this thread. Pretty contrived that Klaw can become an immortal sound creature at the drop of a hat.

Besides you can say Shaw had a very different personality in the movies then he did in the comic, doesn't that change things more then just changing the gimmick. Stryker was a preacher in the comics, that was a big character trait in the comics that wasn't carried over to the movies, but I don't see being seen as a big problem in the movies.

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Hey, while we are making pointless changes, why not make the Panther something other than African? Maybe because it's not who the character is?
Who decides what is a pointless change or not? I bet some people argued that setting up Iron Man's origin in Afghanistan instead of Vietnam was a pointless change, but that worked. Just because someone wants one change doesn't mean they want another, I can think some changes are pointless and others are not. Black Panther being African is more core to the character then Klaw being a sound creature. If Klaw was not a sound creature, so what, his personality would be the same same and he still have sound based weapons, so I don't see the big deal. Non sound creature Klaw would be less expensive and easier to work on screen.

Frankly I think some people don't except that some work in the comics, would not work very well in the movies.

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Old 08-13-2012, 12:29 AM   #316
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I wouldn't want to see him transform into the solidified soundwaves at all. Watching characters fight beings like that has always bored me, don't think it'll change anytime soon. Cool costume? Klaw's costume is one of the most hilarious that I've seen. I'd much rather they go with his human look.

Even though Klaw would be a cyborg for the movie, he would still have his sonic cannon. Same as your Whiplash statement.

The only makeup I'd want to see on Klaw are claw marks left behind from a past confrontation with T'Chaka or T'Challa, like he had in the Hudlin run.

Not sure where you've ever seen that before, ...

Again, if they follow FF52/53 he's human for most of the time, only changing to solidified sound [something I have never seen in a film] for the last act [or maybe even for his return in the next film - again like in the FF]. Just a guy running around with a sonic cannon for a hand is just not as visually interesting, but I guess it depends upon how far they take the story. If he does become the super villain KLAW, then he would need facial prosthetics to replicate Kirby's classic look.

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Old 08-13-2012, 12:36 AM   #317
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 2

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Not sure where you've ever seen that before, ...

Again, if they follow FF52/53 he's human for most of the time, only changing to solidified sound [something I have never seen in a film] for the last act [or maybe even for his return in the next film - again like in the FF]. Just a guy running around with a sonic cannon for a hand is just not as visually interesting, but I guess it depends upon how far they take the story. If he does become the super villain KLAW, then he would need facial prosthetics to replicate Kirby's classic look.
Cap Marvel's post listed the movies:

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Yeah, ethereal and/or energy creatures as villains suck. It sucked when they did it in Ang Lee's Hulk, it sucked in Fantastic Four: Rise of the Silver Surfer, and it sucked in Green Lantern. Klaw as a cyborg would be vastly preferable to that insubstantial energy creature crap.
I think a sonic cannon would be visually interesting. However, I would rather it transform to other weapons as well like I mentioned earlier. And I understand that he's human for most of FF52/53 and then turns into the sound creature, but I'd still want him to remain a man for the movie. Maybe if the fight messed up his technology and transformed his body, briefly turning him into the sound creature before he finally explodes. That would take place after the fight, though... I wouldn't have Panther fight him in that form.




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Old 08-13-2012, 12:40 AM   #318
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Frankly I think some people don't except that some work in the comics, would not work very well in the movies.
Isn't that a pretty tired excuse for random changes? I think given the Marvel films that we have had, we have seen that pretty much anything in the comics can translate to the screen - if they try.

Other studios have set the bar low before and we got things like the first FF movie, hope Marvel does not do that here.

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Old 08-13-2012, 12:48 AM   #319
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 2

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Cap Marvel's post listed the movies:



I think a sonic cannon would be visually interesting. However, I would rather it transform to other weapons as well like I mentioned earlier. And I understand that he's human for most of FF52/53 and then turns into the sound creature, but I'd still want him to remain a man for the movie. Maybe if the fight messed up his technology and transformed his body, briefly turning him into the sound creature before he finally explodes.



thanks, missed that post - and since Klaw is not like any of those it's apples and oranges - but I agree, I would not want to see that done to Klaw as I do not recall it ever being done in the comics.

Again, I am fine with his being human for the bulk, ala the FF books, but it would be nice to eventually get him to where he belongs. Just like if Zola turns up again in a Cap movie in the present, he should be in his robot body.

Not really seeing the point of his sonic cannon being a mini-transformer - THAT seems a bit contrived.

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Old 08-13-2012, 01:00 AM   #320
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Isn't that a pretty tired excuse for random changes? I think given the Marvel films that we have had, we have seen that pretty much anything in the comics can translate to the screen - if they try.

Other studios have set the bar low before and we got things like the first FF movie, hope Marvel does not do that here.
Except Marvel studios has changed tons of things in their movies, so the argument still stands. Whiplash was Russian, Red Skull was the leader of Hydra and actively rebelled against Hitler, Obadiah Stane was Tony's business partner, Jane Foster wasn't a Nurse, Tony Stark getting injured in Afghanistan, etc. Not to mention all the stuff they took from the Ultimate Universe in the movies, which went they borrowed from things besides 616 Marvel.

Getting the spirit of the work, is more important then being slavish to every detail, the movies should be faithful to the spirit of the comics, not faithful to the letter.

Besides this change did happen in the comics, so in a way, it would still be faithful to the source material. Many characters have had been given different takes by different or different incarnations in entirely. Since it did happen in the comics, its not unfaithful to the source material. That's how Hudlin presented Klaw in Black Panther 1 to 7 in 2005.

I still don't see why Klaw becoming a sound creature makes the character, you haven't come up with an argument on why that is interesting. Also I think Klaw's energy look kinda sucks and frankly it be easier for the actor to do his job if we don't bury him in makeup, just so he looks like a red and purple guy with a speedo. Its very limiting to the casting process and could prevent the best actor for the part from being hired.

I still don't see how Klaw being a sound creature makes him more interesting and how Klaw becoming a sound creature wouldn't just wouldn't be seen as contrived. Sometimes it seems way to easy to get powers in the Marvel Universe.


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Old 08-13-2012, 01:41 AM   #321
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 2

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thanks, missed that post - and since Klaw is not like any of those it's apples and oranges - but I agree, I would not want to see that done to Klaw as I do not recall it ever being done in the comics.

Again, I am fine with his being human for the bulk, ala the FF books, but it would be nice to eventually get him to where he belongs. Just like if Zola turns up again in a Cap movie in the present, he should be in his robot body.

Not really seeing the point of his sonic cannon being a mini-transformer - THAT seems a bit contrived.
I like the idea of his sonic cannon transforming because him having to carry that thing around all the time would look weird. It should be able to transform into a hand, weapons, etc. imo. Personally, I think that would be a very cool thing to see. For examples of how it would look, they're at 1:27 and 10:19 of the video.

VIDEO-CLick to Watch!:


Also, 11:22 of this one:

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If it just transformed from a hand to a sonic cannon though, I'd be fine with that. Various weapons seems better than just a sonic cannon to me, though. Because you never know what weapon Klaw's going to use next, it would add a sense of variety to the fights.

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Old 08-13-2012, 07:48 AM   #322
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 2

I like the original take of Klaw when the sonic weapon was part of his hand. Keep it that way.

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Old 08-13-2012, 09:54 AM   #323
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 2

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Getting the spirit of the work, is more important then being slavish to every detail, the movies should be faithful to the spirit of the comics, not faithful to the letter.


Haha I think I've posted that exact sentence on these boards a dozen times.

I get the feeling people just like to complain about trivial stuff

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Old 08-13-2012, 10:41 AM   #324
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 2

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I like the original take of Klaw when the sonic weapon was part of his hand. Keep it that way.
In the original take, the sonic weapon IS his hand. What if he has to use his right hand for something but can't because it's a sonic gun? I just don't like the idea of that, it would make sense if it could shift back and forth.

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Old 08-13-2012, 10:51 AM   #325
bubbadoom
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chewy View Post


Haha I think I've posted that exact sentence on these boards a dozen times.

I get the feeling people just like to complain about trivial stuff
Could not agree more - it's the fundamental things that I object to being changed.

But I guess it depends upon what you consider trivial ~

In the Fox FF movies, Dr. Doom was not a European dictator, a trivial matter, but one that screwed up his character in both movies.

What if Reed Richards could not stretch, he's still the smartest man in the world [his real power], why spend the money on this trivial detail.

Did we really need the Red Skull to look like a red skull? And digitally removing his nose, was this trivial detail worth the added expense?


I just want the best Panther movie possible, one that is as true to the concepts laid down by Stan and Jack as we can get. I hope it's safe in assuming that most around here want basically the same thing.

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